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2:30

Hey, doing

2:42

tonight, Aaron? I'm doing good, Justin. How

2:44

are you? I'm doing wonderful.

2:46

We got any announcements? If

2:49

you're listening to us and you appreciate

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3:07

patreon.com/generation y, and you'll find all

3:09

kinds of extra content and hear

3:11

off the cuff conversations between Aaron

3:13

and I. Lots of stuff to

3:15

check out. Tonight's

3:17

case is one that's had

3:19

some movement in the past 10 years.

3:23

It's been going on

3:25

since 1984. It's traumatized

3:27

a family. They've lost a daughter.

3:29

With that, what are we

3:31

talking about tonight? Tonight, we're talking about

3:34

the November 30th, 1984 murder of 13-year-old Candice Dirksen

3:40

in Winnipeg, Canada. Candice

3:42

Wenderksen was born on

3:44

July 6th, 1971. She

3:47

lived with her family in

3:49

Elmwood. It's a neighborhood in

3:51

the Winnipeg, Manitoba province. Her

3:54

parents are Wilma and Cliff Dirksen.

3:57

She had two young siblings, a

3:59

younger sister, weeks.

12:01

They're trying to just make it clear

12:03

that there was nothing going on at

12:05

the homestead. There wasn't any abuse, there

12:08

wasn't any terrible fights going on, and

12:10

they have nothing to hide. So

12:12

let's just focus on finding our

12:15

daughter. Now on January

12:17

17th, 1985, an employee of Elsip,

12:19

Rick, Tyle, and Lumber on Cole

12:21

Avenue made a terrible discovery at

12:23

9.30 in the morning. He

12:27

found a young woman who appeared to

12:29

be Candace Dirksen in a

12:31

rundown unused shed located in

12:33

the company's building materials yard.

12:36

Now the employee found her while he was

12:38

searching for a saw, and that's

12:40

when, while looking around, he peeked in

12:42

the door and saw the body. Of

12:45

course, he thought that it was a doll

12:48

or a mannequin, something to that effect.

12:50

And he says that he did not

12:53

touch the body. He didn't enter the

12:55

shed. He just kind of peeked in

12:57

and saw it immediately called law enforcement.

13:00

Candace was in this shed, which

13:03

was about 500 meters

13:05

from her home. She was

13:07

on the floor. Her clothing was on, but

13:09

she was missing a shoe. She

13:11

was covered by a parka. Her hands were

13:14

bound with twine behind her back, and she

13:16

was tied at her ankles. A

13:18

police officer who showed up to

13:20

the scene said that Candace was

13:22

frozen stiff. The day

13:25

after Candace was abducted, we know now

13:27

it's an abduction, the temperature had fallen

13:29

to negative 25 Celsius. This

13:33

shed had not been used for years,

13:35

and employees just hadn't been using it,

13:37

especially since Candace had disappeared. So it

13:39

was completely overlooked when employees were searching

13:41

the grounds because they just weren't in

13:43

the habit of even looking there. It

13:46

was one of dozens of buildings in the area.

13:49

Now at the time, police would

13:51

not confirm reports that Candace was

13:53

bound and died of exposure.

