Episode Transcript
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0:06
Welcome to Therapist Uncensored. Building on
0:08
decades of professional experience, this podcast
0:10
tackles neurobiology, modern attachment, and more
0:12
in an honest way that's helpful
0:15
in healing humans. Your session begins
0:17
now with Dr. Ann Kelly and
0:19
Sue Marriott. Hey
0:27
everyone, welcome back to Therapist
0:30
Uncensored. I'm Ann Kelly.
0:32
And I'm Sue Marriott. And we
0:34
are wrapping up the conversation
0:36
about our book with the idea being that we
0:38
want to bring content of the book out
0:42
to everybody, whether or not you have the
0:44
book. It's valuable content, we believe. And
0:46
so we hope that you will get something out of it,
0:48
even if you never touch the book. But
0:50
also if you're reading along and things like
0:53
that, that hopefully this will be helpful to
0:55
you. We're really encouraging people to read it
0:57
in study groups. This is not a marketing
0:59
ploy. I promise the point
1:01
of the book is partly to build
1:04
community. And even if
1:06
you get one person and you both read it together
1:08
and then talk about it, I mean,
1:10
it's very easy. You just say, hey, let's
1:12
meet. I did this with
1:15
my oldest kiddo, just
1:17
the two of us. And we would read
1:19
and we would then come together at
1:21
a certain time and talk about the book. It was so
1:24
enriching. And the most enriching thing it
1:26
was, was about our relationship. We
1:28
made time for each other. It was an
1:30
excuse to get together. It was
1:33
beautiful. So it's a hard press
1:35
for whether it be this book or
1:37
any other book, actually, read it
1:39
along with somebody. It'll help you finish it and it'll
1:41
help you get the most out of it and it'll
1:43
build your relationships. So the other two,
1:45
you might have already caught, if not, feel free
1:47
to listen to the last two episodes. We
1:50
covered the beginning and then the middle. So
1:52
the last third of the book, I
1:54
described the second third as one of
1:56
my favorites. The last third
1:58
is definitely my favorite. Oh, wow, we
2:01
can't have three favorites. Well, it
2:03
was deepening or building security first
2:05
in one chapter within you, just
2:07
the focus on the individual. Then
2:09
the next chapter is deepening
2:12
security between us where we took
2:15
all this work and really applied it to
2:17
relationships. And then the
2:19
last one is deepening security among us
2:21
where we take all the information and
2:24
hopefully make it come alive and how you
2:26
could use it in how we could all use
2:28
this work more in society. So that's the
2:30
overview. Let's step into specifics. What
2:33
did you like about deepening security with us?
2:36
It's not like
2:38
I think we're so great and we're not somebody that
2:40
goes around saying we did such a good job. But
2:43
it's also healthy if we did something well
2:45
to say it. And so one
2:47
of the things that, you know what, guys
2:50
would not struggle with that. They would just be like, I
2:52
did this great job on this thing. Did
2:54
you see that thing that I did? You know what
2:56
I mean? I'm not criticizing
2:58
them. I'm saying we need to be better
3:00
at having this ego strength
3:03
to say it. Okay, so I'm saying
3:05
it now, which is that I really
3:07
love that what we do in the
3:09
book, kind of throughout, but especially in
3:11
this last section, is we go from
3:14
the intra-psychic is the way that therapists
3:16
say it, whereas this
3:18
self-reflection to the interpersonal. So it's
3:20
not just couples therapy at all.
3:24
It might be group therapy. It might be individual
3:26
therapy where the focus is more
3:28
interpersonal with the therapist. You
3:31
see what I'm saying? That like it's about what
3:33
happens between two people, not just, you
3:36
know, the depths of what's happening inside of
3:38
me. It could be coworkers. In fact, also
3:40
we've already gotten several reviews, which has
3:42
been so meaningful about that it's
3:44
helping people with their friendships, seeing
3:46
their friendships a little bit differently,
3:48
engaging in friendships a little differently.
