0:00

Joe Rogan podcast, check it out! The

0:02

Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day,

0:04

Joe Rogan podcast

0:06

by night, all day! Talkin' with you

0:08

at live is like, that will live in

0:10

infamy. It is the best

0:13

clip because he's like a totally different person.

0:16

Well it's what he really is. But

0:18

he really is. Yeah, it's like the Ellen thing, you know? I

0:21

mean he really did lose his shit there. Oh,

0:24

it looked like weirdly. You know?

0:27

I got the Christian Bale one because he's

0:29

in character, his intense scene. Some

0:32

guy's fucking around in the background, like, God

0:34

damn it, stop fucking around! I get that.

0:37

He's in this frenzy of this intense scene.

0:40

But what is fucking, what is Bill doing? Republican

0:45

talking points on Fox News. That was a

0:47

different part of current affair, right? No,

0:50

it was before. It was current affair. It's

0:52

when he's doing like, you know, like, a lot of

0:54

things. It was current affair, right? It's when he's doing

0:56

like, gossip and stuff. Oh, that's right! He

0:59

was a gossip guy! He was like an

1:01

entertainment tonight type guy. Exactly. Inside

1:03

Edition. One of those deals. Inside Edition. Oh,

1:06

is that what it was? That's what it's called.

1:08

Inside Edition. Yeah, and fucking those things. They never

1:10

go away. It's such a weird environment, the left

1:12

and right. There's

1:15

no like, centrist news source

1:17

on television. There's no like,

1:20

this is probably what's going on, news

1:22

source. Yeah. It's always one or the

1:25

other, and it's like you're living in a bipolar

1:28

person's brain, you know? I

1:30

think like, part of what's

1:32

happened is we used

1:34

to have news, and you

1:36

could make a good living in news,

1:38

and you know, journalists were really

1:40

sort of the top of the social hierarchy in

1:42

some way, shape or form, because they were this

1:45

check and balance. And

1:47

then somewhere along the way, this business model focused

1:50

people on clicks, and nobody

1:52

told the rest of the world that

1:54

the underlying incentives were going to change.

1:57

And so that's where you find yourself, where...

8:00

pushes them to a boundary

8:02

that they didn't know was possible, you're teaching them

8:04

stuff, that's really cool. So

8:06

I understand what the intent is, but

8:09

then the byproduct is there's

8:11

a small group of folks that get shut out,

8:13

and then that person that could be that

8:16

Steve Jobs-like person, that Elon Musk-like

8:18

person, is held

8:21

a little bit back. And I think that that

8:23

hurts all of us. So you've got to find

8:25

a way where we're doing just a

8:27

little bit better. Well, isn't that

8:30

the part of the problem with eliminating

8:32

gifted classes? Right, there's talk, I think

8:34

they're doing that in New York, is

8:37

that where they're doing that? Find out

8:39

if that's the case. There's some where

8:41

there's this hot controversy about eliminating the

8:43

concept of gifted classes. But

8:46

the reality is, there's some people that are

8:48

going to find regular classes, particularly mathematics

8:50

and some of the things, they're going to

8:52

find them a little too easy. They're

8:55

more advanced, they're more advanced students. And those

8:57

students should have some sort of an option

8:59

to excel. And it should

9:01

be inspiring, maybe intimidating, but

9:03

also inspiring to everybody else. That's part

9:05

of the reason why kids go to

9:07

school together. Look how

9:09

hard she works. She works so much harder than

9:12

me. Look how much she's getting ahead. Fuck, I

9:14

got to work harder. And it really does work

9:16

that way. That's how human beings in

9:18

cooperation, that's how they grow

9:21

together. And I think that

9:23

it used to be the case that if you went

9:25

to in high school. This

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12:00

said he took them. That's okay.

12:02

What's wrong with that idea? Just nothing

12:04

wrong. It sounds optimal. It sounds pretty

12:06

reasonable. It sounds great. It's

12:09

just a matter of resources and

12:11

then also completely revamping how you teach

12:13

kids. This is my

12:15

gripe with this whole ADHD

12:18

thing. I've talked

12:20

to many people who have varying opinions on

12:22

whether or not that's an actual condition or

12:24

whether or not there's a lot of people

12:26

that have a lot of energy and you're

12:28

sitting in a class that's very boring and

12:30

they don't want to pay attention to it.

12:32

Instead, you drug them and you

12:34

give them medication that is essentially

12:36

speed and lets them hyper focus on

12:38

things. Now all of a sudden, little

12:41

Timmy's locked on. It was really

12:43

just the medication that he needed. I

12:45

think for a lot of those kids,

12:47

if they found something that was really

12:50

interesting to them, maybe they're really bored

12:52

with this, but they're really excited by

12:54

biology. Maybe there's something that

12:56

resonates with their particular personality and what

12:59

excites them. They could find a pathway.

13:01

Instead, we have this very

13:05

rigid system that wants to

13:08

get children accustomed to the idea

13:10

of sitting still for an

13:12

hour at a time over and over

13:14

and over again throughout the day being

13:16

subjected to people who aren't necessarily that

13:18

motivated or getting paid that well. Well,

13:21

we're going to probably talk about AI today, but

13:23

let's just touch on this just in this one

13:26

second. We

13:29

are going to create computers

13:33

that are able

13:35

to do a lot of the rote thinking for

13:37

us. What

13:39

that means is, I think, the

13:43

way that humans differentiate ourselves is

13:45

that we're going to have to

13:47

have judgment and taste. Those are

13:49

very defining psychological characteristics, in my

13:51

opinion. What that

13:53

means is if you go back to

13:55

how school is taught, what you

13:57

said is very the

14:00

world is going to look like in 30 years. In

14:02

30 years where you have a PhD

14:05

assistant that's in your pocket that can

14:07

literally do all of the memorization,

14:09

spell checking, grammar, all of the

14:12

fact recall for you, teaching

14:16

that today is probably

14:18

not going to be as important as interpreting

14:20

it. How do you teach kids to learn

14:22

to think, not to memorize

14:24

and regurgitate? So we have

14:27

to flip, I think, this education system. We have

14:29

to try to figure out a different

14:31

way to solve this

14:33

problem because you can't set

14:36

children in this generation of our kids

14:40

to go and have to compete with a computer.

14:45

That's crazy. It's crazy. That's crazy. That's how you

14:47

make a Drake song in three minutes. The computer

14:49

is going to win. So what

14:51

can't the computer do is, I think, maybe

14:53

a reasonable question. And I think the computer,

14:56

in a lot of cases, can't

14:59

express judgment. It'll learn, but

15:01

today it's not going to be able to, the same

15:03

way that humans can. It's

15:05

going to have different tastes, right?

15:07

So the way that we interpret things,

15:09

the same way that you motivate people, like

15:11

all the psychology, all these things that are

15:14

sort of like these softer skills that allowed

15:16

humans to cooperate and work together, that

15:18

stuff becomes more important when you have a

15:21

fleet of robots. And

15:23

so if you go all the way back to school, today

15:27

the school

15:29

system is unfortunately in a

15:32

pretty tough loop. Look, teachers,

15:36

I think, are going to become the

15:40

top three or four important people in

15:43

society. And the

15:45

reason is because they are going to

15:48

be tasked with teaching your kids and my

15:50

kids how to think, not to memorize. Don't

15:52

tell me what happened in the war of

15:54

1812. You can just use

15:58

a search engine or use a search engine. use a

16:00

chat GPT and find out the answer. But

16:03

why did it happen? What were the motivations?

16:05

If it happens again, what would

16:07

you do differently or the same? And

16:10

those kinds of reasoning and judgment things, I

16:12

think, were still far ahead of those computers.

16:14

So the teachers have to teach that, which means you have

16:17

to pay them more, you have to put them in a

16:19

position to do that job better. And then

16:21

back to what you said, you know,

16:23

in my, I've lived this example of

16:25

ADHD in my family. One

16:27

of the kids was diagnosed with it. And

16:31

unfortunately, what happens is the system a little bit

16:33

closes in on you. So on the one side,

16:35

they give you a lot of

16:37

benefits, I guess. I put it in quotes

16:39

because you get these emails that say

16:41

if they want extra time, if they want this,

16:44

if they want, you know, they'll give

16:46

you a computer, for example, to take notes so that

16:48

you don't hand write. So

16:50

those feel like aids to help you. Right.

16:54

But then on the other side, you know, one

16:56

person was very adamant like,

16:58

hey, you want to medicate. And

17:02

my ex-wife and I were just like, under

17:04

no circumstances are we medicating our child. That

17:07

was a personal decision that we made with

17:09

the information that we had knowing that specific

17:11

kid. All kids are different, so

17:13

I don't want to generalize. And

17:16

then the crazy thing, Joe, what we did was we took the

17:18

iPad out of the kid's hand. And

17:21

we said, you know, we had these

17:23

very strict device rules, and

17:26

then COVID turned everything upside down. And

17:29

you're just surviving. You're sheltering and

17:31

playing. Right. Five kids running around.

17:34

They're not really being, you know, taught by

17:37

the schools. The schools won't convene the kids.

17:41

And so what do you do? You just hand them the device. Everything

17:44

was through the device. The

17:46

little class they got through the device, the way

17:48

that they would talk to their friends through the

17:50

device. So it reintroduced itself in a way that

17:54

we couldn't control. And

17:56

then we saw this slippage. And

17:58

then what we did was we just... just drew a bright red line

18:00

and we said, we're taking it out of your hands. No

18:03

more video games, no

18:05

more iPad, we're gonna dose

18:07

it in very small doses. And he had

18:09

an entire turnaround. But then

18:12

here's what happened. I

18:14

took my eye off the ball a little bit this summer,

18:16

because it was like he had a great

18:18

year, he reset his self confidence

18:20

was coming back. I was like, man, this is

18:22

amazing. And then I do the

18:24

thing that, you know, a lot of people would do, oh here,

18:26

you can have an hour. Ah

18:28

yeah, it's fine, you know, talk to your friends, you know. And

18:31

then it started again. And then again, now we just

18:33

have to reset. So at least

18:35

in our example, what we have found, and

18:38

I'm not, it may not apply to everybody, but for us,

18:42

him not being bathed

18:44

in this thing, had

18:48

a huge effect. Playing basketball outside,

18:51

you know, roughhousing with his brothers,

18:54

you know, having to talk to his friends, having

18:56

to talk to us, watching movies,

18:59

you know, or we would just sit around, because by the

19:01

way, what I

19:03

noticed was like, my kids had a hard time

19:06

watching movies or

19:09

listening to songs on Spotify for the

19:11

full duration. They'd get to

19:13

the hook and they'd be like, Ford, next. And

19:16

they'd be like, you know, they'd watch like eight minutes next. And I

19:18

was like, what are you guys doing? Like,

19:20

this is like enjoying the fullness. They

19:24

couldn't even sit there for three and a half minutes. So

19:27

what at least, you know,

19:29

my son was learning was, right,

19:31

to just chill a

19:34

little bit, be there, be able to watch the show.

19:36

And these shows move at a glacial

19:38

pace relative to what they're used to

19:41

if they're playing a video game. Or TikTok.

19:43

Or TikTok. Yeah. Yeah, because

19:46

TikTok, they're like this, boom, boom, boom, boom. And

19:49

it's helped. It's not a cure. But

19:53

it just goes back to what you're saying, which is like, if

19:56

you give parents options, I

20:01

heard this crazy stat, I don't know if this is true. If

20:04

you take your devices away from a kid, the

20:07

kid will feel isolated from

20:09

their other students. The

20:11

critical mass, I don't know if this is true or not,

20:13

but it's what I was told, so I'll go with it,

20:16

was that if you get a third of the

20:18

parents, so like in

20:20

a class of 20, if you get a third of

20:22

the parents to agree as well, no

20:24

devices, the kid feels

20:26

zero social isolation because

20:29

it becomes normative. It's normal.

20:32

You got a flip phone and you're texting

20:34

like this to your parents or you're calling.

20:39

I don't know, it may be worth trying. There was

20:41

a crazy thing, I don't know if you can find

20:43

this, but there was a crazy thing, Eaton College, which

20:46

is like the most elite,

20:49

if you will, private school in

20:51

the UK. It's kind of

20:53

where all the prime ministers of the United

20:56

Kingdom have matriculated through Eaton College, so it's

20:58

like high school, fancy high school. They

21:02

sent a memo to the parents for

21:04

the incoming class and

21:06

the headmaster said, when

21:09

you get on campus with your child, we're

21:11

going to give you like what is basically

21:13

a Nokia flip phone. You

21:15

are going to take the SIM card out of

21:18

this kid's iPhone or Android, you're going to stick

21:20

it in this thing and this is

21:22

how they're going to communicate with you and communicate

21:24

amongst each other while they're on campus at

21:26

E. Wow. Mandatory.

21:28

Mandatory. I

21:31

thought this was incredible. I

21:33

don't know what the impact is, but

21:37

that takes a lot of courage and I

21:39

thought that's amazing. Well, it's

21:42

great because then if they're

21:44

communicating, they're only communicating. They're

21:46

not sharing things or Snapchatting

21:48

each other back and forth

21:50

and the addictive qualities of

21:52

these phones, which is if

21:54

you think about the course of human evolution

21:57

and you think of how we adapted to...

