0:02

What's up everyone? This is Anthony Pompeliano.

0:05

Many of you know me as Palm. You're listening

0:07

to the Palm podcast. Which is my effort

0:09

to find the most interesting people in the world

0:11

and sit with them for hours while I ask questions

0:13

in an effort to learn. We have no

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and family about the podcast. My

0:26

goal is to help millions, learn from the

0:29

world's most interesting people. So let's

0:31

get into today's episode. Zach

0:33

O'Malley Greenberg is an author and a

0:35

former reporter at Forbes.

0:38

I recently read the book Empire State of Mine,

0:40

how JayZ went from Street corner to corner

0:42

office, which Zach wrote, and I wanted to sit down

0:44

and talk to

0:45

him. Did JZ become a

0:46

billionaire? What were the lessons learned? What

0:48

insights did he take from writing the book?

0:51

And who else in the music in history

0:53

in sports or around the celebrity circuit

0:55

would be the next JayZ This conversation

0:58

is fascinating because Zach helps me break

1:00

down j z's

1:00

life, how he rose in the business world

1:03

and who else is following the same exact

1:05

blueprint. I really enjoyed this conversation

1:08

and I hope you guys enjoyed as well. Here

1:10

is my conversation with Zach O'Malley

1:12

Greenberg. Anthony Pomp

1:15

runs op investments, all views

1:17

of him and the guest on his podcasts

1:19

are show with their opinions and do not reflect

1:21

the opinions of Pomp investments. You should

1:23

not treat any opinion expressed by

1:25

Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement

1:28

to make a particular investment or follow

1:30

particular strategy, but only as an

1:32

expression of his personal opinion. This

1:34

podcast is for informational purposes

1:36

only.

1:37

Alright, guys. Bang bang, I've got Zach here with

1:39

me. I want to talk to him because as many of

1:41

you know, I'm very interested in the hip hop

1:43

culture and its intersection with business. And I

1:45

was gifted a book Empire State

1:47

of Mind, how JayZ went from street

1:49

corner to corner office, This is

1:52

the billionaire edition, and I found it

1:54

absolutely fascinating. And so, Zach, I thought

1:56

a great place to start was you've covered

1:58

music for a long time. Written about, you

2:00

know, all of the top musicians, some profiles,

2:02

you've written all this stuff about investing in business.

2:05

Why did you want to write a full book

2:07

about JayZ and kind of his exploits

2:09

into the business

2:10

role? Well, I think the

2:12

the short answer is he's the best

2:14

example of exactly that. Right? I mean, if

2:16

you were to take any musician in the

2:18

world, in the history of the world, who

2:21

has a business acumen, you would rank

2:23

them. I I think it

2:25

would be you you had had a hard

2:27

time finding anybody who would not put JZ number

2:29

one. So, you

2:31

know, actually, it turned out rather

2:33

fortuitously though because when I When

2:35

I first started writing this book, it

2:37

was because I got a deal from Penguin when

2:40

I was twenty five years old. I just got a cold

2:42

email from an editor over there. And she

2:44

said, hey, I read your stuff in Forbes.

2:46

Do you wanna write a book about JZ

2:49

or maybe Didi? And I said, you

2:51

know, sign me up. That basically,

2:53

it went like that. You know, I think

2:55

sort of right place, right time. But

2:57

I was doing the right thing too, which was writing about

3:00

the business of hip hop for Forbes. And

3:02

I had just started putting

3:04

up what was then my I don't know.

3:06

At the beginning of my annual tradition, hip hop

3:08

castings, the highest earning rappers

3:10

of the year, and, you know, was routinely

3:12

on the top. When the first one came out,

3:15

it was JZ, Ditti, and fifty

3:17

cent at the top. They actually did a remix

3:19

of the song. I get money called the Forbes 123

3:22

and, you know, that kinda kicked off my

3:24

my career writing about the business pit top.

3:26

So you know, I think diddy

3:29

diddy is definitely up there in terms of business

3:31

acumen. But, you know,

3:34

diddy is almost like somebody who

3:36

It was almost like if Richard Branson had a sideline

3:38

as a rapper, you know. It's just

3:40

kind of, like, ancillary. Like, the the wrapping

3:42

is ancillary to his business career. He

3:45

he's so plainly focused on the business.

3:48

And, you know, JayZ really I mean, you

3:50

could also put him up there with any artist in terms

3:52

of Number one albums. I think he's got more number

3:54

one albums than any solo artist in

3:56

the history of the world. He's only behind the

3:58

Beatles in terms of, you know, musical

4:01

acts. So The

4:03

way that he was able to take that musical

4:05

energy and parlay into the business world

4:08

is just second to none. And I think I

4:11

think what's been really cool is watching over

4:13

the past, you know, decades since then, seeing

4:16

how he's evolved, you know, even after

4:18

he had gotten to this lofty place, He's

4:21

continued to get bigger and bigger and bigger.

4:23

And everybody has revised the book every couple of years.

4:25

So, you know, most

4:26

recently, the billionaire edition, which was a year about

4:28

a year ago. So what's fascinating

4:30

about this is you

4:32

put the subtitle of the book how JZ went from street

4:35

corner to corner office. And in a recent

4:37

song that DJ Callard put out, God did.

4:39

He says the following. He says, judge it, how

4:42

you judge it, say we go on corporate. No.

4:44

We just corner boys with the corner office.

4:46

Which I'm not gonna say that he took that

4:48

from the book and then put it into the song, but it's

4:50

very much a theme of his life. And

4:52

one of the the big takeaways that I had

4:54

from the book was literally one of the the

4:56

first big ideas I took out was this evolution

4:59

is the mark of ever great success. And

5:01

he started out selling drugs, but now has transformed

5:03

himself into this you know, huge businessman.

5:07

What do you think drove that? Was it

5:09

kind of the street credibility and and

5:11

the street mentality that made him success full?

5:13

Was he always going to be successful without

5:15

the music? Like, kinda unpack a little

5:17

bit as to, like, why is he the one

5:19

who was able to do this out of all of the thousands

5:21

of rappers over last thirty years that that

5:23

didn't achieve the same amount of success that

5:25

JZ

5:26

had? Yeah. You know, I mean,

5:28

JZ above all is very honest. In

5:31

his lyrics, which is I think kind of

5:33

unusual. You know, a lot of people

5:35

brag. A lot of people, you know,

5:37

bluff. But if you go through his

5:41

You know, it's if you find a lot of sort

5:43

of instances where,

5:45

you know, when you check the facts,

5:47

like, it's actually true. Whatever

5:49

he is boasting in lot of his songs, but

5:51

the boasting he makes are often true.

5:54

So, you know, I think he he would say he

5:56

has said in many he was lucky

5:59

because a lot of his peers are

6:01

dead or in JayZ, and I think that's why he's focused

6:03

a lot on criminal justice reform.

6:05

That kinda he recognizes that he could have been

6:08

a statistic. You know, we had a few

6:11

near death experiences, you

6:14

know, kind of, like, in

6:16

and out with the law, you know, never really

6:19

got got in trouble for

6:20

anything. You know, I mean, he's had

6:22

legal issues in the past,

6:23

but you know, never did any any

6:25

serious time or anything like that. But,

6:28

you know, I think, you know, there there's that

6:30

element. There's the there's the lucky and good. Right?