13:57

They did say they were treating the case as

13:59

a homicide. but they had no firm

14:01

leads. Obviously, if she's

14:04

found in the shed that belongs to

14:06

this business, I would think

14:08

going through and interrogating every single employee at

14:10

that business would be a good start, a

14:12

good lead, but they're saying they have no

14:15

leads yet. Crime

14:17

Superintendent, Day DePorque, alluded to the

14:19

December 5th son story where the

14:21

witness claimed she saw Candace being

14:24

abducted. He said, it didn't happen

14:26

exactly as reported, but he also

14:28

didn't give details as to why

14:30

he would say that. So

14:32

again, as far as the public's concerned,

14:34

or at least many in the public, it

14:37

feels like the police aren't really being truthful

14:39

here. ACIUS Yeah, they're

14:41

being kind of weirdly coy and

14:44

just vague here. And I

14:46

understand some of that is because they

14:48

don't want to give too many details

14:50

out and spook the perpetrator or

14:53

even have people think that somebody

14:55

is the perpetrator and go after

14:57

them. But I think a little

14:59

bit more transparency, at least with

15:01

the family members, would have been

15:03

nice. ACIUS Well,

15:06

what I'm finding strange is a

15:08

lot of their comments seem to

15:10

be more about managing PR, damage

15:13

control, than to actually give information or

15:15

even the standard answers. They're basically trying

15:17

to cover their butts is what it

15:19

sounds like. And we don't really know

15:21

if that's the case or not, but

15:23

that's the perception here. Two

15:26

days after Candice was found, her parents

15:29

issued a statement. Cliff, speaking

15:31

directly to the killer, said, we would like

15:33

to know who the person or persons are

15:35

so we could share, hopefully, a love that

15:37

seems to be missing in these people's lives.

15:40

I don't believe the person who did this had

15:42

loving parents or a circle of friends who thought

15:44

the world of him or he wouldn't have done

15:47

a deed like this. It's

15:49

a powerful statement. The

15:51

family and search committee would go on

15:53

to establish the Candice Dirksen Memorial Fund,

15:56

which would be used to build a

15:58

swimming pool at a... camp

16:00

where Candace attended in the summer. They

16:03

also wanted to start a child-find

16:05

branch in Winnipeg because

16:07

they've been through it and they think

16:09

that there could be some holes to

16:11

fill here and they want to help

16:13

others. Wilma mentioned Candace

16:15

was found in an area that had

16:17

already been searched and they were extremely

16:20

disappointed that she wasn't found during that

16:22

first search, but they didn't feel any

16:26

antagonism. They didn't feel mad at the

16:28

police because, as you know, Erin, searches

16:30

are not perfect. You do your best,

16:33

but if she was hidden in

16:35

a shed on private property, she

16:38

could be missed. Yeah, another thing

16:40

to keep in mind when people are searching, we

16:42

can make mistakes and there are many times, just

16:45

think about if you've lost the salt shaker at

16:47

your house, right? You're not sure where it is.

16:49

It's not where it normally is. So you start

16:51

looking around, you might tell yourself there are certain

16:54

places it won't be and sometimes

16:56

that's where it ends up because you've

16:58

already written some places off so you don't

17:00

actually check there and I think that's why

17:02

they missed this shed because normally

17:04

it was locked. Some time ago the lock

17:06

had been broken by vandals, but you know,

17:09

these are usually locked and secured, so why

17:11

would there be someone in there? There

17:14

was an autopsy performed on January

17:16

20th and a day later, crime

17:19

superintendent DePorque revealed that the autopsy

17:21

failed to establish a cause of

17:24

death. Now it's believed, of

17:26

course, that she died of exposure, that she was

17:28

tied up and died in the cold, but

17:30

DePorque said, we're starting with nothing and the

17:33

person who did it is far ahead. So

17:36

they're admitting that this investigation is going to

17:38

be a difficult one. Now,

17:40

of course, many people are asking what

17:42

happened to Candice? Anything else happened aside

17:44

from her being tied up and DePorque

17:47

refused to talk about this. He wouldn't

17:49

answer questions about sexual assault, but he

17:51

did confirm that Candice was indeed bound.

17:54

So the next step is toxicology testing.

17:57

Now, Dr. Peter Markstein, who conducted

17:59

the autopsy, He said

18:01

that if those tests, the toxicology tests

18:03

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18:05

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Walmart, and even the other stores. He