22:00

agriculture and civilization and we essentially

22:02

became softer and less muscular and

22:05

less aggressive like that

22:07

took a long time. A long time.

22:09

That was a long time. This thing

22:11

is hitting us so quickly and

22:14

one of the bizarre

22:16

things is it creates

22:18

a disconnection even

22:20

though you're being connected to

22:23

people consistently and constantly through

22:25

social media there's a disconnection

22:27

between human beings and normal

22:30

behavior and learning through interaction with

22:32

each other, social cues, all the

22:34

different things that we rely on

22:36

to learn how to be a

22:38

friend and to learn how to

22:40

be better at talking to each

22:43

other. I have a rule with

22:45

my oldest who's 15. He'll

22:48

call me, he'll call me or

22:52

even when I call him. It's

23:00

like this like it's like a

23:02

grunt greeting. Right, not a talk

23:04

anymore. And

23:06

I'm like hello. And

23:12

so I went through this thing where like I would just hang

23:14

up and I'm like you

23:16

know beep hang up and then he would call

23:18

me back. And

23:25

then finally I said I just

23:27

I just want you to have these building

23:29

blocks they may sound really stupid to you

23:31

right now but looking

23:33

people in the eye being

23:36

able to have a normal conversation

23:39

and be patient in that conversation is

23:43

going to be really valuable for you. People

23:45

will really be connected to you.

23:47

You may not feel that and you may think this

23:49

is like lame and stupid what I'm

23:51

telling you but I was like just try to

23:53

just try to do it. And then

23:56

what's so funny is like I

23:59

would tell this story about like, you know, our

24:01

kids go to like a, you know,

24:03

very well-meaning private school, right?

24:06

And I

24:08

almost think like sometimes like, again,

24:11

we're not teaching necessarily kids to think for

24:13

themselves. We're asking them to memorize a bunch

24:15

of things. And one

24:17

of the things that I worry that we've taught

24:20

our kids to memorize are like the

24:22

fake greetings and salutations. So on

24:25

the one hand, you have what's really visceral, which is,

24:27

oh. And then on

24:29

the other hand, you know, sometimes you'll see these

24:31

kids and they'll get introduced somebody to, hello, how

24:33

are you? It's great

24:35

to meet you. And I'm like, man,

24:37

this is the most, this is the

24:39

fakest thing I've ever seen. So you're at these two

24:41

ends of the spectrum. And

24:44

I would make fun of my kids sometimes because

24:46

like, you know, they would say thank you,

24:48

but they would say like, thank you, like the queen. They'd

24:50

be like, thank you. And I'm like,

24:53

what are you doing? Who taught you that? You

24:55

were taught at school to say thank you like that?

24:58

You could just say thank you. Right. Thanks.

25:02

I appreciate that. Just look somebody in the eye.

25:04

Thank you. But what concerns me is

25:06

as this tech gets more and more invasive

25:08

in terms of how human beings, particularly children

25:10

interface with it. And as it gets, I

25:12

mean, we're really, we would just be guessing

25:14

as to what comes out of AI and

25:17

to what, what kind of world we're even looking at in 20

25:19

years. It

25:21

seems like it's having a profound effect

25:24

on the behavior of human beings, particularly

25:26

young human beings and their development. How

25:28

old are you? I'm 48. I'm

25:31

57. So when I grew

25:33

up, there was zero of this.

25:35

And I got this slow trickle

25:38

through adulthood from when I

25:40

was a child, the VHS tapes and answering

25:42

machines for the big tech. Yeah, you had

25:44

the rotary phone. Yes. Yeah,

25:46

exactly. So we went through the whole

25:48

cycle of it, which is really interesting. So

25:51

you get, you get to see this

25:53

profound change in people and what it's

25:55

doing to kids. And

25:57

you got to wonder, like, what is that

25:59

doing to the species? And is that going

26:02

to be normal? Is it going to be

26:04

normal to be emotionally

26:06

disconnected and very bizarre in

26:08

our person to

26:12

person interface? I think

26:14

that when technologies get going, you

26:17

have this little burst. It's

26:20

like these Cambrian moments. You get

26:22

these little bursts which are overwhelmingly

26:24

positive. I don't know what your

26:26

reaction was, but my reaction when I first

26:28

saw the iPhone, I was blown

26:31

away. And I

26:33

think the first four or five years was

26:35

entirely positive because

26:38

it was just so novel. You took this big

26:40

computer and we effectively shrunk

26:42

it to this little computer, made

26:44

it half to a third of the cost. And

26:47

lo and behold, supply demand, just

26:49

the number of computers tripled and

26:51

quadrupled and quintupled and so many

26:53

more people were able

26:55

to be a part of that economic

26:58

cycle, all positive. Then

27:00

you get a little dip. And the little dip

27:02

is when I think we lose

27:04

a little bit of the ambition of that first moment

27:08

and we get caught up in the economics of

27:10

the current moment. What I mean by that

27:12

is the last five or

27:14

10 years, I think why

27:16

you feel this viscerally is we

27:19

haven't had a big leap forward from the

27:21

iPhone of really 2014, 15. And

27:24

I'm not picking on the iPhone. I'm just like

27:26

a mobile device. So what have you

27:28

had over the last 10 years? You've had an

27:30

enormous amount of money get created

27:33

by an enormous number of apps. And

27:37

the problem is that they are in a

27:39

cul-de-sac and so they'll just iterate in this

27:41

one way that they understand because

27:43

the money is really good, quite honestly.

27:47

And the incentives of the capital markets will tell you

27:49

to just keep doing that. But

27:52

then I think what happens is something shocks

27:55

us out of it and then we get the

27:57

second wave. So if you go all the way back

27:59

to look at the ... like the PC. The

28:02

first moment of the PC in the 70s and

28:04

the early 80s was incredible. You

28:06

had these people that were

28:08

able to take it and do all kinds

28:10

of really interesting things. It was pure. Then

28:14

you had sort of like the 90s and the early 2000s

28:16

and what was it?

28:18

It was duopolistic at

28:20

best, Microsoft and Intel.

28:22

What they were able to do was

28:24

extract a huge tax by putting all

28:26

of these things on folks' desks and

28:28

it was still mostly positive but

28:31

it was somewhat limited because

28:33

most of the spoils went to these two

28:35

companies and all the other companies basically

28:38

got a little bit run over. Then it

28:40

took the DOJ to step in in

28:42

2000 and try to course correct

28:44

that on behalf of everybody

28:46

basically. Then

28:49

what happened was the internet just exploded

28:52

and the internet blew the doors wide open and all

28:54

of a sudden if you had a PC, you didn't

28:57

have these gatekeepers. It actually didn't

28:59

even matter whether you were running on Intel

29:01

anymore. You just needed a browser. You didn't

29:03

need Microsoft Windows and

29:05

you didn't need Intel and

29:08

then just the internet just explodes.

29:12

We have a positive moment followed by

29:15

call it 10 or 15 years of basically

29:18

economic extraction and

29:21

then we have value. I think

29:23

today it's like we've invented something really

29:25

powerful. We've

29:28

had 10 or 15 years that were largely

29:30

economic and

29:32

again I think this is like the problem I'm

29:34

going to sound like every other nerd

29:38

from Central Casting from Silicon Valley telling you this

29:40

but I do think that there's a version

29:42

of this AI thing which blows the doors

29:45

wide open again. I

29:47

think we owe it to ourselves to figure out how

29:49

to make that more likely than

29:51

not likely. Well it seems it's

29:53

inevitable right? AI's emergence and it's

29:56

where it goes from here on is inevitable. It's

29:58

going to happen and we should. probably try

30:01

to steer it at least in a way

30:03

that benefits everybody. And I agree with you.

30:05

There is a world I could see where

30:08

AI changes everything. And

30:10

one of the things that makes me most hopeful is

30:13

a much better form

30:15

of translation so that we'll

30:17

be able to understand each other better. Totally. It's

30:20

a giant part of the problem in the world

30:22

that's the Tower of Babel. So we

30:24

really can't communicate with each other very well.

30:26

So we really don't know what the problems

30:29

are in these particular areas or how people

30:31

feel about us, how we feel about them.

30:33

Can't empathize. Yeah, we can't. And

30:35

it's very easy to not empathize with

30:37

someone where you don't even know what

30:39

their letters are. Have you been

30:41

in a situation where you have a translator with a thing in

30:43

your ear? No. Empathy

30:46

zero. Because the problem is the person there

30:48

is giving it to you in a certain

30:51

tone because it's first person. Oh, I've had

30:53

that with many interview fighters. I've had translators.

30:55

Yeah, but when you're here, it's very hard

30:57

to feel empathy for this person because it's

30:59

this person that you're focused on because you're

31:02

trying to catch it. Right. So

31:04

you hear the words. I think somewhat

31:06

of the meaning is a

31:08

little bit lost. Then you go back to this person

31:10

and you say something and they're in the same problem

31:12

that you are. So I agree with that.

31:14

The translation thing is cool. I think that there are ... There's

31:17

going to be some negative areas.

31:23

I think that there's going to be a lot of pressure

31:26

on certain jobs and we got to figure that out. So

31:28

it's not all roses. But some areas,

31:30

if you imagine them, I'll

31:32

give you a couple if you want, are just

31:35

bananas, I think. Okay. Okay.

31:39

So I'll go from the most likely to

31:41

the craziest. Okay. Okay. So

31:44

most likely today, do you know if

31:46

you know somebody that's had breast cancer, if

31:49

they go into a hospital,

31:51

a random hospital in America, and

31:54

the doctor says, we need to do a lumpectomy,

31:56

meaning we need to take some mass out of

31:58

your breast to take the cancer out. What

32:01

do you think the error rate today is

32:03

across all hospitals in America? It's

32:06

about 30%. Wow. And

32:09

in regional hospitals, so places that are

32:12

poor, right, or places that are

32:14

in far flung parts of the United States, it can

32:16

be upwards of 40%. This

32:19

is not the doctor's fault, okay? The

32:22

problem is that you're

32:24

forcing him or her to

32:27

look with their eyes into

32:29

tissue and try to

32:31

figure out, well, where is the border where the

32:33

cancer stops? So for

32:36

every 10 surgeries, what that means are a

32:39

week later, so imagine this, you get a breast

32:41

cancer surgery, they take it

32:44

out, they send it to the pathologist. The pathologist

32:46

takes between seven and 11 days. So

32:49

you're kind of waiting. One

32:52

of the calls come back, you're

32:54

clean margins, you're great. Now go to the

32:56

next step. Three of

32:58

the calls, I'm sorry, there's still cancer

33:00

inside your body. Three. So

33:04

these women now go back for the next

33:06

surgery. But the problem is one

33:08

of those women will get another call that says, I'm

33:10

sorry, there's still cancer. And

33:13

so what is that?

33:16

That's a computer vision problem, right?

33:20

That's not necessarily a problem

33:22

that can't not be solved literally

33:24

today. We have

33:27

models, we have tissue samples of

33:30

women of all ages, of all

33:32

races, right? So you have all of

33:35

the different boundary conditions you'd need to

33:37

basically get to a 0% error rate.

33:41

And what's amazing is that is now working its

33:43

way through the FDA. So call

33:45

it within the next two years, there'll

33:47

be an AI assistant that

33:50

sits inside of an operating room. The

33:53

surgeon will take out what they think is appropriate,

33:55

they'll put it into this machine, and it'll literally,

33:57

I'm going to simplify, but it'll flash red or

33:59

green. I mean, you got

34:01

all the cancer out. You

34:04

need to take out a little bit more just right over here. And

34:07

now you get it out and now all of a sudden instead

34:09

of a 30% error rate, you have a 0% error

34:12

rate. That's amazing.

34:15

That's today because you have this computer that's

34:18

able to help you. And

34:20

all we need is the will and

34:23

the data that says, okay, we want to

34:25

do this, just show me that it works

34:28

and show me what the alternative would be if we didn't

34:30

do it. And the alternative turns out

34:32

to be pretty brutal. Fourteen

34:35

surgeries for every ten surgeries. I mean, that's not

34:37

what the most advanced nation in the world should

34:39

be doing. Right. Okay, so if

34:41

you do it for breast cancer, the reason why breast

34:44

cancer is where folks are focusing is

34:46

because it gets so much attention and

34:49

it's like prime time. But

34:51

it's not just breast cancer, lung

34:54

cancer, pancreatic cancer,

34:57

stomach cancer, colon cancer.

35:01

If you look at any kind of tumor, so

35:04

if you're at the stage where you're like,

35:06

we need to get this thing, this foreign

35:08

growing thing out of our body, we

35:12

should all have the ability to just do

35:14

that with 0% error and it will be

35:16

possible in the next couple of years because

35:19

of AI. So that's kind of like

35:21

a, that's cool and it's coming. I

35:25

think between years two and years five, you're

35:29

going to see this crazy explosion in

35:32

materials. And this is going

35:34

to sound maybe dumb, but I think

35:36

it's one of the coolest things. If you look

35:38

at the periodic table of elements, what's

35:42

amazing is like we keep adding. So

35:46

there's like 118 elements. We

35:48

actually just theoretically forecasted there's

35:50

going to be 119, so we created a little box.