6:33

And the good is, you know,

6:35

I think first and foremost, he has this incredible

6:37

lyrical ability, you

6:39

know, in writing the book their stories

6:42

and there were, you know, like, JayZ has his

6:44

reputation for he

6:46

never writes down his rhymes. He just

6:48

he keeps them on his head. And

6:50

there was this one guy I interviewed a

6:53

a producer from the very

6:55

early days who who knew JayZ. He knew

6:57

this kind of reputation. He didn't believe it.

6:59

He was like, who can keep all those songs in

7:01

their head. So, you know,

7:03

he went into the studio with Jay and

7:06

Jay was just kinda goofing off with the with

7:08

the guys and, you know, the studio time an

7:10

hour or two, and the studio of the clock was ticking down.

7:12

And Bruce was like, yeah, with it, let's

7:14

go. And so JayZ like, alright. And and

7:16

he takes out this notepad, and he sort of, like,

7:18

you know, it's good. Like, writing in the notepad

7:21

and producers like, oh, man, you know,

7:23

he's he's totally full of it. Like,

7:25

he he writes the stuff down. This is all just some,

7:27

you know, some myth that he's put out.

7:30

And and so, you know, he

7:32

goes in his business verse. Very

7:34

clean, leaves the studio on time. And

7:38

and so this producer is going to to clean

7:40

clean

7:40

out, then and he walks into the

7:43

recording booth and and there's

7:45

the note the notepad and JZ left it and he

7:47

opens it up and it's totally blank.

7:52

So, you know, he

7:54

I think he he likes to he likes

7:56

to mess with people. In that JayZ.

8:00

you know, there is really, like, a cinematic

8:04

kind of aura to him and, you know, he he likes

8:06

to do things like that. So you know,

8:08

right off the bat to to have

8:11

these ideas that come out on

8:14

his brain, you know, and and into songs.

8:16

Is impressive enough and to be able to to just

8:18

commit them to memory. You know,

8:21

you you gotta think that that applies to other areas

8:23

of his life and and and business as

8:25

well. So you know, that's the creative

8:27

side. On the business side, you

8:30

know, he he just has his ability

8:34

you know, in writing of both people

8:36

we're talking about, you

8:39

know, he he plays these big a big chess

8:41

player. But he's not thinking about, you

8:44

know, what's my next move? My next move? It's like, what's

8:46

next move? I've got my next move. I've got my next

8:48

move. And, you know, so you could take something

8:50

like, him getting

8:52

a stake in the nets, which

8:54

happened, you know, I think in two

8:56

thousand three. And,

8:59

you know, if you, you know, if you kinda go through

9:01

the course of his career, you can see these other

9:03

little steps and you're like, oh, that's what he was after.

9:05

Right? It's like, Okay. He he he really

9:07

wanted to move the nets to Brooklyn and

9:09

had equity in the franchise that was gonna be worth

9:12

more. Oh, wait. He wanted a piece of the new

9:14

stadium, which is gonna be more than just basketball.

9:17

Oh, wait. He wanted to start his own sports

9:20

agency because he saw the the value in that.

9:23

Oh, wait, you know, now he's doing this stuff

9:25

with the NFL and suddenly you begin

9:27

to realize that maybe getting

9:30

a stake in the nets, you know,

9:33

in in two thousand three or whatever it was,

9:36

what he really wanted was to buy an NFL

9:38

team in twenty years. Right? And and

9:41

now we're starting to see that there there are

9:43

pieces being moved around where he might,

9:45

you know, he's been mentioned as

9:47

potential buyer for the commanders along with Jeff

9:49

Bezos, you know, maybe then doing something together. So

9:52

that's kinda how he operates and, you know,

9:54

I think one of the fascinating things that it's

9:56

hard to know is did he

9:58

did he actually sit out and say, like,

10:00

I wanna buy a football team in twenty

10:03

years? Or was he just, like, I have an

10:05

idea where I wanna go. And if I keep doing

10:07

things in that path, you know,

10:09

I'll I'll I'll get to some pretty interesting opportunities.

10:11

So But, you know, it I

10:15

think you'd have to you'd have to

10:17

have that what is it? Would you rather have two hundred

10:19

thousand dollars or lunch with JayZ. You know, you'd have

10:21

to you'd have to get that lunch with Jazzy to

10:23

to really find the

10:24

answer. One one of the things after reading

10:26

so many books about so many different people that is

10:28

a common theme, and it's not so stupid.

10:30

But they all work incredibly hard. They're all

10:32

willing to take very big risks early on in their

10:35

career. In this book, in particular,

10:37

you mentioned this idea that in the nineteen eighties,

10:39

he was willing to work for free to

10:41

learn the craft. And and what you wrote was

10:43

Though JZ today grosses millions per show,

10:45

he spent four months in nineteen eighty nine working

10:48

the hip hop equivalent of an unpaid internship,

10:50

wrapping for room and board, which consisted of

10:52

a spot on the tour bus floor and a free

10:55

pass at the buffet. And what I took

10:57

away from that is like nobody thinks

10:59

the guy who wants to buy an NFL team or owns

11:01

an NBA team or has rock nation.

11:03

Like, all these different things that were like, wow, JayZ. Literally,

11:06

was sleeping on the floor of a tour bus in

11:08

the nineteen eighty nine kind of

11:10

summer. And was literally learning the

11:12

music business. And what did you kind

11:14

of take away? Is the is the work ethic just stayed

11:16

with him over the decades? And so it's like

11:18

the same guy. It's just now he realizes how

11:21

to use cap on how to use his connections and kind

11:23

business

11:23

acumen? Or is maybe he

11:25

slacking off now? Like, what what's your read on

11:28

on him? I would say

11:30

he's lucky enough. I think he's he's definitely just

11:32

operating more quietly in a lot of ways.

11:34

But yeah, I think that same ethos of

11:37

sleeping on the floor and doing unpaid

11:39

internship. I mean, that is following us through his entire

11:41

career. So he you know, that was a

11:43

point in time where he was starting to have some success

11:45

as a hustler. But, you know, he his heart

11:48

was in music, so he was really trying

11:50

to make it work, and so he was on the tour with

11:52

Big Daddy Kane. And I think

11:54

maybe digital underground and two pockets

11:56

around there and, you know, so so

11:59

he he was rubbing shoulders with with some really interesting

12:01

folks in those days and And,

12:04

you know, but I think for him, it was all about,

12:06

like, let me learn this craft.

12:08

Let me figure out how this business works.

12:11

So that I can get out of the hustling game and

12:13

and do something that I'm really passionate about.

12:16

And after a while, you know, in his early twenties,

12:18

it didn't seem like it was gonna work. So

12:21

he he was having so much more success as a hustler.

12:23

It wasn't until he was twenty six. And

12:26

ADJ Clark can't really convinced

12:28

him, like, you you have to give this one

12:30

shot. You know, you have to put out one album and

12:33

just see where it goes. And and JZ's

12:35

plan was always to go back to being a hustler

12:37

because he didn't think the economics worked

12:39

in music. But when that first album came

12:41

out and he started doing well, you know, I think

12:44

he he kinda revised his his process.

12:46

But But that trait has remained, like, even

12:48

as he worked his way through the music business, you

12:51

know, one of things that came up in in doing

12:53

my interviews for the book was everybody

12:56

said, JayZ just

12:58

asked so many questions. You know, he was always

13:03

wanting to to accumulate more knowledge,

13:05

you know. I like it to a hermit crab.