3:51
That made my heart. Something that was our first
3:53
review is because we wanted it not
3:56
to just be about couples. We talk, in fact,
3:58
in the book, we talk about premiers. And
4:01
that everybody needs a primary and has a
4:03
primary and that doesn't mean that that's always
4:05
a partner that primary could be a best
4:07
Friend could be a sibling and
4:09
it's not always equal It means that you
4:12
might find somebody a primary and they're not
4:14
necessarily seeing you as their primary Oh, that
4:17
is so true Like even
4:19
like aging parents you might be the primary
4:21
for your aging parent, but they might not
4:23
be your primary That's a very easy example
4:25
very what it means is that who do
4:27
you call? Primaries who are you gonna reach
4:29
up and when something that when
4:31
you get the diagnosis? Who do you
4:33
call and it's really helpful to think about
4:35
it? And if it's not your spouse that might
4:38
be okay to you Absolutely. No totally right. It
4:40
might be your sister not your spouse or
4:42
might be honestly For
4:44
a lot like it might be your
4:46
ex spouse for a while That
4:49
as far as at least who you want to turn to because
4:52
that bond is very very strong and you're working on
4:54
a new relationship or in Polycules
4:58
and ethical non-monogamy there can be
5:00
multiple primaries or you can even
5:02
have different attachment statuses Within
5:05
your different relationships That's
5:07
really an important thing and we talk about how that
5:09
comes out Because what context you're in
5:12
can really impact what shows up in your
5:14
nervous system especially if you're in a relationship
5:16
over a period of time somebody that You
5:19
can go both ways somebody that was
5:21
secure But lands in a relationship that
5:23
activates a lot of insecurity can actually
5:25
move our internal process
5:28
Fortunately, the opposite is true and I
5:30
love this about couples work and
5:33
that's the next chapter But honestly,
5:35
I see it all the time
5:37
where individuals actually help each other develop
5:39
a much less
5:42
deeper secure way of being
5:44
together and It
5:46
actually moves the nervous system into
5:49
a more secure place And was
5:51
just laughing just to be Transparent
5:55
that we're recording this soon after the virtual
5:57
launch where we toasted with incredible
6:00
people and a wonderful audience.
6:03
So there's a tiny bit of champagne left
6:05
in my glass from our
6:07
one toast. So
6:10
I was sneaking over while she was talking and took
6:12
a little sip of champagne, so that's why she left.
6:14
Okay. Rest assured, it's like the four
6:16
sips, so it's not actually, I wish we could say that
6:18
we're tipsy during this, but we're not. We
6:20
could be though, because we are uncensored. We could
6:22
do whatever the heck we want. We could. And
6:25
another thing that we did about that in
6:28
that first chapter is we talked about different
6:30
therapies and different ways of
6:32
intervening that are non-traditional therapies, because all
6:34
of our growth does not happen in
6:36
the therapy office. Our growth happens
6:38
in a relationship. It happens
6:40
in our parent-child relationships, and it can
6:42
happen in dance. It can happen with
6:44
friendship networks. It can happen in
6:47
groups. So you'll learn what bottom-up processing
6:49
is. You'll learn about things that
6:51
you might have been curious about and how
6:53
they can affect your body, but also very
6:55
non-traditional ways that you can make movement, which
6:58
I think is extremely important. Yes,
7:00
that's something I also feel good about. We
7:03
don't, we get outside of just the white
7:05
European train track of how
7:07
people usually think about healing. We
7:10
just put our toe in the water. We wanna do
7:12
more of that, and there's people that do it way
7:14
better than us, for sure, but I'm
7:16
really happy that we're kinda moving in that direction.
7:19
And the other thing is that when
7:21
you were talking about relationships over time,
7:24
we make the point in the book that over
7:27
time, attachment isn't just what happens when
7:30
we're very young, and
7:32
that is a very hopeful statement, that
7:34
all our relationships across time, our
7:37
coaches, our peer groups,
7:39
our lovers, our partners, change
7:42
us and continue to rewire us, and
7:45
that we trend towards getting more
7:47
secure as we age, which
7:50
is wonderful. So that's great
7:52
news. And we love
7:54
this idea of earned security, that you might not
7:56
start there, But you work your way into
7:58
it. There are
8:00
people that have earned security meaning that the
8:03
don't and can buy it naturally. But.
8:05
Through. Your. Own very
8:08
hard work. therapy, Plumbing the depths,
8:10
looking at yourself, having new experiences,
8:12
new safe experiences relay suddenly that
8:14
year. really operating from a mostly
8:16
secure states that those folks actually
8:18
have a stronger ability to do
8:20
reflect a functioning and some of
8:22
the really great things that can
8:24
happen where that we're more aware,
8:27
but just because we've had a
8:29
practice that we've had a work
8:31
harder for it. So there's a
8:33
lot of hope in this related
8:35
to treatments and related. To this
8:38
progress. Over time. I'd. Like
8:40
to add the word. Engagement not
8:42
just read meant. Either the
8:44
word treatment. Even. Though that's what
8:46
he isn't. a purpose. Sounds like we're treating
8:49
a problem. that and broke his. And.
