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0:53

one malice murder.

0:54

We, the jury find the defendant.

0:56

Travis McMichael guilty.

0:58

You

0:58

going

0:58

to

0:58

ask

0:58

whoever

0:58

just

0:58

made

0:58

it

1:04

out. First, Last

1:06

week, when a judge in Georgia read the verdict in the trial of three men who killed a mod, Arbery an unarmed black man count Felony

1:18

murder. We, the jury find the defendant.

1:20

Travis McMichael, You

1:22

might've noticed there was a legal principle, Three

1:25

felony murder that was repeated.

1:27

Count four felony murder Over

1:30

and over count Five

1:32

felony murder.

1:33

We, the jury find the defendant.

1:35

Travis McMichael guilty count six Last

1:40

spring, we did a story about felony murder, a legal rule.

1:44

You might not have heard of.

1:45

That's applied in all different situations.

1:47

And

1:47

depending

1:47

on

1:47

who

1:47

you

1:47

talk

1:47

to,

1:47

it's

1:47

either

1:47

a

1:47

tool

1:47

for

1:47

reform

1:47

or

1:47

a

1:47

barbaric

1:47

rule

1:47

that

1:47

should

1:47

be

1:47

abolished

2:01

today. We're rehearing that story.

2:03

Do

2:03

you

2:03

Anissa,

2:03

do

2:03

you

2:03

ever

2:03

dream

2:03

about

2:46

prison? No.

2:47

No,

2:47

no,

2:51

no. Never, never.

2:52

That's

2:52

the

2:52

last

2:52

thing

2:52

I

2:52

think

2:52

about

3:04

Before Anissa Jordan went to prison, she just met someone new.

3:10

My grandmother introduced me to Douglas.

3:13

She had never been married before. She was already a grown woman in her thirties with four kids.

3:18

When she met Douglas, how did you know you were in love?

3:27

Like I have butterflies.

3:28

I

3:28

tell

3:28

him

3:28

my

3:28

serenade,

3:34

me. He is saying for me, like case missing you, Mariah Carey, we belong together.

3:43

He has dance, you know?

3:46

And he wasn't that kind of guy, but he had do it for me.

3:50

He put a spark in my life.

3:55

She hadn't really come alive like that with anybody for a really long time.

4:00

Maybe since she was a kid, It

4:03

was eight of us, four girls, four boys.

4:07

Did you have a favorite sibling Olympia?

4:10

She was the oldest sister and I was the baby.

4:13

If she go out to a party or something, I will wait til she come home.

4:18

I be like girl, but what you was doing it, she was like, girl, you gotta go to bed, but I'll be like, I want to know just being nosy.

4:24

I want the little sister Woodville.

4:26

I could just always talk to her.

4:29

She

4:29

was

4:29

like

4:29

my

4:29

friend,

4:29

my

4:29

best

4:29

friend,

4:29

she

4:29

got

4:37

killed.

4:37

And

4:37

I

4:37

found

4:37

her

4:37

on

4:37

west

4:41

MacArthur. And like whoever killed her, they tortured her like their parents, cigarette holes in her chest.

4:49

It was horrible.

4:57

She was in the fourth grade when it happened and the murder was never solved.

5:02

I wouldn't sleep in my room cause you know, me and her shared a room.

5:05

I was scared.

5:07

I slept with my mom for a whole year.

5:10

That's

5:10

when

5:10

I

5:10

started

5:14

rebelling.

5:18

She rebelled by skipping school and smoking weed.

5:21

Eventually she says she got out of control, shoplifting, selling drugs.

5:26

She did some time in juvie.

5:29

I thought I was grown when I still was a kid.

5:34

And even into adulthood, she kind of moved around the world in a sort of sleepwalk Before

5:42

I met him.

5:42

You know how you can go into a dark place are like you could be depressed and don't know it.

5:49

You just feel tired.

5:51

I

5:51

didn't

5:51

think

5:51

I

5:51

got,

5:51

I

5:51

basically

5:57

care.

5:59

That is until Douglas came along.

6:02

Yeah. To take me somewhere and I'll be like, we're here and be spontaneous.

6:06

Hit that. Meet a fairy land.

6:08

The place I used to go as a kid, One

6:13

day Douglas presented Anessa with a proposal.

6:17

Basically it was a plan to wrap people.

6:21

It

6:21

was,

6:24

And Anissa would play a key role in this plan.

6:28

I was going to ask people for drugs and he was robbed them.

6:32

He

6:32

would

6:35

fight. No one's going to get hurt. I was like, okay.

6:37

You know, I guess I'm sorry I'm doing this for my man.

6:41

Louis

6:41

drive

6:46

May 14th, 2005, the couple sets out to San Francisco by car.

6:52

I just wasn't feeling right all that day.

6:54

I was high.

6:55

I been taking ecstasy pills and just five.

7:00

My mind was wore out.

7:02

I

7:02

had

7:02

this

7:02

jittery

7:02

feeling

7:02

in

7:02

my

7:06

stomach. What was on the fruit by some just kept tongue, like go home, go home.

7:12

And

7:12

I

7:12

just

7:12

didn't

7:12

take

7:12

the

7:12

warning

7:16

sign.

7:19

They arrived at the TL, the Tenderloin in San Francisco with a couple of friends or so We

7:25

had got out and walked on.

7:27

We seeing two black boys let a girl, a black girl, Douglas was walking far back a, seen him.

7:36

He was just like, asked them right there.

7:37

I was like, do y'all got some ecstasy pills for sale.

7:41

And the boy was like, no.

7:44

And everything went according to plan.

7:47

That's when him and Lenore robbed him, Douglas

7:50

pointed a gun at them And

7:52

made them lay down on the ground.

7:56

Did you know he had a gun?

7:59

Yeah.

8:02

Yeah.

8:02

I

8:02

went

8:02

into

8:05

shock. Like I really couldn't believe I was just doing this dumb ass shit.

8:09

I just couldn't And

8:13

things went a little off script.

8:16

Unnecessary. She bros unable to move.

8:19

As Douglas ran back to the car to stash everything.

8:23

They was calling my name, talking about this'll come on, get in the car, get in the car.

8:26

And

8:26

then

8:26

I

8:26

came

8:26

and

8:26

got

8:26

in

8:26

the

8:30

car.

8:30

Douglas

8:30

was

8:30

I

8:30

put

8:30

this

8:30

in

8:30

your

8:30

purse,

8:30

put

8:30

this

8:30

in

8:30

your

8:30

purse

8:36

And necessary. That's when Douglas and his friend went back outside to do another robbery.

8:41

Douglas, Tommy don't get out the car.

8:43

I

8:43

was

8:43

listening

8:43

to

8:43

R

8:47

Kelly.

8:47

I

8:47

think

8:47

it

8:47

was

8:47

filling

8:47

on

8:47

my

8:51

booty.

8:51

And

8:51

then

8:51

the

8:51

next

8:51

thing

8:51

you

8:51

know,

8:51

they

8:51

came

8:51

back

8:51

running

8:51

to

8:51

the

9:00

car. And as soon as we get to the life out there, When

9:07

did you know something had gone wrong?

9:11

When I put them orange clothes on Dressed

9:15

in prison clothes, she learned that while she was in the car, listening to R Kelly Douglas had done more than just robbed somebody.

9:24

The cycle one that's when the boy got cute.

9:27

Douglas had shot and killed a man named Carlos Garvin.

9:30

He was going to be charged with murder, but this was a weird thing.

9:35

They didn't just charge Douglas with murder.

9:38

They charged Anissa to I'm

9:41

not no murderer. I'm not a killer.

9:43

I never seen what happened.

9:46

I was in the car the whole time.

9:49

It seemed like some kind of mistake, but it wasn't a mistake.

9:52

And Lisa was charged with murder under a rule that allows prosecutors to charge people like her.

9:59

All four people sitting in the car that day were charged with murder.

10:05

That felt like how could four people pull one trigger that doesn't make no sense to me.

10:13

The jury ultimately acquitted the person driving the car, but they convicted Anissa of murder.

10:20

Her only hope would be leniency in her sentencing.

10:26

I had got up and I spoke and yes, I did cry.

10:31

I apologize to the deceased family.