13:07

Like, he takes other bits of knowledge and adds it to

13:09

his shell, you know, and then and then

13:11

he kinda moves on to to the next. So

13:13

he he absorbed everything he could from his

13:15

early music mentors And, you know,

13:18

and within ten, fifteen years, his

13:20

mentors were like, you know,

13:22

Warren Buffett and, you

13:24

know, Bono. So so

13:27

he he was able to kind of keep,

13:29

you know, moving up and and and meeting,

13:31

you know, more and more interesting people and absorbing

13:34

everything he could from them. But,

13:36

you know, again, that's that's the same kind

13:38

of mechanic as as doing

13:41

the thing for free. Like, you're sitting there, you're accumulating

13:43

knowledge, and and, you know, the

13:45

the the value comes in in what you do with

13:47

it. Yeah. One one of the big

13:49

takeaways I had from the book also was

13:51

a necessity as the mother of invention. And

13:54

in the book, you write with

13:56

JayZ debut album nearly complete.

13:58

He and Damon Dash shopped its all the major record

14:01

labels, but there were no takers. And I think one of the

14:03

stories that people have heard over time is, like, own the

14:05

equity, build your own thing, go direct. Like,

14:07

all these themes that now kinda seem to re bubble up

14:09

and society, especially in in in the

14:11

tech world, they didn't necessarily

14:13

want to do that. It's just they didn't have any

14:15

other options. And then thought it was

14:17

pretty telling that they also named

14:19

it Rockefeller records. And it

14:22

JayZ, I think, growing up, I was like, does that have to do

14:24

anything with, like, John Rockefeller? Or is that just, like,

14:26

you know, similar name. But you

14:28

really call out and you say that no, they

14:30

absolutely That's what they wanted to do. As they

14:32

wanted to name after the world's first billionaire, and they wanted

14:34

to evoke images of the rock fellow families

14:37

enduring dynasty, which tells me

14:39

that they really were thinking quite big

14:41

even early on when no one else believed in what

14:43

they were doing.

14:45

Totally. I would also say it's a a triple entendre.

14:47

It's, you know, rock, like,

14:49

all, rock you, like, rock to fella.

14:53

A a fellow, you know, then

14:56

I would also say it's a reference to the

14:58

Rockefeller drug laws. You know, there's

15:00

a certain irony that that

15:02

some of the money they came in with was from

15:04

sort of skirting the laws

15:07

of, you know, the regular drug laws. That kind of thing.

15:09

So but, yeah, I think above all, like you say, it's the

15:11

Dynasty element, and

15:13

and Dynasty is a word that that

15:15

JZ used a lot. It's

15:18

it's interesting though, like, JZ

15:20

has this huge proponent of equity,

15:22

you know,

15:25

getting skin in the game, that sort of thing.

15:27

Yeah. He he was shopping that record.

15:29

Yeah. He wanted to get a deal from one

15:32

of the majors, but I think they were

15:34

all too freaked out. I mean, this was in the mid nineties

15:36

and this is, you know, when things were getting pretty violent

15:38

with the East Coast, West Coast thing. And

15:41

there was, you know, all the parental advisory

15:43

wars and temper board, all

15:45

that stuff, you know. So there there was

15:47

definitely like like

15:50

a concern around the the subject matter.

15:53

And you know, on top of that, if

15:55

you go back to JayZ first album,

15:58

it's very

16:01

it's it's like kind of inaccessible,

16:03

like very rapid fire lyrics, you

16:06

know, it's there's no dumbing down,

16:08

slowing down. I mean, It's

16:10

twenty six years of his life packed into

16:12

into one album, you

16:14

know, with this sort of rapid fire flow.

16:17

And these, like, deeply layered

16:19

references and, you know, like, a lot of

16:21

hustlers slang and sort

16:24

of, like, obscure reference

16:27

fee, lot of a lot of film reference, stuff like that.

16:29

So I think

16:31

people didn't really think that it

16:33

would sell. And in

16:35

fact, I think, you know, ultimately, he's one

16:37

of his worth selling albums, but but

16:40

it did, you know, it it didn't usually go platinum

16:42

and when they went well

16:44

with it independently, it did extremely

16:46

well. Sold a couple hundred thousand copies. And,

16:48

obviously, the the economics are a lot better than

16:50

that than they are on a record deal. So you

16:53

know, by virtue of getting iced out

16:56

from the major, you know, music

16:58

labels, they were able to

17:00

to have ownership. And and that's a theme

17:03

that kind of, like, is pervasive throughout

17:05

hip hop. And I think that's why hip hop

17:07

as a genre. The most successful artists are

17:09

obsessed equity. Because whether

17:11

it's, you know, Puffy starting his own clothing

17:14

line or JCPenney's

17:16

own record label, you know,

17:19

they found that, you know,

17:21

they they weren't necessarily gonna get the kind of endorsement

17:23

deals that they that they thought were fair, so they

17:25

could start their own things and create more value that

17:27

way. But

17:30

but yeah. I mean, I think it's really sort of underreported

17:33

the fact that, you know, like, JZ and

17:35

Damon Dash went to this

17:37

Italian Portswear company

17:40

called ICEberg that they really liked and

17:42

and occasionally wrapped up about and, you know, they

17:44

wanted an endorsement deal. And the executives

17:46

basically, like, Oh, we'll give you some

17:48

t shirts, you know.

17:50

And and that's when they kind of decided to

17:53

go start their own. And and think JayZ more

17:55

than anybody has mass through the art of,

17:58

you know, if I'm gonna rap about

18:00

a a type of brand rather

18:03

than wrapping about an established brand,

18:05

that I'm not getting paid by or that I'm not

18:08

owning, you know, I'm gonna start

18:10

my home. So whether it's clothing

18:12

line or you know,

18:14

record label or later a champagne

18:17

brand, a cognac, you know,

18:19

that kind of thing. It's almost like he's

18:21

he's spun up this entire empire of things

18:23

that he can wrap about

18:26

so that he can kind of benefit off of the the

18:28

free publicity rather than somebody else.

18:30

So along these lines, there's a number

18:32

of controversies. I

18:34

think there's watches, there's champagne,

18:37

there's multiple things that he wrapped about, people

18:39

are like, there's no way he's wrapping about that without

18:41

getting paid. But the company or

18:43

him deny that there's a relationship, break

18:46

down, like, how what's your read

18:48

in terms of is everything he's

18:50

wrapping about likely? He's got some sort of

18:53

ownership directly or indirectly? Or there things

18:55

that potentially he just likes and doesn't

18:57

have a

18:57

relationship. Like, that was kind of a theme

18:59

in the book where it seemed like people had questions,

19:01

but there weren't necessarily always answers from

19:03

the companies or from him. Hey, guys.

19:06

What's going on? I hope that you're enjoying this conversation,

19:08

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there. Alright. Let's get back into this

20:54

conversation. Yeah. I

20:56

think that, you know, you couldn't possibly

20:58

own every single thing that he wraps about.

21:00

Right? You know, it

21:04

would be I mean, you'd have to have trillions

21:06

of dollars probably to own every every company

21:08

that puts up the products that you're asking about.

21:10

But certainly in key categories. He's

21:12

accumulated more and more of them. And I think, you

21:14

know, as you alluded to the champagne is a really

21:16

exam interesting example of one. So

21:19

You know, that was a story that that

21:22

that I followed in writing the book.

21:24

And, you know, I

21:26

don't know. After years of being

21:28

a business reporter, you start to get a, like,

21:30

a sixth sense for, you know, that that

21:32

something doesn't smell right about this. And

21:35

and I just remember, like, watching

21:39

the the video for show

21:41

me what you got in. I think it was

21:44

South Kingston comes. I mean, it was two

21:46

thousand eight, I wanna

21:48

say, two thousand seven, two thousand

21:50

eight, something like that.

