8:00

to start making decisions about things

8:02

that we don't normally have to

8:04

think about. And that takes energy

8:07

and add to that the

8:09

uncertainty about how to keep

8:11

ourselves safe, what

8:14

is a reasonable risk and what's

8:16

not, how do we see

8:20

people losing their jobs. People who I

8:22

would never have predicted losing their jobs

8:25

have done so. And so all of

8:27

us have this generalized

8:29

uncertainty that we're still dealing

8:31

with, even if we solve

8:34

the habit problem. And

8:36

the habit problem is just going to

8:38

slow us down. And that's what I

8:40

would tell people at the beginning of

8:43

the pandemic, don't expect as much for

8:45

yourself as you

8:47

normally produce, because you have

8:49

to make so many decisions.

8:52

But in a way, it's also

8:54

kind of liberating because you

8:57

might find a new

9:01

brand of coffee that you actually

9:03

like better than Starbucks,

9:05

the one that you tried

9:07

obviously didn't work. But once

9:09

we're removed from our habits

9:12

and are making decisions, sometimes

9:15

we just

9:17

end up finding things that work

9:19

better. So I hope that's true

9:21

for most of your audience, that

9:23

they found a few things that

9:26

are actually making their life better. Yeah,

9:29

absolutely. And I've, speaking like you

9:31

were saying about the benefits that

9:33

can come from it, looking for

9:35

that silver lining, because I

9:38

work with business clients a lot, saying,

9:40

this is such an opportunity that

9:42

you will potentially never have again

9:44

in your business. Everyone's status quo

9:47

has been disrupted in a way

9:49

that they're needing to look for

9:51

stuff where they normally wouldn't. And

9:53

so if you can kind of sneak

9:56

in and fill a gap where there wouldn't have

9:58

even been any sort of awareness. There's

10:01

so much opportunity for companies

10:04

to gain new customers and

10:06

really fill needs people didn't have before. So

10:09

I think again that, but it all

10:11

starts with that base of habits, not being able to

10:13

run anymore. So people are looking for new partners and

10:15

companies to use. Yeah,

10:22

one of the best examples of that

10:25

is Italians starting

10:28

to use Amazon

10:30

the way the rest of the world

10:32

does. They

10:34

had a set up of small

10:36

villages, people went out and shopped

10:38

every day. Nobody was ordering stuff

10:40

online. But now

10:43

with the pandemic, they're being forced

10:45

to do something different. And

10:47

they've realized now, it is really

10:49

so much more convenient and efficient to

10:52

get stuff delivered. You don't

10:54

get to choose and you don't see other

10:56

people at the market. So there are downsides,

10:58

but they're experiencing some of the upsides and

11:00

that. And Amazon

11:02

is very good at

11:05

being nimble and taking advantage of

11:07

the sorts of opportunities. Yeah,

11:09

hopefully it doesn't change that too much.

11:12

Italy is one of my all time

11:14

favorite places. And

11:16

I love strolling. I did three months

11:19

in Rome in college. And so the

11:22

nostalgia that I have for that,

11:24

I love walking through the streets, all

11:26

the little shops and everything. So hopefully

11:28

that won't change too much. Hopefully

11:30

they'll keep what is

11:32

good about it and then

11:35

order online for things that they

11:38

wouldn't maybe normally have access to. Absolutely.

11:41

Good balance so that it

11:43

is useful for them and

11:46

still paying homage to the

11:48

heritage of all of what

11:50

they've done over time. Wonderful

11:52

lifestyle. Yeah. Well,

11:55

I want to talk a bit

11:57

about, you used several running examples.

11:59

examples in the book. And

12:02

I relate to that

12:04

a lot. And one of the things that I

12:06

found so telling

12:08

and fascinating was that

12:10

for people who have running as a habit already, there

12:16

were different cues and maybe primes that you're able

12:18

to put in for them that worked that didn't

12:20

work for those that were trying to start the

12:22

habit. Can you talk a little bit about that?

12:25

Yeah, so this

12:27

tells us something about how

12:30

habits work. And

12:32

what we found is that for

12:34

habitual runners, the

12:36

place where they typically ran

12:39

activated thoughts of running. And

12:42

we found in other research

12:44

that those thoughts are

12:47

what perpetuate behavior. Most

12:50

of the time, we just act on

12:52

whatever thought is in mind. We

12:55

can make decisions not to but

12:57

decision making is effortful. People are

12:59

busy. Acting on the thought

13:01

in mind is quick and efficient, particularly

13:03

if it's something that you've

13:06

practiced a lot in the past, like

13:08

a running habit, and you know how

13:10

to do it. So running,

13:15

if you're a habitual runner, is

13:18

closely tied in your mind to the

13:20

context where you typically run. This

13:23

study was conducted at Duke

13:25

University, and most of

13:27

the runners ran in Duke Forest.

13:30

So we would prime them or bring

13:32

to mind concepts of Duke Forest. And

13:35

they were very fast then to

13:39

think of running and jogging.

13:42

What was so interesting to us

13:45

is that the

13:47

goals people reported for

13:50

running, and people

13:52

all have habitual runners have

13:55

goals, fitness goals, time goals.

13:58

They have relaxation, weight

14:01

control, all of those are

14:03

important goals. When we primed

14:05

those or brought those to mind, running

14:08

didn't follow. So that's

14:11

what we need by habit

14:13

automaticity, is that the

14:15

context in which you typically perform

14:17

a behavior is

14:19

the one that can trigger thoughts of

14:21

that behavior. Just like me standing in

14:24

front of my coffee maker first thing

14:26

in the morning primes thoughts

14:28

of what do you do next? Well,

14:30

you start to grind the beans, but

14:33

it primes those thoughts without me having to

14:36

consciously think what am I going

14:38

to do? And that's what we

14:40

found with habitual ramens.

