0:02

Welcome to the

0:02

uplift conversations podcast

0:05

where we discuss the social and

0:05

community context that

0:09

contribute to a culture where

0:09

violence can thrive, and what we

0:13

can do as individuals and

0:13

members of communities to change

0:17

that culture of violence, and

0:17

create a world in which all

0:20

people can live free. My name is

0:20

Jessica, I use she her pronouns.

0:24

And I do policy and organizing

0:24

work at the Vermont network. I'm

0:28

super excited to be hosting this

0:28

conversation alongside one of my

0:33

most favorite people ever. Ah,

0:33

Thanks, Jess.

0:36

I'm Llu everybody, I use they/them pronouns. I'm a media maker here

0:38

in Vermont, and a community

0:41

activist. And I'm so honored to

0:41

be brought into these

0:44

conversations alongside some

0:44

really fantastic humans doing

0:48

really pivotal work here in the

0:48

state. Hey, y'all, this is Lou,

0:53

I just want to let you know, I was part of this first conversation with Keegan and

0:54

Ward. However, we haven't

0:57

decided that I'd be an official

0:57

co host yet. So that's why you

1:00

don't hear me throughout the

1:00

episode. But I think you're

1:02

really gonna dig it. All right,

1:02

back to the show.

1:06

I've been really looking forward to today's conversation. Because

1:07

today we are going to dig into

1:12

quite a big topic. And that is

1:12

around engaging men in this work

1:17

and the relationship that men

1:17

have with one another. Often

1:22

doing this work, domestic and

1:22

sexual violence are viewed as

1:26

women's issues. And yet we know

1:26

that heterosexual sis men are

1:31

largely missing from the

1:31

conversation. And so pulling men

1:35

to the table and getting them

1:35

engaged in this work in these

1:38

conversations. It seems really

1:38

important, but also like this

1:43

biggest mysterious nut to crack

1:43

in this work, which is why I'm

1:47

so excited to introduce you all

1:47

to our guests today. So first

1:52

step, I'd love to introduce you

1:52

to my dear colleague Ward, who

1:55

has spent the last 30 years

1:55

working with survivors of

1:58

domestic violence and the last

1:58

15 with men who have caused harm

2:02

over in Washington State. Hi,

2:02

Ward. Hi, Jessica. Good to be

2:06

with you. And we are also joined

2:06

today by Keegan, who has a

2:11

background in social work, and

2:11

is the founder and executive

2:15

director of the dads guild,

2:15

which is a local organization

2:19

here in Burlington, that is

2:19

creating supportive and

2:22

authentic networks for fathers.

2:22

Welcome, Kagan, glad to have you

2:25

with us.

2:26

Hey, Jessica,

2:26

thank you so much for having me

2:29

on today. You

2:30

both have different lenses and backgrounds. And I'm hoping you

2:32

can help us start to understand

2:36

those influences and patterns

2:36

that are at work when it comes

2:39

to the relationship that men

2:39

have with this culture of

2:45

violence that we live in. And so

2:45

men, if you want to change your

2:49

relationships and the culture of

2:49

violence, listen up, because

2:53

this episode is for you. And

2:53

really, I think this work is

2:57

also for women too, right? I

2:57

know, personally, I'm really

3:01

excited to learn from both of

3:01

you. So that I can better

3:05

understand and support the men

3:05

in my life who are trying to be

3:09

good allies and do this work,

3:09

but keep butting up against

3:13

those very real social

3:13

challenges that make it so

3:17

difficult. And just as a

3:17

disclaimer, I think we're going

3:20

to be using the term men as like

3:20

this catch all term today when

3:24

we talk about, and really what

3:24

we're trying to talk about is

3:28

that group of individuals who

3:28

present as masculine and are

3:32

assigned that package of male

3:32

roles, privileges, and

3:36

stereotypes by our society, but

3:36

also want to acknowledge the

3:41

limitations and imperfections of

3:41

that language. This is I think,

3:45

my biggest curiosity around the

3:45

issue. We know that men are the

3:51

biggest perpetrators of

3:51

violence. And so why aren't men

3:55

talking about these issues? And

3:55

how do we bring them to the

3:58

table to really change this

3:58

narrative?

4:01

You know, it's

4:01

probably an enduring question

4:03

that we'll be asking for quite

4:03

some time. But most men who hear

4:09

about or engaged around the

4:09

issue of men causing harm,

4:14

immediately go to this, I'm a

4:14

good guy, I don't do that. Not

4:19

my problem are many that

4:19

immediately shuts down any kind

4:24

of notion about what personal

4:24

responsibility or what

4:30

accountability we may have to

4:30

our community, to our family, to

4:34

those that we care about in

4:34

addressing an issue that yes,

4:38

predominantly when we're talking

4:38

about domestic and sexual

4:40

violence predominantly impacts

4:40

women and children, but also has

4:44

impacted men and so to talk

4:44

about men's responsibility, and

4:49

also not talking about men's

4:49

vulnerability around that. Both

4:56

of those are really kind of off

4:56

putting points of engaged He's

5:00

meant for most men that had been

5:00

socialized as male in this

5:04

culture. invulnerability is

5:04

paramount, right, and a number

5:11

one criteria in order to have

5:11

your quote unquote man card. And

5:16

then the other aspect of that is

5:16

that whole notion, if I step

5:20

into this, do I have to like

5:20

peel back the layers on some of

5:26

the junk that's inside of me

5:26

that, frankly, I try most of my

5:30

life to avoid? Like, I don't

5:30

want to see those dark, shadowy

5:35

spots in my life. And I frankly,

5:35

I don't want to see it in other

5:38

dudes either. So I'd really

5:38

rather just avoid that whole

5:42

thing. And let's go have a beer and party.

