0:00

You made it weird, you made

0:02

it weird, you made it weird,

0:05

oh yeah. You made it

0:07

weird, you made it weird,

0:09

you made it weird, oh

0:11

yeah. You made it weird with Pete Holmes.

0:15

What's happening weirdos? This is a big one.

0:17

This is Anna Kendrick. I can't believe it.

0:20

She's so wonderful. She has a new movie,

0:22

which I am also in, called Woman of

0:25

the Hour. It is out this Friday on

0:28

Netflix. I've seen it twice now. It

0:30

is unbelievable. It is a

0:32

thriller. It's based on a true story

0:34

of a serial killer that was on

0:36

the game show, The Dating Game, which

0:39

is really, really interesting, really

0:41

terrifying, and fascinating. And it

0:43

is thematically a really

0:45

important movie, and a funny

0:47

movie, and a scary movie, and a thrilling movie,

0:50

and I absolutely love it, and you

0:53

need to check it out. It is

0:55

on Netflix this Friday, Woman of the

0:57

Hour. You know Anna from lots

0:59

and lots of things. I won't go into that.

1:02

We'll just get to this episode as quickly as

1:04

possible. So glad you guys are here. Brought

1:07

to you by Modern Mammals. Go to modernmammals.com if

1:09

you like hair that's clean but

1:12

doesn't look like a bale of hay. And

1:14

if you want to see me on the

1:16

road, where am I going to be? I'm

1:18

going to be in Denver. Yeah, this

1:20

weekend. This weekend I'll be in Denver at the Comedy

1:22

Works, followed by Largo

1:25

on October 29th. That's going to be

1:27

awesome. Raleigh, North Carolina,

1:29

Indianapolis, Seattle, Portland, Eugene, Oregon.

1:31

I believe that's sold out

1:33

actually. Oh, and we added

1:35

a second show at the Aladdin in Portland.

1:38

So hope you can be there for the second

1:40

show, Portland, on December 20th. And

1:43

then Phoenix, Arizona. All of those are available

1:46

on peteholmes.com. All right,

1:48

everybody. Check it out. Get

1:50

into it. Watch Woman of the Hour and enjoy

1:52

this wonderful episode. I'm going to say get into

1:55

it again. Get into it. Because

1:57

I want to get... Who cares? But I

2:00

do want to get this on the air. I

2:03

watched the movie. I deliberately watched Woman of the

2:05

Hour last night. Oh, wow. And because I have

2:07

a five-year-old, I also had to watch The End

2:09

this morning. Fair. Very fair. I woke

2:12

up at 6.30 to finish it. What was your

2:14

act break? My act break, when

2:16

I had to turn it off, unfortunately, only

2:19

because it's like a climax and it's a

2:21

great moment. It's in the police station, and

2:23

she's saying, do your job. And

2:25

I was like, I'm being pulled away by parenthood.

2:27

That's right near the end, though. You made it.

2:30

You almost made it right to the end. And

2:32

I'll also say, I started watching it with Val,

2:35

and she had to tap out. Oh,

2:37

no. No, no, no. Val's a

2:39

real softie. No, no, no, no.

2:41

That's a really,

2:44

there's two things I'd like to apologize for. One, that

2:47

I watched it in two parts, and two that I

2:49

told you that my wife can't handle

2:51

a quiet place. She can't handle any, you know.

2:53

Oh, no. That's so fine. I

2:55

think because I got to meet Val when

2:57

you came and did ADR, there

3:00

was part of me that was like, I hope Val

3:02

likes it. No, here's the good news. Are you ready?

3:04

I hope this isn't a spoiler, and if it is,

3:06

we'll edit it out. But the first thing I said

3:08

to her this morning at like 7.30 was,

3:12

Val, you can watch it. You've already seen

3:14

the worst part. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, it

3:16

definitely opens. I

3:19

decided to do kind of the, how

3:22

dare I even make the

3:24

comparison, first of all, which is, I'm

3:26

not comparing, but I wanted to do

3:28

the No Country for Old Men arc.

3:30

Of course. Where it kind of like

3:32

is the most violent thing happens up

3:34

top. And even that isn't fully explicit,

3:36

but then you kind of just can

3:38

use your imagination for the rest of

3:40

the film. No, it's brilliant. Steal from

3:42

the best. I'm not saying you stole

3:44

from the Cold Brothers, but like the

3:46

movie lives in the shadow of the

3:48

trauma of the beginning. Yes. Because the

3:50

beginning is like. The beginning is really

3:53

rough. Yeah, that's

3:55

a sociopath test. If you're

3:57

like fine, just eating milk

3:59

beds. Yeah, it's

4:01

not that kind of movie. Yeah, it's not

4:03

graphic. No, no, no. Yeah. It's,

4:06

none of it would be edited from television. It's

4:08

not a slasher movie, but it's, well, this is

4:10

what I wanted to be rolling on, is I

4:12

think it's so incredible. Thank you. I'm

4:14

not just saying that. Pete, that means a lot. I

4:17

was going to tell you, but I was like, let's

4:19

do it on the air, because we'd love to promote

4:21

the movie and promote you as a director, your first.

4:23

I mean, did she, wait, did she at least, did

4:26

she make it to your scene? We watched my scenes,

4:28

I hate to say that. Yeah,

4:30

no, of course. I was like, I think, well, I'm at the beginning, I'm

4:32

at the end, so we watched those two scenes. Wait,

4:34

Val came in to see your last scene too?

4:37

Yeah, I fast forwarded it. So I had seen,

4:39

but I hadn't already seen that scene because, was

4:42

there ADR in that scene? Yeah, I think so. Maybe?

4:45

I don't know. I don't know why I thought I had already

4:47

seen that scene. So yes, I did the actor thing of like,

4:49

well, if you're not, if you're going to leave, we're going to

4:51

watch my two scenes. And we did.

4:55

Does that say a lot about your relationship? But

4:57

it's like, oh, no, no, no, the movie's too

4:59

scary for you, but you're going to sit here

5:01

and watch these scenes of me. She wanted to.

5:03

Of course, I'm teasing. No, but I want to

5:05

say, we could, look, I have one

5:07

side about you and one side about the movie, and it's

5:09

really dealer's choice. I want you to- Let's talk about the

5:11

movie. I want you to feel seen and like, oh, I

5:13

did a really, made it weird and had fun. Well, let's

5:15

talk about the movie, because I feel like I have to

5:17

at least let you

5:19

brace yourself for the fact that I'm going

5:21

to end up talking about you

5:23

and this podcast at some point and my

5:26

experience of it. I really

5:28

want, I want,

5:30

I'm excited for that. I

5:32

want what I want to say as a fan of

5:34

this podcast. But like brace yourself, because it almost gets

5:36

creepy in places. Can't wait. There was a time that

5:38

that would have meant more to me. Isn't it fun?

5:41

I feel like this, we've been doing this podcast long

5:43

enough that my character has had a little bit of

5:45

an arc. And I'm happy to say,

5:47

as a fan of the show, that's exciting

5:49

to me, but it's not like my

5:51

lifeblood. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're

5:54

not getting like a huge dopamine hit. A

5:56

little one, but kind of like your character in

5:58

the movie. I just wanna say a couple

6:00

things up top. One, it's not just a good

6:02

movie, which it is, and it's not just a good script, which

6:05

it is. It's very well-directed.

6:07

Thank you. Val just did her first short,

6:10

and I'm very in touch, even more so,

6:12

with the agency that it directed us. Yeah, well, I'll say

6:15

that I think that's also why I was like, I hope

6:17

Val likes the movie, because she was there for ADR. She's

6:20

already mad, she's pre-mad that I told

6:22

you that she didn't watch it. But

6:24

the effectiveness of the horror at the

6:26

beginning is really a compliment to that.

6:28

Keep going. But because

6:31

you mentioned, Val

6:34

came into the booth with us, and

6:36

you were in the booth. Yeah, that's right. I couldn't hear you guys. No,

6:38

you were in the booth. Whatever, I don't know

6:40

all the terms, that's not the point. You were behind the

6:42

glass. You were behind the glass, yeah. Because

6:46

it's glass, it's glass, that's two sides. But

6:48

you mentioned that she was preparing to direct

6:50

her first thing. Oh, right,

6:52

that was before it. And so I was actually

6:54

sitting there feeling a little bit like, oh, I

6:56

have to look like I really know what I'm

6:58

doing, so that, you know.

7:00

You put on a beret. Yeah. Big cone. Emotionally,

7:03

I put on a beret, yeah. But on

7:05

set too, you were, I think

7:07

Val was starting to, well, she had written

7:09

her script, and Val's blossoming, as you know,

7:11

as a fan of the show. And it's

7:13

so fun to watch. And then I did

7:16

this movie with you, and it's your first

7:18

directing thing. There was a parallel

7:20

for me. The movie was about me that

7:22

go like, oh, interesting. Oh, right, right, right.

7:24

His wife is going in this direction, and

7:26

then here he is. And you were, there

7:28

was not an inch of, who

7:31

cares? I wasn't scanning you for nerves. I'm trying

7:33

to compliment you that you seem so confident and

7:36

assured and doing a great job. Well, that means

7:38

a lot, because I was

7:40

trying really hard. You were? It was effortful.

7:42

To seem confident and assured. Well,

7:45

I don't know. I guess the truth

7:47

is, I can't be sure at

7:49

what, yeah,

7:53

when I was kind of

7:55

performing confidence, and when

7:57

I really had confidence, I think that

7:59

there- The funny thing

8:01

was that when I would watch

8:03

the dailies back with my editor when we'd

8:05

be kind of looking for some

8:08

piece or something, I'd

8:11

kind of see myself run into the

8:13

frame and give a note and adjust

8:15

some piece of set deck. And

8:18

I really did feel like, oh, that

8:20

lady seems like she knows what she's doing. Oh, good,

8:23

good. Oh, wow. And it was like, oh, I

8:25

could tell that in that moment

8:27

and there was too much

8:29

to think about that I couldn't help but be running

8:31

on instinct. Right, right. And in those ways. You got

8:33

out of your own way. Yes, completely. Yeah, and you

8:35

just did it. But when

8:37

I would have moments, which I

8:40

certainly did, of being like,

8:42

oh, what if I'm messing this up

8:45

and that I then am kind of

8:47

covering. You

8:49

had to turn it on a little bit. Yeah, but

8:51

I tried. I know that I didn't

8:53

always succeed, but I would try to,

8:55

if I had those moments, it

8:59

was usually probably because something went a

9:01

little bit wrong and then

9:03

you'd have to adjust and try

9:06

to seem like, well, this was the plan all the

9:08

time. And that's really where

9:10

you feel like, oh, I'm not being

9:12

really honest. And I think

9:15

that people can smell that. And

9:17

then maybe even the next day,

9:21

pull the necessary

9:23

person aside and sort of say, I

9:26

felt embarrassed yesterday that those two

9:29

first setups weren't

9:32

working and we had to change the plan and go back

9:34

and I feel like I- You

9:37

mean you like repaired with them? Yeah,

9:39

yeah. That's cool. Because I guess it

9:41

was like, well, I

9:43

think where I would maybe

9:45

have the people around me lose faith is

9:47

if I didn't acknowledge, like,

9:49

oh, something was going wrong and I

9:51

was trying to pretend it wasn't, but

9:53

that's probably the worst thing I could

9:55

do. It reminds me of parenting. Val's

9:57

always saying, is all the repair. I'll

10:00

get in the car. I love that kids from

10:02

the 90s, 80s, 90s growing up, this

10:05

is not losing your shit, but me losing my shit

10:07

with Leela is I'll go, Leela, this

10:10

is not acceptable. Like I'll say that, and

10:13

then I'll have to like repair. But like, can

10:15

I say even the dad voice saying like this

10:17

is not acceptable is like, It's freaky, it's freaky.

10:20

I know, I patted

10:22

that because I'm still embarrassed that she'll

10:24

push me past the edge. Of course.

10:27

In a car screaming about something

10:29

and it's just too much and coffee does not

10:31

help with parenting by the way. Sometimes people are like, do

10:34

you want another coffee? And I'm like, I'm a dad. What

10:36

are you insane? Like if you're jacked

10:39

on caffeine, you're a worse parent for

10:41

sure. You drink when you don't have

10:43

enough stimulation and kids are just this

10:46

external constant. Imagine another brain

10:48

that wants you to solve all of its

10:50

problems and help with all of its stuff.

10:52

And you're- You're bringing their adrenaline into the

10:54

ecosystem. Your child is your

10:56

coffee, even though it's also exhausting. So

10:58

anyway, I go, that's unacceptable. And then

11:00

I feel shame, like

11:03

maybe you did about this setup example,

11:05

whether or not that's real. But then Val always says

11:07

to me, she goes, you could

11:09

even say this about life. Life is the repair. It's

11:12

not avoiding the mistake. It's not making the

11:14

mistake, it's repairing the mistake. I know that

11:16

sounds kind of basic, but like when you

11:18

need to hear that, when you said to

11:20

your daughter, this is unacceptable. And then, and

11:22

Leela does this horrible thing. She cowers even

11:24

though I'm telling you, I'm saying

11:26

it in what I think is a very flat, neutral

11:29

tone. She'll still, she's so not used

11:31

to me even correcting her, that she'll

11:33

cower like, like I'm a bear. And

11:36

I'm like, that's okay, that

11:38

happened. Now let's show her and

11:40

yourself what we do with a

11:43

moment. Of course. Humanity,

11:45

I don't even want to call

11:47

it a mistake. Like Dada's get

11:49

frustrated too, and directors make mistakes.