35:54

It's going to be, it's like, it's theoretical, but it's

35:56

going to show up and they forecasted

35:58

that there's going to be 114. Okay?

36:02

So, the periodic table of elements,

36:04

quote-unquote, grows. But

36:06

when you look at the lived world today, we

36:10

live in this very narrow expression of all

36:12

of those things. We use the same few materials over

36:15

and over and over again. But

36:17

if you had to solve a really complicated

36:19

problem, don't

36:21

you think the answer could theoretically be in this?

36:24

Meaning, if you took, I'm going to make it

36:26

up, Selenium

36:29

and then doped it with titanium 1%,

36:32

but if you doped it with boron 14%,

36:35

all of these things are possible. It's like stronger

36:37

than the strongest thing in the world, and wow,

36:39

and it's lighter than anything. So

36:41

now, you can make rockets with it and send it all

36:44

the way up with less energy. It's all possible. So,

36:46

why haven't we figured it out? Because

36:50

the amount of energy and the amount of computers

36:52

we need to solve those problems, which

36:54

are super complicated, haven't

36:56

been available to us. I

37:00

think that is this next phase of AI. So

37:02

what you said, which is we're going to have

37:04

these PhD-level robots and

37:06

agents. In the next two to five years,

37:08

we're going to come up with all kinds of materials. You'll

37:12

have a frying pan that's nonstick, but doesn't have to heat

37:14

up. Oh, whatever you want.

37:16

From the most benign to the

37:18

most incredible stuff, we'll just re-engineer

37:22

what's on earth. That's

37:25

going to be crazy. It's going to

37:27

be incredible. We all benefit from that. The

37:29

kinds of jobs that that creates. We

37:32

don't even know what job class that is to work

37:34

with Selenium and BOR. I'm making up

37:36

these elements, so please don't. So

37:39

the point is that there's ... So

37:41

that's like in the middle phase. So

37:44

our physical lived world is

37:46

going to totally transform. Imagine a

37:48

building that's made of a

37:50

material that bends. It

37:53

can just go like this and nothing changes to it. Why

37:56

would that be important? Well, if you want to protect yourself

37:58

from the crazy stuff. the

38:00

unpredictability of climate in

38:02

the areas where it's susceptible to that, maybe

38:05

you can construct these things

38:07

much cheaper. Well, earthquakes. Earthquakes.

38:10

You could construct more of them. Imagine in San

38:12

Francisco, you could build buildings that solve

38:15

the housing crisis, but do it in a way that

38:17

was cheaper because the materials are totally different and you

38:19

could just prove that these things are bulletproof. So

38:22

instead of spending a billion dollars to build a building,

38:24

because you got to go hundreds of

38:27

feet into the earth, you just

38:29

go 50 feet and it just

38:31

figures it out. So

38:35

that's possible and I think there will

38:37

be people that use these AI models to go and solve

38:39

those things. And

38:41

then after that, I think you get

38:43

into the world of it's not just robots

38:46

that are in a computer, but

38:48

it's like a physical robot. And

38:51

those physical robots are going to do things

38:53

that today will make

38:55

so much sense in hindsight. So an example, I

38:57

was thinking about this this weekend. Imagine

39:00

if you had a bunch of optimists, like

39:03

Tesla's robot, and they

39:05

were the beat cops. They

39:08

were the highway patrol. Now

39:12

what happens there? Well first, you

39:15

don't put humans in the way. I

39:19

suspect then the reaction of those robots

39:21

could be markedly different. Now those robots

39:23

would be controlled remotely. So

39:25

the people that are remote now

39:28

can be a very different archetype. Instead of

39:30

the physical requirements of

39:32

policing, you now add this other layer,

39:34

which is the psychological elements

39:37

and the judgment. So

39:39

my point is that if you had robots

39:41

that were able to do the dangerous work

39:43

for humans, I

39:46

think it allows humans to do again, judgment,

39:50

those areas of judgment which are very gray and

39:52

fuzzy. It'll take a long

39:54

time for computers to be able to replace us

39:56

to do that. I really do think so. I

39:58

think the biggest thing... that we have

40:02

done as a disservice

40:05

to what is coming is some

40:08

folks have tried to say that AI is the end all

40:10

and be all. And I think the better

40:12

way to think about this is that you

40:15

know how you used to have to get

40:18

your spelling right in an email? And

40:20

now you just don't think about it because Gmail just fixes

40:22

it. It

40:24

up-levels us. You used to

40:27

have to remember the details of like

40:29

some crazy theory, random detail fact. Now

40:31

you can just Google it. So you

40:33

can leave your mind to

40:35

focus on other things, right?

40:38

The creativity to write your

40:40

next set, to think about the next interview, to

40:43

think about your business

40:46

because you're occupying less time with the

40:48

perfunctory stuff. I

40:50

think these models are doing that

40:53

and they're going to get complemented with physical models.

40:56

Meaning physical robots. And

40:59

they're going to do a lot of work for us that

41:01

we have not done. Or

41:04

today that we do very precariously. You

41:07

know like should a robot go in and save you from

41:09

a fire? I think it can probably do a pretty

41:11

good job. They'll have multiple

41:13

sensors. They'll have vision. They'll be able to

41:15

understand exactly what's going on. If

41:17

something is falling, they'll just be able to put their hand up

41:19

and just like stuff. You know what I mean? If

41:22

they encounter any person of any body weight, it's

41:25

no problem. Pick that person up.

41:27

Transport them. Again,

41:29

it allows humans to

41:32

focus on the things that

41:34

we're really, really differentiated at. I

41:38

do think it creates complications, but

41:40

we have to figure those out. So

41:44

that's like a short, medium, long

41:46

term. Well, I see what you're

41:48

saying in the final example as

41:50

the rosy scenario. That's the best

41:52

case option, right? That it gives

41:54

people the freedom to be more

41:56

creative and to pursue different things.

41:58

And I think... there's always going to be

42:01

a market for handmade things.

42:03

People like things that

42:05

like they're like an

42:07

acoustic performance. They like stuff where it's

42:10

like very human and very real. But

42:13

there's a lot of people that just want

42:15

a job. And these

42:17

people maybe just aren't

42:20

inclined towards creativity. And maybe

42:22

they're very simple people who just want a job and

42:25

they just want to work. Those

42:27

are the people that I worry about. I worry about them

42:29

as well. And I think that like I

42:33

didn't live in the agrarian economy nor in

42:35

the industrial revolution. So I don't know how

42:37

we solve this problem. But

42:39

we have seen that problem two times.

42:43

And each time we found a way.

42:47

And this goes back to sort of like news

42:49

and politics and like just working together.

42:52

But in each of those moments we found a

42:54

way to make things substantively

42:56

better for all people. Like

42:59

I saw this crazy stat in 1800. Do

43:02

you know how many people lived in extreme

43:04

poverty? How many? Whoa.

43:07

You know where we are today? Sub 10%. Single

43:10

digits. And it's

43:12

a straight line that goes like this. And that

43:14

was through an agrarian revolution. It was through the

43:16

industrial revolution. So it

43:18

is possible for humans to cooperate to

43:20

solve these problems. I

43:23

don't know what the answer is but I do think you are

43:25

right that it will put a lot of

43:27

pressure on a lot of people. But

43:30

that's why we got to just figure this out. What

43:32

are your thoughts on universal basic income

43:34

as a band aid to sort of

43:37

mitigate that transition? I'm

43:40

pretty sympathetic to that idea. I

43:43

grew up on welfare. So

43:46

what I can tell you is that there are a

43:48

lot of people who are

43:51

trying their best. And

43:53

for whatever set of boundary conditions, can't figure

43:55

it out. I grew up on welfare as

43:57

well. If

44:00

I didn't have that safety net, my

44:06

parents' struggles, I think

44:08

would have gotten even worse than what they were. So

44:12

I'm a believer in that social safety net. I

44:14

think it's really important. It's the best case scenario,

44:16

right? Because your parents worked their way out of

44:18

it, my parents worked their way out of it,

44:21

but some people are just content to

44:23

just get a check. This

44:26

is the issue I think that a lot

44:29

of people have, is that people will become

44:31

entitled and just want to collect a check.

44:33

If it's a substantial portion

44:35

of our country, like if universal

44:37

basic income, if AI

44:39

eliminates, let's just say a crazy

44:42

number, like 70% of the manual

44:44

labor jobs, truck drivers, construction workers,

44:46

all that stuff gets eliminated, that's

44:48

a lot of people without a

44:50

purpose. One of the

44:52

things that a good day's work and

44:54

earning your pay, it makes

44:56

people feel self-sufficient. It makes people feel

44:58

valuable. It gives them a sense of

45:01

purpose. They could look at the thing

45:03

that they did, maybe build a building or something like

45:05

that and drive their kids by, hey, we built that

45:07

building right there. Wow. It's

45:10

a part of their identity. If

45:12

they just get a check, and then what

45:14

do they do? Just play video games all day? That's

45:16

the worst case scenario, is that people

45:19

just get locked into this world of

45:21

computers and online and just

45:23

receive checks and have the

45:25

bare necessities to survive and are content with

45:27

that and then don't contribute at all. The

45:33

jobs that ... Let's put it

45:35

this way. If we were

45:38

sitting here in 1924, whatever, 100 years

45:40

ago, right in the midst of the

45:42

turn of

45:46

the Industrial Revolution, we

45:49

would have seen a lot of folks that

45:51

worked on farms and

45:54

we would have wondered, well, where are those

45:56

jobs going to come from? I

46:01

think that now when you look

46:03

back, it was like not

46:06

obvious, but you could see where the

46:08

new job classes came from. It's like

46:10

all of these industries that were possible

46:12

because we built a factory. And

46:14

a factory turned out to be a substrate,

46:17

and then you built all these different kinds of

46:19

businesses which created different kinds of jobs on top

46:21

of it. I

46:24

would hope that if we do this right, this

46:27

next leap is like that, where

46:29

we are in a period where

46:31

it's hard to know with certainty what

46:35

this job class goes to over here. But

46:38

I think you have a responsibility to go and figure

46:40

it out and talk it

46:42

out and play it out because

46:45

the past would tell you that we

46:48

have a really good humans when

46:51

they're unimpeded, have a really

46:53

good ability to invent these things.

46:56

So I don't know, maybe what

46:58

it is is by 2035, there's a

47:01

billion people that have traveled to

47:04

Mars and you're

47:07

building an entire planet from the ground

47:09

up. There'll be

47:11

all sorts of work to do there. What

47:14

kind of people are going to go first there? I

47:17

think that there'll be a lot of people that are frustrated

47:19

with what's happening here. Sure,

47:22

just like the people that got on the

47:24

Pinta, the Santa Maria and made their way

47:26

across the ocean. It all starts with a

47:28

group of people that are just like, I'm

47:30

fed up with this. But

47:33

to want to go to a place that

47:35

doesn't even have an atmosphere that's capable of

47:38

sustaining human life and

47:41

you can only go back every couple

47:43

of years, those people are going

47:45

to be psychos. You're going to have a completely

47:48

psychotic Australia on

47:50

meth. It's

47:53

like the worst case scenario of the cast

47:55

outs of society. Just

47:58

like what you say is it. It's so

48:00

true, but if you think about what

48:03

that decision looked like 400 years

48:06

ago when that first group

48:08

of prisoners were put on a boat and sent to

48:10

Australia, that's probably what it

48:12

felt like. Most people

48:15

on the mainland when they were like,

48:17

Jachao, were probably thinking, man, this is

48:19

insane. So

48:21

it'll always look like that. It'll be easier

48:23

to rationalize it in hindsight, but

48:25

I do think that there will be a lot of people

48:27

that want to go when it's possible to go. And

48:31

look, we're in the studio. We

48:35

could be anywhere. We could be in Salt Lake

48:37

City. We could be in Rome. We

48:40

could be in Perth. You

48:42

don't know. All the same. Especially

48:44

today. So you could be on Mars. Yeah,

48:46

you could. You wouldn't know. Yeah. That

48:49

could be the future. Instantaneous

48:52

communication with people on

48:55

other planets, just like you could talk to people

48:57

in New Zealand today. So that's

48:59

an amazing example

49:02

of an innovation in

49:04

material science that

49:06

we have been experimenting with for years.

49:08

So basically at the

49:10

core of what you just said is

49:12

a semiconductor problem. It's

49:14

a doping problem. Is

49:17

it silicon germanium? Is

49:19

it silicon germanium with something else? And

49:22

the problem, Joe, is to answer what you

49:24

just said is a tractable

49:27

problem that has been bounded

49:30

by energy and computers. And

49:33

we're at a point where we're

49:35

almost at infinite energy. And

49:37

at a point where we're almost at like, what

49:40

I say is very specific, which is

49:42

we're at the point where right

49:44

in the distance is the

49:47

marginal cost of energy is basically zero.