5:44

Can I Can I say

5:44

something? I really appreciated

5:48

what you said Ward. And I do

5:48

have a beef with this toxic

5:51

masculinity term that starts off

5:51

by saying, Hey, you're the

5:55

problem. But even more like

5:55

larger for me is that when the

5:58

term toxic masculinity is thrown

5:58

out there, I imagine we all go

6:02

to a similar place of like, what

6:02

that looks like, you know, for

6:05

me, I picture someone who's like

6:05

womanizing, and maybe it's

6:08

abusive, and is not empathetic,

6:08

and not showing emotion or is

6:12

being aggressive. I think it's

6:12

really easy to be a a man and be

6:16

like, Oh, well, that's, that's

6:16

about me. I'm, I'm not

6:19

contributing to toxic

6:19

masculinity. Sure, you might not

6:22

be to that level of like some of

6:22

these problematic behaviors. And

6:26

how are you perpetuating this

6:26

patriarchal society that we all

6:30

live in? It took me a while to

6:30

really understand not just men

6:33

who are like this, this problem

6:33

here who are like, Oh, we have a

6:36

problem with men. It's like,

6:36

hey, we actually have a

6:38

patriarchal society, that's a

6:38

really big problem. And we all

6:42

contribute to it knowingly or

6:42

unknowingly in some capacity, I

6:46

think that piece around when men

6:46

are being vulnerable, and are

6:49

sharing how that actually can

6:49

make women feel uncomfortable,

6:52

like, ooh, actually, I know, I

6:52

know, why did this bite I don't,

6:56

this is making me really

6:56

uncomfortable hearing men share

6:59

this. And so I think it's just

6:59

that kind of reminder that we're

7:02

all contributing to this man,

7:02

obviously, are the perpetrators

7:05

more often of violence, and play

7:05

a big role in the problems that

7:10

we do have. But I think all of

7:10

us are contributing in some way,

7:14

and just increasing that

7:14

awareness of the issue.

7:17

It is incumbent upon

7:17

us in this field, to open the

7:20

door to how men are harmed by

7:20

these very same forces so that

7:25

they have some lens of

7:25

understanding they have money on

7:29

the table themselves, they have

7:29

things that they can lose. And

7:33

in addition to the fact that

7:33

many of the folks around them

7:36

that they care deeply about the

7:36

women in their lives that they

7:40

love, are also extra vulnerable

7:40

to this kind of harm, maybe not

7:44

from them, but from other men in

7:44

our culture, who had been raised

7:48

with these notions of

7:48

masculinity equating to power

7:53

over and violence.

7:55

I think that's

7:55

a really powerful takeaway for

7:57

your, essentially, this

7:57

movement, the messages that men

8:02

are receiving are twofold,

8:02

working against actually pulling

8:06

men to the table. On the one

8:06

hand, we're saying, You are bad,

8:10

you are the problem. And also,

8:10

like, why aren't you here doing

8:15

this really hard, vulnerable,

8:15

intense work with us, right,

8:19

that doesn't set anybody up for

8:19

success? Like I think about if

8:24

that were the messages I was

8:24

receiving from a community like

8:27

there's, there's no way in which

8:27

I would want to engage in that

8:32

work or be a part of that, in

8:32

order to feel a part of it, you

8:36

need to feel like you're

8:36

welcomed as as your whole self

8:39

and its inherent goodness, to

8:39

even be open to that

8:43

conversation or to feel like

8:43

you're part of the solution.