36:00

said he may not have worn gloves

36:03

while handling the materials. He did not

36:05

wear a hairnet and could not say

36:07

if his exam tables had traces of

36:09

DNA on them. So

36:12

this is kind of showing

36:14

that Donald possibly tainted evidence

36:17

and it wasn't DNA tested. He

36:19

was just looking at hair fibers,

36:21

which we know that that can

36:24

be misinterpreted. A

36:26

retired Detective Sergeant, Meno Zacharias, testified

36:28

that he didn't consider Mark Grant

36:31

a suspect. When he interviewed him

36:33

in 1984, he said he spoke

36:35

with Grant on December 10th after

36:37

Grant was arrested for being unlawfully

36:40

at large. He noted that

36:42

Grant was very cooperative. At

36:44

the time though, this Detective Sergeant

36:46

was investigating a claim made by

36:49

Grant's then-girlfriend that she saw Candace

36:51

after she disappeared but the woman

36:53

later recanted her statement. Grant's

36:56

girlfriend in 1984 was Audrey Fontaine. She

37:00

was 14 years old. At trial,

37:02

Audrey testified that she saw Candace coming

37:04

out of a store on Talbot Avenue

37:06

shortly before she went missing. And I

37:08

don't know about you, Justin, but I

37:10

find it strange that a 21-year-old is

37:12

dating a 14-year-old. I

37:14

do too. Detective

37:17

Zacharias did not take a formal

37:19

statement because Grant wasn't an official

37:21

suspect. He read his interview notes

37:23

in court. The note said that

37:25

Grant has not seen Candace. Didn't know

37:28

Audrey knew her. The police

37:30

questioned Grant about girls' clothing found in

37:32

a concrete dugout in the CPR railroads.

37:34

This place was used as a hideout

37:36

by Grant after he escaped. He said

37:39

that he and Audrey slept there. I

37:41

love you, Mark. Was written on one of the

37:44

walls. Yeah, this

37:46

is not looking good for Grant here.

37:49

I think there's a lot of things

37:51

tying him back to this. And his

37:53

behaviors, even though they're not exactly being

37:55

put out in front of this jury,

37:57

they are interviewing his 14-year-old. girlfriend

38:00

at the time, which again,

38:03

shows what kind of person he is. They

38:07

also go on in court about when

38:09

there was testing done on clothing. In

38:11

2007, Sergeant Brian Truppolo

38:13

of the Cole Case Unit asked

38:15

an officer from the Identification Division to

38:18

take a blood sample from a pair

38:20

of genes belonging to Grant. These samples

38:22

were sent to Molecular World, Inc., which

38:25

is the first accredited lab in Canada

38:27

to do mitochondrial DNA testing, DNA which

38:29

is passed down from the mother. Now,

38:33

the defense only called one witness. This

38:36

was genetics professor John Way, who

38:38

testified that the DNA analysis in

38:40

the case was bad science. He

38:43

testified that the Thunder Bay lab

38:45

excluded data that might have led

38:47

to false conclusions. Way

38:49

had worked with the RCMP and

38:51

testified in high-profile criminal cases, in

38:53

closing arguments, defense attorney Saul Simmons

38:55

called the DNA evidence bad science.

38:57

So what the jury is hearing

38:59

is, yeah, the prosecution is laying

39:01

out all this science for you,

39:04

but it's faulty. So why

39:06

is it faulty? Think about what

39:08

we talked about. The DNA tester

39:10

himself could not say with certainty

39:13

that the table that he worked

39:15

at was even clean. It could

39:17

have been contaminated, which would

39:19

taint any kind of samples he's using.

39:22

Yeah, we don't know what kind of

39:24

results you'd get from that. I would

39:26

hope that they would be inconclusive and

39:28

not point to somebody if his table

39:30

had been tainted, but we don't know.

39:34

The prosecutor, Brian Bell, reminded the jury

39:37

of Grant and his girlfriend Audrey. They

39:39

frequented a home on Talibon Avenue attached

39:41

to a store, and that's where Audrey

39:43

claimed to have seen Candice because she

39:46

said she was walking out of the

39:48

store. Bell emphasized that

39:50

Molecular World meets or exceeds

39:52

guidelines for DNA testing and

39:54

could not exclude Grant from

39:56

multiple samples. This

39:59

DNA apparently shows a one in

40:01

50 million probability that it could

40:03

belong to somebody else. Sounds

40:05

like it was Grant, right? There was

40:07

no evidence that the lab was skewing data. Expert

40:10

witness John Way also admitted that Grant

40:12

could not be excluded. So the jury

40:15

was weighing all this out between is

40:17

this bad science or do you trust

40:19

the lab? Because the lab is

40:21

saying it could well be this guy.

40:23

And if you look at what this guy had

40:25

been up to, where he was at the time,

40:27

I mean, what do you say, right? Yeah,

40:30

could not be excluded as opposed

40:32

to this is most definitely him.