21:51

And

21:53

And I saw these, you know, these he's got these,

21:56

like, gold bottles. He's wrapping

21:58

about the ace of spades, champagne, and, like,

22:00

there's no way that he's not

22:02

he doesn't have some kind of interest in this company.

22:04

So as I was

22:06

writing the book, I kept kinda poking

22:09

around and, you know, nothing was really coming up.

22:11

And but then IIII

22:13

found myself up in

22:15

Harlem in this speakeasy

22:17

that used to be owned by a guy named

22:19

Branson Belgy who was, like,

22:22

a legendary hustler. Sort of the

22:25

the guy who brought fine champagne to

22:27

hip hop. He also happened to be biggie's

22:29

weed man. He was, like, the the provider of

22:31

the the highest quality bud to to all the biggest

22:33

reps are, especially in New York where started to find that

22:36

stuff. And, you know, you you wanted

22:38

that was it it was, like, acapulco

22:41

gold or chunky black or whatever it was. You get

22:43

all these strains and you know, brands who

22:45

would come through and and so he he was sort of like

22:47

a sommelier of weed. And

22:50

but then he would bring along model of of tattinger

22:53

or crystal or something like that,

22:56

you know, and and drink it with the guys. And

22:58

and, you know, that use sort of, like, the pipe piper

23:00

of fine champagne as well. And, you

23:03

know, III got to be

23:05

really close with them. And and so, you know, we're we're

23:07

sitting in his speak easy and And

23:09

I'm telling him about my dilemma. I'm like, what do you think

23:11

about this champagne situation? And he's like

23:14

he's like, well, I've got this bottle

23:16

of of antique gold that he brings it over.

23:18

And it's this gold bottle. It's the same as

23:20

the Armando Branach Case of Space Champagne

23:23

that JayZ is wrapping about and that's selling for

23:25

three hundred dollars. And he's

23:28

like, this antique gold, you know,

23:30

you can only get it in Europe, but it was sixty bucks

23:32

a bottle and looks pretty

23:34

similar to me. So basically,

23:37

I just I ran I ran

23:39

into a wall and I couldn't

23:41

get any more answers other than, you know, these kind

23:44

of theories. I just went to France.

23:46

I I arranged an interview at

23:49

the the Cartier Champagne headquarters,

23:51

and they took me on this Grand Tour, and,

23:53

you know, we went down into the cellar,

23:55

a hundred feet into the ground, and and

23:58

there in these racks with these gleaming gold

24:00

bottles of champagne, They

24:02

didn't have any markings

24:05

on them. And this is the same company

24:07

that makes antique gold, which I

24:09

think stopped being produced in two thousand

24:11

six. Our mind to bring you back started up

24:13

in in two thousand seven or or whatever

24:15

it was. And and

24:18

then that's what it was. The the video

24:20

of z, you know, holding these

24:22

gold bottles, you

24:24

know, happened in between. So

24:27

you know, I asked I asked these characters like,

24:29

hey. How did JC

24:31

start to to be interested in your champagne? And,

24:33

oh, well, you know, he found it in the mom and pop mom

24:36

and pop shop and York and just really

24:38

liked the taste. And so he decided to grab a bite

24:40

and that was it. So I went back to

24:42

New York. I did a little

24:44

more digging and and Yeah. I confirmed

24:46

my dates and I and so I wrote them back and I said,

24:48

how did he get how did he get the bottle

24:50

into his video if it wasn't out

24:53

when the video came came out, you know, how did he find

24:55

it into a a how did he find it in mom and

24:57

pop shop? And they said, okay. Well, we

24:59

do have a relationship with him, blah blah

25:01

blah. And and so

25:03

the book kind of you know,

25:06

exposed sounds very dramatic because it's not like

25:08

he was doing anything wrong. He

25:10

was just kinda trying to have a champagne

25:12

and drink it too. Right? He he wanted

25:14

to seem like a like a pacemaker, just

25:17

kind of recommending something nice and he also

25:19

wanted to get paid. So you know,

25:21

I I kinda blew the doors off

25:24

of that and there there was little kerfuffle

25:26

and and there was some controversy over

25:28

it and But then two years

25:30

later, he he

25:32

he announced that he had bought the whole thing, you know,

25:35

and and and

25:37

and it kinda it kind of I

25:39

think validated my reporting and and, you know,

25:41

that he had already had a piece in it and and

25:43

so forth. So, you know, he talked about JZ

25:45

being honest. In

25:47

this in one of the songs a couple years ago, he he

25:49

said that his champagne company is worth half a billion

25:52

dollars. And then I

25:54

think the next year, he he he

25:56

sold half of it to Louis Vuitton

25:58

for, I think, it was two hundred and fifty

26:00

million or three hundred or something like that. So

26:04

so LVMH now is the the

26:06

JV partner on Armani

26:08

bring yakuza space campaign. And,

26:11

you know, it's kind of like JZ's focus on equity

26:13

as comfortable circle. You know, he

26:15

he he bought into this brand, he

26:17

built it up, and then he kinda,

26:19

like, sold half of it back to a

26:21

big conglomerate to try

26:23

to try to help expand it and and to help

26:25

fund it. So a

26:28

little bit of a revision on the equity theory, you

26:30

know, better better to to own,

26:32

but also better to

26:34

have it.

26:35

A really big corporate partner who can help,

26:37

you know, with the with the bills when something gets up

26:39

in. What's funny is it

26:42

almost feels like he was flipping

26:44

products and brands. Even Rock Nation,

26:46

to some degree, right, is like this He

26:49

was able to go into def jam and kind of

26:51

eventually flipped that couple of times into what

26:54

became Rock Nation through a number of different business

26:56

deals. The champagne. He was able to

26:58

kinda partner with somebody who was maybe

27:00

not as well known or or not as

27:02

globally dominant. He's then able to kind

27:04

of make a couple of deals and then flip it eventually to

27:07

LVMH. It reminds me lot of, like,

27:09

what happens on the street? Right? And and

27:11

kind of understanding how to take products

27:13

and and work with different people and things like that.

27:16

Is that a theme of what he's been doing?

27:18

Is basically being able to gain control

27:21

of certain assets grow them,

27:23

and then understanding that look, if you're gonna have

27:25

a partner having LVMH as a partner is a pretty

27:27

damn good partner to have. And in some way,

27:29

actually having them involved puts him

27:31

even further on a pedestal, puts him even further,

27:34

you know, in terms of the the validation

27:37

of the tastemaker of the brand

27:39

of like who I think society thinks

27:41

JZ is

27:42

now. Is that part of strategy

27:44

as well? Yeah.

27:46

Absolutely. And, you

27:48

know, that there is this element of his

27:50

career that sort of reminds

27:52

me of know you hear about

27:55

in business school sometimes, there'll be a challenge.

27:57

Like, take this paper clip

27:59

and turn it into a car by the end of semester.

28:01

You know? And if you you trade the paper clip for,

28:03

like, I don't know, baseball card. If you hit the baseball

28:06

card for a CD, you train that's

28:08

and suddenly you have Volkswagen within

28:10

a few months. If you you keep getting a little

28:12

bit more with each deal, And

28:14

and I really do think that's how he operates.