11:51

Did I do a good job

11:53

tying this together? No, yeah, I

11:55

mean, yeah. Well, I

11:58

suppose that I- What do you got? Well, I know,

12:00

well, yeah, I know, you can see, I'm like, oh,

12:02

there's a place, and then I'm like, ugh. But

12:05

I know, I know enough to know that this would be

12:07

the place to go there, I guess. That,

12:10

like, of course a child is gonna kind

12:12

of see you as a god, and like,

12:14

it would be unacceptable that you have flaws,

12:17

and then like, as she's getting older, like,

12:19

internalizing that like, both the self and the

12:22

other are flawed is

12:24

the most valuable thing

12:26

you could give her. Right, well, we, well, I

12:28

didn't mean to make this about

12:30

us, I am going to elegantly and gracefully steer this back

12:33

to the movie, because in fact, I

12:35

could. I'll just jump, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna

12:37

jump my own little insight, and

12:39

say, it's interesting to be a

12:42

female director on a movie that is

12:44

so much about women stepping back to

12:46

not embarrass her hurt men. Yeah, oh

12:48

my god, Pete, Pete. Well

12:52

done. Okay, wow. Yeah,

12:56

I mean, that seems to be a, I

12:58

will say it's one of those movies that's like, you

13:01

go like, oh shit. Yeah.

13:04

You know what I mean? Oh, that's a

13:06

real pitch to watch the movie. It really

13:08

makes you go, oh shit. Well, I mean.

13:12

I know exactly what you mean. It's deeply

13:14

entertaining, but like, it's also, it's saying something,

13:16

and it's saying something really important. It's

13:19

like the least AI-generated movie of all

13:21

time. I think it's very human. Oh

13:23

wow. It's also incredibly subtle. Yes. That's

13:26

why, when I say it opens with like, a shocking moment

13:28

that is the shadow in a Coen

13:30

Brothers-y sort of way that keeps you

13:32

way more intense. It also reminded me

13:34

a little bit of Silence of the

13:36

Limbs in a strange way. Like, there's

13:38

the threat of something even

13:40

more than like a

13:42

slasher movie. Completely. You're just more like,

13:45

we know what could happen, and it's

13:47

really unsettling, but it's

13:49

jumping through time. You're never bored, you're so

13:51

engaged, but it is saying something, and the

13:53

message as a guy is

13:56

that's when you're like, oh fuck.

13:59

Yeah. You're looking, and I'm

14:01

gonna put this to you, but we're

14:03

looking at the 70s, which is really

14:05

like sort of the Petri

14:07

dish that a lot of the

14:09

toxicity of our current culture was sort of at

14:11

its peak. I'm not saying it's not happening now, but

14:14

it was being grown in the lab then, and

14:17

it really, and it's brought to a

14:19

point on things like the dating game, which

14:22

it's like a great spotlight on a spotlight.

14:25

It's like double intense. But

14:27

like men and their relationship

14:29

to women, to

14:32

reduce that to one thing, would

14:34

you talk a little bit about women, the

14:38

burden on women to not upset

14:41

the king babies? Yeah, I mean, I'll say that,

14:43

yeah, I

14:46

mean, I'll say that the, it's

14:51

almost like the whole movie

14:53

is kind of an exploration of the

14:55

fawn response. There's fight, flight, freeze, fawn.

14:59

I looked at the camera because Val and

15:01

I are fawners. That was our strategy to

15:03

get through life. Absolutely. Still is, unfortunately. Yes,

15:05

and I've heard, again, this

15:07

is where I feel a little creepy, but

15:09

I've heard the two of you have conversations

15:11

about being able to get in touch

15:13

with your anger and Val having

15:16

a really hard time getting in touch

15:18

with her anger and that there's

15:21

an onus on men to maybe

15:23

control their anger, because generally speaking,

15:25

they're socialized to be more

15:29

in touch with their fight response. And

15:32

obviously women are not. And so

15:34

it gets so suppressed that some

15:36

of the kind

15:38

of conventional wisdom, mental

15:40

health world stuff about

15:43

kind of strategies

15:45

to avoid your own anger

15:47

are kind of pushing us in the wrong direction

15:51

in terms of getting toward health and

15:53

Val being more in touch with her

15:55

anger is generally a good thing

15:57

in my opinion. Yeah, of course it is. It's

16:00

related to her. creativity and it's related to direct

16:02

directing as well. I'm not saying it's anger, but

16:04

like a certain sort of decisiveness.

16:07

I know what you're saying where I,

16:09

there's an aggression to saying we're going

16:11

again. Not a bad aggression. Right? Yeah.

16:14

I know it is hard because these words have

16:17

so many meanings attached to them, like

16:20

dominance, aggression, anger, and, and

16:22

they're yeah, very negative. So I, I,

16:24

I'm struggling too to find the right

16:26

word power. I guess confidence is sort

16:28

of like can be used

16:31

to masquerade. It's taking up space, let's

16:33

say. And you know, the fond response

16:35

is almost about shrinking. And

16:40

and my character really like kind

16:42

of goes on a journey

16:46

of like

16:48

entering, like when we entered the

16:50

actual dating game, it's almost like this

16:53

fantasy world. Like we were using a

16:55

different lens set. Suddenly the production design

16:57

is like almost too colorful, like too

17:01

intense. The cuts are getting faster.

17:03

You know, everything's getting like, it's

17:06

almost like cloying like when something's too sweet,

17:10

because we know she's in danger. We

17:12

know that as she's choosing to rebel

17:14

and step into her power, she's

17:17

finally feeling good. But the viewer knows

17:19

she's getting herself closer to danger. And

17:22

that is almost the bargain. That

17:24

is the paradox is like sometimes

17:27

women and you know, marginalized people like

17:30

have to kind of shrink and fawn

17:32

to survive. And it's not as simple

17:34

as going actually assertive, just be assertive.

17:36

Like it's not that simple because that's

17:38

the danger zone. Right. And the movie

17:41

is sort of presenting that problem. I

17:43

also for those for people who aren't

17:45

familiar with it, there was a serial

17:47

killer who was on the dating game.

17:49

Yes. And this movie, Woman of the

17:52

Hour is about the

17:54

woman who went on the dating game. And I

17:56

believe he really in real life was picked. Yes.

17:58

Yes. Yeah. She really There's

18:00

no go ahead, please. Yeah, no, she was No,

18:03

let me ask another dumb question. Keep going.

18:05

No, no. Yeah, so she really picked him and they

18:08

they really had Some kind

18:11

of interaction after the show Where

18:15

they didn't end up going on this kind of

18:17

sanctioned prize Date

18:20

that the dating game gives but they you know,

18:22

they have this Interaction and

18:25

so that's sort of what the film

18:27

is kind of leading to yeah, so

18:29

what? I don't know why I

18:32

want to say this like you're not the spokesperson of all these

18:34

are big issues So I just want to let you off the

18:36

hook and try to have just a natural conversation Because

18:38

I'm asking you to speak to like male fragility

18:40

and sure and all these things and even the

18:43

confidence I mean, hey, let's

18:45

go but no that we're chatting. Yeah I

18:47

will say it is hard because again like I

18:50

love this show and I love the kind of

18:52

openness of the conversations And I I'm

18:55

I'm also aware of the way that

18:57

often when I give interviews It's like

18:59

oh it won't just exist in this

19:01

space. It'll get clipped and click baited

19:03

and stuff And so I'm trying to

19:05

put that out of my mind Because

19:07

I think that the way that I speak about the

19:09

film in other settings will probably be a little More

19:13

sound bite II I got you because when I was

19:15

I didn't have to do a ton of research because

19:17

I'm a huge fan Of yours, but I was doing

19:19

some and then I'm on YouTube and then you do

19:22

see the shorts and the sh it's a very Different

19:25

or derve, you know what I mean? It really is

19:27

like and none of them were

19:29

negative But it's really like Anna Kendrick on

19:31

this Was

19:34

gonna be ten seconds I would have been a little more

19:37

black and white about things it's not it's very inhuman Yeah,

19:39

yeah, and as even as I'm saying, oh, I would have

19:41

been a little more black and white I'm like, oh what

19:43

a bummer and who wants that? No,

19:45

I know. I don't know. It

19:48

doesn't matter It's not my job to predict where we're

19:50

headed. Here's my question I was I was

19:53

intrigued by the reality without

19:55

a spoiler if you want no spoilers

19:57

just just Turn

19:59

this off Well, I also really want to

20:01

talk about your performance and your character. And

20:04

I don't think I can do that without

20:06

spoiling. So there's some spoilers. There's

20:08

some spoilers, but I don't think this is the

20:10

sort of movie you can spoil because I was

20:12

in it and I had read it and

20:15

I watched it and I loved it. So with

20:17

that in mind, listen freely. But

20:19

I am intrigued by the idea that this woman,

20:21

your character, what's your character's name? I'm sorry. Cheryl.

20:24

Cheryl is a perfect 70s name, Cheryl. Cheryl

20:27

and her dad Dwight and I

20:29

can't think of a way. Gertrude

20:33

is perfect. She's on the

20:36

dating game and she's asking these three bachelors,

20:38

we sort of have a dumb one

20:40

for lack of a better. Who was great. Hilarious.

20:43

Really good performance. Those two guys were incredible.

20:45

The two bachelors. The second guy, yeah. I'm

20:48

carving all three of these. And they're all

20:50

relates in real life. How's that? Yeah.

20:53

Well, don't give me a second. I

20:55

have the entire acting community of Vancouver

20:57

in this film. Is that right? It's

20:59

like, there's like 40 speaking roles and

21:01

it's this tiny indie film and like.

21:04

Yeah, the credits, I watched all the credits because I

21:06

wanted to see where I was. And

21:09

I was like, oh yeah, there's eight people in

21:11

this movie. So it's like real fast. It was

21:13

really cool. That's embarrassing that I

21:15

wanted to see where I was. But it's fun.

21:17

Also, I. It's fun to be in a movie.

21:19

I felt like. I wanna see it. I didn't

21:21

know like if there were people

21:23

who were gonna get the and and the

21:26

featuring and with. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And

21:28

you know, like when I watched the credits,

21:30

I was like, oh, that's what got worked

21:32

out in the, with the agents. Like I

21:35

wasn't paying attention to that. And

21:37

Tony, see, I'm assuming

21:39

most people listening do know this,

21:41

but things like and Robert De

21:44

Niro or and introducing. Yeah. Whatever.

21:47

Those are all worked out in their context. Yeah, and

21:49

it's kind of a thing. It's a thing. Yeah.

21:52

And so my ego insists that I say,

21:54

I sincerely do not care, but it was

21:56

worked out. My agent said he's on a

21:58

card with no. no more than two other

22:01

names, something like that. It was something.

22:03

And they, I don't know. No,

22:06

no, no, not for me. You have to

22:08

say I love that for Doug Luchterham. So

22:12

anyway, I was intrigued that

22:14

you're on the show and there's this weird,

22:17

like a lot of good cinema. There's

22:20

this weird thing happening where the killer, who's

22:23

bachelor number three, who we are

22:26

legit terrified of. What

22:29

a great performance. So

22:31

much so that I'll be- I cannot say enough about Daniel

22:34

Zavatos, the actor's name, amazing. I'll

22:36

be uncomfortable, bleep that out. I'll

22:38

be uncomfortable meeting him. We're

22:41

in the process of getting a

22:43

sitter for the premiere. I'm excited to meet

22:45

him, but I'm also, I know I'll be

22:47

a little uneasy because he's so incredible. Yeah,

22:49

he's so incredible and he's so terrifying in

22:51

the movie and like instantaneously you will feel

22:53

at ease. I believe that, I believe that.

22:55

It is so warm and so generous. As

22:57

I said that, I was like, no you

22:59

won't, you'll be fine. But the

23:01

weird thing that's going on that I was interested in

23:03

your take on is so surprisingly,

23:06

but also inevitably, which is what

23:08

we want, the third bachelor, the

23:11

serial killer is the best at the game. Yes.

23:14

So the closer you get, Cheryl

23:17

gets at avoiding the danger of

23:19

dating, let's just say a sex

23:21

crazed narcissist or a dumb dumb who could hurt you

23:23

in the premiere. Yeah, those are the two other options

23:26

on the episode. And

23:28

then here's the serial killer who's the

23:30

most charming, most engaging. Talk about a

23:32

true sociopath who knows how to do

23:34

an impression. Of empathy and being evolved.

23:36

Of empathy and intelligence. And he is

23:38

intelligent. Extremely. He's intelligent. Extremely intelligent. But

23:40

like one of those, like, it's giving

23:42

me the chills just talking about it,

23:45

but one of those people that like,

23:48

it's almost like a joke, like, yeah,

23:50

I can read your plays and watch

23:52

your movies and know your physics, but

23:55

I'm just here to, I'm here for the murder.