10:34

I just stood up in my chair.

10:36

I told the judge that this is not fair because I didn't murder nobody.

10:42

I didn't kill nobody. I wasn't even there.

10:46

Then the judge announced her sentence.

10:49

He told me I got 27 the life.

10:51

And I just looked like I was really in shock.

10:56

I couldn't believe it. I said what life?

10:59

And

10:59

I

10:59

looked

10:59

back

10:59

at

10:59

my

10:59

mom

10:59

and

10:59

my

11:05

brother.

11:05

I

11:05

just

11:05

couldn't

11:05

believe

11:08

it.

11:08

I

11:08

couldn't

11:08

believe

11:11

it.

11:27

This week. We take a close look at the rule in our criminal justice system that gave a Nyssa Jordan, a life sentence for a murder that her boyfriend committed.

11:37

How could a rule like that?

11:40

Which affects many women like Vanessa?

11:43

How could it possibly bring us justice?

11:46

I'm

11:46

Julia

11:50

Longoria. This is the experiment.

11:53

A show about our unfinished country.

11:56

The

11:56

rule

11:56

in

11:56

our

11:56

criminal

11:56

justice

11:56

system

11:56

that

11:56

help

11:56

put

11:56

Anessa

11:56

Jordan

11:56

in

11:56

prison

11:56

for

11:56

life

11:56

has

11:56

a

12:13

name. Had you ever heard of the term felony murder?

12:17

Oh, now I heard of it. I mean, I studied Black's law dictionary stayed in the law library.

12:25

I learned a lot though.

12:26

It's an old law, old law, like it come from British or something like that.

12:33

It has this really weird murky origin.

12:34

People attribute it to a famous British scholar.

12:39

Laura Babylon is a law professor at the university of San Francisco who wrote about a case for the Atlantic.

12:45

And she says the idea of the felony murder rule developed kind of like a game of telephone.

12:52

The history of it, it dates back.

12:54

I mean maybe even, oh my God, it looks like it even dates back to 15 and 35.

13:01

One of the earliest versions of felony murder came from a 16th century case in England.

13:07

There's a guy, his name is Lord daiquiris.

13:09

And he is going out with his friends and they decide that they're going to hunt on someone else's property to poach these, I guess, valuable pheasants.

13:20

They also decide that if anybody tries to stop them, they are going to use lethal force.

13:27

In any event, someone in his party killed a gamekeeper who confronted them.

13:33

And even though Lord daiquiris, wasn't actually physically there.

13:37

He was held responsible for this killing because it was his idea.

13:40

And he was hanged along with everybody else in that hunting party Over

13:47

the centuries, that case boring the basis for a more radical idea, which was that you didn't even need to intend to kill anybody in order to be charged with murder.

13:58

If someone died while you were intending to commit some other serious crime like poaching, pheasants, or conspiring to Rob somebody, you could still be held responsible for murder.

14:12

The thinking is basically in for a penny in for a pound.

14:16

So if you decide that you're going to do something really dangerous, like help your boyfriend, Rob somebody and your boyfriend shoots and kills the victim because you helped with the robbery and knew he was going to commit the robbery.

14:31

You're just as guilty as your boyfriend is.

14:34

And it's a hard kind of thinking to wrap your mind around, particularly because in that attempted robbery, she wasn't even present.

14:43

And this idea of like in, for a penny, in, for a pound, is that something like how common is that in our criminal justice system, it's Extremely

14:51

common over 40

14:53

states and the district of Columbia have some version of the felony murder rule on their books, basically Glee

15:00

it's deterrent, trying to suggest to people you shouldn't be participating in any of this dangerous conduct at all.

15:09

There's a sense of visceral justice that in your gut, you think, but for that guy, this would never have happened.

15:19

But for that woman, this never would have happened.

15:21

And it allows you to, to feel like this raw justice was done because they deserved it.

15:33

Kamala Harris was the da them and Gavin.

15:36

Those soon was the mayor In

15:38

2006, the year. And this is verdict came down.

15:40

San Francisco's district attorney was Camila Harris.

15:45

We believe in the work of my office has proven it to be true.

15:47

That when we're talking about serious and violent crime, lock them up in San Francisco in my office, we've increased the conviction rates for the DA's office to the highest they've been.

15:55

And just 15 years back then, as she said, in a later interview, she and the mayor, Gavin Newsome wanted to be tough on crime.

16:04

They like many Democrats wanted to come across as people who were not going to be seen as soft on crime that were going to be seen as I think the catchphrase was smart on crime.

16:16

And that meant holding people accountable, particularly for, for violent crimes.

16:23

When this verdict came down, Our case was on a news in the newspaper and things like that.

16:30

Kamala Harris and the mayor held a press conference to celebrate the verdict.

16:35

What Kamala Harris said was the verdict showed that her office had made good on its commitment to cracking down on crimes.

16:43

That involved guns.

16:48

Everyone has to pay a price, but I feel like be held accountable for yo part.

16:56

I'm

16:56

not

16:56

a

17:00

murderer.

17:00

When

17:00

I

17:00

had

17:00

got

17:00

to

17:00

prison,

17:00

I

17:00

didn't

17:00

get

17:00

caught

17:00

up

17:00

in

17:00

prison

17:00

politics

17:00

out

17:00

of

17:00

do

17:14

nothing. I stayed in the law library. I stayed in my word and I stayed on the right path.

17:18

My focus was to get out.

17:21

Anissa had been in prison for about 10 years, reading the Bible, taking classes, educating herself while outside prison, there was a fight for me.

17:31

I'll try to watch my swearing.

17:35

I mean, feel free to swear as much as you like truly.

17:38

I mean, I called up Kate Chatfield, a director at the justice collaborative I've It

17:43

would probably have a lot of unresolved anger issues.

17:49

And being in a courtroom is a good way to work those hours.

17:53

I mean, it was a courtroom, the right place to get out those issues.

17:56

Absolutely. Yeah.

17:58

You

17:58

charged

17:58

my

17:58

client

17:58

have

18:03

did. This is an outrage Among

18:05

the things that make Kate angry is the felony murder rule.

18:09

It doesn't make sense. Murder is a homicide with malice, right?

18:14

Somebody has to intend the murder. Now I'm being told about this rural where, okay, okay, wait, there's this huge glaring ginormous exception over here to murder.

18:24

And that's the felony murder rule.

18:27

And it sweeps up all a lot of people year in, year out.

18:31

So it's just the exception that, that eats the rule.

18:36

She heard about dozens of cases.

18:37

Like Anissa's one of the most striking ones to her was a group of teenagers who decided one day to sneak into an old man's house and steal some stuff.

18:47

One of the boys wandered by himself into the, The

18:51

kitchen. He's 15 years old, he's looking through The

18:55

drawers and he takes some chocolates.

18:56

Meanwhile, two of his friends who were a little older than him were in another part of the house and they encountered the owner who turned out to be at home.

19:06

It seems like they got into some kind of fight And

19:09

they all then resident, he dies.

19:12

Two older boys were charged with murder, but so was the 15 year old who was in the kitchen stealing chocolate.

19:20

They're saying you had the intention to go and commit that burglary.

19:24

So that's the underlying felony, which is burglary.

19:28

And they said, and it Def occurred during that felony.

19:32

So therefore we're going to charge you with murder.

19:37

I see. So with felony murder, there has to be some like intent to do something else.

19:41

That's criminal. Yes.

19:42

Yes, Exactly.

19:44

And it's sort of like that intent stands in or like Wells into this larger intent to kill That's

19:52

exactly right. The fact that you were engaged in a burglary and somebody died felony murder, the 15

19:59

year old in that case got 25 years to life.

20:02

It's a barbaric rule is we have to have laws that connect our culpability with our intention.

20:09

What did we intend to do?

20:11

What did we actually do?

20:13

And what did we intend to have happen?

20:15

This rule has been abolished and every other country that derives its law from the English common law, even in England, it's no longer a rule in England where the last, the last vestige of this barbaric rule, Kate

20:30

helped do a survey of inmates in California, serving time for felony murder.

20:34

They found that the rule was disproportionately affecting women and youth of color.

20:39

And that 72% of women serving life sentences for felony murder had not actually killed nearly two thirds of the time.