8:46

One of the things

8:46

that is so endemic within

8:49

American culture in particular,

8:49

there's this weird dynamic that

8:53

occurs, and a friend of mine and

8:53

I used to call it who's got the

8:58

longest ponytail, right? Like,

8:58

how can I be the most pro

9:02

feminist ally possible? Women,

9:02

who I've encountered who are

9:07

like, hey, you know, like, I

9:07

don't want to feminize dude,

9:12

necessarily, I don't want

9:12

somebody who's like going to

9:14

show up more feminine. I want

9:14

someone who's going to show up

9:19

authentic. What what

9:19

authenticity requires of us is

9:25

stepping outside of that

9:25

dualistic notion of reality is I

9:31

am a very complex being. i i

9:31

comprise a spectrum of emotions

9:38

and beliefs and thoughts and

9:38

feelings that go beyond being

9:44

pigeon holed into either bad

9:44

actor, or supersweet, never

9:51

causing a harm to a speck of

9:51

dust even we have very limited

9:57

patience or tolerance for the

9:57

complaint. City of what human

10:01

beings bring into all of our

10:01

relationships into all of our

10:05

identities. And I think this is

10:05

one of the gifts that trans

10:10

folks particularly have brought

10:10

to us is, is this, like, we're

10:14

not gonna, we don't fit into

10:14

that. And we won't, we won't be

10:20

pigeonholed and we belong. And I

10:20

think this is at the core of why

10:24

so many men have a hard time

10:24

finding a place in this

10:28

movement, or in this work and

10:28

violence, inherently critical to

10:34

me as a human being is that I

10:34

have a place to belong, we have

10:39

been sold a story that says, in

10:39

order for you to belong, you

10:44

have to perform this script in

10:44

this way. What I think the

10:49

gender identity expansion

10:49

Movement has done for us is to

10:54

blow those doors off and just

10:54

say, yeah, actually, you can fit

10:58

anywhere on this spectrum, and

10:58

you still belong. And that is so

11:03

threatening to the folks who

11:03

demand that that script be

11:08

adhered to performed correctly.

11:08

And that that is our license.

11:15

Trouble.

11:16

You know, what

11:16

I'm hearing word is, if you

11:20

cannot show up as your whole

11:20

authentic self, the easiest, or

11:26

like, the most natural thing to

11:26

do is to disengage, right, like,

11:30

if you're not welcomed, it's

11:30

hard to be in that space. And I

11:34

totally can relate and agree to

11:34

that. And I wonder, you know, or

11:38

you have been doing this work in

11:38

this predominantly female

11:42

movement for a very long time.

11:42

And I can imagine that you've

11:47

often found yourselves yourself

11:47

in situations where you were the

11:52

only male identified individual

11:52

at the table. And I'm curious,

11:58

like, how that experience has

11:58

been like for you how that's

12:00

played out for you. And were

12:00

there things that made that more

12:04

or less welcoming, or

12:04

contributed to your ability to

12:08

engage in that conversation, I

12:08

feel like there aren't, we know

12:14

that there aren't many men in

12:14

this movement, and the men that

12:16

are here, don't stay for a long

12:16

time. And so I think you have a

12:21

very unique perspective, having

12:21

that identity and longevity at

12:26

the same time,

12:28

there have been very

12:28

powerful women who have hung

12:34

with me, you know, and who are

12:34

very both patient and also in

12:40

their own authentic power,

12:40

extended to me the invitation to

12:45

show up as who I am

12:45

authentically, and to recognize

12:49

that I'm neither saint or savior

12:49

or toxic dude, just by virtue of

12:55

being in the room, what I am

12:55

worth, that I bring to this

13:01

effort to this work that we're

13:01

all doing is dependent upon the

13:05

everyday choices that I bring,

13:05

and you know, that every day

13:08

actions that I demonstrate,

13:08

take, if it weren't for those

13:13

folks, who were tenacious

13:13

friends, you know, like

13:18

tenacious friends of mine, that

13:18

I probably wouldn't have stuck

13:22

around. There's a unique role

13:22

that is not inhabited by women

13:29

in this work, you know, not in a

13:29

power over dynamic, right. But

13:34

in in demonstrating a power with

13:34

a power within dynamic in

13:39

whatever group or community that

13:39

I happen to be engaged with, had

13:44

I resorted to either feeling a

13:44

victim because I was unique in

13:50

being one of the only male

13:50

identified folks in the room, or

13:53

had I been put on a pedestal.

13:53

And given some kind of extra

13:59

privilege, because I was the

13:59

only person in the room, like be

14:03

either one of those things would

14:03

have driven me out. But boy, the

14:07

power of being given permission

14:07

to show up as to who I

14:14

authentically AM, has been a

14:14

gift to me. And I think it's

14:17

been a gift to the movement has

14:17

certainly has been a gift to the

14:23

men that I have worked with over

14:23

the last 15 years who have been

14:27

in abusive, you know, that have

14:27

caused harm in their

14:29

relationships.

14:30

Yeah, that's

14:30

such great advice to myself and

14:36

other female identified folks in

14:36

this movement who are kind of

14:40

scratching their heads about how

14:40

we can bring more men in right

14:43

inclusivity of your authentic

14:43

self. It's so important. And I

14:49

want to shift gears a little bit

14:49

here and talk about how do you

14:53

think we find these neutral

14:53

spaces where these conversations

14:57

can begin to happen and really

14:57

feel exciting accessible to men?

15:01

That's, that's a

15:01

great question, Jessica. And

15:04

that's something that all

15:04

through my own life as male, who

15:09

is who has historically looked

15:09

for places to make sense of

15:15

masculinity and my manhood, and

15:15

also like, I really like talking

15:19

about feelings. It's like one of

15:19

my favorite things. I think the

15:22

reality is, like, a lot of those

15:22

places they don't, they don't

15:25

really exist. Or if they do

15:25

exist, they're kind of, you

15:30

know, hidden, or they're small

15:30

little pockets here and there.