23:57

Yeah. Like that's a true nightmare,

23:59

obviously. But

24:02

what did you make of the fact, what

24:04

did that stir up in you? That this

24:06

guy is winning the game? Yeah, well

24:09

it's complicated. I mean, a couple

24:11

people have said to me after watching the film that

24:14

their experience of watching it is

24:16

that they found themselves

24:19

starting to root for

24:21

the killer and then

24:23

feeling horrible about the fact

24:25

that they were rooting for

24:28

him and living with that

24:30

complicated feeling, which I think

24:32

is awesome, because that is

24:34

very much almost, I

24:36

don't know, in a way like an

24:39

antidote to victim blaming.

24:41

Where it's like, oh, even I as

24:43

the viewer who knows everything, I'm

24:46

finding myself drawn in by this guy.

24:51

What? Nope. Don't let me

24:53

talk too much. I just wanna say, we love people that are

24:55

good at their jobs even if their job is killing. We're

24:58

just taking, as a culture, we're taken

25:00

with anybody who's successful. Look at Dahmer.

25:02

Everyone wants Dahmer. We're like, look at

25:04

him go. And that his job, I

25:06

mean, I suppose I more saw his

25:08

job as

25:12

drawing people in. It's like a spider.

25:14

It's like, yeah, the spider's good at catching flies,

25:17

man. You don't blame the fucking fly. Right,

25:19

right. And when he, oh, that's too

25:21

much of a spoiler. But the moment

25:23

that he has with Bachelor number two,

25:25

I think is- Fantastic. Unforgettable. Yeah. There's

25:28

a lot of moments in this movie and they were

25:30

your choices without giving too much away. But Prospect Studios

25:32

right over here, also the Tiki bar right over here,

25:34

you shot a lot in this neighborhood, didn't you? Spoiler?

25:39

Are these spoilers? I love, please. Did I know these?

25:42

I love that you think that we didn't shoot

25:44

all that stuff in Canada. But

25:47

you shot the exterior of Prospect Studios. The

25:50

exterior of Prospect Studios. Which is right over here.

25:54

What, what, what? Now

25:56

I'm confused. The Tiki bar is not-

25:58

The Tiki bar. The Tiki bar. And

26:00

the Tiki Bar exterior is Canada. Okay.

26:03

And the parking lot is Canada.

26:05

That I believe, but the exterior

26:07

is Los Feliz, California. Now

26:10

I'm freaking out. Look,

26:13

I only feel a little bit dumb, but I'm okay

26:15

owning it. I flew to Vancouver to be in this

26:17

movie, and I still was like, wow, they shot me.

26:20

We did shoot four days in LA, so

26:25

now I'm going, well, what moment are...

26:28

Well, Prospect Studios is right over here, and

26:31

it's definitely where you're supposed to be. And then,

26:33

dumb, dumb, just the way that my mind works,

26:35

there's also a Tiki Bar right over there. So

26:37

I was like, it must be that Tiki Bar.

26:39

This is just how the human brain works. It's

26:41

broken. Wait, are you saying that you

26:43

think that Prospect

26:46

Studio is the studio in the movie? Or

26:50

something else? You've...

26:53

The exterior of the... We'll

26:56

cut this. I mean, surely some of this

26:58

is... No, it's not. This is a

27:00

nightmare. This is human and weird. Isn't

27:03

there an exterior that says Prospect

27:05

Studios? No. I'm

27:07

pretty sure there is, and that is the

27:09

definition of me explaining. I'm gonna drive there.

27:11

This is your movie, and I'm telling you.

27:14

I feel like I have... I

27:16

need to go to a neurologist if I... I'm

27:19

gonna go and drive past Prospect

27:21

Studios, and I might be like, oh,

27:23

oh my god, Anna, you idiot. Like

27:26

that thing. But I

27:28

don't know. I'm gonna

27:30

stop trying to convince you, because

27:33

you've seen it so many times. A

27:35

few, sure. A few times. A few a

27:37

couple times. Hundreds of

27:40

times. Hundreds. The only way I could be

27:42

right is if you've experienced some sort

27:44

of hypnosis that you've seen it so many times.

27:46

But this is a snooze. Let's

27:48

bring it back to what we were talking about. He's...

27:52

Were we still on He's the Best of the

27:54

Game, and then the disturbing quality of that? Maybe.

27:58

Katie's on. I was

28:00

gonna say Grindr, but isn't that the gay one? Yeah,

28:03

good for Katie. Katie's

28:06

pushing the boundaries of what it

28:08

can be. She's a modern woman. She's a modern woman. Sociopath,

28:11

I don't think we've talked enough about,

28:13

because we were driving around all the

28:16

great performances and stuff, the

28:18

idea that he's the best at it, and

28:21

the better you get at protecting yourself

28:23

from these guys, the more you're actually

28:25

getting towards danger, but also just as

28:27

in general, your real

28:29

life experience, how you relate it to Cheryl, perhaps,

28:33

what, this is so silly, but I really do

28:35

want you to talk about what it's like as

28:37

a woman dealing with, I'll

28:42

say for me, very fragile creatures.

28:44

We're very, very fragile. We

28:46

could have some compassion and say, oh, we've been told

28:49

we're cowboys and we're not. Well, put a pin in

28:51

compassion. We can put a pin in compassion, because that

28:53

doesn't need to be implied. No, but I wanna expand

28:55

on that thing. But

29:00

I'll say that your character comes in

29:02

pretty early in

29:05

the movie. Basically, we meet

29:07

me at an audition where I'm

29:09

dealing with some pretty overt misogyny,

29:12

and I come home to my apartment, and

29:15

this puppy dog of

29:17

a character is bouncing around, and

29:20

I'm just trying to make it through my day,

29:22

and I can't catch a break. Which is also

29:25

taking up space. Absolutely. I'm really taking up a

29:27

lot of space. I'm mansplaining to an old lady.

29:30

That's how you start. That's how we start.

29:32

I'm introduced mansplaining. Yeah, we hear Pete off

29:34

screen before we even see him. And then

29:36

I poop a shell necklace. I love that

29:38

shot the way that you see me through

29:41

the kind of blurred

29:45

silhouette of you and this old lady,

29:47

and you're just towering over this tiny

29:49

old lady going, so here's the thing

29:51

about Hollywood. She does

29:53

not give a shit. She is desperate to

29:55

leave. It's so awesome, and it's so funny.

29:57

And the cut to the lady is a laugh,

29:59

I think. I've never seen it with an

30:01

audience, but I think the cut to the

30:03

lady is a laugh. And then I follow you,

30:06

literally taking up your space. Yes, because in

30:08

a very kind

30:10

of well-meaning sweet way, you

30:14

are not really reading social

30:16

cues, and it's so

30:18

great as a bit of comic

30:20

relief, and I wasn't really sure

30:22

if the audience was gonna get on board for

30:24

a laugh so soon

30:26

after the opening scene. But

30:30

I'm so happy that it took- They seem

30:32

to need it. That

30:34

is what I kind of almost

30:37

didn't anticipate, is that not only

30:39

would they be okay with it,

30:41

they wanted it, needed it desperately.

30:43

See, I didn't even put it

30:45

together, but my character coming into

30:47

your apartment uninvited, following

30:49

you, I think the whole

30:52

movie, there are all these microcosms

30:54

of the whole movie, I think, is what's happening. It's

30:57

like, I need you, and look, I'm only talking

30:59

about me, I'm not talking about all men. And

31:01

I mean me, Pete Holmes. There

31:03

is a baby that's like, please see me,

31:05

please pick me up, please look

31:07

at me. And I don't, this is

31:09

a wounded part of me, I don't exist

31:12

if specifically a woman will look

31:15

at me. There's a

31:17

very like- You mean there's a sense

31:19

that you don't exist if she won't look at

31:21

you? If a woman won't validate me. Yes, yes,

31:23

yes, yes, yes, yes. We still see it with

31:25

cheerleaders, you know what I mean? We still see

31:28

it in psychology, like male

31:30

basketball players, they did a study, performed

31:32

better. And by the way, any

31:34

guy would tell you if there are beautiful women

31:36

watching them. I've heard that, I've

31:39

never been asked this question, but

31:41

I've heard that sometimes a director will

31:43

ask his like male star or actor,

31:46

like, do you do a little better

31:48

if there's like cute extras? Like if

31:50

there's cute background actresses around, and they

31:52

will say yes. And I

31:54

was like, whoa, what? Nobody's asked

31:56

me that and I wouldn't. Like

31:59

I would actually- I feel self-conscious if there was hotties

32:01

around. You'd freeze up. Yeah, I'd be like, get them

32:03

out of here. This is a nightmare. But

32:07

okay, okay, okay. No, I- That

32:11

was me just not knowing, I

32:13

don't even know my truth in this regard, but I

32:15

know I can see it both ways. But

32:18

I do know any degree of showing

32:20

off does kinda come

32:22

back to mating the rules. Oh, sorry,

32:24

let's not get it twisted. That is

32:27

not me saying that I'm better. That's

32:29

me saying, I need attention so goddamn

32:31

much. Are you kidding me? I'm the

32:34

lead of the film. Hi, I've been

32:36

an actress for my whole life. It's

32:39

not because I hate attention. So,

32:41

you know, I'm just saying

32:43

in this specific instance, that's not how it works for

32:45

me. When you add traditional

32:47

gender roles, male, female here, and

32:50

I'm saying, I'm admitting

32:52

that Val's watching my scenes,

32:54

Anna, it's bleeding into life.

32:57

I told you that Val didn't feel like

32:59

in the mood to watch something scary. So

33:01

we just jumped to my scenes, we watched

33:04

them and she said, good job. And of

33:06

course there's gonna be a part of you

33:08

going, mommy, did you like it? Of course.

33:10

Like, of fucking course. Look, I've

33:13

found a lot of success in owning your stuff.

33:15

I told my therapist yesterday, I told my therapist,

33:17

if you see the movie and you don't like

33:19

it, I'm probably gonna jump up a building. I

33:22

thought you were gonna say, don't tell me. Oh,

33:24

well, I mean, there's no way that I could,

33:27

because I talk about the movie in there, the

33:30

process of making it. It's your life. And

33:32

of course. So like her, I don't know,

33:34

I suppose there's a world where I might

33:36

have said, just don't watch it because I

33:38

wouldn't be. And like, I think there've actually

33:40

been times where, yeah,

33:43

not in this same way, but there

33:45

have probably been times where I've done

33:47

something like that. It's like, oh, just

33:49

don't tell me because I can't take it. Well, speaking of

33:51

my own mother, I called her once and I was like,

33:54

all you can say is great job. I literally was like,

33:56

I'm limiting that. That's all you can say. It's

33:58

like a weird game show. You can only say. You can say,

34:00

greater job. You can say job great if you wanna be weird

34:02

about it. You can only say those two

34:04

words. But Val

34:07

and I, part of the success of

34:09

our relationship is an ownership, not a

34:11

surrendering, not saying we can't improve, but

34:13

an ownership of like, I'm a look

34:15

at me, and she's not

34:17

just an ICU, and I'm not just a

34:19

look at me, but I'm predominantly a look

34:22

at me, and she has very strong ICU

34:24

qualities, and that works

34:26

for us. I knew

34:28

a- And of course, all you

34:30

can do is arm

34:32

yourself with that knowledge and be

34:34

examining it. Be conscious about it.

34:36

If we were unconsciously, if I'm

34:38

moping- Resentment, yeah. That's not what

34:40

we're doing. I've known comedians that

34:43

had to end relationships because nobody wanted to

34:45

ask them about their set. Val knows, just

34:48

say like, how was your set? But I

34:50

think she actually cares. That's like a really,

34:52

she's so great. She'll actually

34:54

say, how was your set? And I don't have to

34:56

talk about it, but it's really nice that she just

34:58

says, how was it? Yes.

35:00

It was good. And like, it's funny

35:02

because in, I don't know,

35:04

I suppose it's literally all of this that

35:07

made me, I mean, I'm sure

35:10

I've told you all of this,

35:12

that made me start

35:15

the process of looking for Terry, that's

35:18

your character's name, by telling

35:20

the casting director, like a Pete Holmes type.

35:23

Like a Pete, yeah, like I don't know, like a Pete

35:25

Holmes type. And then, the

35:27

kind of kismet story

35:29

or whatever is that, the

35:32

actor that I found who was the most

35:35

Pete Holmes type got

35:37

COVID and I said, and it was

35:39

like four, I mean, I was freaking

35:41

out. It was like four days before

35:43

we were shooting these scenes. And

35:45

I said, has anybody asked Pete

35:47

Holmes? Like, I just, I

35:50

didn't, I guess I didn't bother

35:52

asking because I just,

35:54

your schedule is busy, whatever. And it

35:56

almost seemed like, it almost

35:58

seemed like. Well,

36:01

it's so last minute, that's almost the

36:03

time we're most likely to get him

36:05

going, oh, yeah, my week's free. I'll

36:08

just do it. It'd be great. It's

36:10

like three scenes. They're important scenes, but

36:13

yeah, okay, great. And I was just

36:15

over the fucking moon about it, obviously.

36:17

But that all of this kind of,

36:19

I think, even

36:23

if people only know your work a little

36:25

bit, I think they're getting Golden Retriever Puppy.

36:28

And if they know you more, they know

36:30

all of this kind of deeper

36:33

inner work that you do. And

36:36

so I so want,

36:38

and this is like, spoilery, because I really want

36:40

to talk about it, but I, you know, so,

36:43

sorry guys. Skip forward, 90 seconds.