20:49

The killer, the person who quote unquote pulled the trigger was the woman's romantic partner And

20:56

drafted a resolution by both houses of the legislature in California, the assembly in the Senate, that sort of outlined what the felony murder rule was and why we need to change it.

21:08

The bill would essentially got the felony murder rule in California.

21:12

It would make it so that you could only prosecute the person who did the killing themselves.

21:16

Someone who was a major participant in the felony who had reckless indifference to human life or someone who aided in the killing.

21:25

But that person would also need to have an intent to kill.

21:29

And who was kind of against you?

21:32

Oh, the California district attorneys association.

21:33

This was their number one kill bill.

21:36

But after six months of debate, the bill passed in the state assembly by one vote.

21:41

And what happened next was state assembly, staffers contacted California's prisons.

21:49

And they said, please help Kate Chatfield to go on a tour of prisons throughout California, to educate people about the law and to see if they're eligible for re sentencing so they can petition the court to go back and get re-sentenced.

22:02

So I think we went to almost every prison in the state of California.

22:12

One of the prisoners that Kate Chatfield visited in prison was in a said, Jordan, The

22:17

lesbians law library, talking about all this new thing coming into effect.

22:21

So I start reading on it.

22:25

This law was retroactive.

22:26

So Anissa would be one of the people who would be eligible for lease.

22:33

So I was like, I couldn't believe it.

22:36

Like I was really, really leaving. And it was like butterflies swarm the whole prison.

22:42

It was just like butterflies in the prison for a whole week.

22:46

My

22:46

roommate

22:46

said,

22:46

you

22:46

read

22:50

it. You know, freedom is kind of leaving Advocates.

22:56

Say the gutting of the felony murder rule in California could affect hundreds of prisoners.

23:01

The rules also been gutted and Hawaii, Kentucky, Michigan, and Massachusetts.

23:07

And there are movements brewing to reform the felony murder rules in Pennsylvania and Minnesota.

23:13

But

23:13

in

23:13

the

23:13

last

23:13

few

23:13

months,

23:13

the

23:13

rules

23:13

been

23:13

used

23:13

in

23:13

a

23:13

way

23:13

you

23:13

might

23:13

not

23:13

expect

23:13

that's

23:13

after

23:13

the

23:13

break

23:37

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24:46

Hey, this is Al Ledson from the center for investigative reporting and PRX.

24:49

I've been carrying around a story for a decade.

24:52

I first heard about it on a reporting trip in rural Mississippi, and it reminded me so much of growing up as a black kid in the south.

25:00

It's about how justice in America looks different for different people.

25:04

Our seven part series, Mississippi goddamn the ballot.

25:08

A Billy Joe is out now listen and reveals podcast feed.

25:21

My name is Keith Ellison. I'm the attorney general for the state of Minnesota.

25:25

And how should I refer to you? Do people refer to you as AIG Ellison?

25:29

Or like what, what are you like?

25:30

They Call me Keith.

25:32

All right. Can you, well, Keith, I wanted to talk to you because you're the prosecutor on the most high profile police case in the country right now.

25:41

So in the case against former officer Derek, Chovan Now

25:46

see here's the problem. I can't really talk about that case.

25:50

I talked to Keith back in February before the murder trial of Derek tropen even started Worried

25:56

about his right to a fair trial.

25:58

Totally understand, and can not say things to gin up hostility against him.

26:03

I want to see him convicted on the evidence.

26:06

And last week Keith's office did just that.

26:10

Remember as the jury, I will now read the verdicts as they will appear in the permanent records of the fourth judicial district, state of Minnesota.

26:17

I wouldn't be able to tell for most of the headlines, but the jury in this case, wasn't asked to consider whether Chovan intended to kill George Floyd.

26:27

We're going to count one unintentional, second degree murder while committing a felony.

26:31

We, the jury find the defendant guilty.

26:34

What the jury was instructed to consider was if Chovan intended to assault him and if Chovan caused his death, the charge was felony murder.

26:44

I wonder when, when you're thinking about prosecuting crimes, what do you think the role of intent should be?

26:55

Intent does matter, but there are a lot of things that people will do wrong, that they don't have the internet for.

27:03

Say, for example, if somebody is driving by in a car and shoots into a house and they kill somebody, now they may not have been aiming at that person.

27:15

They may not even know that person, but what they did is so inherently wrong.

27:20

That even if they did not intend to kill a particular person, that they still need to be held responsible for what they did.

27:29

In the case of George Floyd's death, Derek Chovan has been convicted of felony murder.

27:34

There were three other officers standing by while Chovan murdered George Floyd.

27:41

At first, those officers weren't charged with anything.

27:45

Then Keith charged those officers with felony murder to technically under the law.

27:52

They could serve the same amount of time that Chovan will they'll face trial in the next few months.

28:00

Let me just say, and I'm speaking theoretically here.

28:02

The thing is that the state still has to prove that the aiders and betters, in fact, aided and abetted and just being there is not going to be enough.

28:13

You're going to have to prove that they assisted in the commission of that crime.

28:17

And then you got the, the jury might not buy it.

28:20

They might buy it. They might not buy.

28:22

And so in the case of Derek Chovan, which I know we can't talk about.

28:28

It's really, that creates problems for me to talk about that.

28:31

Yeah. Okay. So I was struggling to understand why Keith used felony murder.

28:42

This rule that other states were trying to get rid of couldn't he have used something else to prosecute these officers, but he just couldn't get into the specifics of this case to answer my question.

28:53

So I called Melissa, Rudman a professor of law at the university of Georgia.

28:59

I actually went to law school. I was a claims adjuster for Geico, which I also loved.

29:04

My initial thought was the corporate counsel for Geico.

29:08

She didn't do that. She ended up going into criminal law, spent years as a defense attorney, then as a prosecutor.

29:14

And it turns out that she prosecuted a case a lot like Derek back in 2014 before the death of George Floyd, before Michael Brown, before Eric Garner, there was Gregory towns.

29:31

How

29:31

did

29:31

it

29:31

all

29:33

start? It started with a domestic violence call A

29:38

woman in the east point suburb of Atlanta called 9 1, 1 saying her boyfriend assaulted her two minutes later, two police officers showed up to her townhouse complex and see a man who fits the description of her boyfriend.

29:53

Gregory Ask

29:55

the police were arriving.

29:56

He was leaving on foot.

29:59

They say, Hey, we got a call about a domestic dispute.

30:04

He kind of backs away.

30:06

And then he takes off running Gregory

30:10

towns, disappeared into the woods nearby.

30:13

They both start chasing him. At first one turns back to secure the police car.

30:19

The officer chasing him, finally corners him in the woods And

30:23

there he's kind of worn out and tired and on the ground, I think at some point he trips and falls and says, okay, you got me, but couldn't walk.

30:35

The officer, handcuffs, him and calls for backup.

30:37

That's when Sergeant Marcus Everhart and corporal Howard Weems Jr.

30:42

Arrive on the scene, they try to get him to get up and move And

30:47

basically kept saying, I can't breathe.

30:50

Just let me rest.

30:50

And

30:50

they

30:50

started

30:50

using

30:50

the

30:50

tasers

30:50

as

30:50

a

30:50

cattle

30:50

prod

30:50

to

30:50

get

30:50

them

30:50

to

30:50

get

30:50

up

30:50

and

30:58

walk.

30:58

He

30:58

would

30:58

get

30:58

up

30:58

and

30:58

walk

30:58

a

30:58

few

30:58

steps

30:58

and

30:58

then

30:58

collapse

30:58

again

30:58

again

30:58

saying,

30:58

you

30:58

know,

30:58

just

30:58

give

30:58

me

30:58

a

31:07

minute. I'm tired just, and just gave me a minute.

31:11

The officers fired their tasers. 14 times They

31:17

were ready to get out of the woods and they were annoyed and they just kept prodding him and prodding him with these tasers until his heart came back.

31:36

What did you make of your chances to get a conviction based on the facts of the case?

31:41

Well, it was very difficult because it wasn't a shooting case.

31:44

It wasn't a case where he was beaten.