15:33

But for the most part, you know,

15:33

I, I haven't seen a whole lot of

15:37

groups around, hey, here's a

15:37

space where men can, you know,

15:41

come be comfortable together and

15:41

be vulnerable, and share your,

15:44

you know, feelings and really

15:44

connect with one another, even

15:47

though that's something that

15:47

like, I think, most if not all,

15:52

men can benefit from

15:52

tremendously. That was something

15:56

that, you know, when I became a

15:56

parent, for the first time back

15:58

in 2016, that transition into

15:58

parenthood, man it is, is

16:04

something it is like, it is so

16:04

challenging. And you know, I

16:09

hear people who are like, oh, yeah, you know, it's not that bad. It's, you know, it's been

16:11

pretty easy. It's pretty smooth.

16:14

And I'm like, Okay, that's

16:14

great. And like, I know, there's

16:17

a list of things going on that

16:17

are challenging. And if you

16:20

haven't encountered that yet,

16:20

like you will, it's definitely

16:24

it changes your whole life

16:24

around in a really beautiful,

16:28

meaningful, challenging way. And

16:28

all those things can be true.

16:33

And I think that it's this

16:33

perfect opportunity. For, hey,

16:37

here's the time where like,

16:37

people are looking like, it's

16:41

hard, like pretty much across

16:41

the board. It's a challenging

16:43

time. And people are looking for

16:43

support for connection. There's

16:48

been, I think, as a society,

16:48

there's been more and more of

16:51

this push to get fathers

16:51

involved in their caregiver

16:55

roles. But I think one of the

16:55

pieces that's really missing

16:58

from that is, hey, we want you

16:58

to get more involved. We want

17:00

you to like open up, talk about

17:00

your feelings, we want you to

17:03

have friends, but good luck, you

17:03

know, go go do it. And it's

17:07

like, in a beautiful world.

17:07

Sure. Yes, exactly. But we need

17:12

systems and organizations and

17:12

groups to kind of, you know,

17:15

provide those opportunities to

17:15

really kind of like, you know,

17:18

as a man who grew up in this

17:18

society, like, I wasn't

17:20

necessarily taught like how to

17:20

process emotions, other people

17:25

and like how to be with other

17:25

men and connect with one

17:27

another. That's just, that's not

17:27

something that is really taught,

17:31

developing that level of like

17:31

social emotional intelligence,

17:34

or empathy. Those are things as

17:34

simple as very similar to how

17:39

we're teaching people how to throw a baseball, and how to ride a bike and how to read and

17:41

how are we teaching people to do

17:45

those kinds of things. And so

17:45

when we started Dads Guild, it

17:48

was one of those opportunities

17:48

where it's like, hey, here is a

17:51

time where folks can come

17:51

together, they they they're

17:54

looking for support, they're

17:54

being told to step into the

17:57

roles with I'm not really sure

17:57

how to do it here, here is a

18:00

space that people can kind of

18:00

lean into, and build those

18:04

connections with, with other men

18:04

to lean more into their roles as

18:08

caregivers.

18:10

So Keegan, it

18:10

seems there that developing

18:13

those spaces for men to have

18:13

that authentic vulnerability

18:18

and, and do some of that social

18:18

emotional learning is with

18:23

alongside other men who are also

18:23

doing that work and learning is

18:27

is really key here. And these

18:27

conversations, like my, my key

18:31

takeaway from what you just

18:31

said, is, if we want to

18:35

influence men, we need to

18:35

provide them with that, that

18:39

space, to do it together, right

18:39

in community, you know,

18:43

relationships that men have with

18:43

other men. I think that is

18:49

probably a key here and how we

18:49

get more men involved in this

18:53

work, right?

18:54

the script needs to

18:54

be rewritten. And that's why I

18:57

think so many of the more

18:57

effective intervention programs

19:01

that work with men that cause

19:01

harm are done most often in a

19:06

group setting, in the process of

19:06

learning, that that script was,

19:12

first of all, two dimensional

19:12

and not very real. And that it

19:18

was something that while it gave

19:18

us privilege, we never had the

19:24

opportunity to sit down and

19:24

account for the harm that has

19:28

caused us to, I think when we

19:28

have that experience with other

19:31

men, and has a way of like,

19:31

breaking through the shell of

19:36

ego, that tends to kind of keep

19:36

us from ever examining that.

19:41

It's so much easier for me. When

19:41

I see your stuff come up. It's

19:46

really easy for me to say, Oh,

19:46

dude, you're being and call you

19:51

out on that. But until I have

19:51

that circle, come around and

19:55

call me out too. There's no way

19:55

to get on top of this mountain.

19:59

You That's gonna make me better

19:59

than you actually this is more

20:03

of a journey path. And we're all

20:03

in it together. And we're doing

20:08

all sorts of different things in

20:08

order to survive and do well and

20:11

everything else. But really

20:11

what's going on is that we're

20:16

all trying to figure out our

20:16

place. And how do we do this?

20:20

Well, and now I'm confronted

20:20

with the fact that this lone

20:26

wolf image of I'm all powerful,

20:26

and I can do it all by myself,

20:31

is not only a myth, but it's a

20:31

myth that disconnects me from

20:35

myself. And it also makes it

20:35

incredibly challenging for me to

20:41

create community with anybody,

20:41

including my buddies, in those

20:45

learning environments, where we

20:45

start to understand the value of

20:49

relationships that are requires

20:49

vulnerability, requires

20:53

authenticity, that I can be

20:53

called out, or called in, and

20:59

not lose my license to belong.