49:49

The marginal cost, meaning to generate the

49:51

next kilowatt, is going to cost like

49:53

sub a penny. Even

49:55

with today's stuff, you don't need nuclear. You don't need any of

49:58

that stuff. We're just on this trend line right now. And

50:02

because of AI, we're at the

50:04

point where to get an answer to a question,

50:06

super complicated, is going to be basically zero,

50:09

the cost of that. When

50:11

you put those two things together, what

50:14

you just said, we will be in

50:16

a position to answer. The world will be able

50:18

to say, oh, Joe, you want instantaneous communication between

50:20

here and Mars? We need to harden

50:23

these communication chips. We're going to build it with

50:25

this stuff, which we simulated on a computer. We

50:28

made it. It's shipping, we're done. Now

50:30

that will still take five and 10 years to do,

50:32

but my point is all

50:34

these things that sound crazy are not.

50:39

They're actually not that crazy. These

50:41

things are achievable technical

50:43

milestones. Everything

50:46

will boil down to a technical question that I think

50:48

we can answer. You want a hoverboard?

50:50

We could probably figure it out. Well

50:53

then also with quantum computing, and one

50:55

of the things about AI that's been

50:57

talked about is this massive

50:59

need for energy. They're

51:01

going, at least it's been proposed,

51:04

to develop nuclear sites specifically to

51:06

power AI, which is

51:08

wild. Yeah. I have

51:10

to be ... You got

51:15

to dance around this? No,

51:18

I'll tell you what I think. Okay,

51:25

well, maybe

51:28

before I give you my opinion, I'll

51:30

tell you the facts. Okay.

51:35

Today, it costs about four

51:37

cents a kilowatt hour. Don't

51:39

forget the units. Just remember the four cents concept.

51:43

Twenty years ago, it costs six or seven cents. If

51:46

you go and get solar panels on your roof, basically

51:49

cost nothing. In fact, you can probably make

51:51

money. It costs you like negative one cent

51:53

because you can sell the energy in many

51:55

parts of America back to the

51:57

grid. If

52:00

you look inside the energy market, the

52:03

cost has been compounding, and you

52:05

would say, well, how does this make sense? If

52:08

the generation cost keeps falling,

52:11

why is my end user cost keep going up? This

52:14

doesn't make any sense. When you look

52:16

inside, we

52:19

have a regulatory

52:24

burden in America that

52:27

says to the utilities of which they're like less

52:29

than 2,000 in America. We're

52:32

giving you a monopoly, effectively. In

52:35

this area of Austin, you can provide all the

52:37

energy. Now, Texas is different, but I'm just using

52:39

it as an example. But

52:42

in return, I'm going

52:44

to allow you to increase prices, but

52:46

I'm going to demand that you improve the

52:49

infrastructure. Every few

52:51

years, you've got to upgrade the grid. You've got to

52:53

put money into this, money into that. Over

52:56

the next 10 years, we've got to put a trillion dollars, America

52:59

collectively, into improving the

53:02

current grid, which

53:04

I think will not be enough, because

53:06

it is aging, and most

53:09

importantly, it's insecure, meaning

53:12

folks can penetrate that, folks can hack it, folks

53:14

can do all kinds of stuff. Then

53:18

it fails in critical moments. I

53:20

think that in Austin, you had a whole bunch

53:22

of really crazy outages in the last

53:25

couple of years. People died. In

53:28

2024, that's totally unacceptable. I

53:33

think as people

53:35

decide that they want resilience, you're

53:39

going to see 110 million power

53:41

plants, which

53:44

is every homeowner in the United States. Everybody's

53:47

going to generate their own energy. Everybody's

53:50

going to store their energy in a power wall.

53:52

This stuff is going to become, I mean,

53:56

absolutely dirt cheap, and

53:58

it'll just be the way. that

54:01

energy is generated. So you have

54:03

this, but this is not the whole

54:05

solution, because you still need the big guys to show up.

54:09

When you look inside of like the big

54:11

guys, so like now you're talking about these

54:13

2,000 utilities that need to spend trillions of

54:15

dollars, they

54:18

can do a lot of stuff right now to make

54:20

enough energy to make

54:22

things work. But when you look

54:24

at nuclear, I would

54:26

just say that there are two different

54:28

kinds of nuclear. There's the old

54:30

and the new. The old stuff, I

54:33

agree with you, it's just money and you can get it

54:35

turned back on. It's

54:37

a specific isotope of uranium, you can deal

54:39

with it, everybody knows in that world how

54:43

to manage that safely. But

54:45

then what you have are like these next generation things, and this

54:48

is where I get a little stuck, and

54:50

I'm not smart enough to know all of it, but

54:53

I'm close enough to be slightly ticked off by

54:56

it. There's a materials and

54:58

a technical problem with these things, and

55:00

what I mean back to materials. Some

55:04

of these next-gen reactors need

55:07

a material that will take you

55:09

like 50 years in America,

55:11

in the world, to like harvest and ounce.

55:14

The only place where you can really get

55:16

it is the moon in sufficient quantity. Are

55:18

you really gonna, what I mean, that's how

55:20

it's gonna work? You're gonna go to the

55:22

moon, you're gonna go to the moon, you're

55:24

gonna harness this material, then you know

55:27

schlep it all the way

55:29

back to someplace in Illinois to make stuff.

55:31

I find that hard

55:33

to believe. What is the material? I

55:37

can find it, it's in an email that one of my

55:39

folks sent me, but it's like it's a certain

55:43

form of reactor that uses a

55:45

very rare material

55:48

to create the plasmonic energy that can generate

55:50

all of this stuff, and it's just very

55:52

hard to find on earth. So I kind

55:54

of scratch my head. What's the benefit of

55:56

this particular type of reactor? Enormous energy. So

55:59

like you know, a solar cell gets this

56:01

much energy, a nuclear reactor

56:03

does this, and this other thing does that, and

56:06

it's super clean. My

56:08

point is, these next-gen reactors, I think, have

56:11

some pretty profound technical problems that haven't

56:13

been figured out. I applaud the people

56:17

that are going after it, but

56:19

I think it's important to not oversell

56:22

that because it's super hard,

56:25

and there's still some profound

56:28

technical challenges that haven't been solved

56:30

yet. We just got past what's

56:33

called positive net energy, meaning ...

56:37

I'm making

56:40

up a number. A

56:42

hundred units of energy in, and at least

56:45

you try to get out 100.01, and we're

56:47

kind of

56:50

there. That's

56:52

where we are on these next-gen reactors.

56:54

The old generation of reactors, I'm a

56:56

total believer in, and we should be

56:58

building these things as

57:01

fast as possible so that

57:03

we have an infinite amount of energy.

57:05

By the way, if you have infinite energy, the

57:07

most important thing I think that happens is you

57:09

have a massive peace dividend. The

57:13

odds of the United States going to war when

57:15

we have infinite energy approach is

57:18

zero. But isn't the problem

57:21

with introducing this to other countries, and

57:23

I believe it was India where they

57:26

introduced nuclear power plants, then they realized

57:28

very quickly they could figure out how

57:30

to make nuclear weapons from that. Yes.

57:33

Yes. When the uranium degrades, it can

57:35

be used in weapons-grade uranium. The

57:37

real problem would be if that is

57:40

not a small handful of countries that

57:42

have nuclear weapons, but the entire world,

57:44

it could get very sketchy. I

57:48

think you're touching what

57:51

I think, objectively to me,

57:55

is the single biggest threat facing

57:57

all of us today. I

58:09

escaped a civil war, so I've

58:11

had a lived experience of how

58:15

destructive war could be. The collateral

58:17

damage of war is terrible. Where were you?

58:20

In Sri Lanka. I

58:24

was part of the ethnic majority, Sinhalese

58:26

Buddhist. They

58:30

were fighting Hindu Tamil

58:32

minority. It was

58:34

a 20-year civil war. It flipped the whole

58:37

country upside down from an incredible place with

58:39

99% literacy to just a

58:44

struggling, developing third-world country. We

58:47

moved to Canada. We

58:49

stay in Canada. My

58:53

parents do whatever they could. They

58:55

got run over by that war. They went from

58:57

a solidly middle-class

58:59

life to

59:01

my father had a ton

59:03

of alcoholism and didn't really work,

59:05

and my mother went from being a nurse to

59:08

being a housekeeper. It

59:10

was dysfunctional. It

59:14

really crippled, I think, their dreams for themselves.

59:17

They breathed that into their kids. Fine.

59:20

But that can't be the solution where hundreds of

59:22

millions or billions of people have to deal with

59:24

that risk. I

59:27

am objectively afraid that

59:30

we have lost the script a little bit. I

59:32

think that folks don't

59:34

really understand how destructive war

59:37

can be, but also

59:39

that there are not

59:42

enough people objectively afraid of this. That's

59:45

what sends my spidey senses up and says,

59:47

hold on a second. When

59:49

everybody is telling you that this

59:51

is off the table and not possible, shouldn't

59:55

you just look at the world around and

59:57

ask, are we sure that that's true? And

1:00:01

I come and I think to myself,

1:00:03

wow, we are at the biggest risk

1:00:05

of my lifetime. And

1:00:08

I think the only thing that is

1:00:10

probably near this is maybe

1:00:12

at some point in the Cold War, I don't know because I

1:00:14

was so young, definitely Bay

1:00:18

of Pigs, but

1:00:20

it required JFK to draw a hard line

1:00:22

in the sand and

1:00:24

say, absolutely not. So

1:00:28

will we be that fortunate this time

1:00:30

around? Are we going to find a

1:00:32

way to eliminate that existential risk? This

1:00:34

is why my

1:00:36

current sort of like vein of

1:00:38

political philosophy is mostly that, which

1:00:41

is like

1:00:43

the Democrats and the Republicans, there's

1:00:45

just so much fighting over

1:00:47

so many small stakes issues in the

1:00:49

sense that some

1:00:52

of these issues matter more or

1:00:55

less in different points, but there is

1:00:57

one issue above all which where if

1:00:59

you get it wrong, nothing matters. And

1:01:01

that is nuclear war. And

1:01:05

you have two and a

1:01:07

half nuclear powers now that

1:01:09

are out and about extending

1:01:12

and projecting their power into the world,

1:01:15

Russia, China, and

1:01:17

Iran. That

1:01:20

wasn't what it was like 10 years ago. That

1:01:23

wasn't what it was like 25 years ago. It wasn't even

1:01:25

what it was like four years ago. And

1:01:28

I just don't think enough people take a step back and say,

1:01:30

hold on a second. If this thing

1:01:33

escalates, all

1:01:35

this stuff that you and I just talked about won't matter.

1:01:39

Whether our kids are on Adderall

1:01:41

or not or the iPad, don't

1:01:43

give them so much Fortnite or

1:01:45

material science or optimists.

1:01:48

It's all off the table because

1:01:50

we will be destroying

1:01:53

ourselves. And

1:01:55

I just think that that's tragic. We have

1:01:57

an enormous responsibility right now for... We

1:06:00

collectively don't understand that. We sweep

1:06:03

it under the carpet and we talk about

1:06:05

all the other things. And

1:06:07

I understand that some of those things, all

1:06:10

of those things, let's say, matter, but at

1:06:13

some point in time, nothing

1:06:15

matters. Because if you don't get this

1:06:17

right, nothing matters. And

1:06:20

I think we have to find a way of finding

1:06:22

people that draw a bright red line and

1:06:25

say, this is the line I will never cross

1:06:27

under any circumstance. And

1:06:30

I think America needs to do that first because

1:06:32

it's what gives everybody else the ability to

1:06:34

exit stage left and be okay with it. The

1:06:37

other problem that America clearly has

1:06:39

is that there's an enormous portion

1:06:42

of what controls

1:06:46

the government, whether you want to call it

1:06:48

the military industrial complex or military

1:06:51

contractors. There's so much money to

1:06:53

be made in pushing that line,

1:06:55

pushing it to the brink of

1:06:57

destruction but not past, maintaining a

1:06:59

constant state of war but not

1:07:02

an apocalypse. And as

1:07:04

long as there's financial incentives

1:07:06

to keep escalating and you're

1:07:09

still getting money and they're

1:07:11

still signing off on hundreds

1:07:13

of billions of dollars to funnel this

1:07:15

and it's all going through these military

1:07:18

contractors and bringing over weapons and gear.

1:07:21

The windfall is huge. The amount of money

1:07:23

is huge. And they do not want to

1:07:25

shut that off for the sake of humanity,

1:07:28

especially if someone can rationalize. You

1:07:30

get this diffusion of responsibility when there's a whole

1:07:32

bunch of people together and they're all talking about

1:07:34

it. Everyone's kind of on the same page and

1:07:36

you have shareholders that you have to represent. The

1:07:39

whole thing is bananas. So I think you just

1:07:41

said the key thing. This may be super

1:07:44

naive. But

1:07:47

I think part of the most

1:07:49

salvageable feature of the military

1:07:52

industrial complex is that these

1:07:54

are for-profit, largely public companies

1:07:58

that have shareholders. And

1:08:01

I think that if you nudge them

1:08:05

to making things that

1:08:08

are equally economically

1:08:10

valuable or

1:08:12

more, ideally more, they

1:08:14

probably would do that. What

1:08:17

would be an example of that

1:08:19

other than weapons manufacturing? What would

1:08:21

be equally economically viable? So

1:08:23

when you look at the primes,

1:08:27

the five big kind of like

1:08:30

folks that get all of the economic

1:08:34

activity from the Department of

1:08:36

Defense, what they act is

1:08:39

as an organizing principle for a bunch of

1:08:41

subs underneath, effectively. They're like a general contractor

1:08:43

and then they have a bunch of subcontractors.