8:51
I think the concept as of that is a Pike
8:53
S and the Book. And lots of people's training
8:55
is like an hour and he and seeing. Where.
8:58
Building or Growing to. This isn't a
9:00
book about sixteen. And. He
9:02
is about ceiling does attachment.
9:05
Places. In the ass. That.
9:07
Continue to activate our body ways.
9:10
That are painful in relationships
9:12
for sure. But in.
9:14
Addition to his such as that
9:16
and rolling in steeping themselves as
9:18
people. And as a is our connections.
9:21
And like a headless saying, if we're not
9:23
growing, were dying that is like. True
9:25
and Life rates. I really love that
9:27
it reminds me of the book. Something.
9:30
About cure by he like flair.
9:33
Who. Really makes the same plane
9:36
as is such a beautiful
9:38
way of this focus. This
9:40
medicalized focus on cure. And.
9:42
this is also western european
9:44
way of thinking that the
9:46
universe a diagnosis and as
9:48
a cure and we need
9:50
a six it's verses this
9:52
embracing of all of this
9:54
beautiful difference and are healthy
9:56
adaptations to adversity and that
9:59
that been of us. And yeah,
10:01
it doesn't mean that we might not want to
10:03
continue to grow and be more expansive and the
10:05
way that we can be close with people and
10:07
things like that. But like you're saying that that
10:09
doesn't, we don't have to medicalize
10:11
it. Yes, yes.
10:13
Well stated. We want
10:16
to un-medicalize it. It's already kind of
10:18
medicalized. True. Diagnosis and all
10:20
those things. Well, we should bring us
10:22
to our next chapter. Often
10:24
people walk into a therapist
10:28
office per couple's therapy or into
10:30
happy hour or coffee with a friend
10:34
when trouble is brewing in a
10:36
relationship, focusing on what's the problem
10:39
and what's the answer. And oftentimes we're looking
10:41
across the aisle at the other person and
10:43
like, how do I deal with this person?
10:46
Or we're looking at ourselves, why am I
10:48
the problem? Basically, it's like this, it's
10:50
a tendency to look for a problem
10:53
rather than deepening our understanding what's going
10:55
on. And the
10:58
chapter about deepening security among us
11:00
is about how do you
11:02
recognize what's going on, not from a pathological
11:05
place, but from a
11:07
deep, compassionate, insightful, aha
11:09
place so that both
11:12
yourself and whomever it is that you're working
11:14
on in the between space, get
11:17
to a deeper landing. Is
11:20
that too obscure? No, no,
11:22
not at all. I love what you're saying. It's
11:24
like, we're not trying to pathologize, right? We're trying
11:26
to understand and take it to a different level.
11:29
Get out of the medical list. You know, there's
11:31
actually a sign of insecurity, honestly, for any of
11:33
us if we recognize that. And that is that
11:37
we have to find the problem to fix it when
11:40
we have to land in a fix
11:42
it place versus being curious versus
11:45
being mindful versus being
11:47
exploratory versus being
11:49
expansive. I guess part of
11:52
what we're saying is that we
11:54
can have extremely secure
11:56
relationships that are not necessarily
11:58
nice and neat. state, and
12:00
that doesn't mean they're pathological. They're not supposed
12:02
to be nice and neat at all times.
12:05
Because what happens is that we think it's supposed
12:07
to be nice and neat, we get all activated
12:09
that there's a problem, which then pulls us all
12:11
away from each other in a worse
12:13
state rather than, I think,
12:16
finding curiosity. Like
12:18
what we're looking for is finding
12:21
the state of curiosity and openness
12:23
and wonder and noticing
12:26
that it's activating, why. And when
12:28
we can move into that state,
12:30
we can really build so
12:33
much more insight in ourselves that's much deeper than
12:35
the current problem. Right.