20:59

And so what we've done at the

21:03

community level is to outsource

21:03

that accountability to a

21:07

criminal legal system that

21:07

serves as the collective

21:10

sanitary garbage man for our

21:10

culture, and saying, I don't

21:15

know I don't want to get into

21:15

relationship with this asshole.

21:19

I want to outsource to bring him

21:19

into a position of

21:22

accountability. Somebody else

21:22

needs to just punish that

21:25

person. And then punishment is

21:25

supposed to be the fix but it is

21:30

not.

21:31

well, yeah, it

21:31

seems like that male connection

21:35

and friendship and support is,

21:35

is really key here. But I also

21:43

know that that can be really,

21:43

really hard as adults to make

21:47

friends, especially in our

21:47

current climate and culture and

21:51

COVID, and all the things, it's

21:51

even harder for men.

21:57

Yeah, I agree

21:57

that it's definitely harder for

22:01

men, men have been raised in a

22:01

society where, you know, it's

22:06

word was talking about the lone

22:06

wolf or like, that was kind of

22:10

idolized those like, oh, being

22:10

the lone wolf not needing

22:13

friends, like kind of managing

22:13

your own stuff, you know, suck

22:16

it up, be a man, those kinds of

22:16

messages where that's, that's

22:19

what's ingrained in our heads.

22:19

You know, one of the things

22:21

that's been really interesting

22:21

in my work with men and fathers

22:26

is people being unaware of that

22:26

need in themselves to connect

22:33

with other people. I remember

22:33

when I first started doing this

22:36

work, I facilitated a monthly

22:36

group. For new fathers at a yoga

22:42

studio in Burlington, the

22:42

intention was to create space

22:46

for people to connect and share

22:46

and be vulnerable and just have

22:49

honest conversations about the

22:49

challenges of that transition

22:53

into parenthood. And I remember

22:53

like, the first day, one of my

22:56

first questions was, so what

22:56

brought you here, and pretty

22:59

much every person was like, my

22:59

partner made me my wife made me

23:03

and I was like, oh, shoot, no

23:03

one, no one actually wants to be

23:08

here to talk about their

23:08

feelings. They're being forced

23:10

to oh, oh, but you know, we we

23:10

did it, we met once a month for

23:15

nine months, and to see the

23:15

group connect and bond and what

23:19

they were sharing. And then at

23:19

the end of the nine months, the

23:22

risk, like the responses that I

23:22

was hearing from folks was, how

23:26

do we keep this going, there was

23:26

a hole in me that I didn't know

23:29

existed. And then I started

23:29

having these conversations with

23:33

you all in the space. And now

23:33

I'm very aware of that hole and

23:37

what's filling it. And I want

23:37

more of this. And I think when

23:40

that when that happened, it was

23:40

like, okay, so how do we

23:43

introduce these spaces and this

23:43

thing to men, when they don't

23:48

know they need it? Or want it?

23:48

And how do we present it in a

23:51

way that's, you know, really

23:51

speaking to their language? And

23:55

how do we do it collectively, as

23:55

I'm doing this work with fathers

23:59

and men and like facilitating

23:59

events and programs? I'm very

24:03

much figuring this all out

24:03

myself, too. Like I do these

24:07

things. You know, I always have

24:07

a joke of like, Hey, I started

24:10

Dakhil very selfishly, because I

24:10

wanted male friends and I wanted

24:13

to be talking about feelings.

24:13

And I very much use the

24:16

community for that I'll come in

24:16

and be really vulnerable. And

24:20

it's like, hey, just because I'm

24:20

the person who makes sure that

24:23

there's enough money to pay for

24:23

this kind of thing. That doesn't

24:25

mean I have all the answers like

24:25

I'm actually coming here for you

24:28

folks. Sometimes trying to start

24:28

something by being like, Hey,

24:31

we're gonna have a group where we're going to talk about our feelings that it's like, ooh,

24:32

for some people that might

24:35

really work. And for a lot of

24:35

people that might be like a heck

24:38

no, that is pushing way too hard

24:38

on my comfort levels. And so

24:42

we've we do try to provide as

24:42

many different avenues as

24:46

possible, whether it's like

24:46

coming out to a brewery in

24:48

connecting with people while

24:48

playing a video game or engaging

24:52

in a healthy activity like disc

24:52

golf or board games. Let's just

24:56

focus on creating a space where

24:56

you can feel safe, and then when

24:59

we're there Like having people

24:59

talk about like, what's really

25:02

promote vulnerability. And I

25:02

think what we found is that

25:05

people really dig it. I've had

25:05

conversations with with groups

25:09

of men, after a few weeks are

25:09

like, Hey, I've known you guys

25:13

for a few weeks and the stuff

25:13

we're talking about, I haven't

25:15

talked about with my friends of

25:15

30 years, I've just, I don't

25:19

talk about this with guys. And

25:19

then they, so then they go and

25:21

try to talk about their friends

25:21

from high school and elementary

25:24

school about these topics, who they're still in touch with, which is really rad. You know,