1:08:47

There's a bunch of stuff that's happening in

1:08:49

these things that

1:08:52

you can reorient if you

1:08:54

had an economy that could support

1:08:56

it. So for example, when

1:08:58

you build a drone, what

1:09:01

you also are building a subcomponent, a

1:09:03

critical and very valued subcomponent, all

1:09:06

the navigation, all the communications, all of it

1:09:08

has to be encrypted. You can't

1:09:10

hack it. You can't do any of that stuff. There

1:09:13

is a broad set of commercial applications

1:09:15

for that that are equal

1:09:17

to and greater than just the profit

1:09:20

margin of selling the drone, but they don't

1:09:22

really explore those markets. If

1:09:25

for example, we are multiplanetary,

1:09:27

I'll just go back to that example,

1:09:32

I will bet you those

1:09:35

same organizations will make two or

1:09:37

three times as much money by

1:09:40

being able to redirect that same technology

1:09:43

into those systems that you just described. Hey,

1:09:45

I need an entire communications infrastructure that goes

1:09:47

from Earth to the moon

1:09:50

to Mars. We need to be able to

1:09:52

triangulate. We need internet access across all these

1:09:54

endpoints. We need to be real time from

1:09:56

the get-go. There's

1:09:58

just an enormous amount. a

1:22:00

tactical unit and they have Belgian Malinois

1:22:02

and bulletproof vests and machine guns. The

1:22:04

whole thing's crazy and they get in

1:22:07

shootouts with the cartel in National Forest

1:22:09

Land because it's a misdemeanor

1:22:13

to grow pot illegally in a

1:22:15

state where pot is legal. So

1:22:17

California has legal marijuana. You could

1:22:19

go to any store, anywhere, use

1:22:21

credit cards. It's open free market.

1:22:24

If you follow the rules, you can open

1:22:26

up a store. But if you don't follow

1:22:29

the rules, you can sell it illegally and

1:22:31

it's just a misdemeanor. I wanted to learn

1:22:33

about marijuana, the market, but

1:22:35

you can't process the money, I think.

1:22:37

In some states. I know in

1:22:39

Colorado it was a real problem and in Colorado

1:22:41

they had to do everything in cash. Yeah, it's

1:22:44

like breaking bad bricks of cash and all of

1:22:46

these things. Well, they were using mercenaries. They're

1:22:49

essentially using military contractors

1:22:51

to run the money back

1:22:53

and forth to the bank because you had to bring

1:22:56

the bank money in bulk. So

1:22:58

you'd have a million dollars in an armored

1:23:01

car and a bunch of guys tailing the

1:23:03

car in front of the car and they're

1:23:05

driving into the bank and everyone knows there's

1:23:07

a million dollars in that car. So

1:23:10

you have to really be fortified. And

1:23:13

so it was very sketchy for a lot of people. I

1:23:15

don't know what the current condition in Colorado

1:23:18

is now. I don't know if they still

1:23:20

have to do it that way. A couple

1:23:22

of companies, I remember the reason I know

1:23:25

this is a guy came and

1:23:27

pitched me on some business and he

1:23:29

was the software for all that.

1:23:34

I think the company went public and I just

1:23:36

realized it just went sideways because nobody wanted to

1:23:38

touch it because they didn't want to build rails

1:23:41

for that economy, which didn't make

1:23:43

much sense seeing as, to me

1:23:46

at least, just because if the laws say it's legal

1:23:48

then it should all be treated equally. But

1:23:50

then the problem, I think I remember them telling

1:23:52

me, was that federally it's still gray. Yeah,

1:23:55

it's gray and they're trying to diminish that.

1:23:58

The latest steps during the body administration. is

1:24:00

to change it to a schedule three and

1:24:02

that's up for that's a proposal

1:24:04

that's going that would that would help but really

1:24:06

it should be just like alcohol it

1:24:09

should be something that you have to be 21 years old to

1:24:11

buy should have to have an ID and we

1:24:13

should educate people how to use it responsibly and

1:24:15

we should also pay attention to whoever the fuck

1:24:17

is growing it and make sure you're not going

1:24:19

wacky you know like there's there's people that are

1:24:21

botanists that are out of their mind potheads that

1:24:24

are just 24 7 hit and bongs and they're

1:24:27

making stuff that will put you on

1:24:29

Mars like without Elon Musk I remember

1:24:31

the the

1:24:33

problem that somebody raised I

1:24:36

read this in an article was you

1:24:38

need to make it more than

1:24:41

what it like more legal than it is today

1:24:43

so that you can get folks to put like

1:24:45

some version of a nutritional label on the thing

1:24:47

and show intensity right because the

1:24:49

intensity is not regulated right well they

1:24:51

do regulate it in California if you

1:24:53

go to good places in California let's

1:24:55

say this is 39% THC which

1:24:58

is very high this is 37 this

1:25:00

is you know but then there's also

1:25:02

the problem with one thing that marijuana

1:25:04

seems to do to some people that

1:25:07

alcohol doesn't necessarily some people have a

1:25:09

propensity for alcoholism and it seems to

1:25:11

be genetic but

1:25:13

there's a thing that happens with marijuana

1:25:16

where people who have a tendency towards

1:25:18

schizophrenia marijuana can push them

1:25:20

over the edge and Alex Berenson wrote a great

1:25:22

book about this called tell your kids and

1:25:26

I've personally witnessed people who've lost

1:25:28

their marbles and I think it's

1:25:31

people that have this propensity because

1:25:33

one of the things that I

1:25:35

think is beneficial about marijuana in

1:25:38

particular and this is some of

1:25:40

the one of the things that freaks people

1:25:42

out is the paranoia right well paranoia is

1:25:44

I feel I feel like what it is

1:25:46

is a hyper awareness and I

1:25:48

think it it pushes down all these

1:25:50

boundaries that you've set up all these

1:25:53

walls and all these blinders so

1:25:55

that you you see the world for what it really

1:25:57

is and a lot of people it freaks out but

1:25:59

What I think it does is it

1:26:02

ultimately makes you more compassionate and kinder

1:26:04

and nicer. And you realize like... In

1:26:06

the moment or afterwards? Afterwards.

1:26:08

Afterwards. I think it's a

1:26:11

tool for recognizing

1:26:13

things that you are

1:26:15

conveniently ignoring. And

1:26:17

you know, my friend Eddie told me about this

1:26:19

once. He was saying, if you're having a bad

1:26:21

time and you smoke marijuana, you're going to have

1:26:23

a worse time because you're already freaking out. You're

1:26:25

already freaking out about something. You know, if you're

1:26:28

going through a horrible breakup and you get high,

1:26:30

you're like, oh, no one loves me.

1:26:32

But if you're having a great time with

1:26:34

your friends, you'll probably just laugh and be

1:26:37

silly, right? Because you're not freaking out about

1:26:39

something. You probably... You're in a good place

1:26:41

mentally, which we should all strive to be

1:26:43

in a good place. I have this weird

1:26:46

psychosomatic guard

1:26:48

that developed. My father was an alcoholic

1:26:51

and I didn't drink at all

1:26:54

in my teens, in my 20s, and mostly in my 30s.

1:26:58

And then in my mid 30s, I started drinking

1:27:00

wine and I love wine and I think I

1:27:02

can handle it and I really enjoy it. I

1:27:04

love it. I do too. But

1:27:07

I cannot drink hard alcohol. The

1:27:09

minute that it touches my lips, I

1:27:11

get severe hiccups. I

1:27:14

mean, like debilitatingly bad hiccups.

1:27:16

Really? Any kind of alcohol.

1:27:18

Do you think it's psychosomatic? I think it's completely

1:27:20

psychosomatic because it makes no logical sense. If

1:27:23

the tequila touches my lip, I just start

1:27:25

hiccuping like crazy. And it's like this weird

1:27:27

protective thing that I think my brain has

1:27:29

developed because my dad used to drink some

1:27:31

stuff that would like make you

1:27:33

blind. Right? Like moonshine.

1:27:35

It was like 150% proof the guy would just chug it.

1:27:40

I mean, he was... Well, I think there

1:27:42

are whiskey connoisseurs and there are... I

1:27:44

mean, there is like

1:27:46

scotch, like old scotch does have

1:27:48

a fantastic taste. It's got an

1:27:51

interesting sort of an acquired taste.

1:27:54

But there's real wine connoisseurs. Wine is

1:27:56

incredible. Wine is a different animal. The

1:27:58

flavor of wine... like

1:30:01

your dinner and I'm like

1:30:03

what is there a cap you know

1:30:05

and he's like this time no cap and first I was

1:30:07

like God I must have lost a lot of money. What

1:30:12

did they say? No cap?

1:30:15

For $19,000 why? So then I said fuck

1:30:18

it I'm just gonna try this so I went

1:30:20

to Caesars and it was like four

1:30:22

or five thousand dollars I mean I would never buy this

1:30:24

in a norm but I got it cuz it was free.

1:30:28

Joe's okay all

1:30:30

this build up in my mind this is oh

1:30:32

my god this is gonna be ethereal it's gonna

1:30:34

be ambrosia it was not ambrosia. Whereas

1:30:38

you can find these other ones that are made

1:30:40

by you know folks that just put their entire

1:30:43

lives into it you taste

1:30:45

the whole story I

1:30:47

just think it's incredible. It's a weird

1:30:49

status thing the expensive wine it's just

1:30:51

like Cuban cigars. It's really dumb. Yeah

1:30:53

it's a weird thing. The real skill

1:30:55

is being able to know price

1:30:58

value and when

1:31:00

you know it it's so satisfying because

1:31:02

it's like oh this is just delicious and then

1:31:05

when your friends enjoy it they're like oh my

1:31:07

god this is delicious and I'm like yeah that's

1:31:09

80 bucks. Yeah. How? And

1:31:11

I'm like well it's very hard to find so then

1:31:13

the skill is like it's funny I'll

1:31:15

tell you this is how bad wine has

1:31:18

gotten for me meaning like I

1:31:20

love the story I love the people

1:31:22

I want to support the industry so I

1:31:25

went to register for an

1:31:27

alcohol license at the ABC

1:31:29

in California. Really? Because I was tired

1:31:33

and frustrated of trying to buy retail

1:31:35

because you have to go through folks that have their

1:31:38

own point of view and

1:31:40

I was like well if we just become

1:31:43

you know we as in like me and a

1:31:46

friend of mine and so we set up a thing

1:31:48

we set up a little I filed

1:31:50

the paperwork and

1:31:52

it's called like you know CJ Wine

1:31:55

LLC you know my friend

1:31:57

me and Joshua and

1:31:59

we're able to negotiate directly

1:32:02

with the wineries. And

1:32:04

we're able to get it from wholesalers in Europe or

1:32:07

in South Africa or in Australia.

1:32:10

And it just allows us to buy

1:32:12

a bottle, try it, if we really like it. Thursday

1:32:15

nights at my house is always poker. We

1:32:18

serve it to our friends, if they like it, then we can

1:32:20

buy a couple cases, I can share with my friends and you

1:32:22

get it at wholesale. It's a great little hack. Is there

1:32:24

a limitation? Is there a certain

1:32:26

specific amount that you have to buy? I look

1:32:29

like a retail store. You

1:32:31

could be like Amazon. And so

1:32:33

a retail store could just buy a few bottles? They

1:32:35

could buy a case. They could buy a few

1:32:38

bottles. That's a little bit harder. So you

1:32:40

have to have a more personal relationship. But

1:32:43

then the really good stuff, you can buy a few cases

1:32:45

and then pass them on to your friends. And I don't

1:32:47

know. It's, I think, wine's incredible. And

1:32:50

with food is incredible. But when I hear people

1:32:52

that are going to open up their own wine

1:32:54

label, I'm like, oh, good Lord. How

1:32:57

much do you know about wine? Like,

1:32:59

oh, I'm going to start a wine business. Like, what?

1:33:02

I went to a couple of these wineries.

1:33:04

And I just asked them, just out of

1:33:06

like, just explain to me how

1:33:09

you got there. And all

1:33:11

I could think of was, man, this is

1:33:13

way too complicated. But these folks, it's like

1:33:15

animal husbandry. They're breeding this

1:33:18

fine with this fine. But then they're going to

1:33:20

take, you know, cleave off this little bit. So

1:33:22

it's like, it's a breeding program over 10

1:33:24

and 20 and 30 years. And

1:33:27

it's like, this is really

1:33:29

complicated. Oh, yeah. They do

1:33:31

weird stuff. Like, they'll splice

1:33:33

avocado trees with, what is

1:33:35

that nut? Pistachios.

1:33:38

So they'll take avocado trees and they

1:33:41

splice them with pistachios to make the

1:33:43

tree more sturdy. Like, you can take

1:33:45

two different species of tree. And

1:33:47

if you cut them sideways and splice them

1:33:49

together, they'll grow. A friend of mine

1:33:52

started a company that's making like potatoes. And

1:33:54

he makes like these ginormous potatoes like

1:33:56

this. It's an incredible thing because like

1:33:59

the yield is the

1:38:00

way my body responds. I can tell you how my body feels.