36:47

That you are the last person

36:50

that an audience would expect to

36:54

do something really shitty. And I

36:58

feel like, I mean, we're sort of talking about

37:00

the larger themes of the movie, but I

37:02

think that every scene, for a long

37:05

time, was like the

37:08

question in every scene and the dissonance

37:10

in every scene for my character is,

37:14

do you see me as human? Right.

37:17

And it's almost like by the end, she gets

37:19

her answer, and it's not a good answer. But

37:22

it's almost more satisfying. You at least

37:24

know what to do with that. And

37:27

it's this not knowing and feeling

37:29

it, but not being able to

37:31

name it, that's so impossible. It's

37:34

such a trap. And

37:37

like your character, you

37:40

know, kind of just wandering into

37:42

her apartment in a really kind

37:44

of harmless, but ew, that

37:47

way is like these

37:49

just micro-invasions, would

37:52

you wander into your male neighbor's apartment in

37:54

this way and just start picking up all

37:56

his stuff while he's on the phone and

37:58

not. picking up the cue of like, Terry,

38:01

I really fucking want you to leave. And

38:04

then you are being a sweet friend,

38:07

and then there's this time. But

38:09

also to what end? Yeah. When

38:12

I watched the whole movie, I was like, oh

38:14

no, I'm foreshadowing the killer. Like

38:17

me and the killer are the same.

38:19

And one of the things I wrote

38:21

down, I didn't transfer it to my

38:23

little note card here, but here it

38:25

is. I was like, our culture has

38:27

blended sex and murder and violence. That

38:30

seems to be coming through, whether or

38:32

not that was intended. But when

38:34

we say that's like a microaggression, like the

38:37

going in and then the lying to get

38:39

sex, like pretending I care about your life

38:41

to get sex and then

38:43

being a typical bad date. Well,

38:46

I think there might be something

38:48

more complicated where it is like,

38:50

well, he possesses empathy. Like, I

38:52

don't think it's as simple as

38:55

saying, oh, bad guys don't have

38:57

empathy. I think you might have

38:59

empathy and you might be interested. And then there's

39:01

a point where you're like, well,

39:03

are we gonna fuck or not? And

39:06

it's like. And his feelings are

39:08

really hurt. And the petulance that comes

39:10

through. And I mean, I remember

39:12

when we were shooting that scene, like I didn't really

39:14

know how it was gonna go. Cause I guess I

39:16

just haven't seen you do something quite like that. Neither

39:19

at high. And when we watched it,

39:21

that was like. Well, I was like, oh God,

39:23

am I not thinking of something like really obvious that

39:25

Pete's known for that I. Oh

39:27

great, great. But like that

39:30

thing, when you turn away from me

39:32

and you go, do you wanna leave?

39:34

Yeah. It's like, I feel like

39:37

I gave myself chills just now.

39:39

It's so icky. And

39:41

it's like, there's like this petulance, sure.

39:43

But I swear, like I feel it

39:45

in my body now. It's like underneath

39:48

it is really rage

39:50

and a threat. And murder. Yes, a

39:52

threat. And

39:54

maybe all that will mean for Cheryl is

39:57

that. Not literal murder

39:59

by the way. Yeah. That

40:01

every time she leaves her apartment and

40:03

she might run into him in the

40:05

hallway, that he's gonna make her feel

40:07

like dog shit. And that's

40:09

gonna be something she has to deal with

40:12

in the place that she lives. And

40:14

that's, yeah, of course it's not murder,

40:17

but like, oh god, I have to

40:19

fuck this guy now because otherwise he's

40:21

gonna make my life miserable. And

40:24

I feel like it's really, it's complicated because I'm going

40:26

like, I feel like

40:28

the reason I wanted you so

40:30

badly is because there's such a

40:33

limited window of screen time and

40:35

I wanted it to come as such

40:38

a left field thing. And now I've

40:40

ruined it for your fans specifically. But

40:42

again, I was in it, thought it

40:44

was shot in Los Angeles, read the

40:46

script and loved the movie. So I

40:48

think I really, I think this is

40:51

true of a lot of great movies.

40:53

Can you spoil There Will Be Blood?

40:56

I don't think so. I agree, I would say that. Can

40:58

you spoil No Country is what you just said. What?

41:01

Well, and like sometimes I'll tell people about the movie

41:04

and then the next day they'll go, oh, I went

41:06

online and I was reading about the real story. And

41:08

I of course feel like, oh, just

41:10

watch, just wait, just watch the movie. But I was

41:12

like, no, actually like you could

41:15

read. And also there's so much to the

41:17

story. And this is a 90 minute movie.

41:20

And also like the details are not

41:22

the point. Like we're trying to tell

41:24

a more emotionally resonant story. It's

41:27

a real film. I don't know how to, that

41:29

sounds like I didn't think it was a real

41:31

film. I'm trying to say it has nuance. It's

41:33

the medium is the message. It's the way that

41:35

the story is unfolding and the pacing. And

41:38

it's really, really well done. I

41:40

was gonna say what you're bringing up for me

41:42

is one of the more sophisticated

41:44

things about our culture I

41:46

think is that we've acknowledged that stalking

41:48

is a crime. So what I'm saying

41:50

is like there's murder in

41:52

every human culture has been like,

41:54

don't do that. There's been ritual

41:56

killing and stuff. We can acknowledge

41:58

that. I was just saying, most

42:00

people are like, that's not chill.

42:03

But then there's something, I was watching a little

42:06

bit of Baby Reindeer. I

42:08

only say that, I don't know, who

42:10

cares why? It doesn't matter. I

42:13

just think it's really cool, cool, that

42:15

we as a people, it's

42:17

like the 10th command- That we're acknowledging threat as- Even

42:20

though nothing is happening. It's like

42:22

the 10 commandments, the one that was

42:24

innovative was, don't covet your neighbor's wife,

42:27

because that happens interiorly. So the fact

42:29

that, like as a law, it

42:32

was sophisticated that it was considering that

42:34

it's wrong to do something privately. Anyway,

42:38

similarly stalking, nothing's happening.

42:40

It's two kids in the back seat going, I'm

42:42

not touching you, I'm not touching you, I'm not

42:44

touching you. But anyone that's been followed, which

42:48

that was the shot I was gonna compliment you on,

42:51

there's a lot of really brilliant shots. When she's looking

42:53

up at the sky, your cinematographer

42:55

was great, but I know you're also

42:57

calling those shots. When you're walking

42:59

right here in Los Angeles, in the studio, and

43:02

it tracks with you, and then

43:04

you see, and you're like, gah! It's

43:06

very- Cause

43:09

it's, I mean- Very cool.

43:11

Hopefully, the objective at all

43:13

times is to, how

43:15

do I create that internal experience of-

43:17

That's right. I feel like

43:20

he's there. Yeah, you're being stopped. Yeah.

43:22

What is more compelling, and I

43:24

don't say that I'm excited in being jovial, but

43:27

it's real. If you're walking down your hallway in

43:29

your apartment building, as we all have, sometimes when

43:31

I was younger, I'd pretend someone was following me. You're

43:34

getting the keys. Just to kind of

43:36

like- Shut up. Be thrilled. Yeah, just kind

43:38

of an imagination thing. Of course. And then I remember

43:40

my friend, Josh Cheney, had a joke about that. He

43:42

was like, my neighborhood's so bad, you know that game

43:44

you pretend there's a killer following you and you have

43:46

to get your keys. He's like, we do that for

43:48

real. It's something like that. But

43:51

I was like, oh, I've done that.

43:53

But there's nothing, meaning

43:55

horror, and I guess this would be a thriller. It's

43:58

not a horror movie. Yeah, that's right. But

44:00

thrills, chills can

44:02

come from something as basic as the feeling

44:06

that someone's following you. Yeah.

44:09

Because when I saw the setup

44:11

of the movie, there's a compliment

44:13

here, my prediction was, unfortunately this

44:15

guy would strangle people, resuscitate

44:18

them and then kill them again.

44:20

Which is insane. So

44:22

I'm watching it and I'm like, oh, I

44:25

see what's happening. This

44:27

woman notices he's on the show. Anna

44:30

and I'm already dreading it as I'm predicting it.

44:32

Anna's going to get killed. He's going

44:34

to bring her back and then the cops are going to come in.

44:37

But the question for me, and by the way, that is

44:39

not my pitch. That's a worst. I hate that movie. And

44:41

not what happens at all. Not what happens at all. That

44:45

is a slasher movie. You

44:48

made a psychological thriller. I

44:50

was curious if you got the note to make

44:53

it more, because horror is so huge. Is anyone

44:55

like, could it be more fucked up? You

44:58

see one murder in it.

45:01

Oh, it's hard to, you don't want to throw someone in the bus.

45:04

No, no, no, no, no, no, that's not why I'm hemming and

45:06

hauling. I'm hemming and hauling of like, what can I say without?

45:12

I will say, yeah, I'll say that I

45:14

think that I was, there

45:17

aren't like really super overt

45:20

examples, but I was definitely like

45:22

letting the financiers think I was

45:24

making more of a horror movie.

45:30

And you know, kind of the crew, I think, you

45:32

know, thought we were making a thriller. And I think

45:34

like deep down, I was like, I'm making a drama.

45:36

Like I'm really making something about grief

45:38

and it's not, I mean, you've seen

45:41

the movie. I don't know that that's

45:43

how you would describe it, but I

45:45

hope that it's in there. Psychological

45:48

thriller is a way of saying

45:50

a dramatic. Yeah. Yeah. I

45:52

mean, I guess, I mean, genres, you know, what are we,

45:54

what are we doing? I don't know. But, um, uh, Used

45:57

to just be aisles at the blockbuster. Am I right?

46:00

Now it's the whole thing. You have to sell

46:03

a genre. I mean, like I definitely remember

46:05

there were times where like this kind of special

46:08

effects meeting would be like, so how many

46:10

like blood splatter, you know, kits

46:12

do we need or whatever? And I was like zero. Yeah. And

46:15

yeah, so that was always a little bit surprising

46:19

to people, I guess. But

46:21

I remember- And a huge relief for

46:23

me and for Val, who's gonna love

46:25

it. Great. Who's gonna love it? But

46:28

it's very sophisticated. It's a very sophisticated

46:30

and elegantly told story. Well, I'll say

46:32

that I think, you know,

46:34

people obviously don't think of like scary

46:37

thriller when they think

46:39

of me. Like, you know, I'm mostly known

46:41

for like a musical comedy franchise.

46:43

That's the thing I'm most known for. And

46:46

I- I know you don't mean trolls, but in

46:48

our house- Oh, sure. Well, that too. Let's get

46:50

back up again. Yeah. Leela loves

46:52

it. Oh, I love that. And it's really a difficult

46:54

song to sing. I'll have you know. Yeah, it is.

46:57

Oh, I assumed it was easy for you. It's

46:59

not, oh, I sing it, but it's not easy.

47:02

There's a lot of range. It's a lot of-

47:04

Yeah, it's hard music. Acting singing. Oh, yeah, yeah,

47:06

yeah. Yeah, I'm okay. Which

47:08

I enjoy. No, that's your thing. You're very

47:10

good at it. But there's a lot of

47:12

emoting. And there's a lot of, if you

47:14

don't know, get back up again. It's a

47:16

lot. It's a great song though. Yeah, yeah,

47:19

yeah. Sometimes I am having a bad day and I'll throw

47:21

it on. I don't think I'm the only one. I don't

47:23

believe you at all. That's- It's completely true. There's no way

47:25

you're not so sick of that watching

47:27

it with your daughter. Love it. There's a couple

47:29

of kids songs that I love. One is Sprinkle Party.

47:32

You won't know it. I don't. And one is Get Back Up

47:34

Again. Well, I'm gonna check out Sprinkle Party in the car on

47:36

the way home. It slaps. Um.

47:41

Well, the other thing that I got was there

47:44

were some producers who really wanted me to open

47:47

the movie in a nightclub. There

47:50

was this really big push and the pitch

47:52

was kind of like, well, it establishes time

47:54

and place. And, you know, cause

47:57

I wanted to and I did open the movie.

48:01

on like a isolated hilltop, you know,

48:03

with just two people. And

48:07

you know, you might not immediately

48:09

clock that it's the 70s or, but

48:11

I don't know, there was just something about like, I

48:14

was like, I know why you guys are pitching this

48:16

and I hate it. And I hate it. And I-

48:19

We all know, is it a low tracking shot where

48:21

we see bell bottoms and platform shoes and a light

48:24

up floor? I was like, I know what you're

48:26

picturing and you're picturing boogie nights and I, and but

48:28

like, but like, but like dark boogie night, like ooh,

48:30

scary boogie nights. And I was like, I hate

48:32

it so much. And we pan up and you're sitting

48:34

alone. I hate it so, oh yeah, his vulnerable

48:36

prey. I got, yeah. I hate

48:38

it, I wanna scream, absolutely not. And

48:41

like, and I said,

48:44

which again, I guess speaks to the way that in

48:46

some ways I was like, I don't know what I'm

48:48

doing and I have imposter syndrome. And then in other

48:50

ways I would be like, geez, who's this confident motherfucker?