25:26

we're seeing a lot of research

25:29

out there now around the importance of social connections. And we're also

25:31

seeing a lot of research out

25:34

there around how men are really

25:34

bad at keeping their social

25:39

connections. I just saw

25:39

something the other day where

25:42

it's like, over the past 30

25:42

years, the number of close

25:44

friends that men have have cut

25:44

in half, that's really

25:48

substantial. It's gone from

25:48

like, I think it was like six to

25:51

three or five to two and a half,

25:51

like it's cut down by 50%, which

25:55

is pretty problematic. And you

25:55

know, you look at the research

25:58

on the benefits of having no

25:58

social connections. And we're

26:01

seeing that, you know, there's

26:01

there's a research study out of

26:03

Harvard, that was like 80 years

26:03

long. And they found that social

26:07

connections and those

26:07

relationships, and the quality

26:09

of those was a better predictor

26:09

of one's longevity and how happy

26:14

they were in life, more so than

26:14

like their social class, their

26:17

IQ, or genetic makeup, which is

26:17

pretty mind boggling. We've seen

26:21

research out of Johns Hopkins

26:21

that talks about how blood

26:24

pressure rates improve when men

26:24

suffering from heart disease

26:28

have the support of friends and

26:28

a spouse as opposed to just a

26:31

spouse. And there's also been

26:31

some research at the University

26:33

of Michigan that shows that

26:33

being a part of a social group

26:37

leads to a 67% improvement in

26:37

symptoms of depression. So

26:42

there's all this research that's

26:42

out there that saying, like,

26:44

hey, it's really important to

26:44

have these social connections to

26:47

have close friends, this is

26:47

really beneficial. And it's

26:50

really butting up against this

26:50

societal norm of men being lone

26:54

wolves of sucking it up and not

26:54

doing things, you know, not

26:57

leaning into the groups, which

26:57

not really a surprise, which is

27:00

why we see part of the reason

27:00

why we see suicide rates in men,

27:04

I think I believe it's four

27:04

times the rate of the suicide

27:06

rates of women. And it's like,

27:06

yeah, this is a big problem. And

27:10

I'm not saying it's the magic

27:10

cure that everyone just go have

27:13

friends, but it's certainly this

27:13

really big piece of the puzzle

27:18

that I think is getting a bit

27:18

more intense, a bit more

27:21

attention. But it's such a

27:21

critical piece that how do we

27:25

not only directly connect to

27:25

like, you know, men with other

27:27

men and foster those

27:27

relationships? But more

27:30

importantly, how do we read kind

27:30

of, like, create this or write

27:33

this new script of friendship

27:33

and social connections among men

27:36

and and what that can look like

27:36

and why it's important than

27:39

let's like let's de stigmatize

27:39

leading into community support.

27:44

Wow, you just

27:44

gave us so much, Keegan. I love

27:49

everything you just said and

27:49

add, you know, a woman with a

27:53

male partner. I love that in

27:53

your story of the start of Dads

27:57

Guild that, you know, there was

27:57

that little extra push from the

28:00

women in their lives. But then

28:00

once they got there, they

28:03

realized how impactful it was.

28:03

So it feels like one of those

28:07

key takeaways that that is an

28:07

easy thing for me to do is to

28:12

support and provide that space

28:12

and encouragement. I guess my

28:16

next question is, why isn't that

28:16

happening? What are those

28:21

barriers to creating those

28:21

authentic, vulnerable male

28:26

friendships that might not exist

28:26

in these spaces that are a

28:31

little bit more structured

28:31

Keegan that you're creating? Or,

28:35

yeah, what are those barriers?

28:35

How can we support this?

28:40

I'd love to hear

28:40

Keegan's thoughts on this too.

28:42

But I do think that one of the

28:42

things that Keegan mentioned

28:46

earlier is like getting together

28:46

and doing some kind of kinetic

28:50

activity together. I think

28:50

honors how men can enter that

28:55

space. The last thing that I

28:55

would ever want to do is go into

28:59

a support group. Just to be

28:59

honest, like I wouldn't want to

29:03

go in into a group where we're

29:03

going to be talking about only

29:08

talking about feelings. And

29:08

that's why I like my dream for

29:11

an intervention group is to do

29:11

it entirely on a ropes course,

29:15

because we kind of insist that

29:15

men have to go through this

29:19

really narrow door in order to

29:19

get into that space. And yet,

29:22

it's really not necessary,

29:22

right? Like, we can get into

29:25

that space. Standing on a

29:25

riverbank fishing. We can get

29:29

into that space, playing frisbee

29:29

golf, we can get into that

29:34

space, playing flag football,

29:34

all of those things we can get

29:39

there. But typically, it's

29:39

easier for us to get there

29:43

through some kind of kinetic

29:43

activity. When we're performing

29:47

in those kinds of physical

29:47

spaces. We confront our inherent

29:53

vulnerabilities. They become

29:53

they're on display, right? They

29:58

show up we make little errors or

29:58

mistakes. And that's actually an

30:03

opportunity for connection and

30:03

opening up into being like, oh,

30:08

yeah, you know, I'm just a

30:08

human. We need to honor the fact

30:12

that a lot of folks that have

30:12

been socialized male, are not

30:16

going to walk through that very

30:16

small little gate of of I" want

30:21

to have emotional connection

30:21

with friends." Yes, that may be

30:24

one of the things I want, but

30:24

really, I want I want friendship

30:27

and I want a place where like,

30:27

we can have fun, we can be real.