40:35

It's the wording of DNA testing and

40:38

profiles that they're arguing over here. February

40:41

18th, 2011, after deliberating for three

40:44

days, the jury found Mark Grant

40:46

guilty of second degree murder. Now,

40:49

apparently this is something reported by

40:52

the Winnipeg Free Press. Mark

40:54

Grant allegedly confessed to the murder in

40:56

1988, but

40:59

retracted his statement. Jurors

41:01

never heard about this admission because

41:03

the crown didn't call on the

41:05

witness and her credibility was questioned.

41:08

But this witness, Tanya Lachance, testified

41:10

at the preliminary hearing in 2009.

41:13

She said, at the time when

41:15

Candace was killed, she was 13 years

41:17

old, just like Candace, and had gone

41:19

to elementary school with her. Years later,

41:21

she befriended Audrey Fontaine, which is the

41:23

young girl that Grant was seeing. In

41:26

1988, Tanya attended a house party

41:29

where Grant was present, and she

41:31

said they discussed Candace's death. According

41:34

to Tanya, Mark just came out and

41:36

said, "'I killed her.'" And

41:38

then a couple of minutes later, he recanted it.

41:40

He said, "'I didn't do it. I'm just kidding.

41:42

I'm just kidding.'" But she said, "'They

41:44

all just sat there not knowing what to

41:46

say.'" Grant and his girlfriend

41:48

later showed up at her house and they threatened

41:50

her if I opened my mouth that they would

41:52

do to me what they did to Candace. But

41:55

Tanya's father came to the door and

41:57

told Grant and Audrey to leave or he'd

41:59

call the police. Now, according to Tanya, she

42:02

never saw Grant again, but Audrey later moved

42:04

in next door, and so

42:06

she stayed silent until the police contacted

42:08

her in 2008. Just

42:11

a little more background information on what

42:13

was being said. Now,

42:16

it's May 26, 2011. Mark

42:19

Grant was sentenced to a minimum term of

42:21

25 years. The

42:24

judge told him that he showed unspeakable

42:26

cruelty when he left Candace to die

42:28

in that shed. Grant's

42:31

defense attorney told the court that Grant

42:33

was physically and sexually abused growing up

42:36

and that he was a law-abiding

42:38

citizen in the 18 months before

42:40

he was arrested, but the judge

42:42

could not ignore his violent criminal

42:44

record. The Crown attorney

42:47

Brian Bell quoted reports that

42:49

describe Grant as a violent

42:51

offender committed to ensuring his

42:53

own gratification. The Crown

42:56

pointed out that Grant was

42:58

diagnosed with schizophrenia and often

43:00

refused to take his medications

43:02

because it interferes with his

43:04

sexual functioning, according to one

43:06

report. Another report said

43:09

Grant felt an entrenched anger against

43:11

people, women in particular. The report

43:13

quoted him as saying, women are

43:15

all the same, they deserve to

43:17

be treated like dirt. So,

43:20

multiple reports and quotes here

43:22

that are not good for

43:24

Grant. Grant filed

43:26

an appeal in June of 2011. This

43:29

appeal cited 18 errors made

43:31

by the judge. The defense

43:33

argued that the police ignored evidence

43:36

pointing away from Grant and contaminated

43:38

the crime scene by mishandling key

43:40

pieces of evidence such as the

43:42

twine. This appeal was heard on April

43:45

16 and 17 of 2013. It

43:48

was October of that year when the Manitoba Court

43:50

of Appeal ordered a new trial from

43:53

our Grant. The court found

43:55

that the trial judge erred in denying

43:57

Grant's lawyer the right to present evidence

43:59

that Candice might

56:00

not have happened. Sergeant

56:03

L. Bradbury was assigned to review Candace's case

56:05

in 2004. He

56:07

said he found no connection between her murder

56:09

and the abduction of the 12-year-old. Frederick

56:13

Beaver, a professor, FBI advisor, and

56:15

medical geneticist testified that he had

56:17

no confidence in the results of

56:20

the DNA testing. He said this

56:22

was among the most egregious departures

56:24

from proper lab practices he had

56:26

ever seen. So

56:29

this obviously is going to allow

56:31

the defense to file motion to

56:33

stay the case because DNA evidence

56:35

was horribly flawed and could not

56:38

be independently verified because it no

56:40

longer existed. As you

56:42

test this evidence and DNA, you're

56:45

using it up. You're consuming it.