48:53

Where like, I remember this meeting going,

48:56

I gotta be honest, if it's that important to you

48:58

guys, I don't know how to make that movie. That's

49:00

a different movie and I don't know how to make

49:02

that. I was like,

49:04

that's insane. That is like, that

49:06

is a crazy thing as

49:09

a first time director to just be

49:11

saying to someone's face. I mean, I'm

49:13

proud of myself. Your astrological chart gets

49:15

a mark. I'm not a big astrology

49:18

person, but that's like a turning point

49:20

in your life. Yeah. When you realized

49:22

everyone in that room to

49:24

a greater or lesser extent was just pretending to

49:26

know what they're talking about. Yes. And you're like,

49:28

I can pretend to know what I'm talking about.

49:30

Completely, completely. I don't mean that to put down

49:32

what you said, but you were like, wait a

49:34

minute. We're talking, Matt

49:36

Johnson, the director I'm obsessed with,

49:39

the Canadian filmmaker, he's like, it's

49:41

like trying to remember a dream, like making movies, trying to

49:43

remember a dream. And they're like, this dream starts like this.

49:45

And you're just like, no, it doesn't.

49:47

And I know we're talking about a dream, but

49:50

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FM slash weird. Well again

53:56

I'm so glad I'm on this because

53:58

I probably won't really have the opportunity

54:00

to talk about this anywhere but here.

54:02

Because I, well

54:04

you'll see. That, you

54:07

know, so a friend of mine was like, well

54:09

why this movie? You know, like this

54:12

isn't what I expected you to make as

54:14

your directorial debut. And especially

54:17

he was referencing, because I sent him the script,

54:19

because I was like asking for some advice, he's

54:21

a filmmaker. And I was like, he was like,

54:23

especially like that opening scene, which was

54:25

a little different at the time, but you know, it

54:27

was similar to what the opening scene is now. Like

54:30

that's intense. Like why this? And

54:35

I had to think about it and I was like, you

54:37

know, I had a few

54:40

years prior to that,

54:44

a couple years prior to that, what's the

54:46

short version? I basically realized I was in

54:48

an abusive relationship. And

54:50

that kind of started me

54:53

on, I mean it's actually sort

54:55

of, not sort of,

54:57

it's when I discovered this podcast, because I

54:59

was sort of really searching for something.

55:02

I don't know, but. I've heard you talk about this

55:04

time in your life and I've been in that place

55:06

where your apartment is full of self-help

55:09

books and like, you feel like you're

55:11

losing your mind. Yes. Sorry to,

55:13

I'm not trying to scoop your story, I just want

55:15

you to know I've heard you talk about feeling gas-lit.

55:18

And when you, I don't know what your

55:20

situation was, but mine was, you started feeling like

55:22

isolated, like even the people that are helpful. And

55:25

it didn't help that this also ended

55:27

up coinciding with COVID. So now

55:29

I'm trapped in a house with someone. Oh no.

55:32

And. Oh my God, this is the first. And there is

55:34

no honesty. And

55:36

when I say honesty, I don't even just literally mean

55:40

specific things, it's like, oh,

55:42

I'm living with someone who, our

55:46

couple's therapist later, after that

55:49

relationship dissolved, told me he is

55:51

constitutionally incapable of looking at himself.

55:55

And when you are, but

55:57

when you're with someone who is just.

56:01

everything is through

56:03

the lens of the worst faith possible. So

56:06

I have, so then I'm not, so

56:09

then I'm no longer having the space to

56:11

be honest about me, every, and

56:14

that comes through in every gesture,

56:17

in every footstep, in every- Because they're looking at

56:19

it in the worst light possible. Yeah, like where

56:21

I'm like, I'm performing something

56:23

that won't kind of get me

56:26

abused, right? And I

56:29

started listening to Dax

56:31

Shepard's podcast because

56:35

he had Esther Perel, the kind of relationship

56:37

expert on, and then I

56:39

found he was so kind of like

56:42

shockingly honest that I was like, oh,

56:44

great. And then I listened to his

56:46

episode with Tony Hale and

56:49

I loved Tony so much, I've known

56:51

Tony a little while, but I was

56:53

like, oh, what other places has Tony

56:55

done podcasts? And I found your

56:57

episode with Tony. No way. And I

57:00

think I told you this thing on

57:02

set that it's in that episode, you

57:04

say something about being

57:06

up late with the

57:08

baby. Like I think she was really a baby at

57:10

the time. And

57:13

that it

57:15

was a really hard night and Val was

57:17

out for the evening and that you almost

57:19

were hoping that when Val came in, she

57:22

would catch you with the

57:24

screaming baby and in this podcast,

57:26

you're being so honest about what

57:28

am I doing and what is

57:30

that hope about? And like, oh,

57:33

I want her to know that

57:35

I'm really put upon and

57:38

so you have to love me. And I

57:40

was just like, oh my God. I

57:44

feel emotional now, I feel like I could cry now that

57:47

just finding, I was so desperate

57:50

for someone to be

57:52

honest about their dark

57:55

side, their ugliness, their flaws, because

57:57

that was suddenly not allowed. in

58:00

my home. Not for him,

58:02

not for me, not like I couldn't say,

58:05

maybe you're experiencing,

58:07

could we get a little wiggle room on that

58:10

or no? All rigidity, all rigidity, okay.

58:12

And it makes you more rigid. And

58:15

I was just like, this is a fucking nightmare. That

58:18

walking on eggshells thing, of course. And

58:21

okay, I'm gonna bring all this back to the

58:23

movie. You just made me

58:25

realize that this podcast started right

58:27

after I got out of a relationship that

58:30

was very toxic for both of us. I

58:33

say that to be nice. It was really hard on me.

58:35

And I don't know how it was for her. But

58:38

it was really, really performative and

58:40

gaslady and quarantine me away

58:43

from it. And I felt like I

58:45

was insane. And then this podcast started pretty

58:47

much right after that. And it

58:49

was almost like in response to not

58:52

being able. So the bow

58:54

of the arrow is being pulled back.

58:58

And going, can I have all this or

59:00

am I gonna get in trouble? And having

59:03

that, I was on hikes because

59:05

that was the escape. Was

59:07

I'm gonna go on a hike. While you

59:09

were still in a relationship. Yeah, and listening

59:11

to your voice, saying something

59:13

honest about yourself was like,

59:16

oh my God, I can fucking breathe. I can

59:19

fucking breathe. I'm so glad, I know

59:21

that feeling. The

59:23

bad relationship, and I'm not doing a

59:25

bit because it's too serious to kid

59:28

about. But the bad relationship refuges.

59:31

For me it was like a shower. You

59:35

just have to go take a 30 minute shower

59:37

because it's your only place. It's

59:40

like misery. I'm

59:43

always drawn to prison movies and

59:46

entrapment movies because they're

59:48

powerful metaphors for ways I've felt. It also

59:50

brought this up. I

59:53

remember there was a time when I was talking to my dad like

59:55

I talked to my daughter. And it

59:57

was such an indication of how we've

59:59

evolved. changed at least in dealing with

1:00:01

emotions. My dad was upset and

1:00:04

I said to him what I would say

1:00:06

to my daughter, I go, dad, you're upset,

1:00:08

I hear that and that's okay.

1:00:12

He goes, it's not okay. Wow.

1:00:15

Because in his defense what he

1:00:18

thought I meant was that's okay

1:00:20

that you're upset. Like it's

1:00:23

not up to me to fix it, which of course

1:00:25

you and I both know that's the modern way. Like

1:00:28

I'm not, I'm acknowledging that you're upset

1:00:30

and I see that and I'd like

1:00:32

to do what I can, but he's

1:00:34

like, fix it. Oh

1:00:36

yes, yes, yes. It's not okay that I

1:00:38

feel bad. What we do

1:00:40

in modern feeling, as

1:00:42

we'll call it, is I'm upset and

1:00:44

that's okay. Like I feel

1:00:46

like I'm going crazy. That's all right,

1:00:49

I'm gonna allow that and then

1:00:51

loosen my grip on it and then start to

1:00:53

work with it. But he's like, we're gonna start

1:00:55

from a place of this will not stand. So

1:00:57

this is, I mean, and this is where, like

1:01:00

obviously not your dad or maybe I

1:01:02

am. Yeah, yeah, it's okay. But. What

1:01:05

we say is we can take my dad out of this and keep talking. But

1:01:08

that unwillingness is like the place from

1:01:10

which all violence stems. That's exactly right.

1:01:12

Is like, I will not have this.

1:01:14

And you must change me. And I

1:01:16

will destroy it. That's right. And I

1:01:18

will project it onto you and I

1:01:21

will fucking destroy you. That's right. So

1:01:23

like, I really meant that somehow this

1:01:25

was all gonna circle back. To the

1:01:27

movie, yeah. That the opening scene

1:01:30

is two people on a hilltop and

1:01:33

I see it as that

1:01:35

duality of intimacy. It

1:01:38

is, or there's that God,

1:01:40

there's that wonderful line about the

1:01:44

rewards of being loved and the

1:01:46

mortifying ordeal of being known. And

1:01:49

now you can't get one without the other. Wow.

1:01:53

And these two people on

1:01:55

a hilltop and it's this

1:01:57

beautiful, verdant, gorgeous, the

1:01:59

light. The light is beautiful, the grass is beautiful, even

1:02:02

the sound design, it's birds

1:02:04

and it's lovely, and then

1:02:07

something shifts. Because

1:02:11

this person will

1:02:13

not hold any of his own pain. So

1:02:16

he will enact that on

1:02:18

the external world, on you. And

1:02:21

what is intimacy, what is abuse, what

1:02:23

is any of it, if not fucking,

1:02:25

not to be lame, but if not

1:02:28

two people on a hilltop with

1:02:31

no one around and nothing to save you

1:02:33

and you're risking annihilation. Right, yeah that's right.

1:02:36

And that hilltop that is

1:02:38

so beautiful is suddenly, I

1:02:41

mean even if you were alone, like a

1:02:44

beautiful mountain top could be the most beautiful

1:02:46

place in the world and if you suddenly

1:02:48

realize you're lost, that place

1:02:50

is terrifying. And now the

1:02:52

sound design is like, oh I hear a coyote, and

1:02:56

these colors feel dirty, and

1:02:58

I am so far away from civilization,

1:03:01

and I am with someone very,

1:03:03

very dangerous. And you

1:03:06

in intimacy are risking

1:03:08

annihilation. To be known. Yes.

1:03:11

You're not risking it for no reason. It's

1:03:15

like a gamble, you're like maybe they'll know me

1:03:17

and maybe they'll love me. And

1:03:19

that's when you're

1:03:21

rejected, like when you're not

1:03:23

picked as the bachelor, you were trying

1:03:25

to be known and

1:03:28

you were rejected. But maybe even worse,

1:03:30

someone does accept you and then they

1:03:32

see you and isn't that everybody's fear?

1:03:35

Like they'll see who I really am and they won't

1:03:37

want me anymore? It's 100% my fear,

1:03:39

like I'm kind of a diet in the

1:03:41

wool avoidant style. And that all stems from

1:03:43

if you really saw me, you would reject

1:03:45

me. If you really saw me, you wouldn't

1:03:47

love me. Oh I said in therapy, just

1:03:49

this last week I said, it's

1:03:52

a parts work, so I'm talking to one of mine. I

1:03:54

do parts work. Let's talk to one

1:03:56

of your protectors, Anna it's like inside the actor's studio,

1:03:58

but really inside the actor. I know

1:04:00

it makes me feel so lame, but

1:04:02

I love it. I love it too,

1:04:04

and I'm shocked that I'm able to

1:04:06

do it without getting tripped up by

1:04:08

how kind of corny it is. But

1:04:12

one of my protectors is like an

1:04:14

American Psycho style 80s stockbroker

1:04:16

with suspenders in a penthouse

1:04:18

and he's alone. And

1:04:20

he shows me profit and loss reports

1:04:23

for having human relationships. And

1:04:25

he goes, it's the stupidest investment you

1:04:27

can make. And I'm entangled with him,

1:04:30

meaning I have to detach from him.

1:04:33

I still can feel that I merged with him. And

1:04:36

his voice comes out in ways like, why go

1:04:38

to lunch with a friend? Because

1:04:40

inevitably you're gonna get busy and they're gonna wanna hang

1:04:42

out again and you won't be able to hang out.

1:04:45

So you wanna have lunch with something that

1:04:48

you can disappoint? Yes, well if

1:04:50

you get close to me, I'll just let

1:04:52

you down. He laughs in my face. He

1:04:54

goes, that's what you wanna do? Wow. Really?

1:04:56

Or just show them who you are now.

1:04:59

And by the way. Wow, yes,

1:05:01

this is, wow. What we do

1:05:03

in there, no, no, sorry. You're the guest, please. I

1:05:06

just keep going wow, that's why. I'm like,

1:05:08

oh, sorry, shut up. Well, you'll probably know from doing

1:05:11

part, well, I don't know what, I haven't really talked

1:05:13

to anybody other than Belle that's done parts

1:05:15

work. It's a type of therapy. But

1:05:17

like, I show him photographs of,

1:05:21

it's emotional, but like of

1:05:23

me being loving, like of

1:05:25

real relationship without agenda. I

1:05:28

wasn't gaming anybody here. And how does he feel

1:05:30

about that? He loves it. He's

1:05:32

not ready to leave the penthouse, but

1:05:34

the horrible, not horrible, it's not horrible.