28:18

But, you know, part of it is that he

28:20

can provide his own value

28:23

to anything. He buys and sort of, like,

28:25

when Warren Buffett buys Coca

28:27

Cola stock and the word comes

28:29

out, you know, then the stock goes up. If

28:33

JZ buys a champagne company, he

28:35

it's immediately worth more than

28:38

what it was before he bought it. Simply by

28:40

virtue of the fact that it is JZ who bought it,

28:43

and and and people, you

28:45

know, are more likely to to consume

28:47

it. So you

28:50

know, you can you can really pursue

28:52

AAA very lucrative strategy that

28:54

way if you keep buying things. And then as

28:56

as long as you get a reasonable deal and you don't

28:58

overpay, they're immediately worth more.

29:01

You you invest more time and effort

29:03

into them. They're worth even more than that, and then you

29:05

sell them where you sell half of them. And

29:08

it's a lot a lot better

29:10

strategies, say, than just

29:11

taking, you know, a

29:13

a few million bucks for an endorsement

29:16

deal. One of the most ambitious

29:18

things that you highlight in the book is this

29:20

idea of JayZ Blue. And

29:22

whether it was him or somebody on his team came up

29:24

with the idea of, like, let's create a color.

29:26

They work with a well known artist to create the color.

29:29

They basically protect the intellectual property.

29:31

And then it sounds like they basically went to bunch

29:33

of companies and we're like, hey, we have this color.

29:36

Why don't you put JayZ blue on,

29:38

I think it was a Jeep or a car? And

29:41

it sounds like they got close to actually

29:43

launching it and then the

29:45

automotive company backed away because they actually

29:48

were scared that JayZ Blue as a

29:50

color and and him as a person JayZ

29:52

overshadow the release of the new

29:54

car, which seems kinda crazy. Like,

29:56

what what was your takeaway in terms of

29:58

the ambition and and maybe even arrogance

30:01

of, like, we're gonna create a color and then we're gonna go

30:03

put this on all these things and we'll make money

30:05

that way. Yeah. This was sort

30:07

of, like, you know, the early to mid auto

30:10

industry. Right? US

30:12

auto industry, kind

30:14

of flirting with the future, but, like,

30:16

woefully, woefully

30:19

out of touch headed for,

30:21

you know, catastrophe during

30:24

the great recession. Right? And and

30:26

so, you know, I think at the time

30:28

people realized that hip hop was a big deal. They kinda

30:30

thought it might be bad, but they wanted to, you

30:34

know, interact with it perhaps if it could be advantageous

30:36

to them. They were a little freaked out still about

30:38

you know, the associations with violence, that

30:41

kind of thing. But but

30:43

yeah. So there was a a deal that

30:46

seem to be heading toward completion where

30:50

Chrysler was gonna create AJZ Jeep,

30:53

paint AJZ blue, It was gonna

30:55

come preloaded with every song he'd ever

30:57

written in buttercream leather interiors and

31:00

twenty two inch crummy's and the whole thing.

31:02

And And, you

31:04

know, he he was scheduled to fly

31:06

the Detroit to finalize the deal. And

31:09

at the last minute, you know, it got

31:11

it got kibosh, it got canceled. And,

31:15

you know, from what I from my

31:17

reporting, what I understood was that some higher

31:19

up got freaked out about his

31:21

past as a a drug dealer and

31:23

that, you know, that that could kind of

31:26

yeah. Like you said, I think I think that is exactly

31:28

it. This was gonna be the the Jeep Commander,

31:30

and and I think they were worried that

31:32

it was gonna be more about the

31:35

JayZ Jeep. And it was about the j you know, the Jeep

31:37

Commander, which was their new, you know, flagship ultra

31:39

luxury big SUV. So

31:42

yeah. I mean, that that that sort of thinking

31:45

is how Detroit, you know, kind of

31:47

almost went bankrupt. I mean,

31:50

because it did you know, some of the companies

31:52

got to be built out, that kind of thing. So

31:55

But there's a there's an interesting

31:57

lesson here too. I think

31:59

to go back to Warren Buffeti as this quote,

32:03

better to get a new boat than to keep patching

32:05

a leaky one, something like that. And,

32:08

you know, I think JZ was like, well,

32:11

I'm not gonna concern myself. Like, this

32:13

industry isn't ready for me. I'm not

32:15

gonna waste my time anymore. I'm

32:19

gonna move on to other things. And,

32:22

you know, and that's really what he did.

32:24

JayZ also didn't really talk about you

32:26

know, and and this was one of the

32:28

things that I dug up in my reporting.

32:31

And, you know, I

32:33

I think that with him, he has this

32:36

oral of invincibility. Right? I mean,

32:38

he's married to Beyonce. He's a billionaire.

32:41

Like, he's, you know, he's got

32:43

this everything's going right for him.

32:45

And he mostly, up

32:47

until really a few years ago, only

32:50

wrapped about the things that were going right

32:52

to kind of underscore

32:55

this image that he had. But

32:59

I think as an entrepreneur, you know, you

33:01

you go through things. I mean, you you probably

33:03

have more things that don't work out than

33:05

things that do work out. I mean, if you think about

33:07

a a DC. Right? I mean, if you if

33:09

you get one out of ten investments

33:12

that really hits, then, you know, you're you're

33:14

a great VC. But,

33:16

you know, you're not gonna talk

33:19

about the other ones will be switched. So I

33:21

I think I think with Jay that it's

33:23

important to realize that he has had his

33:25

failures, like any entrepreneur

33:27

And it's it's more about what you learn

33:29

from the failures.

33:32

You

33:32

know, in a way, it's more interesting than what you learn from

33:34

the successes because once, you

33:36

know, you combine all the

33:38

lessons from all those

33:39

failures, you could set yourself up for that greater

33:41

success, and that's that's certainly what he did.

33:44

Another part of the book hits on something

33:46

that I always talk about, which is like the person you marry

33:48

is one of the most important decisions of your life, but

33:50

I'm usually talking about it from like happiness

33:52

standpoint and kind of just like enjoyment

33:55

of people's lives. But you have two

33:57

excerpts that I wanna read real quickly. The

33:59

first is in terms of the entertainment industry,

34:01

it's the biggest merger. JayZ and Beyoncé,

34:03

you could possibly imagine. It's two superpowers

34:06

coming together. It's sort of Microsoft and Apple

34:08

deciding they can literally be in bed together, which

34:10

came That's a quote from music historian, Jeff

34:13

Chang. And then you've got another part here

34:15

where JayZ talks about and he says we exchange

34:17

audiences. Her records are huge. Top forty

34:19

records. And she helped Bonnie and Clyde

34:21

go to number one. What I gave her was

34:23

a street credibility, a different edge.

34:26

How intentional was this

34:28

versus like

34:29

No. They just fell in love, and then there was a bunch

34:31

of, you know, positive byproducts that

34:33

came out of it. Yeah.

34:35

You know, it's a it's a great question. And

34:39

there are definitely sort of arranged

34:41

marriages in in the in the entertainment industry

34:43

and and, you know, you get the sense

34:45

that some things are done just for convenience

34:47

and not for love and and maybe that there's

34:49

no real relationship there. But but

34:52

I do get the sense that that JZ and Beyonce

34:55

have an actual relationship And, you know,

34:57

at this point, they've been together for so long. It's

34:59

like, you know,

35:01

you see celebrity marriages dissolve you

35:04

know, by this point, if if there's not something

35:06

that real happening there, at the same time,

35:09

yeah, it's a great there's a great

35:11

synergy professionally. And

35:14

I think that the thing that that he

35:16

was talking about in that quote, you know, that was

35:18

true when they got married in the

35:20

late odds. And you know,

35:22

when I wrote my book, when I first

35:24

started writing it, they'd only been married

35:26

for for a year or two, and I just remember some people

35:28

were still like, Oh, right. Beyonce's

35:30

husband, you know. I mean, she was

35:33

so much bigger than him in terms of

35:35

overall celebrity and, you know, still is, I'd say.

