In this conversation with Karen Palmer, a multi-disciplinary immersive filmmaker who uses art, AI, gamification, neuroscience and behavioral psychology in her work, VRTL learns about her anti-empathy approach. Palmer's RIOT, an installation that required bespoke artificial intelligence, used storylines triggered by the viewer’s response to calm, anger and/or fear. Palmer tells how fear has significant relevance to her creativity, and she reveals her unique way of grappling with it.