1:05:36

I know he's listening. He goes,

1:05:38

people are the mirror that show us how ugly we

1:05:40

are. That's what he said. He's like,

1:05:42

is that what you wanna do? You

1:05:45

wanna go see how selfish you are

1:05:47

and self-centered you are? You

1:05:49

know how haunting it is when I tell Belle a

1:05:51

story and she goes, I was there? Sometimes I worry

1:05:54

it's a little fucking heavy handed, but like there's mirror

1:05:56

stuff in the movie. No, that's actually when

1:05:58

I said, this is the least AI in the movie. movie

1:06:01

when we we're not gonna talk about AI who

1:06:03

cares but I'm just saying when you're loading the

1:06:05

mirror in the truck and

1:06:07

the way that you shift it and we see

1:06:09

a little bit of your face and stuff I

1:06:13

love symbolism I think it's

1:06:16

probably heard me say this but Carl Jung talked

1:06:18

about that's what transforms us so I I think

1:06:20

it's dumb that I was always

1:06:22

trying to do more symbols in the things I've

1:06:24

made anyway when I

1:06:26

saw that moment I go yeah

1:06:28

the way a mirror looks in a box and

1:06:31

the way we see a little glimpse of ourselves

1:06:33

is something that a an AI won't

1:06:36

I don't know but right now can't understand and

1:06:38

it's very human and real I was like oh

1:06:40

my god we watch movies to see little moments

1:06:43

like that so I love the symbols

1:06:45

and I was honored that I got to be a mirror person

1:06:47

twice oh yeah you've

1:06:50

got a couple of me I love I love I picked

1:06:52

up on all of them and there's a

1:06:54

killer yes reflection I guess that's sort

1:06:56

of what I'm you know what what I

1:06:58

was thinking of when you said that you

1:07:01

know the mirror shows us how ugly we

1:07:03

are like he is unwilling right and this

1:07:05

is someone who is constitutionally incapable of looking

1:07:07

at themselves where is this unwillingness to look

1:07:09

at himself that you

1:07:12

know again I don't

1:07:14

know his the real person psychology fuck him

1:07:16

he's rotting somewhere I right give less right

1:07:18

shit we're not here to yeah it's more

1:07:20

like what is the emotion what is the

1:07:23

emotionally resonant story we can tell with with

1:07:25

these facts but

1:07:28

but this is the part that I really

1:07:30

don't want to like spoil but basically someone

1:07:32

manages to be a mirror

1:07:34

for him and convince him

1:07:37

that she does not see anything

1:07:39

wrong anything bad and the

1:07:42

end like this is how

1:07:44

she survives because

1:07:46

this is a person who cannot tolerate the

1:07:49

mirror yeah so yeah that's hard

1:07:51

to that's you're right we'll leave

1:07:53

that I could talk to you

1:07:55

about that specific thing and how

1:07:57

it's true and for like nine

1:07:59

years because it's amazing and I

1:08:01

was just so impressed that a person,

1:08:04

whenever someone's in that amount of distress and thinks

1:08:06

of a good strategy to save themselves, you're like,

1:08:08

wow, that's, no actor

1:08:11

deserves an Oscar. Those people that are doing

1:08:13

things like that. A thousand percent. To save

1:08:15

their lives. A thousand percent. Unbelievable. Okay,

1:08:18

so one thing that came to mind that I'd love

1:08:20

to work into

1:08:22

what we're saying, there's a great

1:08:24

line in the movie where it's like, did you feel seen?

1:08:27

And you said, I felt looked at. Can

1:08:30

I tell you a secret? I wrote that line like

1:08:32

the night before we shot that

1:08:34

scene and I was terrified

1:08:36

because that scene. It's

1:08:39

a key line. I really liked the line.

1:08:41

I really like, I hope the writer likes

1:08:43

it. But

1:08:47

there was like something about the scene that wasn't working and

1:08:50

I kind of last minute had to tweak some things. And

1:08:52

then there was this idea that I kept circling.

1:08:54

Like I knew that this kind of idea

1:08:56

of like the duality of intimacy, the danger

1:08:59

and the joy, the

1:09:01

annihilation and the ecstasy of intimacy

1:09:03

were things that felt thematically

1:09:06

important to me. But as we were

1:09:08

in pre-production, I

1:09:10

thought that being seen was

1:09:13

more of like a minor theme and it

1:09:15

just kept showing up in a way where

1:09:17

I finally had to go, okay, fine. Yeah.

1:09:19

Fine. That was the

1:09:22

dream. I got it. And

1:09:25

so there was like that language I

1:09:27

kept circling and I didn't really break

1:09:29

it until literally the night before. It

1:09:31

seems obvious once you do, but getting

1:09:33

there was hard. But

1:09:37

there used to be a thing in that scene where

1:09:40

like the waitress knocked over a glass

1:09:42

and the guy gets aggressive

1:09:44

with her and that's really where it's like,

1:09:46

oh, this is dangerous. And I was like,

1:09:49

I wonder if we

1:09:51

can pull off something way simpler

1:09:54

and more subtle. And like

1:09:56

on paper, I'm so

1:09:58

happy with that scene. Danny is- It's so

1:10:00

scary in that scene. I heard his feelings

1:10:03

in this way

1:10:05

that on paper is so minor that I

1:10:07

was like, I don't know if

1:10:09

the scene's gonna work. And I'm so happy with this

1:10:11

scene. It's the way you directed it and it's the

1:10:13

way you played it, because I noticed, I

1:10:16

actually had this entire thought. I was like, if

1:10:18

I read that, I would never have been like,

1:10:20

and here's a moment where he looks down and

1:10:23

Anna. And the whole scene shifts, yeah.

1:10:26

You don't do anything, you don't like jump

1:10:28

the line or something, but do you push in

1:10:30

closer? No, no, no. So it feels like you

1:10:32

did, because the whole thing is different after that.

1:10:34

It's completely, and I think

1:10:37

that there's a couple things where

1:10:40

later, it goes on for a little

1:10:42

while and then we're shooting on wider

1:10:44

lenses, but it's not really in

1:10:47

that moment. But I will say that I asked the sound

1:10:49

team to, Oh,

1:10:56

it's dead silent. It's written down, Anna.

1:10:58

Here's the crazy scene. Silence bar. I

1:11:01

loved it. The crazy thing is

1:11:03

that so many people have said,

1:11:05

I love that moment when all the sound

1:11:07

goes out. And I love that they experience

1:11:09

it that way. I

1:11:11

slowly turned down that sound, like

1:11:15

very gradually and way before the

1:11:18

turn. And then once

1:11:21

the turn happens, it's when you become

1:11:23

aware that, oh, the music's gone, the

1:11:25

chatter's gone. The kind

1:11:27

of boisterous trio that was over

1:11:29

there has left. Like,

1:11:32

oh, this is so dangerous.

1:11:35

And it's all kind of, again, like

1:11:39

the shot where he's following

1:11:41

me, it's all meant to kind of give

1:11:43

you the sense of the internal

1:11:46

experience of the terror. No,

1:11:48

you really, really did it. Can I

1:11:50

ask you a very, were

1:11:53

you, where are you? No, no, I wasn't

1:11:55

anywhere. No,

1:11:57

you looked like you were gonna go somewhere juicy.

1:11:59

And I was like, oh. that juicy because whatever,

1:12:03

because it's polite to not delve too deep. So

1:12:05

that's not my intention. I'm

1:12:07

curious. I

1:12:10

think about that relationship that I was in and

1:12:13

how my

1:12:16

reality was a different reality. You

1:12:18

talk about a lens, you know what I'm saying? It's

1:12:22

like a spell. It'll make you believe in

1:12:24

witchcraft. You know what I'm saying? Yes.

1:12:27

Keep going. I was going to say

1:12:29

on a practical level, I know people are listening. And

1:12:32

can you tell me without details that would betray

1:12:35

or make you feel uncomfortable how

1:12:37

you managed to get out of it? Because

1:12:39

it's not just a breakup. It's a reclamation,

1:12:42

reclamation, reclamation of

1:12:46

your identity, of a reality.

1:12:49

It's like showing my protector photos of

1:12:52

me being kind. You have to snap somebody out of it.

1:12:54

So could you talk about that? Unfortunately,

1:12:56

I would say I'm still

1:12:59

working on it. Yeah. Yeah. I

1:13:03

cannot be the goal of the prize on

1:13:05

podcasts. No, you certainly can't. And if you

1:13:07

do, we can take it out. But we'll

1:13:09

talk about what that brought up

1:13:12

in you without betraying anything. I

1:13:21

still, I have, I think

1:13:24

the simplest explanation is like, it's,

1:13:28

this is an oversimplification, but like I

1:13:30

have good days and bad days, you know? I

1:13:35

mainly experience them more as kind of

1:13:37

good months and bad months where every

1:13:40

week I go into therapy and I'm

1:13:42

begging her. To tell me that I

1:13:45

have an egosyntonic disorder that is so

1:13:47

pathological that she couldn't broach

1:13:50

it with me until like

1:13:52

five years into therapy because

1:13:55

it's that deep and bad and I'm begging

1:13:57

her to just tell me. that

1:14:00

I was the wolf. I

1:14:04

am legend? Because

1:14:07

at one point she had said to me,

1:14:09

this was years ago, she'd said something like,

1:14:11

well, when you're dealing with a wolf in

1:14:13

sheep's clothing, and I went, no, no, no,

1:14:16

what if I'm the wolf? That's how you

1:14:18

interpreted it. Yes. That's

1:14:20

your core negative belief. It

1:14:23

was not a negative belief I

1:14:25

had before, but yes, and

1:14:27

I think that that is really the magic

1:14:30

trick of a lot of abuse is

1:14:33

that their internal experience

1:14:35

is so distressed and

1:14:38

so convinced of their own victimhood

1:14:41

that they're not acting. They

1:14:43

believe it. So how the

1:14:45

fuck do you know which one of

1:14:47

you is which? I mean, it's like Blade Runner.

1:14:50

What do you mean I wouldn't know if

1:14:52

I was a replicant? Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

1:14:54

So yeah, wondering,

1:14:58

well, is reality my reality or

1:15:01

was it his the whole time? Like am I the

1:15:04

alchemist or the warlock or what? I

1:15:09

don't know. But don't you see,

1:15:11

and I'm not trying to just say something kind to

1:15:13

you, but don't you see how lovely

1:15:16

it is that that's a consideration

1:15:18

that you're making? I

1:15:21

suppose, like it's hard. How

1:15:23

making look, because

1:15:26

you're being so, I'm honest

1:15:29

all the time on the show, but like I'll say

1:15:31

to Val, if I'm a narcissist, you'll tell me, right?

1:15:33

And she always says, Pee-Dee, if you were a narcissist,

1:15:35

you wouldn't say that. Well, again,

1:15:37

here's the rub. Or would I? I don't

1:15:39

know that that's true. I think that that's

1:15:41

kind of true of actual, I'm

1:15:46

talking, I'm punching above my weight here, but

1:15:48

I think that might be true of actual

1:15:51

psychopaths, that a psychopath wouldn't

1:15:53

worry that they're a psychopath. But

1:15:55

narcissism is a different thing. NPD

1:16:00

is not the only thing in the

1:16:02

game. Right. You know, there are other

1:16:04

disorders. Right. And like every time I

1:16:06

see something on Instagram that's like, here's

1:16:08

how you can tell if you're

1:16:11

a narcissist or he's a narcissist or she's

1:16:13

a narcissist. I go, I

1:16:16

really wish that one of

1:16:18

these things was like a tried and

1:16:20

true test. Yeah. And the

1:16:23

tragedy of humans is

1:16:25

that we can take any tool and turn

1:16:27

it into a weapon. So like

1:16:30

anything that feels like it kind of goes,

1:16:32

yeah, that must be it. I go, or

1:16:35

maybe I'm just telling myself that. And

1:16:37

I, this

1:16:40

is hard because I don't

1:16:43

really, I don't know what to do. I don't know what, I

1:16:45

don't know that, I don't

1:16:47

know that just the question itself is. Yeah,

1:16:50

I understand. Perfect evidence. Will you accept? Will

1:16:52

we accept? Because we're having the same issue.

1:16:56

I don't know why I want to tell you that

1:16:58

I took MDMA, which they do in therapy. And

1:17:02

I had this really like, oh

1:17:04

my God, Pete wants to be better. And

1:17:07

that was deeply emotional for me. Not

1:17:10

that Pete is perfect, but I was like.

1:17:13

Look at Pete trying. Of

1:17:17

all the things, but that's you as well. Yeah. You're

1:17:19

in therapy, you're asking these questions and we don't know.

1:17:22

And we don't know. So my next question for

1:17:24

both of us is like, in

1:17:26

your parts work, in your therapy, do

1:17:29

you have any relationship to your higher

1:17:31

self, their highest self? The

1:17:34

part that. Well, oh

1:17:36

God, it's so embarrassing to talk about parts work.

1:17:38

It's like, it really is the corniest of all

1:17:41

the modalities I feel. I agree. But when you

1:17:43

bring it in the highest self, you're bringing in

1:17:45

3,000 years of mystical tradition. So

1:17:47

we're talking about your. I think you might

1:17:49

be a little more comfortable with

1:17:51

that stuff than I am. I

1:17:56

think I have a little more built in

1:17:59

resistance to it. still while being

1:18:01

totally open to it. But yeah,

1:18:03

I think there's, I have a bigger part of me that wants

1:18:06

to go, Oh, this, oh, 3000 years of it. Like,

1:18:09

wait a minute. That's in the movie where

1:18:11

somebody says it's your soul and your, and

1:18:13

your, Oh yeah. Yes.