12:37
And the story that we have about
12:40
the problem is the problem. So
12:43
he never does that. You
12:45
know, like for us to begin to
12:47
not trust our narrative so much, and
12:50
that doesn't mean not trusting yourself. As a
12:53
matter of fact, the better you get at
12:55
this, you're going to trust yourself more because
12:57
you're going to know what parts of yourself
12:59
to tune into and that you
13:01
can rest into versus all the
13:03
noise of these both implicit
13:05
models that we carry with us, but also just
13:08
our brain has a tendency when we feel bad
13:10
to make up a story and like make it
13:12
all make sense. And
13:14
especially if we're distressed relationally, that's
13:16
going to trend towards that
13:19
it's their fault or like you're saying, it's I'm
13:21
a piece of crap. You know, it's
13:23
like a hot potato. It's his fault or my fault or your
13:25
fault or her fault or somebody's fault.
13:28
And what you're saying and what the story
13:30
in the book is about is really
13:33
working to get back into that in between
13:35
space, which is where social engagement is, which
13:37
is where safety is, and which is
13:39
where oxytocin is. What do you think
13:42
that happens this chapter that of course is why
13:44
I liked it so much is we actually give
13:46
an insight into couples therapy and
13:48
we show the Mars model, which
13:50
you've heard about, but how it can be
13:52
used in a couple
13:55
situation, not necessarily only in
13:57
therapy, but to kind of recognize these patterns
13:59
and how they go together. And one of my
14:01
favorite parts of that chapter because it's so
14:03
real, it really is real,
14:05
and that is showing
14:07
what it's like for two people
14:10
instead of fixing a problem, getting this light
14:12
bulb and having this deep disarch, and then
14:14
all of a sudden really going deeper together
14:16
and to find this next part of
14:18
their relationship rather than trying to fix
14:21
and get back to where they were. There's this
14:23
movement to this deeper level that
14:25
these two individuals and
14:27
the couple have never been on and
14:30
it's because of the the work
14:32
in between, right, like an example
14:34
of somebody being really
14:37
difficult with a vulnerability and shutting that
14:39
down, becoming vulnerable with their partner and
14:42
that bringing them closer instead of
14:44
further apart. I get to
14:46
see that all the time and to
14:49
help and fight that that's really
14:51
real I think it's important. Yeah
14:54
it was really exciting to do that and you did
14:56
a fabulous job with the group therapy. Hey
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also, I'm sure, appreciate how important our
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gut biome is. And it's always really
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hard to figure out what to do
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can definitely hear it affects mood, it affects
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athleticgreens.com/therapistuncensored. So
17:33
and then the last chapter. The
17:35
last chapter is deepening security
17:37
among us. And that's where we
17:39
go societal. And that's
17:42
what we're talking about, about like, we all
17:44
need this right now, because there
17:46
is a lot of what we
17:49
call collective hijacking of our amygdala's.
17:52
Absolutely. So, yeah, under threat,
17:55
we go from connection and
17:57
social engagement to selfishness, basically.
18:01
because we've got to take care of ourselves.
18:03
Or here's the problem with empathy is
18:05
that you know part of what we
18:08
protect are people within our circle. So
18:10
I might be fine with you but
18:12
you threaten my kid I'll freakin hurt
18:14
you right? So all of a sudden
18:16
my circuits internally switch and
18:19
I will activate because
18:22
of empathy. So in
18:24
other words empathy and oxytocin aren't necessarily the
18:26
only good. I mean that they aren't only
18:29
good. They serve a certain purpose
18:31
and it's part of what's happening
18:33
actually. We begin to identify with
18:35
a political party or with
18:38
a group or with a position and then
18:40
people that are in the opposite position
18:42
or political party are seen as
18:44
a threat and the more
18:46
they're seen as a threat the more we disregulate
18:49
and begin to see things simplified and
18:53
very complex things become very easy
18:55
and we become stupidly certain.
18:57
We make a complex
19:00
problem very simple which
19:02
means that it's limbic thinking. I think
19:04
when you say stupidly simple we
19:06
don't necessarily mean stupidly intellectually. What
19:08
you mean is we become activated
19:11
in a really simplistic
19:13
way and it we lose access
19:15
when we're doing that we lose
19:17
access to our frontal part of our
19:20
mind where we can think wisely. So it
19:22
really has nothing to do with intellectual functioning
19:24
zero. It just really means oh
19:26
we can't find that part of us
19:29
that can think more complexly and we
19:31
need that part. We all need to
19:33
be thinking complexly not emotionally driven. Right
19:35
we're calling it the certainty virus and
19:40
it's a call towards moving
19:43
back into nuance and moving back
19:45
into discernment which
19:47
is using our full mind and it
19:49
also requires emotional regulation because we have
19:51
to then hear things we don't agree
19:53
with and listen and be
19:56
impacted so that we can stay in
19:58
the conversation and impact. This is
20:00
not a become a doormat. This
20:03
is not rollover. This is not dissociate.