35:37

But JayZ z was not

35:39

a household name sort of in

35:42

the international business scene when

35:44

they got married in the same way he is now.

35:46

And I think that,

35:48

you know, certainly musically, yeah, she had more of

35:50

a pop audience. There there's

35:52

a lot of synergies there. He had more of a hip hop

35:54

audience. He was like, some of them came over

35:57

and listened to his stuff and, you know, some of his

35:59

audience. Like, he gave her credibility, like, a

36:01

like a street cred that she maybe didn't have before.

36:03

But But I think the the big

36:05

the big lesson is on the business side. Right?

36:09

You know, the the fact that JZ was connected

36:11

to this this superstar who,

36:14

you know, who's palatable to, like,

36:16

Pepsi. Right? To

36:18

to to some to some of the the biggest

36:21

most mainstream brands in the world, you

36:24

know, in a way softened

36:26

his image. And I mean that in sort of, like, the

36:28

best possible way. Right? Like, earlier

36:30

in his career, you know, there are deals that he

36:32

wasn't getting because of his past, you

36:35

know, whether it was the JayZ a Jeep deal or

36:37

some of the record deals early on. But,

36:39

you know, I think if if JZ

36:41

had been married to Beyoncé at the time that

36:43

the the JZG thing had been going on,

36:45

there wouldn't have been that question. It's like, oh, he's

36:47

married to Beyoncé. She's She's wholesome.

36:50

She, you know, we can we can get behind that.

36:53

So so I think that it it it sort of helped

36:55

corporate America warm up to JZ little

36:57

bit. And, you know,

36:59

for her, it it

37:01

it brought all that horsepower of

37:03

of his of his sort of

37:05

business management

37:08

style of this sort of entrepreneurial style

37:10

to her empire. And, you know,

37:12

she started getting you know, she

37:15

she sings about getting paid in equity

37:17

for for doing a show, a

37:19

private gig, I think, for Uber. Stuff

37:22

like that, you know, that that wasn't gonna be happening,

37:24

you know, prior to JZ. So I

37:27

I would say more than the musical synergies, the

37:29

business synergies have been you

37:31

know, incredibly huge. And and they kind

37:33

of have a great, you

37:35

know, you you talk about AA2 income household.

37:37

Right? They get their money in really

37:40

different sort of ways. I mean, you

37:42

know, she can go out and tour and

37:44

gross three hundred million dollars in a

37:46

year. You know, he can't

37:48

do that. What he can do is he can invest

37:51

it and, you know, and build value,

37:53

you know, build equity, and

37:55

and he can be you can have

37:57

these giant assets they're appreciating, but she

38:00

can go out and get the cash. So I

38:02

think that's a nice combo, especially when

38:04

you have a I think he has a fifty

38:07

million dollar mortgage or something. You know, they bought

38:09

an eighty eight million dollar mansion couple

38:11

years ago, and they took out this this mortgage. This is still

38:13

I think it was still three percent. So he figured

38:16

he could he could could he could earn greater

38:18

return than that. But but you gotta have

38:20

somebody, you know, bring it in actively

38:22

while you're investing it, and that's what she does. Why

38:24

do you say that he couldn't go tour and bring

38:26

in three hundred million? Like, what do you think the number would be

38:28

if he did a similar type

38:30

tour? You know, he could do arenas.

38:32

I mean, you can sell out an arena gross,

38:35

you know, a little over a million dollars a night.

38:37

She can sell out a stadium and

38:39

gross, you know, five million a night. And

38:41

so if you were to go I

38:43

mean, you know, if you just do, like, the quick math

38:45

on that, you know, yeah.

38:47

I mean, I guess, if if you really wanted to do a

38:49

two year tour and go around the world

38:51

and and, you know, play every day like Coody gross

38:54

a million dollars year sure. But but,

38:57

you know, just the the time and

38:59

effort required what he would have to do

39:01

versus what she can do. You know, if you

39:03

can fit four four times as many people

39:05

into a building to

39:08

pay for your you know, to pay the same amount of money,

39:10

to see your same show, you

39:12

know, the scale obviously, she's

39:14

much greater. So I think

39:17

still, you know, as as big as he is,

39:20

he's not a pop star. And even

39:23

when you see him do arenas, it's always it can do

39:25

it with Beyonce or he'll do it with

39:27

Justin

39:27

Timberlake, something like that because

39:30

he just doesn't have the

39:32

You

39:33

know, the I mean, I I don't know that there are any

39:35

hip hop acts other than maybe Drake could

39:37

sell a stadium by

39:38

themselves. And be

39:40

honest with you as such a larger audience. Yeah.

39:42

Yeah. It's fascinating that people

39:44

who are into hip hop and rap, they

39:47

forget it's still pretty small compared

39:49

to the pop audience. But

39:52

but another theme that you have in the book is

39:54

that he actually spends less and less time

39:56

with rappers. And he starts spending

39:58

more and more time with various billionaires. And

40:00

some of them that you mentioned are Warren Buffett Bill Gates,

40:02

Michael Bloomberg, Mikhail, Prokhov,

40:06

Oprah Winfrey and and many others. Is

40:08

that an intentional thing? Is that just like your

40:10

interest becomes in business? And so you just naturally

40:12

gravitate towards the people who've figured that out

40:14

and and mastered it and so you wanna learn from

40:16

them? Like, what do you think is driving such

40:18

a different set of friends as he got older?

40:20

I think it's kind of

40:22

about, you know, what's your reality? Like,

40:25

what are your you know, what what

40:27

are your what are your problems? What

40:29

are your hopes and dreams? And and,

40:31

you know, you wouldn't spend time with people who are

40:33

who are, like, having some of

40:35

those same concerns occupying

40:38

their mind. Right? And, you

40:40

know, he just kind of he got to

40:42

a place where he he he was

40:45

one of one, right, in hip hop. I mean, you could

40:47

argue you know, did he or to some extent,

40:50

knowledge of a drink. But but,

40:52

you know, I mean, he's you

40:54

know, what does he have in common with some you

40:57

know, nineteen year old had just signed a record

41:00

deal and, you know,

41:02

and and is wrapping about,

41:04

like, money phone. don't

41:06

know. You know what I mean? So

41:09

I think for him, it was just you know,

41:11

there's some circles that he ran in and it kinda happened

41:13

naturally. I think at first, there was an element

41:15

where, you know, he was trying to always

41:19

be almost like he was almost trying to be the

41:21

poorest person in the room. You

41:23

know, the the least successful person

41:25

in the room and that the more time

41:27

he spent the people who were more successful for than

41:29

him, the more he could learn

41:33

their kind of secrets and and and tricks of

41:35

the trade. So

41:37

so I think that kinda naturally. But then, you know,

41:40

once you're in that verified sort

41:42

of error, you know, you start getting getting invited

41:45

to things, you're going to to the Met

41:47

Gala, and you're going to the White House, and all

41:49

that stuff. And and it's just, you know,

41:51

that that's who's there. So

41:53

so I I kinda think it was it was natural

41:55

evolution as he became more successful.