1:38:04

If I take a picture, I try to

1:38:06

work out and I take pretty detailed, what's

1:38:09

my BMI, what's my muscle mass, what's my

1:38:11

fat percentage? And I always

1:38:13

take those readings right before

1:38:15

I go. And

1:38:18

when I look afterwards, and

1:38:20

I don't do anything when I'm there, I

1:38:22

swim in the sea when I can, when

1:38:25

I'm on vacation or whatever, I walk a

1:38:27

lot, but nothing else. No weights,

1:38:29

no nothing. My

1:38:33

muscle mass stays the same. My

1:38:36

fat percentage goes down.

1:38:41

I look healthier

1:38:43

and I feel

1:38:47

really great. And

1:38:49

all I do is I just eat what's in front

1:38:51

of me. I don't think about quantities, whatever. But when

1:38:53

I'm back in the United States, so I get to

1:38:56

be there, call it six weeks a year, but

1:38:59

when I'm back in the United States, I have to

1:39:01

go back on lockdown because like a

1:39:03

lot of people, I

1:39:05

had this thing, like if you look at a picture of me in

1:39:07

Sri Lanka, I look

1:39:10

like old Dave Chappelle. I

1:39:15

was like this, I was just a total stick

1:39:17

figure within

1:39:20

one year of being in North America, in this

1:39:22

case in Canada, when you look at the school

1:39:24

pictures, I was fat. I

1:39:27

couldn't explain it to you. Just the difference in the food

1:39:29

system. And my parents were making the same things because they

1:39:32

wanted to have that comfort of what they were used to.

1:39:35

So I don't know

1:39:38

if it was the food supply or not, but it

1:39:40

has to be. It has to be. It has to

1:39:42

be. Everybody says the same thing. And then my whole

1:39:44

family has struggled with it. So

1:39:47

I think that there's something, and then when I go now

1:39:50

to Italy as a different reference example,

1:39:53

it's like the best shape of my life. And I

1:39:55

do less. You feel completely different. Even when you eat

1:39:57

things like pizza over there, you don't feel like... you

1:40:00

ate a brick. I've eaten pizza

1:40:02

here and I love it, but when I'm over I'm

1:40:04

like, oh what did you do? What did you do?

1:40:06

Like you ate a brick. But over there it's just

1:40:08

food. It tastes great. The pasta

1:40:11

doesn't bother you, nothing bothers you. It's

1:40:13

just whatever they're doing. And it's

1:40:15

there's many things. Just one of them they're

1:40:17

not using enriched flour and another thing is

1:40:20

they have heirloom flour so it hasn't been

1:40:22

maximized for the the most amount of gluten.

1:40:24

I'm curious to see what Bobby does if

1:40:26

Trump wins in this world, make

1:40:29

America healthy again. I don't exactly know what

1:40:31

his plans are. Yeah, what's

1:40:33

possible? Like how much can you really affect

1:40:35

with regulation? How much can you really bring

1:40:37

to light? And what are we gonna learn

1:40:39

about our food system? I mean even Canada,

1:40:42

if you could, one of the things about

1:40:44

the hearings that they just had was

1:40:46

they were comparing Lucky Charms that they sell

1:40:48

in the United States that are very brightly

1:40:50

colored versus Lucky Charms they sell in Canada.

1:40:53

Completely different looking product because in

1:40:56

Canada it's illegal to use those

1:40:59

dyes that we use ubiquitously. And

1:41:01

those dyes are terrible for you. We know they're

1:41:03

terrible for you. In Canada those are terrible for

1:41:05

you which is why they're illegal up there. The

1:41:07

food tastes the same. It still sucks. It's still

1:41:09

bad for you. It's still covered in sugar. But

1:41:11

at least doesn't have that fucking poison that just

1:41:13

makes it blue or red. And it is

1:41:17

impossible like to teach my kids healthy eating

1:41:19

habits as a result of this. The food

1:41:22

in the United States it's just it's

1:41:24

everywhere and it's beating

1:41:26

into you that this

1:41:28

is a cheap way of getting caloric intake.

1:41:31

And it is full of just all

1:41:33

these stuff you can't pronounce. It's garbage.

1:41:36

Yeah it's all garbage and it's so

1:41:38

it's so common. And then if you're in a

1:41:40

what they would call food desert, if you're in

1:41:43

a place that only has fast food, like

1:41:45

my god like your odds of being metabolically

1:41:47

healthy if you're poor and you're living in

1:41:49

a place that's a food desert. It's impossible.

1:41:52

It's fucked. It's impossible. It's too hard and

1:41:54

it's also very expensive which is even crazier.

1:41:56

It's so expensive to eat well and

1:41:59

to eat like clean. and make sure

1:42:01

that you don't have any additives and garbage in your food.

1:42:03

Do you remember

1:42:06

in like the 90s and 2000s

1:42:08

where what we were told

1:42:10

was fat was bad? Yeah. And

1:42:13

like you would see sugar-free and and I would

1:42:15

just buy it. Oh yeah sugar free is great.

1:42:17

Oh like sugar free I'm doing the healthy thing

1:42:19

here. This is great. Margarine. Margarine or then I

1:42:21

would see fat free and I'd be like oh

1:42:23

I'll do that. Yeah. And it turned out

1:42:25

all this stuff was just... Well it's

1:42:28

not even it's such a small

1:42:30

amount of people that affected that.

1:42:32

That's what's so terrifying. There's a

1:42:34

small amount of people who bribed

1:42:37

these scientists to falsify data

1:42:39

so that they could blame

1:42:41

all these coronary artery diseases

1:42:43

and heart diseases

1:42:46

on saturated fat when it was really

1:42:48

sugar that was causing all these problems.

1:42:51

And we had a very dysfunctional understanding

1:42:53

of health for the longest time. The

1:42:55

food pyramid was all fucked up. The

1:42:57

bottom of the food pyramid was all

1:42:59

bread and carbs. Yeah

1:43:01

it's so nuts and just made a

1:43:04

bunch of like really sloppy humans and

1:43:06

you could see it in the beaches the photos from the 1960s versus

1:43:09

looking at people in the 2000s. Have you

1:43:11

had Casey and Kelly Means on? They're coming

1:43:13

on. Yeah. They're coming on. Yeah. They

1:43:16

have an incredible story. Should

1:43:18

I say it or we can just... Sure. Yeah. They

1:43:20

have this incredible story

1:43:22

that they tell about what happened

1:43:25

and what they say is in

1:43:27

the 80s when you had

1:43:29

these mergers, one of the

1:43:32

mega mergers that happened was tobacco

1:43:34

company with food company. There was two of them

1:43:37

and a lot of the scientists started

1:43:39

to focus some of their energy on

1:43:41

taking that skill, I'll just put that

1:43:43

in quotes, of making something very addictive

1:43:46

and transposing it to food. It's

1:43:49

like okay if I'm at RJR and I'm used

1:43:51

to making cigarettes, how do

1:43:53

I think about structurally building up something

1:43:55

that wants you to

1:43:57

eat more but now instead of smoking, instead of a cigarette,

1:43:59

it's... Soda?

1:46:00

Yeah. And it was like 10% of

1:46:03

the total budget or? Something nutty like

1:46:05

that. It's like some ginormous amount of money

1:46:07

is just basically giving folks sugar

1:46:09

water. Yeah. And

1:46:11

you wonder why. Now the solution is just

1:46:13

to give everybody on the back end of

1:46:15

it ozmpic. It's also like,

1:46:18

let's be real. That's not food. Okay?

1:46:22

It's something you put in your mouth, but you can't

1:46:24

buy cigarettes with food stamps. All right? So

1:46:26

if you buy, you can't buy cigarettes with food

1:46:28

stamps, why should you be able to buy something

1:46:30

that's really bad for you? I mean, what would

1:46:32

change if we said food stamps, we're going to

1:46:35

actually increase the amount that you get, but we're

1:46:37

going to regulate what you can buy. And you

1:46:39

have to buy all the things from the outside

1:46:41

of the store. I don't even think you have

1:46:43

to regulate it. Like,

1:46:45

think of what has happened because of companies

1:46:47

like Uber Eats and DoorDash as an example.

1:46:51

What have they done? And I'll tell

1:46:53

you why I think this is important. Those

1:46:55

guys have gone out and Cloud Kitchens. There's

1:46:57

three companies. They have

1:46:59

bought up every single kind

1:47:02

of warehouse in every part

1:47:04

of every city and suburb in

1:47:06

America. And what they put in

1:47:08

there are these things that

1:47:10

they call ghost kitchens. So that

1:47:13

when you launch the app and a lot of

1:47:15

the times when you get a drink from Starbucks,

1:47:17

it's not coming from the actual Starbucks down the

1:47:19

street. It's coming from a ghost kitchen. Why? Because

1:47:22

they centralize all the orders and it creates

1:47:24

an economy of scale. Why

1:47:27

am I telling you this? I think that

1:47:29

there is a way for food stamps to

1:47:31

sit on top of that infrastructure and just

1:47:33

deliver food. But the problem

1:47:35

is people, especially people that don't

1:47:38

know or care, want that sugar

1:47:40

water. Well. You

1:47:43

know, like the choices are...

1:47:45

I understand. Yeah. You're

1:47:48

going to have people that choose that Big Mac because it

1:47:50

is delicious. Yeah. And I think that

1:47:52

they are delicious. And once a year I have a Big Mac. But

1:47:56

I think if you're going to tie it to something like

1:47:59

a government subsidy... But

1:50:01

now there's an industry that's making

1:50:03

$3 trillion by giving people these

1:50:05

GLP ones. And the

1:50:07

problem is, just like every other

1:50:09

industry, once it starts making money, it does not

1:50:11

want to stop. And

1:50:13

by the way, I think that they should be allowed

1:50:15

to make money. But what I'm

1:50:18

saying is, in a free market, every

1:50:20

actor is allowed

1:50:22

to act rationally. And actually,

1:50:24

what you want is everybody to

1:50:27

have their own incentives and to act naturally.

1:50:29

That's when you get the best outcome. Because

1:50:31

if you're acting with some shadow agenda,

1:50:33

you're not going to necessarily do the right thing. So

1:50:35

my point is, in this example, the

1:50:39

government's job in this narrow

1:50:41

example is to get the

1:50:44

best healthcare outcome. Because if they're

1:50:46

doing any form of long-term planning,

1:50:49

it's pretty obvious. Like, we are hurtling

1:50:51

to a brick wall on

1:50:53

this healthcare issue with respect

1:50:56

to people's health. You don't have a solution. The

1:50:59

only solution cannot be to medicate

1:51:01

and then triple and quadruple the

1:51:05

budget deficit that we already don't have a

1:51:07

path to pay down. Right. Well,

1:51:09

the only other thing that I could think is if

1:51:11

there was some sort of a way that

1:51:15

would be effective at establishing

1:51:18

discipline other than just promoting it.

1:51:20

Like, I

1:51:22

could conceive of, especially when you're

1:51:24

dealing with something like Neuralink, or

1:51:27

some sort of a new way

1:51:29

of programming the mind, where

1:51:31

it just changes whatever the

1:51:34

behavior pattern is that accepts

1:51:37

these foods as choices. Like,

1:51:41

lobotomize your appetite. That would

1:51:44

be a very dystopian place. Sketchy

1:51:46

to fucking be an early adopter. If

1:51:48

you want the subsidy, you need to

1:51:50

get this brain impact. It would not

1:51:52

be a good place. Oh, that would

1:51:54

be bad. That's worst case scenario. Best

1:51:56

case scenario is you just have a

1:52:00

national scale promotion of health

1:52:03

and wellness and abandonment of

1:52:05

this body positivity nonsense and

1:52:08

fat doctors and people are telling you

1:52:10

that every weight is a healthy weight

1:52:12

and all food is food and to

1:52:14

think otherwise is discriminatory, which you're hearing

1:52:16

from people. And by the way,

1:52:18

that stuff is funded and that's

1:52:20

what people need to know. That nonsense

1:52:23

is actually funded. They pay people to

1:52:25

be influencers and they're getting paid by

1:52:27

these food companies to say these nonsense

1:52:29

things that are scientifically

1:52:32

factually incorrect. They're not true.

1:52:35

It is not healthy in any way, shape

1:52:38

or form to be obese. And

1:52:40

when they tell you that it's health, you

1:52:42

can be metabolically healthy and still have fat,

1:52:44

it's okay. It's not okay. It's

1:52:46

not okay. That's just not true. And is that

1:52:48

fat shaming? I don't know. You can

1:52:50

call it whatever the fuck you want, but it doesn't change what it does

1:52:52

to the human body. And it doesn't make

1:52:54

someone better if you don't

1:52:57

make them feel bad about being robustly

1:53:00

unhealthy. Well, it's an

1:53:02

enormous disservice to folks if we

1:53:06

don't expose an alternative

1:53:09

path. Okay, we're

1:53:11

spending this much money. We spend so much money

1:53:13

in all kinds of random stuff. Like, just a

1:53:15

simple example that we saw this past week. $50

1:53:18

billion spent between rural

1:53:22

broadband and chargers. We

1:53:24

have no rural broadband and we have

1:53:26

three chargers. No,

1:53:29

this is the data. That's

1:53:31

$50 billion. Okay,

1:53:34

that's not the $300 billion that... Explain that, what

1:53:36

you mean by that. In

1:53:42

Congress, when they come together to pass these

1:53:44

bills, sometimes what happens is there's a lot

1:53:46

of horse trading, right? And

1:53:48

you get what's called a Christmas tree bill, which

1:53:51

is like everybody gets to hang something off the

1:53:53

Christmas tree. And the

1:53:55

crazy part of the United States is these

1:53:57

little bubbles now here are $10 billion. The

1:58:00

cost of that would basically fall through the floor

1:58:02

if you put in an order for 50 million

1:58:04

of these units. Right. SpaceX

1:58:06

would make them for like eight bucks. Right.