20:05
And this is not go punch somebody.
20:08
It is that middle space which is way
20:11
harder than any of the things I just mentioned.
20:14
So that's secure relating on a community
20:16
level. Yeah, so one
20:18
of the things that we talk
20:20
about is unmasking what happened in
20:22
leadership for all of us. It's
20:25
not looking at one leader being bad and
20:27
the other leader being good. That's actually not
20:29
the case. Like any leader can
20:31
have an impact in their brain that is
20:33
not positive for us as a community. And
20:37
we talk about the impact
20:39
of leadership on our
20:42
brains can actually look just like brain damage.
20:44
Not leadership. It's the impact of power.
20:46
Oh, same word. You're right. You're
20:49
right. And you're right that it's not, this isn't a
20:51
political party. This really has to do with that. As
20:53
you rise in power that
20:56
you literally lose your
20:58
mirror neuron circuits where that
21:00
like if you walk in and somebody's uncomfortable, you
21:02
begin to just not notice and not care. And
21:05
then in doing that, then you're going to get less
21:08
feedback. And it becomes this
21:10
feedback loop where that you're around more
21:12
and more people that are subservient and
21:15
are just mirroring back to you what you
21:17
want, which again, it creates
21:19
this deficit. So yeah,
21:22
they call it that it's as severe
21:24
as a mild traumatic brain injury. So
21:27
one of the important outcomes of that is
21:30
that anybody that is in leadership
21:32
needs people questioning them. And
21:34
if you don't have healthy people giving you
21:36
feedback and challenging you, then that
21:39
is not disloyalty. We need that in order
21:41
to keep the other parts of our mind
21:43
activated and not to be on that. So
21:46
we getting back to the certainty virus and
21:48
it didn't matter which, which part of
21:50
the aisle you land on, you need
21:52
people giving you opposite feedback because the
21:54
only way we can work collectively with
21:57
our full mind, Just like in a
21:59
couple is. That we need Aspects
22:01
of been able to understand from.
22:03
Opposite perspective in order to
22:05
live to our fullest potential.
22:08
And. So it isn't about picking a
22:10
leader is about all of us really
22:12
learning how to securely relate one another
22:14
so that we build strong connections that
22:17
can be powerful. Learn. I savored him.
22:19
It is. I saw. Not.
22:21
Very long ago is that this
22:23
little tiny boats. And.
22:26
Underneath it is a real images. Is
22:28
this Huge way? It. And.
22:31
The camps in is it People
22:33
could only understand. That. Our
22:35
leader is the boat. And
22:37
we're the whale. And.
22:39
I thought about that and I think
22:41
of this we to quit dividing by
22:44
leadership. And. Instead, stay
22:46
on principle and policy.
22:48
And fighter connections or what we
22:50
all really see that we need
22:52
together. Then. That
22:55
in the one most powerful
22:57
ways. Of directing the seemingly
22:59
all want to see in our in our
23:01
country and our world. Now that's a really.
23:04
Super. Powerful in in Sicily. insisting.
23:06
it also makes me think it's
23:08
not just leadership, it's also whatever
23:10
groups you belong to, whatever sub
23:12
communities you belong to, whatever you
23:14
know, your that orientations, you know,
23:16
whatever collectivism that you're an. That.
23:19
You want to look for
23:21
discernment. You. Know the
23:23
more pressure you have to carry the
23:26
party lines and are you better not
23:28
say that are in a you might
23:30
get kicked off the rast that you're
23:32
you're much more vulnerable on those ras.
23:35
Because. It can become a circular firing squad
23:37
a little bit where this policing of making
23:39
sure that you're holding the right position and
23:41
things like that. And that's a
23:43
natural thing, so we're not criticizing even folks
23:45
that are kind of. Because.
23:48
the sulks an indefinite position are really trying
23:50
to protect something and ace think that they're
23:52
doing it right in there think are for
23:55
a cause is are holding a really important
23:57
value that are fighting death threats that but
23:59
they need around them. They
24:01
need people to keep
24:03
introducing nuance. It's like, well, this, I agree
24:05
with this, but I think you're stating it
24:08
too strongly. Like they need
24:10
the pushback. So if you're the person
24:12
that is the one driving and somebody's
24:14
pushing back, we're encouraging you to listen.