41:58

Where do you think he's going? What what's like the

42:01

end game here? Is it just bigger

42:03

and bigger deals kind of be the

42:06

the guy who becomes the richest,

42:08

you know, hip hop artist of all

42:10

time? Is it to be a

42:12

multi billionaire? Is it to give it all away? Like, what

42:14

what do you think kind of is the end game for?

42:18

I don't think he he necessarily is wanting

42:20

to get Rich just to get Rich. I think he's

42:22

has enough like, you know, what do you he's

42:24

worth one point five billion dollars. You

42:27

know, he he doesn't really need to do anything anymore

42:30

anyway, but he I think he really enjoys

42:32

it. think he, I think, it

42:34

energizes him. And,

42:36

you know, I would look at it the same way

42:39

you look at at any billionaire. I

42:41

mean, you know, why does

42:43

Elon Musk keep going? You

42:45

know, he why did he leave

42:47

after you know, why why didn't he just stop after

42:49

PayPal? Like, why did he keep going? And

42:52

I think there's something else to drive him. I think it's

42:54

the same with Jay and whether,

42:56

you know, I

42:58

don't know that he would wanna give it all away

43:01

certainly in his lifetime, I think

43:03

he's more interested in how can

43:06

he do interesting things.

43:08

You know, how can he he keep building and building?

43:11

And in the process, you know, how can

43:13

he have an impact? Like,

43:15

something like buying an NFL team. I mean, III

43:17

think that I think that's definitely

43:20

in his sights. And that's

43:23

about so much more than just you

43:27

know, having the the

43:29

the credibility and, you know, making

43:31

money through football. It's it's having

43:33

the seat at the table, you know, becoming the

43:36

first black owner of an football team,

43:39

you know, you know,

43:42

having having an impact just just by being

43:44

there, just by virtue of who you are. And

43:46

I think that's something that's become a lot more important

43:49

to him in recent years as he starts to

43:51

think a little more about his legacy. And

43:54

when you think about kind

43:56

of in hindsight, his

43:59

biggest mistake and his biggest

44:01

good decision or biggest success? What would you put

44:03

in each one of those categories? It's

44:07

a great a great question. Yeah.

44:11

Biggest mistake.

44:21

I think I think there's an

44:23

element where he

44:26

took a little longer than

44:28

he might have to really open

44:30

up about some of his failures. And

44:34

I think that that could

44:36

have been really valuable a

44:39

little earlier in his career. And,

44:41

again, it wasn't really until he

44:44

put out four forty four a few years ago.

44:47

And I think that album It

44:49

was at twenty pick him up twenty twenty, twenty

44:52

eighteen. I don't remember twenty eighteen, something like that.

44:54

Few years ago. Anyway, that was when

44:56

he it was sort of his apology album to Beyonce.

44:59

He he really kinda did some soul searching, that

45:01

sort of thing. You

45:04

know, but he he waited, I think, maybe a decade

45:06

longer than he needed to to show that vulnerability.

45:09

And I think that I

45:12

think that that sort of thing can be so valuable

45:15

to other people coming up. So, you know, I think I don't

45:17

know that monetarily would have been any different,

45:19

but if if what he really wants to

45:21

focus on now is a legacy, I

45:24

think some of those lessons of

45:26

of getting deep into what didn't work

45:29

are what are most valuable to people coming up.

45:32

And I think, you know, it it would

45:34

have been a service to start doing that a

45:36

little earlier. As far

45:38

as the biggest success, the

45:40

the best, business decision.

45:45

You know, probably the whole Rock Nation

45:47

apparatus I

45:50

mean, you could you could say the champagne deal,

45:52

but I guess we talked about that a lot already. I

45:54

think what he's done with Rock Nation, you know, which

45:56

is taking the the name

45:58

Rockefell records. Right? And and and kind

46:00

of, you know, just Rockwear clothing line,

46:03

finding his own name that kind of evokes

46:05

the names of the things he's already sold,

46:08

creating a new thing, getting

46:10

Live Nation to fund it, you

46:12

know, to guarantee him tens of millions

46:14

of dollars and fund thing every year

46:17

for a thing that that he still owns

46:19

for for this sort of multipurpose

46:22

entertainment company that he can kinda do whatever

46:24

he wants with. I think that

46:26

is a pretty remarkable decision. And,

46:29

you know, to to get that sort

46:31

of money, the sort of guarantees from a touring

46:33

company, When,

46:35

you know, as we talked about little earlier,

46:37

like hip hop is not it's

46:40

just not on the scale of

46:43

of Pomp when it comes

46:45

to live music. Record of music,

46:47

hip hop is is the most consumed genre in the world.

46:50

But live music is still a different story,

46:53

you know, to to get that kind of a deal from

46:56

a touring company, That's

46:58

that's pretty remarkable. And, you know, he reupped

47:00

it again recently and, you

47:03

know, so so I think that that's

47:06

Yeah. Hard hard hard to top that.

47:07

You didn't

47:09

just write a book about JayZ You've also written

47:12

a number of other books, and

47:14

Your most recent book was about A

47:16

List Celebrity's actually Angel

47:18

Investing. It was something that JayZ has done multiple

47:20

times. He's now raised multiple venture funds

47:23

and kind of continues to to

47:25

move into the asset management space. But what

47:27

are some of the takeaways just from celebrities,

47:30

athletes, musicians all starting to kind

47:32

of follow in these footsteps?

47:34

Yeah. You know, so the book is called A List angels.

47:37

It came out in March twenty twenty

47:40

at same time as COVID, so not not the

47:42

best timing there. But,

47:45

you know, it it dug into this phenomenon,

47:48

which I started to explore back

47:50

in twenty sixteen, wrote a Forbes cover story

47:52

on Ashton Kutcher. And Gayo

47:54

Siri, his business partner, who's the manager

47:57

of had been the manager of

47:59

you too and is the manager of Madonna and

48:01

some other folks. And, you know,

48:03

it kinda detailed how they they got

48:05

in, you know, they invested early in Uber and they're

48:07

being beat, some other country some other

48:09

companies started their own venture fund.

48:12

And and the book really explores,

48:14

you know, not just that, but but sort of this

48:17

the rise of the of the celebrity angel investor

48:19

And, you know, what is it exactly that if somebody

48:23

gets out of the deal, what is the entrepreneur, what is

48:25

the startup, get out of the deal, and

48:27

sort of why is this happening and and and why

48:29

do we care? And, you know, it's

48:31

it's funny because you you think about

48:35

the the viable reason hip hop early

48:37

on. You

48:39

know, now both

48:42

JZ and NOS have their own venture

48:44

funds. And, you know, that you can

48:46

you can see them kind

48:49

of tweaking each other a little bit, like,

48:52

in in verse in some of their songs,

48:54

like, when they talk about how

48:56

big their funds are or, you know, the stars that

48:59

they invested in that that were the

49:01

most successful. You know, even when

49:03

JZ started his unfunded call it MVP,

49:06

Marcy, venture partners,

49:09

I think it stands for. And, you know, that

49:11

was after Noss had started

49:13

Queensbridge Venture

49:15

Partners. So you know,

49:18

there's there's this sort of, like, funny

49:20

little thing where so NaaS named

49:23

his fund after the the

49:25

housing project where he grew up. JayZ named

49:27

it after his, but his is, like, MVP. Like,

49:29

he's the most valuable player. You

49:31

know, so there there's a little bit of back

49:33

and forth competition, I think, going on there.