30:31

And, you know, hopefully I can

30:31

get some support in the process

30:34

too.

30:35

Ward was talking

30:35

a bit about how oh, gosh, a

30:38

support group? Like, no, no,

30:38

thanks. I'm not gonna do that.

30:42

And it's like, yeah, I think

30:42

that's a really common thing for

30:44

a lot of people. And I think

30:44

historically, a lot of times,

30:47

that's how like men's work has

30:47

looked as it is there. So I

30:50

think there's so few programs

30:50

and organizations out there

30:52

doing the work. And then a lot

30:52

of times when they are it's

30:55

like, here's, here's the one

30:55

group for men that meets at this

30:58

time, and we sit in a circle,

30:58

and we talk and it's like, okay,

31:02

that might work for some folks.

31:02

But how do we provide different

31:04

avenues in for people who are at

31:04

different comfort levels? Or

31:07

have different passions and

31:07

interests or their brains

31:10

function in different ways?

31:10

Like, how are we providing

31:12

multiple avenues in? You know, I

31:12

think it's easy for men to, as

31:17

we talked about, like a board, I

31:17

think you mentioned around, you

31:20

know, it's easy to have, like

31:20

reasons why you don't have close

31:23

friendships and one of those

31:23

things being time like, Oh,

31:26

we're, you know, we're so busy,

31:26

like we so hard to make time for

31:29

friends. And I think that's

31:29

there is some validity there.

31:34

And also, it's a really, it's a

31:34

really easy excuse, we can all

31:38

say we're too busy. One of the

31:38

things that I get really excited

31:41

about in our work here at Dad

31:41

guild, is that this is like a

31:44

really amazing opportunity where

31:44

you have a lot of folks who are

31:48

transitioning into fatherhood

31:48

are being faced with a whole

31:51

bunch of emotions and feelings

31:51

and challenges that they've

31:54

never experienced before. And,

31:54

you know, where do they go for

31:59

that? It might be easy for a guy

31:59

to be like, hey, it's important

32:03

you take care of yourself and

32:03

have some good friends, make

32:05

sure you do that, then turn it

32:05

to Okay, well, you know, how

32:09

would this be supportive of your

32:09

partner to have someone outside

32:12

of them to, to rely on and to

32:12

share what's going on in your

32:17

life within processings? How

32:17

might that benefit them? And

32:21

then also, how does this benefit

32:21

your children? Do you want your

32:23

children growing up? Without

32:23

friends? Hey, you've seen the

32:27

research, you know that having

32:27

friends makes you happier, and

32:30

you live longer and lower rates

32:30

of depression helps lower blood

32:34

blood pressure? Do you want your

32:34

kids to experience those

32:37

benefits? Or do you not because

32:37

guess what they're watching you.

32:41

And the third watching you, when

32:41

they're seeing that you're not

32:43

doing that, there's a pretty

32:43

good chance, they're not going

32:45

to see that as something that we

32:45

need to prioritize. So I think

32:49

it's something that if you're

32:49

making regular time to connect

32:52

with other people, and then you

32:52

can talk about in front of your

32:54

kids like, hey, actually,

32:54

they've done research that shows

32:58

when you have good friends, and

32:58

you talk about how you're doing

33:00

you live longer. That's part of

33:00

the reason why I'm doing this,

33:03

you should do. We all as dads

33:03

like we all want our kids to do

33:07

well, we all want our kids to

33:07

live long, happy, healthy lives.

33:11

No one's stepping into

33:11

parenthood being like, you know,

33:14

I really want my kid to fail,

33:14

and I want them to be miserable.

33:18

It's like, No, we all we all

33:18

want what's best for our kids.

33:20

So I think it's this prime

33:20

opportunity to really reflect

33:23

Hey, how, how am I existing in

33:23

this world? How am I existing

33:26

within my partnership? How am I

33:26

existing within my family

33:29

structure? What am I modeling?

33:29

And what societal problematic

33:33

systems and other things am I

33:33

perpetuating by acting in

33:37

certain ways? And isn't this

33:37

Gosh, isn't this a really great

33:41

opportunity to reflect? And kind

33:41

of reinvent how I'm approaching

33:45

the world?

33:47

What do we do?

33:47

How does the person who doesn't

33:50

have Dad's Guild? Who doesn't

33:50

have that therapist or that

33:54

already established best friend?

33:54

Like, what what does that person

33:58

do? How do they start forming

33:58

these relationships?

34:01

That is a great

34:01

question, Jessica. And that, you

34:06

know, that's where my mind is a

34:06

lot is like, one How are we

34:10

fostering the development of

34:10

more interpersonal relationships

34:13

here within our own communities

34:13

and within the state of Vermont?

34:16

And then also, hey, when people

34:16

from other states are being

34:19

exposed, or they're, you know,

34:19

they're getting wind of hey,

34:22

this is What's this Dad Guild

34:22

thing? Or what's what are these

34:25

spaces that like, how are people

34:25

creating these spaces? I think

34:28

one thing that you just talked

34:28

about the importance of modeling

34:31

for our children, the importance

34:31

of modeling for our entire

34:34

society of like, hey, here is a

34:34

different way of being for men.