31:45

You know, he had underlying health issues that made him susceptible to his heart, giving out from the repeated stimulation from the tazing At

31:57

the time in 2014 warrant marketed as lethal weapons.

32:01

So did the officers intend to kill the man with tasers?

32:06

Maybe not, but he did die as a result of their actions.

32:11

So is that murder?

32:14

And if so, what kind Felony

32:18

murder is going to be the only option you have in prosecuting a police officer for conduct that results in a death.

32:25

You're very unlikely to convince a jury that any officer intentionally set out in their actions to take the life of a civilian.

32:34

So being able to prove that they intended to put their knee on the neck of Georgia, Florida, they intended to commit whatever underlying felony and that felony resulted in the death of someone is a much easier case to prove it fits the facts of the case With

32:53

felony murder. Melissa needed to prove that the officer's intended not to kill, but to commit aggravated assault in this case, by tasing even.

33:04

So her odds of conviction were slim.

33:07

This is very rare.

33:08

It was kind of like, you know, this is, we might not get a conviction, but if there is a case, this is the case, but you can't pay someone, you know, 13, 14 times when they're handcuffed on the ground, just asking you to give them a minute to catch their breath.

33:24

Like you, can't not prosecute that case.

33:27

I

33:27

remember

33:27

the

33:27

family

33:27

just

33:27

wanting

33:27

the

33:27

offices

33:27

to

33:27

acknowledge

33:27

that

33:27

they

33:27

did

33:27

something

33:27

wrong

33:27

that

33:27

this

33:27

son

33:27

and

33:27

his

33:27

father

33:27

was

33:27

no

33:27

longer

33:27

with

33:27

us

33:27

because

33:27

of

33:27

what

33:27

they

33:27

did

33:27

and

33:27

that

33:27

how

33:27

unnecessary

33:27

it

33:42

was. Like all they had to do was wait and be a little bit patient.

33:45

And Mr.

33:47

was still be alive.

33:48

And I think it was the senselessness of it.

33:51

Like this didn't have to happen.

33:54

That kind of stuck with us during the entire trial, After

33:59

a two-week trial. The jury in this case decided that the Sergeant was guilty.

34:07

And that's it.

34:09

And how did you feel when, when, when they said that you got a conviction, I

34:15

was glad for the family. I mean, you're never really happy because it really doesn't change the fact that this person is no longer with us, but you do hope it changes something.

34:28

You know, you hope it sends a message of less susceptible than west not.

34:32

And you hope that you've prevented another death by another police officer.

34:38

Unfortunately,

34:38

that

34:38

I

34:38

think

34:38

there

34:38

were

34:38

two

34:38

or

34:38

three

34:38

other

34:38

deaths

34:38

from

34:38

tasers

34:38

in

34:38

Georgia

34:38

after

34:38

this

34:45

case. So we didn't really accomplish that.

34:47

But if you believe that people who commit crimes should be held responsible for their actions, then that's really the outcome you want is a jury saying, yes, these individuals are responsible for the death of Mr town and they need to be punished for that.

35:10

Sergeant Eberhart would later be sentenced to life in prison.

35:13

The other officer, his subordinate Weems was acquitted of the felony murder charge and ended up with an 18 month prison sentence for involuntary manslaughter.

35:26

I understand that we need to hold police accountable.

35:29

It believe me.

35:30

I understand that, but we can't use this terrible rule to do So.

35:39

Kate Chatfield, again, who fought the felony murder rule in California, The

35:44

use of the felony murder rule is wrong.

35:46

It's a shortcut to get a murder conviction.

35:49

I think it's wrong.

35:51

Whether it's used against an officer or against anybody, She

35:55

says Derek Chovan could not have been charged with felony murder in California, even before the reform.

36:00

She says there are other routes to convict him in her state.

36:04

Like he could have been charged with second degree murder.

36:07

They could have taken the extra step to show.

36:10

Chovan had a conscious disregard for human life, or they could have charged him with intentional murder By

36:17

propping up this terrible rule.

36:19

However, we do it. We have to understand this rule is primarily used against black people and people of color.

36:28

And the effects of this law have been and will continue to be born by young people of color in this country.

36:38

So if the felony murder rule where the only way to effectively prosecute police officers who kill would you still not use it?

36:52

I just can't accept that. I mean, that's just like a, not, it's a false question.

36:56

I'm sorry. It's just like, it's not the only way.

36:59

It's a lazy prosecutors way to get to murder.

37:03

And it's like, no show the intent to kill because you have plenty of evidence that there's an intent to kill, you know, and, and show that to the jury.

37:12

And if the jury decides, yeah, he intended to kill him.

37:15

And after like the prosecutor present the NATS murder, and I'm not saying that these officers can't be charged with murder.

37:23

I just want to see the felony murder rule, you know, abolished in stop.

37:30

I will say this about the felony murder rule.

37:32

It is an important tool, but there are situations where it's not appropriate and where it does seem really unfair.

37:41

I asked Keith about this and he agreed that there is a kind of case where the felony murder rule results in an injustice.

37:50

I've seen a situation where a man grabs a female partner, his partner, and says, come with Me

37:56

situations like you were there In

37:59

the commission of a felony, a robbery, and somebody was killed, even though you didn't do it, you were accomplished.

38:06

And you stood in the commission of that offense.

38:08

That seems to be a manifest injustice.

38:10

To me, Both Keith and Melissa, aren't opposed to reform limiting who can be charged with felony murder or changing guidelines for sentencing those people.

38:21

But it's not necessarily clear where the line would be drawn between someone like Anissa and someone like Chovan or the officers who stood by while Chovan murdered.

38:32

George Floyd. Let me tell you a justice system.

38:35

We're not a justice system, but we're trying to be one.

38:38

And what that means is that justice Should

38:41

have mercy in there too.

38:43

It should factor in shades of culpability.

38:46

W what do you say to people who say like the felony murder rule is basically a lazy way for prosecutors to get a conviction?

38:56

I guess, to those people, what I would say is if somebody comes to me with a good way to reform the felony murder rule to make it work as it should, then I think that that's fine.

39:05

If somebody wants to just say it should never exist.

39:07

I guess I don't agree with them on that one, but I mean, it's this ever evolving thing where we have this society that has a lot of injustice in it, and people still need some justice.

39:18

So we got to keep on trying until we get it right.

39:24

I admire your, your hope in the system.

39:27

Well, again, but let me just say this. I also think saying everything's sucks.

39:31

Nothing's right. Everybody's crooked.

39:33

I think that's sort of a cop out too, though, right?

39:36

Totally. I mean, if somebody went to MLK in 1950 and said, do, what are you, what are you leading this protest for man?

39:42

This, you know, it's out, we've always had racism, slavery, Jim Crow, and we're always going to have it.

39:47

So you were just wasting your time.

39:48

You're naive.

39:50

You believe in the system and I'm hip and cool and aware, and I'm woke and I don't believe in it.

39:56

So I'm not going to waste my time trying to reform anything.

39:58

I'm

39:58

not

39:58

on

39:58

that

40:01

team. I don't see the world that way.

40:20

And is that, are you, I hear like water running in the background.

40:23

Are you near some water?

40:26

Oh, your fish tank.

40:29

Okay. I have a L binal, asker, African fish.

40:35

It got stripes on it. How big are they?

40:37

Oh, they're getting big.

40:41

Yeah. So if you could take like a little step away from the fish tank, I'm here, you sounded like you were like in a water.

40:54

Cool. Thank you.

40:55

So how, how do you think back now on, on everything that happened to you?

41:06

I look back like I shouldn't have got all that time, but it helped me.

41:12

Cause I learned a lot, you know, as I was there, I started better in myself and learning a lot of things about myself.

41:19

You know, like my behavior, where it come from, I took this group is called, why do we do the things that we do?

41:28

That group was really, really deep.

41:30

Cause it take you back all the way to your childhood.

41:33

It

41:33

was

41:33

like

41:33

a

41:33

psychology

41:36

class. It talks about depression, stress things that happened to me.

41:41

And you know, like how you suppress stuff is suppress and it's not good.

41:47

Cause when you suppress, you explode, it's like anger.

41:50

You make the wrong decisions.

41:53

When you angry.