49:36

And it's interesting to see how it it translates

49:38

from, you know, from the old

49:40

days until now. But But,

49:42

yeah, I think that that's where, you know,

49:44

a lot of this energy has gone in terms

49:46

of the the

49:48

strategy of, like, let's get equity you

49:50

know, instead of just taking cash deal, a

49:53

lot of slippage are like, okay. Maybe

49:55

I can get free equity in startup. I can get some advisory

49:58

shares. Or or or maybe

50:00

I can, you know, by

50:02

virtue of my celebrity status, I can get into an

50:04

oversubscribed round for for AAA

50:06

startup that's sort of you know,

50:08

there's no free lunch, but something that's, you

50:10

know, headed toward an IPO that's gonna

50:12

be a big deal and

50:13

and, you know, some of the value that founders can get

50:15

out of having celebrities on the cap table.

50:18

My last question for you is, who's

50:20

the next one? Who who do you when you look out

50:22

on the landscape? Whether it's music, celebrity,

50:25

who do you think has the potential both

50:27

from a notoriety, a

50:29

branding, an aspiration or

50:31

ambition? And then also just kind

50:33

of surrounded with the right people to be able to pull

50:35

off something like this, whether it's become a billionaire

50:37

or kind of acquire many of the assets

50:40

similar to JayZ, who who would you say it's kind

50:42

of next in line?

50:44

Yeah. I mean, there, you know, there are a lot of interesting

50:46

names out there. I kinda think the

50:48

one I've got my eye on is burner. He's

50:50

the the founder of cookies, huge

50:53

cannabis brand. He's actually the

50:55

third or fourth richest guy in hip

50:57

hop right now. And I

50:59

think as federal legalization becomes

51:03

a real possibility, his

51:06

his empire is gonna become, you know,

51:08

ever more valuable and and already

51:10

is doing, you know,

51:12

fantastically well, I think more than anybody really

51:14

realizes But he's somebody

51:17

who has that same kind of entrepreneurial energy

51:19

and, you know, can really

51:21

dissect things and and and

51:23

think, you know, four moves ahead.

51:26

So I would keep an eye on on burner

51:28

for sure. So he's an interesting person

51:30

for you to say because he's released, like, forty albums.

51:33

My guess is that very large

51:35

portion of the audience is not gonna know who he is.

51:37

And and so he doesn't have nearly the kind

51:39

of notoriety on the music side.

51:42

As somebody like AJZ would. But

51:45

really, is this also highlighting

51:47

the fact that many of the people who kind of start with music

51:49

they may do that to build little bit of momentum, maybe

51:51

some cash flow. But ultimately, they know

51:53

the game is not music. The game is to

51:55

get into

51:56

business, and so they issues that as the launchpad. And

51:58

they're going to care less and less about the success of

52:00

their music career? Absolutely.

52:03

Although, Bernard, you know, he's incredibly

52:05

prolific. I mean, he as you say, and he's

52:07

an insane quantity of albums that he puts out.

52:09

It's just nonstop. So I

52:12

I don't think he needs to be releasing music

52:14

that often quite that often

52:16

to to have an impact.

52:18

But, you know, I think he really loves and he cares about

52:20

it. And and it absolutely

52:23

informs the success of his cannabis

52:25

brand, his clothing line, stuff like that. So,

52:27

you know, I

52:30

do think that It's a conscious

52:32

choice as well. You know, the

52:34

the the music dovetails with the with the

52:36

the main business. And,

52:39

you know, I think he's definitely taken

52:41

lessons from from Jay and then and, you

52:43

know, to to see how that works. So but

52:45

I'm also interested see you

52:48

know, if if cookies down the line

52:50

IPOs and he he suddenly

52:52

got a lot more cash on his hands, a lot

52:54

more liquidity, you know, what what does he

52:56

go and do with that? Is it just stuff in the cannabis

52:58

space? Or does he start investing in other

53:00

things? Two, does he start doing the JZ thing?

53:03

And, you know, I think that could be really, really

53:05

interesting. And, you know, certainly, cookies

53:07

has a chance to be the Arman

53:09

to bring yac of of weed.

53:11

It's probably already more valuable then

53:14

Armanjipuriyak, you

53:16

know, maybe the the better question is,

53:18

could it become the, you know,

53:21

I don't know, what's what's a what's a bit? What's

53:23

Could it become the vertical of weed? You

53:25

know, it's like something that's the high end,

53:28

but very widely consumed brand,

53:31

you know, could you start to get a

53:34

massive scale? Could it even become, you

53:36

know, the Budweiser we and

53:40

I think that, you know, there's no sort

53:42

of, like, clear cut number one brand

53:44

out there where everybody knows, like, Oh, it's you

53:46

know, that that is the number one wheat brand,

53:49

but but I think his is certainly in the running to

53:51

do that once things really open up

53:53

federally. Think the reports are that he turned out

53:55

eight hundred million dollars for for the company

53:57

already. I don't know if he owns hundred percent or

53:59

he's got investors or what, but, obviously,

54:01

there's a number of investors who think it's quite

54:04

valuable. And if you think, you know, the federal

54:06

kind of approval and the legalization

54:09

of it at the federal level, would would put

54:11

a

54:11

big, you know, kind of multiple on that, you

54:14

know, under the assumption that it happens.

54:16

Yes. He he owns about a third of the

54:18

company's still. He turned down

54:20

the eight hundred million dollar offer. The

54:23

the weed business has been sort of weird lately.

54:25

There's been some you know, the that

54:27

it's been rolled out in different states, there's been oversupply

54:30

in some states, which is encouraged, like,

54:32

selling out the back door and shipping off to

54:34

other states where it's not legal yet, because get a better

54:36

deal sometimes. But, you know, I

54:38

think that kind of stuff is gonna sort itself

54:40

out and and, you know,

54:43

I I think one of the big issues is just

54:45

something that's federally illegal. Even

54:48

if it's legal in the state, you know, you have to do this

54:50

in cash. You gotta you gotta have a lot of state cards in

54:52

place. You can't get financing in the same way.

54:54

So, you know, I think once

54:57

it does go legal federally, which I think it will,

54:59

you know, within the next, I

55:01

don't know, three to five

55:02

years, you know, he's gonna

55:04

be in a really great position too.

55:06

Awesome.

55:07

Where can we send people to find you on the Internet or

55:09

find any of the books that you've written? Yeah.

55:12

My handle on on all platforms

55:14

is Zog blog. And you

55:17

can find Empire State of Mind in

55:21

Yep. Wherever books are sold, I'd say. Friendly

55:23

neighborhood bookstore, you know, go support your independent

55:25

bookstore if you can, but but you

55:27

can get it wherever books are sold.

55:29

And as I mentioned at the beginning, Zach

55:31

and I met because I read Empire State of Mine,

55:34

how JZ went from street corner to corner

55:36

office. It is fantastic. Even

55:39

if you're not into hip hop or rap,

55:41

it is AAA great kind

55:44

of overview of what has become

55:46

one of the least likely billionaires.

55:49

If you go back to kind of where they started, but

55:51

has done a fantastic job of kind of building

55:53

his empire. And so it's the revised edition.

55:56

There's a billionaire additions as you became billionaire.

55:58

How do you suggest you go get it if if

56:00

you've not read it? And, Zach, thank you so

56:02

much for your time. I am I enjoyed talking

56:04

and something tells me that we could talk for hours

56:06

and hours about every single one of the people

56:08

in hip hop that seems to be moving

56:10

into the business world and and doing so

56:12

at such a rapid pace.

56:14

I'm into that. Well, thanks for having me on the pop.