1:58:08

You know what I mean? It's fast internet

1:58:10

too, which is even crazier. Yeah.

1:58:13

There's all of this stuff that

1:58:17

we should do. We just

1:58:19

need a few folks, I

1:58:23

don't know, that can either course correct or just can shine

1:58:25

a light on it. It's

1:58:27

like this thing where I'm so optimistic, married

1:58:31

to enormous fear and just like

1:58:33

a little... I

1:58:36

kind of go back and forth between these

1:58:38

things. Let me paint the ultimate dystopian solution.

1:58:42

The ultimate dystopian... Part of our problem

1:58:44

is we have corruption, we have what

1:58:47

you were talking about with deals, sort

1:58:49

of like the border wall deal had

1:58:51

money in it for Ukraine. There's all

1:58:54

these weird deals, those bills that don't

1:58:56

make any sense. How did you add

1:58:58

all this stuff? Why is this 2,000

1:59:00

pages? How many people signed

1:59:02

it actually read it? AI

1:59:04

government. AI government solves

1:59:06

all those problems. AI government

1:59:08

is not corrupt. AI government just

1:59:10

works literally for the people. Instead

1:59:13

of having all these state representatives and all these

1:59:15

bullshit artists that pretend to be working on their

1:59:17

truck and they don't know what the fuck they're

1:59:19

doing, they're just doing it for an ad, you

1:59:21

don't have any of that anymore. Now everything's governed

1:59:23

with AI. The problem is who's controlling the AI

1:59:26

and is there some sort of an

1:59:28

ultimate regulatory body that makes sure that

1:59:30

the AI is biased or tainted? I

1:59:33

think there's a step before that which is a lot more

1:59:36

palatable. I think the thing with... I

1:59:39

thought about your version and

1:59:41

the problem that you state is the key

1:59:43

problem which is how is this model trained?

1:59:46

Who got their hands on that

1:59:48

core stuff, the weights and the values of that?

1:59:51

Who decides? At

1:59:53

some point there's going to be... Or not

1:59:56

they're going... There is already today in AI models

1:59:58

a level of human override. It's

2:00:00

just a natural facet of how these things are.

2:00:02

There's a way to reinforce the learning

2:00:04

based on what you say and what I

2:00:06

say. It's a key part of how an

2:00:09

AI model becomes smart. It

2:00:11

starts off as primordial, and

2:00:13

then Joe and Chamath and all these other

2:00:15

people are clicking and saying, yes, that's a

2:00:17

good answer, bad answer, ask this question, all

2:00:20

this stuff. Who

2:00:22

are those people? Right, and it could be gamed

2:00:24

as well, right? Like you could organize. I think

2:00:26

at scale, we haven't figured out ... We

2:00:29

haven't seen it yet. But it will be when

2:00:31

the incentives are that high. And

2:00:33

we've seen distortions, like the Gemini

2:00:35

AI that were asked to make

2:00:38

Nazi soldiers, they made these multiracial

2:00:40

Nazi soldiers, and

2:00:42

that kind of stuff. Where it's just

2:00:44

like, who are the founding fathers? It's

2:00:46

all, here's a black guy, here's a

2:00:48

Chinese lady, like, okay, we get it,

2:00:50

you're not racist. But you're

2:00:52

being crazy. You're distorting

2:00:54

the past. Exactly. Specifically

2:00:57

history. One of them was like

2:00:59

a Native American woman was a Nazi soldier. It's like,

2:01:01

this is so nuts. So that

2:01:03

is a problem in that AI

2:01:05

is not clean, right? It's

2:01:08

got the greasy fingerprints of modern

2:01:10

civilization on it and all of

2:01:13

our bizarre ideologies. But there's

2:01:15

a step before it that I think can

2:01:17

create a much better government. So it's

2:01:19

possible today, for example, to understand

2:01:22

... Have you ever done a renovation on your house? Yes.

2:01:26

You make plans, you

2:01:29

go and your architect probably

2:01:31

pays an expediter to stand

2:01:33

in line in City Hall.

2:01:36

There's a person that goes and reviews that plan. They

2:01:39

give you a bunch of handwritten markups based

2:01:42

on their understanding of the building code. You

2:01:44

can't use this lead pipe, you need to use aluminum,

2:01:46

this window's too small, all this stuff. You

2:01:49

come back, you revise, you go do this two or

2:01:51

three times on average to do a renovation. And then

2:01:53

they issue your permits. Now

2:01:57

an AI can actually

2:01:59

just ingest all the ... rules, knows

2:02:01

exactly what's allowed and what's not allowed, and

2:02:04

they can take your picture and

2:02:07

instantly tell you, Joe, fix these 19 things. You

2:02:09

fix those things. You go to the city. You can

2:02:11

show that it maps to all the rules, so

2:02:14

you can streamline government. You can also point out

2:02:16

where they're making decisions that don't map to what

2:02:18

the rules say. That,

2:02:21

I think, is going to be a really important first

2:02:23

step because it allows us to

2:02:25

see where maybe

2:02:27

this administrative state has grown

2:02:29

unwieldy, where you got to

2:02:31

knock some of this stuff back and clean up some of

2:02:33

the cruft because there's rules on top of

2:02:35

rules and one conflicts with the other. I

2:02:38

bet you there are things on the books today that are

2:02:40

like that. A hundred percent. We have

2:02:42

no way of knowing. Right. You

2:02:45

know? But I do think an AI can tell you these

2:02:47

things and say, just pick which one. It's

2:02:49

A or it's B. I

2:02:51

think that that starts to cut

2:02:54

back a lot of the

2:02:56

data. Difficulty in just making progress.

2:02:58

Right. You know? One

2:03:01

of the things that I thought was

2:03:03

extraordinary that Elon was getting pushed back

2:03:05

on was his idea

2:03:07

of making the government more

2:03:09

efficient and that

2:03:12

auditing the various programs

2:03:14

and finding out how to make them more

2:03:16

efficient. A lot of people really freaked out

2:03:18

about that. Their main freak

2:03:20

out, the main argument from

2:03:22

intelligent people that I saw was, what are you going

2:03:24

to do? You're going to fire all these people that

2:03:27

are in charge of government. I

2:03:29

don't think that's the answer for ineffective

2:03:31

government is to let the same people

2:03:33

do the same thing because otherwise you

2:03:35

have to fire them. That sounds insane.

2:03:37

Right. And to say

2:03:40

that the government as efficient as

2:03:42

is humanly possible or even

2:03:44

close to it, no one believes that. No

2:03:47

rational person believes that. Everyone believes in

2:03:49

bureaucracy. Everyone believes there's a lot

2:03:51

of nonsense going on. Everyone believes that. Look

2:03:54

at the difference between what Elon's

2:03:57

been able to accomplish with SpaceX versus

2:04:00

is what NASA has been doing recently.

2:04:02

Look at the difference between what they're

2:04:04

able to accomplish with Starlink versus this

2:04:06

$42 billion program that yielded zero results.

2:04:09

Look at the difference between all these different

2:04:11

things that are done in the private sector

2:04:14

when there's competitive marketplace strategies. You

2:04:16

have to figure out a way

2:04:18

to get better and more

2:04:21

efficient and you can't afford to have a

2:04:23

bunch of people in your company that are

2:04:25

doing nothing and that are creating red tape

2:04:27

and making things harder to break. That's

2:04:31

bad for the business. That's

2:04:33

the argument for letting private companies take

2:04:36

over things. By the way, I think

2:04:38

that what, and just

2:04:40

to build on what you're saying, people

2:04:42

jump to this conclusion that like government

2:04:44

shouldn't exist. It's not some anarchic

2:04:47

thing where like government's actually very

2:04:50

important. They create

2:04:52

incentives and then those of

2:04:54

us in private industry go out and try

2:04:57

to meet those incentives or take advantage of

2:04:59

them. That's very normal. A

2:05:01

well-functioning government creates

2:05:03

very good incentives. An

2:05:05

incredible example of this is in the

2:05:08

1950s, do

2:05:11

you know what the GDP of Singapore

2:05:13

was? No. It

2:05:15

was the same as the GDP

2:05:17

of Jamaica. You fast forward

2:05:19

70 years and you understand what

2:05:22

good governance looks like. We actually

2:05:24

were talking about Singapore yesterday,

2:05:26

how extraordinarily efficient their recycling

2:05:29

program is. It's unbelievable.

2:05:31

I mean, it's really amazing

2:05:33

what they do. They

2:05:35

really recycle. They recycle how we think

2:05:38

we're recycling. They really do. They really

2:05:40

separate the plastic. They break it up.

2:05:42

They use it to make power. They

2:05:44

use it to make road materials. They

2:05:46

make building materials out of it. They

2:05:48

reuse everything. They were thrust

2:05:50

into a spit of land with

2:05:52

no natural resources. They

2:05:54

had to become incredibly well-educated

2:05:57

and industrious. You

2:06:00

know, Lee Kuan Yew was able

2:06:02

to create the right incentives for

2:06:05

government to do a good job. They pay their

2:06:07

civil servants incredibly well, but

2:06:09

then also for private industry to show up and do

2:06:11

the rest. And it works incredibly.

2:06:14

You can do that in the United States.

2:06:16

The thing that we would benefit a lot

2:06:18

from is if we

2:06:20

could just point out all the

2:06:23

ways in which there's either too many laws

2:06:25

or laws are conflicting, you

2:06:28

can at least have a conversation about batting those back. And

2:06:31

the second is if

2:06:33

you look inside of private

2:06:36

equity, there is one

2:06:38

thing that they do, which I think

2:06:40

the government would hugely benefit from, and

2:06:42

it's called zero-based budgeting. And

2:06:45

this is an incredibly powerful but boring

2:06:47

idea. What private

2:06:49

equity does when they buy a company, some

2:06:52

of them, the best ones, they'll

2:06:54

look at next year's budget. And

2:06:56

if they say, what should the budget be? Well,

2:06:59

guess what's going to happen, Joe, in your company? Everybody runs

2:07:01

and says, I need X for this, Y

2:07:03

for that, Z for this. And

2:07:05

you have this budget that's just ginormous. Instead,

2:07:08

what some of the best private equity

2:07:10

folks do is say, we're starting with

2:07:12

zero. Next

2:07:14

year's budget is zero. We're spending nothing.

2:07:16

Now, let's build it

2:07:19

back up meticulously, block by block.

2:07:22

So somebody comes in, okay, what is it exactly that you

2:07:24

want to do? I

2:07:26

want to build an interface that

2:07:28

allows it, eh, they start saying

2:07:31

something, like, no.

2:07:33

Okay, what do you want to do? I want to

2:07:35

upgrade the factory so that we can make a more

2:07:37

high yield. Okay, done, you're in. How much do you

2:07:39

need? Okay. One by

2:07:41

one by one. And if

2:07:43

you go and you do that inside the government,

2:07:46

what you probably would find is that same group

2:07:48

of people would probably enjoy their job a lot

2:07:50

more. Their

2:07:52

hands would be on the controls in

2:07:54

a much more directed way. We'd

2:07:57

spend a lot less because a lot of this stuff

2:07:59

probably just goes by the wayside and we don't even

2:08:01

know, you know, and

2:08:04

people would just be more able to go

2:08:06

and work. You could do what you

2:08:08

wanted to do. I could do what I

2:08:10

wanted to do. Elon could do what he wants to do.

2:08:13

There was a thing, I tweeted it out today. He

2:08:20

cannot get the

2:08:22

FAA to give him a flight

2:08:26

permit for Starship 5 and 6. So

2:08:29

they're waiting on dry docks, right?

2:08:31

They're slow rolling the approval, right?

2:08:36

It takes him less time to build

2:08:38

these Starships now than it does to get government

2:08:40

approval. That's what he said. Meanwhile,

2:08:43

the FCC, which is a sister

2:08:46

organization to the FAA, fast

2:08:48

tracked the sale of 220 radio stations

2:08:51

in part to some

2:08:53

folks that were foreign entities right

2:08:56

before an election that touched like 160 million Americans.

2:09:01

When you look at that, you would

2:09:03

say, how can some folks cut

2:09:06

through all the red tape and get an answer quickly? How

2:09:09

can other folks be waiting around

2:09:12

for something that just seems so obvious and

2:09:15

so exceptional for America? And

2:09:19

there's no good answer. I

2:09:22

don't know what the answer is. I

2:09:25

don't think any of us know. No. And then there's just

2:09:27

folks that are stuck in space. Meanwhile,

2:09:30

there's these two people stuck in

2:09:33

space. Yeah. And...