1:18:17

Yeah. I like asking you about your

1:18:19

soul, but I'm also just asking you

1:18:21

about your consciousness, meaning the neutral field

1:18:23

wherein all of it happens. Yes. So

1:18:26

we can even just talk about it

1:18:28

scientifically and say there is an awareness

1:18:31

that was the same when you were

1:18:34

two or when you were looking for

1:18:36

parking, the same thing that was aware

1:18:38

of your car and the house and

1:18:40

is the same awareness that's perceiving

1:18:42

this. So there is a neutral

1:18:44

holding space. That's none of these

1:18:46

things, but does exist. And

1:18:48

I get relief from myself when

1:18:51

I go, like, is, when

1:18:53

I say, even I say is Pete, does

1:18:55

Pete have narcissistic tendencies? I can experience the

1:18:57

relief of stepping back from that and going

1:19:00

like this observing

1:19:03

field has no gender, has

1:19:05

no age, has no weight,

1:19:08

has no psychology

1:19:10

to be disrupted or

1:19:12

not disrupted. I w

1:19:14

if the answer is no, that's fine, but

1:19:17

I, I wondered if you ever can sink

1:19:19

back into the, yeah, I remember, the analyst,

1:19:21

Anna, I remember finding

1:19:23

out my friend Kelly, who's the,

1:19:25

the actress in that first scene in the

1:19:28

movie. Oh, wow. I remember she

1:19:30

had texted me and said, I have,

1:19:32

I have news too much to text,

1:19:35

right? And I don't know how,

1:19:37

but I knew she was moving away. And

1:19:41

I was like, it was, again, this

1:19:43

is sort of tail end

1:19:45

of COVID times maybe. And

1:19:47

like, I don't know about you, but like a

1:19:49

bunch of people moved away. Yeah. And, and, and,

1:19:52

and I had just gotten out of this relationship and

1:19:54

I just felt like I was like, I was just

1:19:56

experiencing so much loss. And, you

1:19:58

know, Kelly's one of my. closest friends

1:20:01

and she's the most incredible person. And

1:20:04

I was in the shower and I did

1:20:06

kind of go to that place of, I

1:20:08

started to see my thoughts like a ticker

1:20:10

tape. And I

1:20:12

was going, oh, Anna's

1:20:15

so anxious. And Anna really

1:20:17

wants this to not be happening. Cause

1:20:20

she's so sad and she's grieving and she's avoiding

1:20:22

grief. Oh, look at that. She is trying to

1:20:24

tell herself, no, no, no, that's not what she

1:20:26

meant. That's no, she's, and I can convince her

1:20:28

to stay. And

1:20:31

all of that is just Anna trying so hard

1:20:33

to avoid grief because it's going to hurt a

1:20:35

lot. Yeah. So you did have a witness thing.

1:20:37

Yeah. So I can, yeah, sometimes.

1:20:39

Well, we did it when you were parking,

1:20:42

the guy behind you on the street

1:20:44

had parked two forward. So

1:20:47

there was like a good three feet behind you. So

1:20:49

he was making your spot a little too small. And,

1:20:52

you know, if you got a ticket, we'll happily

1:20:54

pay it obviously, but you're a little bit

1:20:56

in a driveway. And I said to you, I

1:20:58

was joking. And I was like, and

1:21:00

we're not going to take that personally. Right.

1:21:02

But I do go like this person isn't

1:21:04

considered enough to park so that someone else

1:21:06

can park in front of them. I'll jump

1:21:08

right to, so they're unsafe.

1:21:11

I'm unsafe. Yeah. They're like

1:21:13

unconscious and therefore like I'm

1:21:16

at risk. Yeah. But

1:21:19

if I don't stop it, if I don't stop it.

1:21:21

That's really. Okay. I'm going to steer

1:21:23

us back because I think there's something

1:21:25

valuable here without talking about

1:21:27

parking. Even

1:21:30

though you're still unpacking it in

1:21:32

a practical way, I

1:21:36

went to therapy to get out of

1:21:38

my situation. And what

1:21:41

Dr. Gary Penn told

1:21:43

me was he's like the way out

1:21:45

of a situation like this is to

1:21:47

not, don't debate.

1:21:50

Meaning I was like, I

1:21:52

want to not be in this relationship.

1:21:55

And when you're, again, we can take

1:21:57

this all out. I'm not looking for juicy

1:22:00

tidbits. and this isn't gonna be a social

1:22:02

media clip. I'm just saying, Jo, I'm just

1:22:04

saying, when you're

1:22:06

dealing with somebody that has your number and

1:22:10

seems to be pulling strings you didn't know

1:22:12

you have and

1:22:14

isolating you and you're losing your mind and

1:22:16

you wanna break up with this person. And

1:22:19

that's what I'm saying, there are people in

1:22:21

that situation that are listening without a doubt

1:22:23

to different degrees. My

1:22:25

advice that I'll share every time

1:22:27

is they'll say things like, I

1:22:30

can change or let's say they say, you'll never find somebody

1:22:32

like me, you don't know how lucky you are, maybe

1:22:36

we should try just dating again or

1:22:38

something. There are all these things that

1:22:40

are just extending the date in the

1:22:42

tiki bar. Yeah. You

1:22:45

know what I mean? Yes. And you need

1:22:47

to say, get your fucking hands off my car. There needs to be

1:22:49

a moment. And then the support is

1:22:51

the people that come out. This will make more

1:22:53

sense, this will make more sense after you see

1:22:55

Woman of the Hour, which is coming on Netflix,

1:22:57

right? On Netflix, yeah. So that's a beautiful metaphor.

1:22:59

But like the

1:23:01

tip that literally the monetary

1:23:03

value of this tip is at least $30,000 of therapy is

1:23:06

they'll say, you're gonna

1:23:08

regret this and you say, I might.

1:23:11

Yeah. Isn't that, that takes all

1:23:13

the power away. You're gonna regret this. You're right,

1:23:15

I might regret this. You're gonna beg for me

1:23:17

to take you back and I won't. That'll be

1:23:19

really hard for me. And in my

1:23:22

mind, I'm just like, oh my God, I'm doing

1:23:24

it. I'm getting away. It doesn't

1:23:26

have to be about breaking up specifically,

1:23:28

but extricating yourself from a fog like

1:23:31

trance. Yes, well, I'll say, oh God,

1:23:34

this is really interesting. The presentation was

1:23:37

different. It

1:23:39

kind of didn't follow that kind of

1:23:41

classic, that sort

1:23:44

of pattern. But there

1:23:46

was, but I mean, in a

1:23:48

very similar way, there was a

1:23:50

moment where when this person would

1:23:53

say, just

1:23:56

cuckoo, nut job things, just crazy

1:23:58

things. Of

1:24:00

course. Wait, what flavor to you about

1:24:02

you? Yes, yes, yes. Yeah,

1:24:05

I mean. I know. No,

1:24:08

I mean, I'm like, I spent

1:24:10

about two hours on

1:24:13

a Dax Shepard's podcast. And I cried like seven

1:24:15

times and it was a whole, that's why I'm

1:24:17

like, I cannot be the girl that cries on

1:24:19

podcasts. But, so

1:24:22

I'm just trying to truncate it a little bit.

1:24:25

But that basically

1:24:28

I would try to, I

1:24:32

was still trying to find a

1:24:34

way to ever so gently, like

1:24:37

go, but this is

1:24:39

reality. Like what? What? Yeah,

1:24:42

I was trying, in one way it

1:24:44

makes total sense. I was trying to

1:24:46

hold on to my fucking reality and

1:24:48

like my most intimate person

1:24:51

in my life. I couldn't accept

1:24:53

that he was in a totally different

1:24:56

reality and

1:24:59

I kept trying to find a way

1:25:02

to read all the books and go

1:25:04

to Al-Anon and go to therapy and

1:25:06

go to couples therapy to

1:25:09

explain, which

1:25:11

we could argue was like, well

1:25:13

debate really. Like get locked into

1:25:16

a debate that was like gentle

1:25:18

enough that it didn't trigger his

1:25:20

shame and defensiveness. And like we

1:25:22

could actually be existing in the

1:25:24

same reality where

1:25:26

like he was not doing

1:25:28

great things and

1:25:30

that was unacceptable to him.

1:25:33

And- That's the mirror

1:25:35

thing. And you become the witness

1:25:37

to something he doesn't want to look at. He

1:25:39

needed a mirror to say, you have never done

1:25:41

anything wrong in your whole fucking life and

1:25:43

I couldn't do, I

1:25:46

mean no one could. That's why the

1:25:48

breakup is so hard as you say,

1:25:50

I'm leaving, that's unacceptable to certain personality

1:25:52

types. They're like, what are you

1:25:54

insane? Yeah, but

1:25:58

it was like when we're talking about like.

1:26:00

Well, when did the spell break and how

1:26:02

did you snap out of it? It was,

1:26:04

it was like a couple conversations right toward

1:26:06

the end where, I

1:26:08

mean, I don't know. I'd love to say

1:26:10

that I, I finally decided, but I don't

1:26:13

know if it was just out of fear

1:26:15

that I just went like, I'm not going

1:26:17

to get into a power struggle. I'm

1:26:20

just going to like, let him really

1:26:22

talk and almost just take everything he's

1:26:24

saying and go, Oh, okay,

1:26:26

sure. Yeah. Like I,

1:26:28

I didn't even subtly try, but

1:26:30

it was almost the only, no, but this

1:26:32

is, this is almost

1:26:35

like the only way that I could really

1:26:37

see my, like I

1:26:39

could actually see instead

1:26:42

of trying to resist, I

1:26:44

could go, Oh no, you're

1:26:47

so unhealthy. Like,

1:26:49

Oh, this is like

1:26:51

giving him the space to kind

1:26:53

of have his whole thesis statement

1:26:55

rather than interjecting at all was

1:26:58

like how I could finally see,

1:27:01

Oh, this is a fucking nightmare. Right. Right.

1:27:03

Um, and yeah, so that's when I was

1:27:05

like, I think we need to cut contact

1:27:07

and, you know, and it was messier than

1:27:09

that and it, you know, whatever, but, um,

1:27:12

I really wish, like more than fucking anything.

1:27:15

I wish that there was like a moment

1:27:17

or a thing I did or a thing

1:27:19

I read that I could

1:27:21

then share, you know, and But

1:27:23

it's, you are sharing it because even though

1:27:26

you turn it into a story, that's

1:27:29

always going to touch people and, and

1:27:31

shape them. And because what happens in

1:27:33

the movie without a spoiler is you

1:27:35

do realize your power and you do

1:27:37

realize that something crazy is happening. I

1:27:40

haven't seen a lot of movies where at the end

1:27:42

of the movie, the person, well, that's a real spoiler,

1:27:44

but let's just say that they don't like go for

1:27:46

it and get the part, uh,

1:27:49

and you're so happy for this. You're

1:27:52

so happy. It's a win. Well, the

1:27:54

interaction that you and I have in

1:27:56

the hallway, it's like a wordless reaction,

1:27:58

really. And. it's the

1:28:00

win that I can get. And

1:28:03

I'm like, I'll take it. But also

1:28:05

leaving. Yes, yes, yes. There's a

1:28:07

lot of wins. And get your hands off my

1:28:09

fucking cards. It is a win. I almost cut

1:28:11

that, because I thought, oh, I seem so lame

1:28:13

saying that. And I literally had to go, you

1:28:16

know what? If Nicolette, who's the girl in

1:28:18

the audience, for some reason I thought, if

1:28:20

Nicolette was playing this part, I would want

1:28:23

her to have that moment. So I

1:28:25

got caught up in my own, I

1:28:28

was too aware of myself. I

1:28:30

understand. Look, it took me

1:28:32

two watch throughs to be able

1:28:35

to tolerate watching my own scene. I

1:28:37

can't imagine. And here's a more gentler

1:28:40

question, meaning we're sort of

1:28:42

in the grit, and I love it. But I

1:28:44

am curious. A director is often

1:28:46

the refuge for you've been in so many

1:28:48

films, you can go to the

1:28:50

director and say, is this working?

1:28:52

Or can he help me? Or even

1:28:55

just knowing someone's watching, whether or not they

1:28:58

say anything to you, was

1:29:00

it hard for you to go back and forth and

1:29:02

have to watch yourself? I

1:29:08

will say that this is an area

1:29:10

of actual built up confidence for me.

1:29:12

Oh, I feel weird even saying it.

1:29:15

This is wonderful. But it's

1:29:17

like, I've been acting on

1:29:19

film for 20 years. And

1:29:23

I have wanted to become

1:29:25

the kind of performer who

1:29:30

is helping the editor, who is helping

1:29:32

the director, who's helping the cinematographer. A

1:29:34

friend of every department? That's

1:29:36

what I, you wanna talk about? Yeah.

1:29:40

I'm talking about myself, a real J-hole.

1:29:42

I joke that I'm a friend of

1:29:44

every department. But in some way, absolutely. I

1:29:48

help with the continuity. In the middle

1:29:50

of the scene, I'll go, someone

1:29:53

else's continuity. It's absurd.