34:37

You know, we see so often men

34:37

being violent in movies or men

34:42

in political environments and

34:42

having lots of power that like

34:46

hey, here's Can we can we really

34:46

show this way of being that's

34:50

characterized by empathy and

34:50

vulnerability and love and

34:54

kindness and respect? That like

34:54

is a different way of being that

34:58

hopefully people catch on to you

34:58

in their life. Wow, that seems

35:01

really cool. And, you know,

35:01

that's that is part of our work

35:03

too is how do we kind of create

35:03

this model that can be

35:07

replicated in other communities,

35:07

recognizing that, hey, what's

35:11

working here in Burlington,

35:11

Vermont, is not going to be

35:14

what's working in some places in

35:14

Kentucky, or even like rural

35:18

parts of Vermont, you know, if

35:18

you go outside of Chittenden

35:20

County, how we're doing things,

35:20

and the way we're approaching

35:24

these topics might look pretty

35:24

different based on what the

35:26

makeup of the community is, and

35:26

who wants to come to things. And

35:29

so, you know, advice that I

35:29

always have is like podcasts out

35:32

there resources, you know, check

35:32

those out, just be listening to

35:35

things. And then I, I'm a firm

35:35

believer, I mean, I'm an

35:38

optimistic person. But I think

35:38

we are on this path of more and

35:43

more channels for like this

35:43

healthy masculinity, where we're

35:46

encouraging people to connect

35:46

and have fun, and really explore

35:49

some of these topics and safe

35:49

environments. So I think, really

35:52

be on the lookout for where

35:52

those places are. And in the

35:56

meantime, you know, just pay

35:56

attention to how you're thinking

35:59

and feeling about different

35:59

topics. And when that

36:02

opportunity comes to explore it

36:02

with someone go for it and the

36:05

leap of vulnerability, I think,

36:05

I think that's a really, that's

36:10

what we really need. Because I

36:10

think vulnerability is really

36:12

contagious. And I think if

36:12

you're in a group of people,

36:15

particularly men, and one person

36:15

starts kind of opening up, it's,

36:18

it's actually really amazing how

36:18

quickly, people can be like,

36:21

Wow, that really resonated. Me

36:21

too. Here's my stuff. And it's

36:24

like, yeah, this is, this is

36:24

good.

36:26

Yeah, I love

36:26

that taking that leap of faith

36:30

and getting vulnerable. If our

36:30

listeners can take just one

36:34

thing from this conversation

36:34

today, what do you hope that one

36:38

thing is? And I will throw it to

36:38

you first Ward.

36:41

I think what I would

36:41

love to leave people with is,

36:45

you don't have to show up being

36:45

some kind of overly feminized

36:52

male in order to be a positive

36:52

influence for good in our

36:56

culture. But we do need to be

36:56

courageous enough to break the

37:02

chains of that script that we've

37:02

been given that says, This is

37:06

the only way you get to show up

37:06

and have a license to belong. We

37:11

bring value in who we are each

37:11

of us as individuals across a

37:16

spectrum of gender identities,

37:16

and that that's so critical and

37:20

important.

37:22

Something that I

37:22

would want to leave people with,

37:26

I think that it's so important

37:26

to invest in doing this work

37:31

with men, how are we working

37:31

with the average man around? How

37:36

are we modeling a healthier

37:36

version of masculinity and

37:39

creating spaces, and I think

37:39

that that is an area of

37:42

community work that just needs

37:42

tons of attention, and needs

37:48

more of it. So never, never

37:48

underestimate the power of this

37:52

work and the ripple effect that

37:52

it can have on on communities.

37:56

Thank gosh,

37:56

thank you both so much for

38:00

sharing your work and your

38:00

authentic selves with us today.

38:05

It is just truly a pleasure to

38:05

be in conversation and community

38:10

with you both. And I'm so

38:10

excited about the work that you

38:13

all are doing. Just a big thanks

38:13

to all of you who are listening

38:19

in and being a part of this work

38:19

in this movement and violence.

38:23

You know, we we all have a role

38:23

to play no matter how we

38:27

identify. And there are these

38:27

really simple things we can do

38:31

each and every day that have

38:31

such a big impact on our

38:34

culture. And just really, really

38:34

grateful for you both and for

38:39

all of us to take the time to

38:39

think about authentic male

38:44

connection today. And a big

38:44

thanks to you, our listeners for

38:50

being with us today. We all have

38:50

a role to play in creating a

38:54

violence free VT. And there are

38:54

simple things we can all do each

38:58

and every day that make a big

38:58

impact on changing our culture,

39:02

and making it a place where all

39:02

are able to thrive. You can find

39:06

more information and notes from

39:06

today's show on our website at

39:13

vtnetwork.org/upliftconversations.

39:13

On our website there's also a

39:16

forum where you can share your

39:16

ideas and thoughts with us about

39:19

this episode, or what you want

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39:23

And if you

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39:26

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give us five star ratings and

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39:32

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39:36

and create a violence free world

39:36

where all people can thrive.