56:48

So it's March 24th of 2017. A

56:52

judge decided to allow the DNA

56:54

evidence to be presented at trial

56:56

and dismissed the defense's application for

56:58

a stay. But during

57:00

final arguments, the defense told the

57:03

judge that the DNA evidence was

57:05

flawed and corrupt. The DNA samples

57:07

were so tiny that they were

57:09

infinitesimal and could come from

57:11

dozens of people who entered the shed.

57:14

So this whole entire crime scene is

57:16

tainted. The prosecutor acknowledged

57:18

that some of the DNA evidence might

57:20

not be reliable and said the judge

57:23

should not give that evidence any weight.

57:25

However, other DNA tests showed that 99.9%

57:27

of the population would

57:31

have been excluded but not Mark

57:33

Grant. The prosecution argued

57:35

that Grant had the opportunity and means

57:37

to kill Candace. The prosecution

57:39

also addressed testimony from Tanya

57:42

that claimed Grant had said,

57:44

I killed her. This is

57:46

from that party. Grant

57:48

had joked, I killed her and then threatened

57:51

her later. Now it's

57:53

on October 18th of 2017 that

57:57

Justice Karen Simonson found

1:00:00

say that he did not do this. It just

1:00:02

says, as things stand, you

1:00:04

can't say he did it and then put

1:00:06

him in prison. That's not how this works.

1:00:08

AC And it's terrible because

1:00:11

Wilma and Cliff have been waiting 33

1:00:13

years and going through this process

1:00:16

and they don't even want the crown

1:00:18

to retry him or

1:00:21

appeal because they're done. They're

1:00:23

emotionally exhausted. They believe Grant did

1:00:26

this and that the right person

1:00:28

was convicted and that's

1:00:30

it. And they don't want to go through it again. AC

1:00:34

In 2019, Grant filed a lawsuit that

1:00:36

included the government of Manitoba as a

1:00:38

defendant. He sought $8.5 million

1:00:41

in damages and alleged negligent

1:00:43

investigation, malicious prosecution, breach of

1:00:45

his charter rights, and wrongful

1:00:48

conviction. A judge ruled

1:00:50

against the province in 2023 and

1:00:53

Manitoba appealed. In

1:00:55

November of 2018, Candice House, a

1:00:57

place for victims of crimes of

1:00:59

their families, opened near the Manitoba

1:01:01

Provincial Law Courts. This space gives

1:01:04

families a place for a break

1:01:06

or a debrief during trials. Unfortunately,

1:01:09

Cliff Dirksen died May 22nd,

1:01:13

2022. He had been diagnosed with terminal

1:01:15

gallbladder cancer in February of that

1:01:17

year. So you

1:01:19

can understand this is a case that

1:01:22

continues to haunt Canada, in particular,

1:01:24

Winnipeg. It feels like a lot

1:01:26

of people believe Mark Grant is

1:01:28

responsible for what happened to Candice Dirksen,

1:01:30

but we just don't have the proof

1:01:32

and there's no way to lock

1:01:35

him up for this. So very

1:01:37

dissatisfying, but somehow the family has

1:01:39

found a way to continue. They've

1:01:41

found ways to help others and

1:01:44

I encourage everyone who's interested in this

1:01:46

case to look up videos on it

1:01:48

because Candice's parents had spoken quite a

1:01:50

number of times over the years. So

1:01:53

there's quite a lot of video to

1:01:55

go through to learn more

1:01:57

about them and their feelings this time went

1:01:59

on. because it did seem like they were

1:02:01

quite open throughout the process. And

1:02:04

I think there comes a point where you kind

1:02:06

of have to stop fighting. Are

1:02:08

you going to sacrifice yourself for

1:02:11

what will probably be no result? And

1:02:14

so I understand their take at the end.