41:54

Instead

41:54

of

41:54

thinking

41:54

things

41:54

through

41:54

School-ish

41:54

I

41:54

was

42:05

foolish.

42:05

I

42:05

really

42:05

was

42:05

foolish

42:05

because

42:05

I

42:05

allow

42:05

my

42:05

foolish

42:05

behavior

42:05

to

42:05

put

42:05

me

42:05

in

42:05

a

42:05

position

42:05

where

42:05

somebody

42:05

else

42:05

got

42:19

hurt.

42:19

And

42:19

I

42:19

just

42:19

know

42:19

that's

42:19

not

42:19

my

42:23

character. Like I don't, I don't condones people getting killed or harmed or anything like that because my sister lost her life being in the streets.

42:41

But another thing I wanted to ask you about is that the felony murder rule is actually being used in the case of George Floyd to prosecute police officers who killed unarmed civilians.

42:53

What do you think about that?

42:57

Oh, you talking about the guy? I seen that on the news.

43:00

That was horrible is bullshit.

43:02

Cause

43:02

to

43:02

me

43:02

pay

43:02

in

43:02

10,

43:02

don't

43:02

kill

43:07

him.

43:07

Cause

43:07

all

43:07

he

43:07

had

43:07

to

43:07

do

43:07

was

43:11

me. He didn't have to do all that extra shit, But,

43:15

but what about the officer who's standing by?

43:17

Yeah, that could have prevented it. It could have stopped their partner.

43:20

They didn't even try.

43:23

Is it different when it's applied to police?

43:27

I'm gonna say this police are human too.

43:30

I

43:30

just

43:30

feel

43:30

like

43:30

we

43:30

should

43:30

be

43:35

fair. It should be fair all around the board because at the end of the day, God's just only see his people This

44:21

episode was produced by Julia Longoria and me Alvin Melmoth with editing by Catherine Wells.

44:27

Fact-check by weld Gordon sound designed by David music by tasty morsels special.

44:34

Thanks to Adam Harris and John Swanberg.

44:36

The team also includes Gabrielle Burbay Emily Botein, Natalia Ramirez, Tracy hunt, and Matt collect.

44:44

This episode is part of the Atlantic's project, the cycle, which is supported by a grant from the John D and Catherine T MacArthur foundation, safety and justice challenge.

44:54

You can find Laura Babylon's full article.

44:57

What makes a murderer@ourwebsitewwwdottheatlantic.com slash experiment.

45:04

And if you appreciated this week's episode, please leave a survey view on apple podcasts.

45:08

The experiment is a co-production of the Atlantic and w NYC studios.

45:14

Thanks for listening.

45:36

One more radio lab. Now you can get more Radiolab on our YouTube channel.