2:09:35

And Jamie said they were supposed to be there for how

2:09:37

long? Eight hours? Uh, yeah. They

2:09:40

were supposed to be there for eight hours. They're supposed to be

2:09:42

quick. They're supposed to be quick. And they've been

2:09:44

there for months. They're going to be there until February. That's

2:09:47

so insane. They're going

2:09:49

to be there until February. How terrifying must that

2:09:51

be? I mean, for

2:09:53

maybe you and me? Eight days. Eight

2:09:56

days. Think

2:10:00

I think I would freak out 100%

2:10:03

I think they would do how do you not well

2:10:05

I read this article where they interviewed them now This

2:10:07

could be the party line. I don't know, but they're

2:10:10

like this is great. It's my natural place. Oh Lord

2:10:13

I Can't believe that

2:10:15

I had a friend of mine. That's what they say them

2:10:17

to themselves keep from going crazy Well, yeah a friend of

2:10:19

mine went to space the

2:10:21

founder of Cirque du Soleil gee la liberté and He

2:10:25

brought a super high Google

2:10:27

about like it's already over Still

2:10:30

going no, it's still going on says

2:10:32

it until February 21st. Yeah, February 20th.

2:10:35

Yeah, we're stuck in space This is

2:10:37

like it ended up spending That's

2:10:39

just more AI Wow,

2:10:42

yeah, it could be way more It

2:10:45

could be way way more. That's weird that

2:10:47

AI that's another flaw with AI right that

2:10:49

they would Read it like

2:10:51

that. What are what the incentive is for AI a lot

2:10:53

of you about that? How does

2:10:56

AI not know it's not 2025 yet? No,

2:10:59

we're stuck in space until February of

2:11:02

2025. Well, that's that's just a straight-up

2:11:04

error. That's a weird error though

2:11:06

It is a weird. Yeah but these

2:11:09

poor people you know and But

2:11:11

so my friend that was up there said It

2:11:15

was incredible. He has this funny story where he

2:11:17

was a smoker still is a smoker, but

2:11:21

This was like 20 years ago. So he was going

2:11:23

up on like a Soyuz rocket and he

2:11:26

shows up I guess in Siberia's

2:11:28

where they do the launches and He

2:11:32

was really stressed out because he had to stop smoking They're

2:11:40

like oh it's totally fine door they smoke in no,

2:11:42

no, no I'm saying on the ground while they were

2:11:44

trading Oh boy, so they go up. He does eight

2:11:46

days. He comes back down He

2:11:49

took these incredible high-res pictures of like all the parts

2:11:51

of the earth He said it was the most incredible

2:11:53

thing, but you know when you get back He's like

2:11:55

I was ready to get back. Did

2:11:57

you see this latest report? There's

2:12:00

a like real controversy about some

2:12:02

finding that the James Webb telescope

2:12:04

has discovered. And there's

2:12:06

some talk of some large object

2:12:09

moving towards us that's course

2:12:11

correcting. This is

2:12:13

the weird part about it. And

2:12:16

there's all these meetings, and so all

2:12:18

the kooky UAP people are

2:12:20

all over it saying disclosure is imminent. There's

2:12:23

a mothership headed towards us. So

2:12:27

it gets fun. I don't know what they mean

2:12:29

by course correcting. What does that mean? And how

2:12:31

do they know it wasn't impacted with something else

2:12:33

that diverted it? It could have

2:12:35

been that. It could have just been the gravitational fields.

2:12:37

It could have been orbital path. But

2:12:40

they're not telling anybody. There's something

2:12:42

going on. Do you

2:12:44

think they would tell people, imagine

2:12:46

if there was a giant chunk of

2:12:49

steel, of iron rather, that's headed

2:12:51

towards us. That's a great question. I think

2:12:53

the question is, what would we do if

2:12:56

we knew? Do we have the capability of

2:12:58

moving that thing? Would

2:13:01

the FCC wait five months to give

2:13:03

Elon to- I think you'd probably send

2:13:05

as many, but see, it's

2:13:08

all a physics problem at that point. It's

2:13:10

also a problem of breaking it up. If

2:13:13

it breaks up, then you have smaller pieces

2:13:15

that are hitting everywhere instead of one large

2:13:17

chunk. Isn't this like the

2:13:20

perfect reason why being multi-planetary just makes

2:13:22

a lot of sense? Sure.

2:13:25

For example, would you get on an airplane if

2:13:27

they said, hey Joe, this is the best airplane

2:13:30

in the world. It's the most incredible, it's the

2:13:32

most luxurious, it has the best weather,

2:13:34

you can surf, but there's only one

2:13:36

navigation system. And if it goes out, you'd

2:13:40

never do that. Would you ever

2:13:43

get on that airplane? No. No. I

2:13:46

think we owe it to ourselves to

2:13:48

have some redundancy. Yeah, but ultimately

2:13:50

I always wonder, the

2:13:53

universe sort of has these patterns

2:13:55

that force innovation and

2:13:58

constantly move towards further. further

2:14:00

complexity. If you

2:14:02

were going to have intelligent life that

2:14:04

existed on a planet, what better incentive

2:14:07

to get this intelligent life to spread

2:14:09

to other parts of the planet than

2:14:11

to make that planet volatile? Make

2:14:14

super volcanoes, earthquakes, solar

2:14:17

flares, all sorts of

2:14:19

different possibilities, asteroid impacts, all sorts of

2:14:21

different possibilities that motivate this thing to

2:14:23

spread. Don't have to say like this

2:14:26

is fragile and it's not

2:14:28

forever, so create some

2:14:30

redundancy. I mean, I was

2:14:33

raised Buddhist. I'm not that religious in

2:14:36

that way, but I'm kind of weirdly

2:14:38

spiritual in this other way, which is I

2:14:41

do think the universe is basically, it's

2:14:44

littered with answers. You

2:14:47

just got to go and find out what the right questions

2:14:49

are. So to your point,

2:14:52

are all these natural phenomena on Earth?

2:14:56

The question is, okay, if

2:14:58

that's the answer, well, the question is like, do

2:15:01

we want to be a single planet species

2:15:03

or do we want to have some built-in

2:15:05

redundancy? And maybe

2:15:08

100 years from now that builds

2:15:10

on top of what happens in the next

2:15:12

five, we'll have discovered all kinds

2:15:14

of different planets. That's

2:15:16

an amazing thing. Unquestionably.

2:15:19

Unquestionably. We also

2:15:21

know that there's planets in our immediate

2:15:23

vicinity that used to be able to

2:15:25

harbor life like Mars. We know

2:15:27

that Mars was covered in water and Mars

2:15:29

had a sustainable atmosphere. So

2:15:32

we know that this is not just a

2:15:34

dream, that this is possible that what we're

2:15:36

experiencing here on Earth is temporary. And

2:15:39

if we get hit by something, but what we

2:15:41

know Earth was hit by a planet in

2:15:43

its formation. There was Earth one and Earth

2:15:45

two, the formation of the moon, the primary

2:15:47

theories that we were hit by another planet

2:15:49

and that's why we have such a large

2:15:51

moon. That's a quarter the

2:15:53

size of Earth. It's like keeping

2:15:56

our atmosphere stable and keeping our...

2:16:00

wild shooting gallery out there. I mean

2:16:02

it really is and especially our Our

2:16:06

particular solar system has a massive asteroid

2:16:08

belt. There's like 900,000 near-Earth objects but

2:16:12

isn't that so like inspiring like this idea

2:16:14

of like Discovering

2:16:16

all these other questions that we

2:16:19

don't know yet to even ask

2:16:21

right that is a life well-lived

2:16:24

Yes, you know that's the

2:16:26

the most promising aspect to

2:16:28

a hyper intelligent AI in

2:16:30

my in my opinion That

2:16:33

it'll be able to solve problems that

2:16:35

are inescapable to us and also Offer

2:16:38

us like real hard data

2:16:41

about how big of a problem

2:16:43

this is and when this needs to be solved by

2:16:45

and then Come up with

2:16:47

actionable solutions. Yeah, and that that seems

2:16:49

to be something that Might

2:16:52

escape us as biological entities with

2:16:55

limited minds Especially we're not working

2:16:57

together and you could get AI

2:16:59

to have the accumulated power mind

2:17:01

power of everyone You

2:17:04

know 10x the the

2:17:06

mental model is if an alien

2:17:08

showed up today Would

2:17:10

humans by and large drop all of their?

2:17:14

Internal issues and cooperate together

2:17:20

Perhaps perhaps I

2:17:22

would I would hope that the answer would be yes It

2:17:24

would have to be something that showed such overwhelming

2:17:27

Superiority that it shut down all of

2:17:29

our military systems and did so openly

2:17:31

to the point where we're like We're

2:17:34

really helpless against this thing. Well, so

2:17:36

I think that one way to think

2:17:38

about AI is that it is a

2:17:41

supernatural system in

2:17:44

some ways so If

2:17:47

we can just find a way to cooperate and

2:17:49

harness this and see the bigger picture. I Think

2:17:53

we'll all be better off like again

2:17:55

like killing each

2:17:57

other It's

2:18:00

just so barbarically unnecessary.

2:18:04

It doesn't solve anything. All it does

2:18:06

is just makes more anger. It

2:18:09

creates more hatred because what's

2:18:12

left over is not positive. And

2:18:16

I think that we need to

2:18:18

be reminded of that somehow without

2:18:21

actually living the experience. Yes.

2:18:24

My hope is that one

2:18:26

of the things that comes out of AI

2:18:28

and the advancement of society through this is

2:18:31

the allocation of resources much more

2:18:33

evenly. And that we use

2:18:35

AI, as I was saying

2:18:37

before, the best way to keep people from entering

2:18:39

into this country is to make all the other

2:18:41

places as good as this country. As good as

2:18:44

this country. Then you

2:18:46

solve all the problems for everybody. And you don't

2:18:48

have this one place where you can go to

2:18:50

get a job or you go over there and

2:18:52

you get murdered. Well, so I

2:18:54

think that why are a lot of people coming

2:18:57

to America? A

2:19:00

lot of the reasons, some are clearly

2:19:02

political persecution, but a lot of the

2:19:04

other reasons are economic to your point. And

2:19:06

so if you can create economic abundance

2:19:11

generally in the world, that's

2:19:13

I think what people want. Most people want,

2:19:15

as you said before, a good job.

2:19:17

They want to come in and feel like they can point

2:19:20

to something and say, I made that. I don't feel proud

2:19:22

of that. They want

2:19:24

to hopefully get married, have some kids, have

2:19:26

fun with them, teach them what they were

2:19:28

all about. And

2:19:30

then our swan song and we all

2:19:32

kind of, I don't know, get reborn

2:19:34

or not. Isn't it interesting that the

2:19:36

idea of people not getting together in

2:19:38

groups and killing people they don't know,

2:19:40

that's utopia. That

2:19:43

is some sort of ridiculous

2:19:47

pie in the sky vision of the

2:19:49

possibility of the future of humanity. That's

2:19:53

common in small groups,

2:19:56

like even in cities. There's

2:19:58

individual murders. And there's crimes

2:20:00

in cities, but cities aren't

2:20:02

attacking other cities and killing

2:20:04

everybody. So there's

2:20:06

something bizarre about nations, and

2:20:09

there's something bizarre about the

2:20:11

uneven application of

2:20:13

resources and possibilities and,

2:20:17

you know, your economic hopes,

2:20:19

your dreams, your

2:20:23

aspirations being achievable pretty

2:20:26

much everywhere. If

2:20:28

we did that, I think that might

2:20:30

be the way that we solve most

2:20:33

violence, or the most horrific nonsensical violence.

2:20:35

So, and you have this data point.

2:20:37

I said this before, but the most

2:20:40

important thing that has happened is

2:20:43

that in the last four or five

2:20:45

years is we have severely curtailed the

2:20:48

likelihood of war in

2:20:51

the nominal sense. I think Trump

2:20:53

was able to basically draw a hard red line

2:20:55

in the sand on that stuff. And

2:20:59

the underlying reason was because we had enough

2:21:01

economic abundance where the incentives to go to

2:21:03

war fell. We

2:21:06

had just a complete rebirth of

2:21:08

domestic hydrocarbons in America. Whether you agree

2:21:10

with it or not, my point is

2:21:13

it is quite clearly correlated

2:21:15

in the data. As

2:21:17

we were able to produce more stuff,

2:21:19

so economic abundance, we

2:21:22

had less need to go and fight with external parties.

2:21:25

So I do think you're right. Like

2:21:27

this reduces it down to we

2:21:29

need to find ways of

2:21:32

allocating this abundance more

2:21:34

broadly, to more countries. Meanwhile,

2:21:38

that one crazy thing that you can't

2:21:40

unwind and go back from, you can

2:21:42

just never go there. And

2:21:45

you just have to make sure nobody believes

2:21:47

that that is justified. Because

2:21:50

in a nuclear event, I think that

2:21:52

that's not what happens. Clearly.

2:21:55

I saw this brilliant discussion that

2:21:57

you had where you were explaining.

2:22:00