1:29:57

It's absurd. Where you're like, oh, I hope no one noticed that, but

1:29:59

I hope I can. I get a fucking gold star for doing that.

1:30:01

Of course. I used to call

1:30:03

myself Ford, friend of every, oh, that didn't

1:30:05

work. But everything in these really literal ways,

1:30:07

just more like, I

1:30:10

don't know, there's times where I'm like, oh,

1:30:13

I think they could cut on that little micro

1:30:17

expression change or something like that. And

1:30:19

I honestly think it's a function of

1:30:21

me being ADHD and

1:30:24

it's like, the performance doesn't

1:30:26

totally quiet my

1:30:28

brain, but the performance plus thinking

1:30:30

about everybody else's, like, how can

1:30:32

I be the best coworker possible?

1:30:35

It's like so delight, it's such a delightful space

1:30:37

for me to be in. So

1:30:40

I'll say that like, there

1:30:45

was literally one setup, one angle where

1:30:47

I didn't correctly

1:30:52

predict, oh, we're gonna use this take

1:30:55

and that'll cut with that and blah, blah, blah. I've

1:30:58

been thinking about the edit for years. I

1:31:00

haven't been directing, but I've been trying to

1:31:02

be the kind of performer who's thinking about

1:31:04

the edit. And

1:31:07

it was kind of fun, because I was like, oh,

1:31:09

what I learned was this setup that's

1:31:12

like a kind of true profile of

1:31:14

me. I was like, oh, because you

1:31:16

don't have access to both eyes, the

1:31:18

performance doesn't read as, you

1:31:24

just need a little more from it, I

1:31:26

guess. So I was certain it was gonna

1:31:28

be take three, and it

1:31:30

was take four, the one where I finished and

1:31:32

thought, and mentally kind of just thought, I was

1:31:34

pushing it a little bit. Oh, wow. And then

1:31:36

that was the one in the movie because the

1:31:38

take three didn't read, I was like, oh, if

1:31:40

the angle had been right in front of me.

1:31:42

That talk about something that, well, I don't think

1:31:45

people talk a lot about this, I love that

1:31:47

Michael Caine, you can watch it on YouTube where

1:31:49

he talks about film acting, have you watched that?

1:31:51

No, no, no. It's really fun, not

1:31:53

for the tips, I mean, there are

1:31:55

good tips in there, but it's just kind of

1:31:57

like fun little piece of history, but he talks

1:31:59

a lot about that. Like, how am I being

1:32:01

framed? Yes. And I

1:32:03

get embarrassed when I watch myself act if

1:32:06

I know, let's say

1:32:08

the camera's behind me, but I'm in

1:32:10

the shot. There might be more of these. Oh,

1:32:13

I know. You know what I mean? It's just because

1:32:15

if it's your moment, I'll give it to you that

1:32:17

way. Because that's your job. And sometimes you

1:32:19

don't do that, but sometimes you do. Maybe

1:32:21

one take. Just as a treat?

1:32:24

Just that we're allowed. Tell me

1:32:26

something about acting. Like, one

1:32:29

way I phrase it is the best piece

1:32:31

of advice you've gotten about acting. Oh,

1:32:34

God. Or maybe something like a mantra that

1:32:36

you carry with you. Or is it more

1:32:38

what you're saying? I

1:32:40

was just talking to somebody about how Steven Spielberg

1:32:43

would come up with ideas in the car

1:32:45

because it's occupying your motor skills. Oh, interesting.

1:32:47

So then you have your creative mind. So

1:32:49

you're directing and you're acting, and you can

1:32:51

kind of put it out of your

1:32:53

mind. When you're acting, are you trying to not think about

1:32:56

acting and just trust your instinct? I'm

1:32:59

sure it's different for everyone, so this

1:33:01

wouldn't be universally applicable at all. But

1:33:03

I think that because I'm ADHD and

1:33:06

I really like

1:33:10

thinking about the camera move and

1:33:12

having that in my awareness. You

1:33:14

really don't seem like that kind

1:33:16

of actor. Because it almost

1:33:18

turns off the part that could get in the

1:33:20

way. It's like there's only enough room for the

1:33:22

truth beyond this other piece that's going, oh, and

1:33:25

then the camera's going to come around. Because

1:33:28

then you'll be blocking Pete if you're doing

1:33:30

that. And I

1:33:32

found that I really didn't know

1:33:34

what all the actors in

1:33:38

the movie, because there's so many actors, and they're all so good, like

1:33:40

what their process was going to

1:33:45

be like. And if I was going to

1:33:47

have to kind of suddenly learn the language

1:33:49

of a very touchy, feely, kind of

1:33:53

abstract conceptual. You're

1:33:56

a head actor. Yeah.

1:33:58

And I can't just. silks

1:34:00

to get into it. Who says?

1:34:03

But I didn't, I, yeah, I

1:34:06

guess I was worried that

1:34:09

there was gonna be at least one actor that came

1:34:11

in where I was gonna be like, I don't know

1:34:13

how to speak their language. And I found it was

1:34:15

really the opposite and all the actors

1:34:17

were kind of desperate for the thing that I'm

1:34:19

always desperate for, which is just tell me what

1:34:21

you need. And just tell me like what the

1:34:24

shot is. And like let me in on all

1:34:26

of that and I'm gonna do a better job. Of

1:34:28

course. So I- For

1:34:31

me. For me that's an of course. Yeah, yeah. So

1:34:34

I had a really great, I think there was

1:34:36

even a moment with you where I said, will

1:34:39

you just look at me for one second? Yeah.

1:34:41

Just like stay really still. No, you gave me a really, and it's in

1:34:43

the movie. Yeah. It's in the movie.

1:34:46

Yeah. And I think we're talking about

1:34:48

that, I'm just trying to give you a compliment,

1:34:50

not so much remember exactly what it was, but

1:34:52

there is a moment where I have to be

1:34:54

very kind of creepy and heard and it's vulnerable.

1:34:56

It's one of the more vulnerable, I guess you

1:34:58

could just say dramatic. It's one of the most

1:35:00

dramatic things I've done. But it's not

1:35:03

me writing a scene from my past that I

1:35:05

actually lived where I'm sad, my wife is leaving

1:35:07

me or something like that. It's like, no, you're

1:35:09

a skis and you're a baby. And

1:35:12

I think you gave me something very

1:35:14

specific and you were like, I don't

1:35:18

know what it was, but- Was it the hair thing? Was

1:35:20

it? It might've been the hair. Oh, touching the

1:35:22

hair? Yeah. Well, Val told me the

1:35:25

thing that the killer guy improvised that. Yeah. Well,

1:35:28

because I knew that I wanted him to, it's

1:35:31

not in the script, but I kind of

1:35:33

knew secretly that I was gonna ask Pete

1:35:36

to kind of invade my space a little

1:35:38

and like tuck my hair behind my ear.

1:35:40

And you were like, it was very sweet.

1:35:42

It speaks well of you that you

1:35:45

were like, what? Ha ha

1:35:47

ha ha ha ha ha. So I

1:35:49

just, wait, so why am I

1:35:51

doing that though? Like what? I

1:35:55

just touch your hair? What? Yes,

1:36:00

and then I kind of have a

1:36:02

weird, almost like you're talking about

1:36:04

with your daughter, where it's like I sort

1:36:06

of cower, and then you feel hurt that

1:36:09

I cower, but that I knew

1:36:11

that I was gonna have Danny, who

1:36:14

plays the killer, his

1:36:17

name is Rodney, I just feel like. You mean the

1:36:19

killer's name is Rodney? Yeah, the killer's name is Rodney,

1:36:21

I keep saying the killer, but. I kind of liked

1:36:23

it, like we're keeping him out of the news. Yeah,

1:36:25

I agree. That

1:36:28

I knew that I wanted him to kind

1:36:30

of do something similar, sort of tuck someone's

1:36:32

hair behind their ear in the opening scene,

1:36:34

but then when Danny

1:36:36

and I were shooting our sort

1:36:39

of big scenes, he just

1:36:41

in one take reached out and tucked my

1:36:43

hair behind my ear, and

1:36:46

that take is in the movie, and I

1:36:48

was like what the fuck is,

1:36:51

and we like keep walking and I called cut, and

1:36:53

I immediately spun on him, and I was like who

1:36:56

told you to do that? Did someone tell you, why

1:36:58

would you think what? Because

1:37:02

I hadn't even told him that I wanted him to do it

1:37:04

in the opening scene, and

1:37:06

he just did it, because

1:37:09

when you had that resistance to doing

1:37:11

it, I was like, ooh, maybe it

1:37:13

is too weird, and maybe no one

1:37:15

would really do that, but because this

1:37:17

act is in the mind of someone very creepy,

1:37:20

who does not really see me as human, he

1:37:22

was like of course I'd reach out and

1:37:25

inappropriately touch her hair. And I think if

1:37:27

I was really

1:37:29

in touch with that character and did like a

1:37:31

study, I could have embodied like a 70s guy

1:37:34

that would do that. But it was also your

1:37:36

day one, and you were being so funny in

1:37:38

the scene, and improvising all this stuff. Well you

1:37:40

know, look, watching this movie, I

1:37:43

was like oh man, I'm more

1:37:45

lit up about acting than ever, watching,

1:37:47

being in a movie like this, and

1:37:50

one of the hurdles for me is

1:37:52

I want, ugh, I hate

1:37:54

this, but I think you're gonna have something great

1:37:56

to say about it. I wanna

1:37:58

be liked. Like when

1:38:00

I look at my list. I don't relate to that. I

1:38:04

just leave you hanging after all

1:38:06

this. I'm like, I'm such a

1:38:08

fan of the show. And

1:38:10

then I'm like, ew, really? You just crucify me right

1:38:13

there. That's pathetic. You need to get over that. You

1:38:15

love yourself, Pete. Sorry,

1:38:17

sorry, sorry. I had heard you

1:38:19

say something when you did the

1:38:21

movie about the bipolar. Forgive

1:38:24

me. You tear out your hair in

1:38:26

it. Oh, Alice Darling. Alice Darling. That

1:38:29

that was one of your least less,

1:38:31

excuse me, likable initially characters. Right, yes, yes,

1:38:33

yes. So when I heard you talking about

1:38:35

that, it was on Hot Ones. I

1:38:38

was like, oh, maybe we can talk about this.

1:38:40

Getting over, because this is the first thing I've

1:38:42

been in where I'm like, most

1:38:45

of the parts I'm in are leaning into

1:38:47

what I'm about. And I'm fine with that.

1:38:49

I'm not like, challenge me. But

1:38:51

it's like, the guy is funny. I'm going

1:38:53

to riff a lot. And I'll be likable.

1:38:55

And that's great. When

1:38:57

people talk about being typecast, I'm like, I'll

1:38:59

take any type of casting. I love it.

1:39:02

I love doing it. Fine. But here I

1:39:04

am in a thing not

1:39:06

being likable. And I was just

1:39:08

curious. I

1:39:10

guess the question would be like, how do you get over?

1:39:14

It seems to me like having an awareness of the

1:39:16

piece as a whole. These are my guesses. How

1:39:19

the best way to be liked for

1:39:21

the killer, what's the actor's name? I'm so

1:39:23

sorry. Danny. Danny. For Danny to

1:39:25

go like, well, actually in the long

1:39:27

run, the way to be the most

1:39:30

likable is to be the creepiest killer

1:39:32

in the world. It's like postponing your,

1:39:34

sometimes I want to eat a

1:39:36

pint of ice cream at night. And then I

1:39:38

go, but in the morning you'll wake up and

1:39:40

you'll be so proud that you didn't. So postpone

1:39:42

your gratification. And there's something about like, I

1:39:44

want to be the funniest, most well-liked, coolest

1:39:47

guy on set. And you're asking me to like

1:39:49

creep on you. And I'm like, but that's not

1:39:51

cool. I want Anna to like me. But

1:39:54

really what Anna wants, she's the jerk. She wants

1:39:56

me to creep her out. So post-pilot, just any

1:39:58

of that. No. Well, that's so

1:40:00

interesting, and especially because what that made me

1:40:03

think of was that, you

1:40:05

know, Danny had a really

1:40:08

tricky responsibility because on the one

1:40:10

hand, in order to prevent it

1:40:12

from creeping into caricature, he

1:40:14

had to kind of find a

1:40:16

way to relate to his character

1:40:19

and make his character the hero

1:40:21

of his own story internally and,

1:40:23

you know, and all these things. I

1:40:28

think, like, had to be aware

1:40:30

that these scenes, I mean, he

1:40:32

worked more days than, I think,

1:40:34

even me. I mean, not as

1:40:36

a director, but as an actor. Like, I think he was

1:40:38

on camera more days than I was, and

1:40:40

yet, like, none of the scenes are

1:40:43

really about him, you know? Like, so

1:40:45

he has to be so

1:40:47

good in every fucking

1:40:49

scene, and yet, like,

1:40:53

none of the scenes, and certainly the

1:40:55

movie is not, like, centering his experience.

1:40:57

Right. Oh,

1:40:59

that's right. So the kind of generosity of an

1:41:01

actor to go, well,

1:41:04

really, this movie is

1:41:06

about every actor that

1:41:09

I'm in a scene with. It's more about them

1:41:11

than about me. Use

1:41:13

their shadow. Yeah. Use

1:41:15

the scary shadow. Yes. Yeah. Yes.