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The experiment is supported by Boston consulting experiment is supported by Boston Consulting Group. Climate targets are increasingly more ambitious, but time is running out for companies around the globe. On the new podcast series Sustainability Inc. Here how industry leaders are implementing net zero strategies in the fight to save the planet. Sustainability Inc. Is a Boston Consulting Group podcast produced by Fortune Brands Studio. Without the participation of the Fortune editorial staff, Subscribe wherever you listen. The The experiment is supported by first Republic bank, which is committed to providing next level extraordinary service to every single client to discover what you're experiment is supported by First Republic Bank, which is committed to providing next level extraordinary service to every single client. To discover what you're missing, visit first republic dot com. Member FDIC Equal Housing Lender. Listener supported, WNYC Studios. Didnt one, malice murder. We the jury find defendant Travis McMichael guilty. You gotta ask that whoever just made it out first. Last week, when a judge in Georgia read the verdict in the trial of three men who killed Ahmad Arbery, an unarmed black man. Count 29, Felony murder. We, the jury, find the defendant Travis McMichael guilt. You might have noticed there was a legal principle. Count three felony murder. That was repeated. Count four. Over and over. Count five. Felony murder. We the jury find the defendant. Travis McMichael guilty count six Travis McMichael guilty. Didnt six. Last spring, we did a story about felony murder. A legal rule you might not have heard of. That's applied in all different that's applied in all different situations. And depending on who you talk to, it's either a tool for reform or a barbaric rule. That you'd be abolished. Today, we're re airing that story. Do you and I said, do you ofThe a dream about prison? No. No. No. No. Never ever. No. That's the last thing I think about. Before Anissa Jordan went to prison, she just met someone new. My grandmother introduced me to grandmother introduced me to Douglas She had never been married before. She was already a grown woman in her thirties with four kids when she met Douglas. How did you know you were in love? The filling down to my stomach, like I have butterflies. I tell him my serenade, I tell him by Sarah Nave me. He has singed for me. Like caves missing you. Mariah Carey. We belong together. He had dance, you and he wasn't that kind of guy. But he had do it for me. He put a spark in my life. She hadn't really come alive like that with anybody for a really long hadn't really come alive like that with anybody for a really long time. Maybe since she was a kid, there was eight of us, four girls, four boys, Didnt you have a favorite sibling? Olympia? She was the oldest sister and I was the She was the oldest sister and I was the baby. If she go out to a party or something, I will wait till she come home. I'll be like, girl, what what she was doing then? She was like, girl, you better go to bed, but I'll be like, I wanna know just be a nosy back when the little sister would do. I could just always talk to her. She was like, my friend, my best friend. She got killed, and they found her on West MacArthur, and, like, whoever killed her. They tortured her, like, they burned cigarette house her chest. It was horrible. Oh my god. Yeah. She was in the fourth grade when it happened. And the murder was never solved. I wouldn't sleep in my room because, you know, me and her shared a room, I was skier. I slept with my mom for a whole year. That's when I started rebelling. She rebelled by skipping school and smoking rebelled by skipping school and smoking weed. Eventually, she says she got out of control. Shoplifting, selling drugs. She did some time in Juvy. I thought I was grown when I still was a kid. And even into adulthood, she kinda moved around the world in a sort of sleep walk, like before I met him you know how you can go into a dark place or, like, you could be depressed and don't know it. You just feel tired. I didn't think. Like, I I basically didn't care That is until Douglas came along. He had to come home and take me somewhere. And I've been like, where I didnt spot in attendance yet. That made ferry Anissa place I used to go as a kid. One day, Douglas presented Anissa with a proposal. Basically, it was a plan to rob people It was. And Anissa would play a key role in this would play a key role in this plan. I was going to ask people for drugs and he was robbed I was gonna ask people for drugs and he was on a robin. He was like, no one's gonna get hurt. I was like, okay? Do you know? I guess I was like, I'm doing this for my man. We was driving. May 14th, 2005, the couple sets out to San Francisco by May fourteenth two thousand five. The couple sets out to San Francisco by car. I just wasn't feeling right all that day. I was high. I've been taking it. Exisy pills, and just like my mind was worn out. I had this jittery filling in my stomach boys on a freeway, so I just kept telling, like, go home. Go home. And I just didn't take the warning sign. They arrived at the TL, the tenderloin didnt San Francisco with couple friends So we had got out and walked. And we're seeing two black boys with a girl, a black girl. Douglas was walking far back. They seen him. He was just 29 axed him right there. I was like, do y'all got some ecstasy pills, physician, and the boy was like, no. And everything went according to plan. That's when Hemelanora wrapped them. Douglas pointed a gun at them and made them lay down on the ground, Didnt you know he had a gun? Yeah. Yeah. I knew. I wanted to shock. Like, I really couldn't believe I was just doing this dumbass shit. I just couldn't. Then And things went a little off things went a little off script. Anissa says she froze, unable to move, as Douglas ran back to the car to stash everything. They was calling my name, talking about this'll come on, get in the car, get in the calling my name, telling my come on, get in the car, get in the car. And then I came and got in the car. Douglas was I put this in your purse, put this in your purse. And it just says that's when Douglas and his friend went back outside to do another robbery. Doug was telling me get out the car. I was listening to r Kelly. I think it was filling on my think was filling on my boutique. And then next thing you know, they came back running to the floor. And as soon as we get to their life, the police pulled 29 out there. When did you know something had gone wrong? When I put them orange clothes on? Dressed in prison clothes. She learned that while she was in the car listening to r Kelly, Douglas had done more than just robbed somebody. The cycle one that's when the boy got second one, that's when boy got cute. Douglas had shot and killed a man named Carlos Garvin. He was gonna be charged with murder. But this was a weird thing. They didn't just charge Douglas with murder. They charged Anissa 29. I'm not no murderer. I'm not a killer. I've never seen what happened. I was in the court a whole time. It seemed like some kind of mistake, but it wasn't a mistake. Anissa was charged with murder under rule that allows prosecutors to charge people like her. All four people sitting in the car that day were charged with murder. That felt like how could four people pull one trigger that doesn't make no sense to felt like, how can four people pull one trigger? That doesn't make no sense to me. The jury ultimately acquitted the person driving the car, but they convicted Anissa of jury ultimately acquitted the person driving the car, but they convicted Anissa of murder. Her only hope would be leniency in her sentencing. I had got an asphalt and Yes. I did cry. I apologized to the deceased family. I just stood up in my chair. I told the judge that This is not fair because I didn't murder nobody. I didn't kill I didn't kill nobody. I wasn't even near. Then the judge announced her sentence. He told me I got twenty seven a life. And I just looked like I was really shock. I couldn't believe couldn't believe it. I said what I said, what? Life? And I looked back at my mom and my brother. I just couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it. This week, we take a close look at the rule in our criminal justice That gave Anissa Jordan a life sentence for murder that her boyfriend committed. How could a rule like that which affects many women like Anissa. How could it possibly bring us justice? I'm Julia Longoria. This is the experiment, a show about our unfinished country. rule in our criminal justice system that helped put Jordan in prison for life has a name. Had you ever heard of the term felony murder? Oh, now I heard of it. I mean, I studied. was like, yes. I'm thirty, I had a black law dictionary stating law library. I'll answer the light, though. It's a old law or old law. Like, it it come from British or something like that. It has this really weird murky origin people attribute it to a famous British scholar. Lara Baselon is a law professor at the University of San Francisco who wrote about Innis' case for the Atlantic. She says the idea of the felony murder rule developed kind of like a game of telephone. The history of it, it it dates back. I mean, maybe even oh my god. It looks like it even dates back to fifty and thirty five. One of the earliest versions of felony murder came from a sixteenth century case in England. There's a guy, his name is Lord Daqueries. And he is going out with his friends and they decide that they're gonna hunt on someone else's property to poach these, I guess, valuable bezums. They also decide that if anybody tries to stop them, they are going to use lethal force. In any event, someone in his party killed a gamekeeper who confronted them. And even though Lord Dachry's wasn't actually physically there. He was held responsible for this killing because it was his idea and he was hanged along with everybody else. In that hunting party. Over the centuries, that case formed the basis for a more radical idea. Which was that you didn't even need to intend to kill anybody in order to be charged with murder. If someone died while you were intending commit some other serious crime, like poaching pheasants or conspiring to rob somebody, you could still be held responsible for murder. The thinking is basically in for a penny in for a thinking is basically didnt for a penny, in for a pound. So if you decide that you're gonna do something really dangerous like help your boyfriend rob somebody and your boyfriend shoots and kills the victim because you helped with the robbery and knew he was gonna commit ofThe you're just as guilty as your boyfriend is. And it's a hard kind of thinking to wrap your mind around particularly because in that attempted robbery. She wasn't even present. And this idea of, like, in for a penny, in for a pound, is that something like, how common is that in our criminal justice system. It's extremely common. Over forty states and the District of Columbia have some version of the felony murder rule on their books. Basically, it's deterrent trying to suggest to people, you shouldn't be abating in any of this dangerous conduct at all. There's a sense of visceral justice that in your gut, you think, but for that guy, this would never have happened. But for that woman, this never would have happened. And it allows you to to feel like this raw justice was done because they deserved it. Kamala Harris was the da them and Harris was the DA DM, and Gavin Newsom was the mayor. Didnt two thousand six, the year, and this is verdict came down. San Francisco's district attorney was Kamala Harris. I strongly believe and the work of my office has proven it to be true that when we're talking about serious and violent crime, walk them up. In San Francisco, in my office, we've increased the conviction rates for the DA's office to the highest they've been in just under fifteen years. Back then, as she said later interview, She and the mayor Gavin Newsom wanted to be tough on crime. They like many Democrats wanted to come across as people who were not gonna be seen as soft on crime that were gonna be seen as I think catch race was smart on crime. And that meant holding people accountable, particularly for violent crimes. When a missus verdict came down, our case was on ofThe news in in the newspaper and things like that. Carmel Harris and the mayor held a press conference to celebrate the verdict. What Kamala Harris said was the