24:16
So as a
24:18
group therapist, if everybody in the group is agreeing
24:21
to something, my heckles go
24:23
up. I know something's up. There's no
24:25
way that six or eight or ten
24:27
or fourteen people can have the
24:29
exact same feeling about an issue. It's
24:32
just impossible. Unless we get
24:34
it a really black or white, right or
24:36
wrong. Right, but we think we all agree.
24:39
So when I hear that,
24:41
that's the first thing that I do is
24:43
I go for what's not being said.
24:45
Something's not being said and
24:48
we wait and we look for
24:50
it and then finally somebody will say, well, it's
24:52
not that I totally, you know, no, okay, now
24:54
we're cooking. Well, you know, I just, I didn't
24:56
want to say it because it seemed like everybody
24:59
was on board. So, okay, great.
25:01
And that is going to put you in
25:04
a much more sturdy boat because I guarantee
25:07
you once somebody says it, then you're going
25:09
to get more of it. And now whoever's
25:11
the leader, let's just say that was a
25:13
political group or a civic
25:15
organization. Now the leader is going to
25:18
have a much better idea where their
25:20
group actually is and the ideas
25:23
and stuff that come out of a more complex
25:25
system are going to be way better than, you
25:27
know, a whole bunch
25:29
of people chasing a flag, somebody carrying
25:31
one flag that is not going to
25:33
be sustainable because there's not the collective
25:36
mind in that. And
25:38
to wrap that is we have survived because
25:41
of our ability to collaborate and to
25:43
connect, not because of our
25:45
ability to have one position lead the
25:47
show because we
25:50
need everyone's strong mind to
25:52
solve really hard problems
25:54
like climate change or
25:56
immigration, no more student
25:58
protests. of anything without
26:01
complexity and we need each other and
26:04
we need to be able to tolerate
26:07
that really difficult part of ourselves
26:09
that wants to be right and
26:11
to wrap it all in one value and
26:14
then that's the answer. So
26:16
the last thing would be
26:18
that if you're listening and you maybe
26:20
recognize that you're caught holding
26:23
the flag and carrying the weight
26:26
that we are just sending you a lot
26:28
of love and thank you for working so
26:30
hard and this didn't
26:32
happen overnight and it's not up to
26:34
you alone to solve and
26:38
there are people that can carry this with
26:40
you and the more people that are carrying
26:42
it with you the stronger
26:44
your position is going to be. There's
26:47
a saying you can only go as
26:49
quickly as the slowest person and I'm
26:52
not necessarily saying that from politically. I
26:54
know that sometimes you have to push in
26:56
order to make change but I just
26:59
want to kind of I guess end it by
27:01
speaking to the person. A
27:03
lot of it is young people that are
27:05
so earnest and that are working so hard
27:08
and carrying the weight which is good
27:11
and you're making change and you're making
27:13
movement but just it's also like
27:15
this didn't happen overnight. It's not going to be
27:17
solved overnight. All you
27:20
have to do this is a Loretta
27:22
Ross thing that you're just one chain
27:24
in human rights and human justice. There's
27:27
a huge long heavy chain before you and
27:29
it's going to keep going in front of you
27:32
and we're going to just have to do it together.
27:36
I think that's it and if you have
27:38
been reading along with us the thing that
27:40
you can do for us if you appreciate
27:42
this content we're going to ask you to
27:44
please go to whatever your book buying
27:47
place is Amazon or
27:49
Goodreads and give us a reading and
27:51
review. It will help other people
27:53
find this content and we really need
27:56
you to Do that for us. We
27:58
Would really appreciate it. Then the
28:00
other thing is an item. work in
28:02
our tails off and we've been through
28:04
the slots and I'm sure that many of
28:06
you will be happy that you will not
28:09
have the here so much about the
28:11
book Now I'm sure that that's probably true,
28:13
but also we will be happy to not
28:15
have to be. It's a is vulnerable
28:17
in it's exposing to be. Putting.
28:19
Out something like this. It really
28:22
is and matters a lot, but
28:24
where I'm advocating that we take
28:27
a break and that we model
28:29
balance for every bussey, so we
28:31
might be playing some. Replays:
28:34
Or have a lot will have it.
28:37
Will this take as many replies as
28:39
we need to restore and rejuvenate and
28:41
just know that we're still here and
28:43
that we'll talk again or I or
28:46
thank you for joining us and. Kelly
28:58
Sumerian Podcasts.
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