verdict showed that Her office had made good on its commitment to cracking down on crimes. That involved that involved guns. Everyone has to pay a price. But I feel like be held accountable for your part. I'm not a murderer. When I had got to prison, I didn't get caught up in prison politics. I didn't do nothing. I stayed in law library. I stayed in my work and I stayed on the right path. My focus was to get out. Anissa had been in prison for about ten years, reading the bible, taking classes, educating herself, while outside prison, there was a fight forming. I'll try to watch my try to watch my swearing. No. They can't I mean, feel free to swear as much as you like mean, feel free to swear as much as you'd like. Truly. I mean, like I called up Kate Chatfield. A director at the justice collaborative. I've you'd probably have a lot of unresolved anger issues and being courtroom is a good way to work those out? I mean, is a courtroom the right place to to get out those issues? Absolutely. Yeah. How dare you charge my client? How did. This is an outrage this is an outrage? Among the things that make Kate angry, is the felony murder rule. It doesn't make sense. Murder is a homicide with malice. Right? Somebody has to the murder. Now I'm being told about this rule where, okay, okay, wait, there's this huge glaring ginormous exception over here. To murder. And that's the felony murder rule, and it sweeps up a lot of people year in year out. So it's just the exception that that eats the rule. She heard about dozens of cases, like adhesives. One of the most striking ones to her was a group of teenagers who decided one day to sneak into an old man's house and steal some stuff. One of the boys wandered by himself into the kitchen. He's fifteen years old, he's looking through the drawers, and he takes them chocolates. Meanwhile, two of his friends who were little older than him were in another part of the house, and they encountered the owner who turned out to be at home. Seems like they got into some kind of fight. And the elderly resident, he dies. Two older boys were charged with murder, but so was the fifteen year old? Who is in the kitchen stealing chocolates. They're saying, you have the intention to go and commit that burglary. So that's the underlying felony, which is a burglary, and they said, and a death occurred during that therefore, we're gonna charge you with murder. I I see. So with felony murder, there has to be some, like, intent to do something else that's criminal. Yes. Yes. Exactly. And it's sort of like that intent stands in or like -- Yes. -- wells into this larger intent to kill. That's exactly right. The fact that you were engaged in a burglary and somebody died felony murder. ofThe year old that case got twenty five years to life. It's a barbaric rule. It's we have to have laws that connect our culpability with our intention. What did we intend to do? What did we actually do? And what did we intend to have happened? This rule has been abolished every other country that derives its law from the English common law. Even in England, It's no longer a rule in England where the last ofThe last vestige of this barbaric rule. Kate helped do a survey of inmates in Cal Farnia serving time for felony murder. They found that the rule was disproportionately affecting women and youth of color. And that seventy two percent of women serving life sentences for felony murder had not actually killed anyone. Nearly two thirds of time, the killer, the person who, quote unquote, pulled the trigger, was the woman's romantic partner. We and drafted a resolution by both houses of the legislature in California, the assembly the senate. That sort of outlined what felony murder rule was and why we need to change it. The bill would essentially got the felony murder rule in bill would essentially gut the felony murder rule in California. It would make it so that you could only prosecute the person who did the killing themselves, someone who was a major participant in the felony, who had reckless indifference to human life or someone who didnt in the killing, but that person would also need to have an intent to kill. And who is kind of against you? Oh, the California District Attorney's Association. This was their number one kill bill. But after six months of debate, ofThe passed in state assembly by one vote. And what happened next? Was state assembly staffers contacted California's prisons. And they said, please help Kate Sheffield to go on a tour of prisons throughout California 29 educate people about the law. And to see if they're eligible for resenting so they can petition the court to go back and get resentenced. So I think we went to almost every prison in the state of California. One of the prisoners that Kate Chuckfield visited in prison was Anissa Jordan. The lay ins Law, like, Barry 29 talk about all this new thing coming into effect, so I start reading on it. This law was retroactive. So Anissa would be one of the people who would be eligible for a lease. So I was like, what? I couldn't believe it. Like I was really, really Like, I was really gonna it. It was like butterflies swarmed the whole prison. It was just like butterflies in the prison for a whole week. And my woman said, you leave it. Your freedom is kind of relieving. I would say the gutting of the felony murder rule in California could affect hundreds of prisoners. The rules also been gutted in Hawaii, Kentucky, Michigan, and Massachusetts AND THERE ARE MOVEMENTS BROING TO REFORM THE FELONY MURDER RULES IN Pennsylvania AND MINNESOTA. BUT IN THE LAST FEW MONTHS, The rules been used in a way you might not expect. That's after the break. W NYC studios is supported by Studios is supported by forward. Did you know 40% of deaths from leading causes are Did you know forty percent of deaths from leading causes are preventable. That's why forward is committed to helping you lower any health risks today by building the world's first long-term doctor focused on keeping you healthy, not just treating you when you're sick That's why Ford is committed to helping you lower any health risks today by building the world's first long term doctor focused on keeping you healthy, not just treating you when you're sick. Forward doctors use cutting edge technology to identify and address any underlying health issues you might have BEFORE THEY BECOME A problem. That's what long-term health is all THAT'S WHAT LONG TERM HEALTH IS ALL about. Being early, not BEING EARLY late. Start living your healthiest life today at go-forward dot com slash w START LIVING YOUR HEALTHYEST LIFE TODAY at go forward dot com slash NYC. That's go forward.com/w That's go forward dot com slash WNYC. Want more radio lab? Now you can get more radio lab on our YouTube channel. Catch up on new episodes, hear classics from our archive. Plus, watch other cool things we did the vast music videos, animations, behind the scenes features, radio lab live shows, meet the team, check out some of our episodeis. discover plenty more stuff you won't find in the podcast feed. Take a look, subscribe, get more radiolab at a youtube dot com slash radiolab pod. Hey, this is Allison from the Center for Investigative Reporting PRX. I've been carrying around a story for decade. I first heard about it on a reporting trip in rural Mississippi. And reminded me so much of growing up as a black kid in the South. It's about how justice in America looks different for different people. Our seven part series, Mississippi Goddamn. The Ballad Billy Joe, is out now. Listen and reveals podcast feed. My name is Keith Nelson, the attorney general for the state of Minnesota. And how should I refer to you? Do people refer to you as AG Anissa? Or like, what what do you like? They Call me me Keith. Alright. Keith? Yeah. Well, Keith, I wanted to talk to you because you're the prosecutor on the most hive profile police case in the country right now. So didnt the case against former officer Derek Chauvin -- No. See here's the problem. I can't really talk about that case. I talked to Keith back in February before the murder trial of Derek tropen even started I talked to Keith back in February before the murder trial of Derek Chopin even started. I have to be worried about his right to a fair trial. Totally understand. And cannot say things to gin up hostility against him I wanna see him convicted on the evidence. And last week, Keith's office did just that. Remember the jury I will now read the verdict says they will appear in the permanent records of the fourth judicial district. State of Minnesota And he wouldn't be able to tell for most of the headlines. BUT THE JURY IN THIS CASE WASN'T ASKED TO CONSIDER WHETHER CHOVEN INTENDED TO KILL GEORGE FORWARD. We're going to count one unintentional, second degree murder while committing a 29 count one. Unintentional second degree murder while committing a felony, we the jury, buy in the defendant guilty. What the jury was instructed to consider was if children intended to assault him and if children caused his death. The charge was felony murder. I wonder when when you're thinking about prosecuting crimes, what do you think the role of intent should be? Intent does matter, but there are lot of things that people do wrong that they don't have the intent for. Say, for example, if somebody is driving by in a car and shoots into a house and they kill somebody, Now they may not have been aiming at that person. They may not even know that person. But what they did is so inherently wrong that even if they did not intend to kill a particular person that they still need to be held responsible for what they didnt. In the case of George Floyd's death, Derek Chauvin has been convicted of felony murder. There were three other officers standing by while children murdered George Floyd. At first, Those officers weren't charged with anything. Then Keith charged those officers with felony murder too. Technically, under the law, they could serve the same amount of time that children will. They'll face trial in the next few months. Well, let Let me just say, and I'm speaking theoretically just say, and I'm speaking theoretically here. The thing is that the state still has to prove that theators and the Betters, in fact, aided and abetted. And just being there is not gonna be enough. You're gonna have to prove that they assisted in the commission of that crime. And then you got the jury might not buy it. They might buy They might buy it. They might not buy it. And so in the case of Derek Chauvin, which I know we can't talk about. Yeah. That really that creates problems for me to talk about that. Yeah. Okay. So I was struggling to understand why Keith used felony murder. This rule that other states were trying to get rid of. Couldn't he have used something else to prosecute these officers? But he just couldn't get into the specifics of this case 29 answer my question. So I called Melissa Redman, a professor of law at the University Georgia. I actually went to law actually went to law school. I was a claims adjuster for Geico, which I also was a claims adjuster for GEICO, which I also loved. My initial thought was the corporate council for GEICO. Oh, wow. She didn't do that. She ended up going into criminal law, spent years as a defense attorney, then as a prosecutor, and it turns out that she prosecuted a case a lot like Derek Chauvin's back in twenty fourteen. Before the death of George Floyd, before Michael Brown, before Eric Garner, there was Gregory Towns. How did it all start? It started with a domestic balance call. A woman in the East Point suburb of Atlanta called nine eleven, saying her boyfriend assaulted her. Two minutes later, two police officers showed up to her townhouse complex. And see a man who fits the description of her boyfriend. Gregory, as the police were arriving, he was leaving on foot they say, hey, we got a call about as a message dispute. He kind of backs away and then he takes off running. Gregory towns, disappeared into the woods Towns disappeared into the woods nearby. They both start chasing him at first. One turns back. 29 secure the police car. The officer chasing him finally corners him in the woods. And there he's kind of worn out and tired and on the ground. I think at some point he rips and falls and says, okay, you got me, but couldn't walk. The officer handcuffs him and calls for backup. That's when sergeant Marcus Eberhard and corporal Howard Weems junior arrived on the scene. They tried to get him to get up and move, and basically kept saying, I can't breathe, just let me rest. And they started using the tasers as a cattle prod to get them to get up and walk. He would get up and walk a few steps and then collapse again. Again, saying, you know, just give me a minute. I'm tired. Just just give me a ofThe. officers fired their tasers fourteen times. They were ready to get out of the woods and they were annoyed and they just kept prodding him and prodding him with these tazers until his heart came up. What did you make ofThe your chances to get a conviction based on the facts of the case? Well, very difficult because it wasn't a shooting case. It wasn't a case where he was beaten. You know, he had underlying health issues that made him susceptible to his hard giving out from the repeated stimulation from the tasing. Tasers At the time in 2014 warrant marketed as lethal the time in twenty fourteen weren't marketed as lethal weapons. So didnt the officers intend to kill the man with tasers? Maybe not. But he did die as a result of their actions. So is that murder? And if so, what kind? Felonymurder is going to be the only option you have in prosecuting a police officer for conduct that results in a death. You're very unlikely to convince the jury that any officer intentionally set out in their actions to take the life of a civilian. So being able to approve that, they intended to put their knee on the neck of George Florida. They intended to commit whatever underlying felony existed. And that felony resulted in the death of someone is a much easier case to prove. It fits the facts of the case. With felony murder, Melissa needed to prove that the officers intended not to kill, but to commit aggravated assault. In this case, by tasing even so her odds of conviction were slim. This is very very rare. It was kind of like, you know, this is we may not get a conviction, but if there is a case, this is the case. But you can't tell someone you know, thirteen, fourteen times when they're handcuffed on the ground, just asking you to give them a minute to catch their breath. Like, you can't not 29 prosecute that case? I remember the family just wanting the officers to acknowledge that they did something wrong, that this son and his father was no longer with us because of what they didnt, and that how unnecessary it was like, all they had to do was wait and be a little bit patient, and mister Tass will still be alive. And I think it was a senselessness of it. Like, this didn't have to happen that ofThe stuck with us during the entire trial. After a two week trial, the jury this case decided that the sergeant was and that's it. And how did you feel when when when they said that you got a conviction? I was glad for the family. I mean, you're never really happy because it really doesn't change the fact that this person is no longer with us, but you do hope it changes something. You know, you hope it sends a message of what's acceptable and what's not. And you hope that you've prevented another death by another police officer. Unfortunately, there I think there were two or three other deaths from tasers in Georgia after this case, so we didn't really accomplish that. But if you believe that people who commit crimes 29 be killed responsible for their actions, then that's really ofThe outcome you want is a jury saying, yes, these individuals are responsible for the death and miss a town. And they need to be punished for that. Sergeant Eberhard would later be sentenced to life in prison. The other officer, his subordinate, Weems, was acquitted of felony murder charge and ended up with an eighteen month prison sentence for involuntary manslaughter. I understand that we need to hold police I understand that we need to hold police accountable. Believe me. I understand that. But we can't and use this terrible rule to do So. Kate Chatfield, again, who fought the felony murder rule in California, Kate Chapman Field again, who fought the felony murder rule in California. I think the use of the felony murder rule is wrong. It's a shortcut to get a murder conviction. I think it's wrong whether it's used against an officer or against anybody. She says Derek Chovan could not have been charged with felony murder in California, even before the She says Derek Chauvin could not have been charged with felony murder in California even before the reform. She says there are other routes to convict him in her state. Like he could have been charged with second degree murder. They could have taken the extra step to show children had conscious disregard for human life or they could have charged him with intentional murder by propping up this terrible rule. However, we do it. We have to understand. This rule is primarily used against black people and people of color. And the effects of this law have been and will continue to be borne by young people of color in this country. So if the felony murder rule were the only way to effectively prosecute police officers who kill would you still not use it? I just can't accept that. I mean, that's just like a nod. That's a false question. I'm sorry. It's just like, it's not the only just like, it's not the only way. It's a lazy prosecutors way to get to murder. And it's like, no, show the intent to kill because you have plenty of evidence that there is an intent to kill. You know, and and show that to the jury. AND IF THE JURY DECIDES, YEAH, HE INTENDED TO KILL HIM AFTER LIKE THE PROSECUTOR 29 PRESENT, THAT'S MURDER. And I'm not saying that these officers can't be charged with murder. I just wanna see the felony murder rule, you know, abolished instop. I will say this about the felony murder rule. It is an important tool, but there are situations where it's not appropriate and where it does seem really unfair. I asked Keith about this and he agreed that there is a kind of case where the felony murder rule results in an asked Keith about this. He agreed that there is a kind of case where the felony murder rule results in an injustice. I mean, I've seen a situation where a man grabs a female partner, his partner, and says come with me, situations like You were there In the commission of a felony, a robbery, and somebody was killed, even though you didn't do it, you were the commission of a felony or robbery, and somebody was killed even though you didn't do it. You were accomplished and you assisted in the commission of that offense. That seems to be a manifest on justice to me. Both Keith and Melissa aren't opposed to reform, limiting who can be charged with felony murder or changing guidelines for sentencing those people but it's not necessarily clear where the line would be drawn. Between someone like Anissa and someone like Chovin or the officers who stood by while Choban murdered George Floyd. Let Let me tell you a justice tell you, adjust the system. We're not a justice system, but we're trying to be We're not adjust the system, but we're trying to be one. And what that means is that justice should have mercy in there too. It should factor in shades of comparability. So what do you say to people who say, like, the felony murder rule is basically a lazy way for prosecutors to get a a conviction? Well, I guess, to those people, what I would say is if somebody comes to me with a good way to reform felony murder rule to make it work as it should, then I think that that's fine. If somebody wants to just say it should never Somebody wants to just say it should never exist. I guess I don't agree with them on that one. But, I mean, it's this ever evolving thing, but we have this society that has a lot of injustice in it, and people still need some justice, so we 29 keep on trying till we get it right. I admire your, your hope in the admire your hope in the system from Keith. Well, again, but let me just say this. I also think saying everything sucks. Nothing's right. Everybody's crooked. I think that's sort ofThe out 29 though. Right? Totally. I mean, if somebody was in MLK in nineteen fifty and said, dude, what do you what do you lead in this protest for man? This, you know, it's how we've always had racism, slavery, Jim Crow, and we're always gonna have it. So you were just wasting your so you were just wasting time. You're naive. You believe in the system. And I'm hip and cool and aware and I'm woke. And I don't believe in it, it. So I'm not going to waste my time trying to reform I'm not gonna waste my time trying to reform anything. I'm not on that team. Don't see the world that way. And, Lisa, are you I I hear, like, water running in the background. Are you near with a lot of fish tank? Yeah. My fish tank. Oh, your fish tank. Yeah. What kind of fish do you have? Okay. I have a a albino Oscar. Mhmm. A African fin she got stripes on it. How big are they? Are they getting big? Yeah. So if you could take like a little step away from the fish tank, I'm here, you sounded like you were like in a you could take, like, a little step away from the fish tank. I'm here. You sounded like you were, like, in a Wonderful. Wonderful. Cool. Thank Thank you. So how, how do you think back now on, on everything that happened to So How do you think back now on on everything that happened to you? I look back like I shouldn't have got all that time, but it helped looked back, like, I shouldn't have got all that time, but it helped me. Cause I learned a lot, you know, as I was there, I started better in myself and learning a lot of things about me because I learned a lot. You know? As I was there, I started bettering myself and learning a lot of things about myself. You know, like my behavior where it come from, I took this group, this call, why do we do the things that we do? That group was really, really deep. It doesn't take you back all the way to your childhood. It was like a psychology class. It talked about depression, stress. Things that happened to me. And, you know, like, how you suppress ofThe. It's suppressed. And it's not good because when you suppress your ego, It's like anger. You make the wrong decisions when you're angry, instead of thinking things through. I was foolish. I was foolish. I really was foolish because I allowed my foolish behavior to put me in a position where somebody else got hurt. And I just know that's not my character. Like, I don't I don't cadence people getting killed or harmed or anything like that. Because my sister lost her life being in the streets. But another thing I wanted to ask you about is that the felony murder rule is actually being used in the case of George Floyd to prosecute police officers who killed unarmed thing I wanted to ask you about is that the felony murder rule is actually being used in the case of George Floyd. To prosecute police officers who killed unarmed civilians. What do you think about that? Oh, you talking about the guy. Well, I've seen that on the news. That was horrible. It's bullshit. Because to me, he intend on killing him. Because all he had to do was handcuffing. me. He didn't have to do all that extra shit, Didnt have to do all that extra shit. But but what about the officer who's standing by? Yeah. They could've prevented it. It could have stopped their could've stopped their partner. That didn't even try. Is it different when it's applied to police? I'm gonna say this. Police are human too. I just feel like we should be fair. It should be fair all around the board. As at the end of the day. God just only see his people. This episode was produced by Julia Longoria and me Alvin Malath, with editing by Catherine Wells, fact check by Well Gordon, Sound Design by David Herrman. Music by T. C. Morcils. Special thanks to Adam Harris and John Swannsberg. The team also includes Gabriel Burberry, Emily Boutain, Natalia Ramirez, Tracy Didnt, and Matt Colette. This episode is part of Atlantic's Project, The Cycle, which is supported by Didnt from the John Dee and Katherine team MacArthur Foundation's safety and justice challenge. You can find Lara Baselon's full article, what makes murderer at our website, WWW dot Atlantics dot com slash experiment. And if you appreciated this week's episode, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. The experiment is a coproduction of Atlantic and WNYC 29. Thanks for listening. Want more radiolab? Now you can get more radiolab on our YouTube channel. Catch up on new episodes, hear classics from our archive, plus watch other cool things we did in past, music videos, animations, behind the scenes features, radio lab live shows, meet the team, check out some of our favorite plus discover plenty more stuff you won't find the podcast feed. Take a look, subscribe, get more video lab at youtube dot comradiolab pod.