14:44

We also had some people in the study

14:47

who ran more occasionally sort of

14:49

once in a while. The

14:52

context where they ran didn't

14:54

have any effect. For

14:56

those people, the goals

14:58

that they had for running, the reason why they

15:00

got out there, brought thoughts

15:03

of running to mind. So

15:05

weight control, fitness, they immediately

15:07

thought of running. And

15:09

we think it's because for

15:12

people who do something occasionally,

15:14

they're still forced to make

15:16

decisions. What am I going to do

15:18

today? They might really have to go running. And

15:21

so they think of the goal and then

15:23

that's what leads them to running. If

15:25

they can convince themselves that goal is

15:27

not very important today, then they don't

15:29

go running. So it's

15:31

a very different process for people who

15:34

have habits and people who don't. Context

15:38

activates habits and we usually just

15:40

act on those habits in mind.

15:44

Goals are what drive

15:46

our more occasional behaviors. Things that we

15:48

have to think about, make

15:50

a decision to do. So is

15:52

there some sort of a hidden

15:54

trick or thought process

15:56

in there? When I was reading

15:59

it as someone who has had a

16:01

running habit formed before and

16:03

then was unfortunately in a car accident that made

16:05

it so I couldn't run for a very long

16:07

time and you're trying to bring it back and

16:10

now it's back in the goal mindset

16:13

right like well my goal

16:15

of healthy lifestyle doesn't

16:18

exceed my goal of not

16:20

getting rained on here in Seattle

16:23

or whatever that is right so

16:25

is there something as far as

16:27

thinking more about

16:29

the goals at the

16:32

very beginning and making that essentially

16:34

top of mind to help

16:36

form it into a habit or running in

16:38

the same place at the

16:40

same time more consciously building it

16:42

into a habit for yourself and

16:45

trying to nudge those triggers along

16:47

is there any way to do that? Yes,

16:50

yeah so habits form from

16:52

repetition doing something in

16:54

the same way over

16:56

and over and that's

16:59

when your brain starts to pick up habit

17:01

memories it starts to learn habit memories so

17:03

there are a couple of things you can

17:05

do to make that more likely one

17:08

is obviously do it in the same

17:10

way every time and if

17:12

you do that you're going to be

17:15

more likely to form a habit but

17:18

you also want to be able to

17:20

repeat it regularly

17:23

and there are a couple of

17:25

tricks to repetition one

17:27

is which is much more

17:30

likely to repeat behaviors that

17:32

we find rewarding and

17:35

rewards don't have to be money this is not economic

17:38

incentives rewards can be things

17:40

like whoa I'm

17:42

proud of myself I'm back to

17:44

an eight-minute mile that's

17:47

what I was doing before I

17:49

was not

17:53

even close but I get

17:56

it so so that kind of thing or you

17:59

could and try on some clothes that you

18:01

haven't been able to wear for a while

18:03

and then think, oh, I'm getting back to

18:06

my former self. All

18:08

of those things are rewards that

18:11

you experience

18:14

when you run, and

18:16

that makes it more likely

18:19

you will continue to do so. For

18:22

you in Seattle, it might

18:24

take buying some really fancy

18:27

rain clothes that you

18:29

really like to wear and that are

18:31

rewarding to wear and that keep you

18:33

dry and not too sweaty as you

18:36

work out. So

18:39

those rewards are really important. There's

18:41

another thing though that

18:44

research has shown is really

18:46

helpful, and that

18:49

is to find situations

18:53

that make it easy for you to

18:55

run. And that just kind

18:57

of sounds obvious, wrong, you know, you can do

18:59

something more if it's easier, but you

19:02

can actually engineer that. So

19:05

you can take your running clothes and put them in a

19:07

bag and put them in

19:09

your car or put your

19:12

running shoes if you go from home, put your

19:14

running shoes by the front door. You

19:16

can sleep in your running clothes even. So

19:20

make it more likely that you

19:22

will do it. And I have

19:26

an older son who is a highly

19:29

motivated bike racer. He is just

19:31

so committed to this. But

19:34

motivation is not enough. He

19:37

still has to set

19:39

up his environment to make it more

19:42

likely that he will train. Pre-COVID,

19:45

he would come home from work and

19:47

there would be the couch and

19:50

there would be his bike trainer on the side and

19:52

he would think, oh, maybe

19:55

I'll sit on the couch for a bit. We

19:57

all know where that's going. So, because he was tired.

20:00

was the end of the day, he'd been

20:02

at work. So what he

20:04

learned to do is put his bike trainer

20:06

in the middle of his living room, in

20:09

front of the couch, so that he would

20:11

actually have to move it in order to

20:13

sit on the couch. And he found that by

20:16

making it easier for

20:18

him to work out and harder to do

20:20

anything else, he was

20:23

much more likely to keep

20:25

his training schedule. And

20:27

all of your business listeners

20:29

already know this, right,

20:32

that for retailers

20:36

in stores, there's a saying, I

20:39

level is by level. What

20:42

you're doing is you're making it

20:45

easy for people to buy things

20:48

on a certain shelf. And

20:51

at least in the wine

20:53

section of my grocery store, all

20:56

of the cheap wines are way down the bottom

20:58

that you have to reach for. The

21:01

more expensive wines are I level

21:03

and slightly above because that's where

21:05

people look in a grocery store.

21:08

And shoppers are influenced by that.

21:11

But that's sort of a, that's

21:13

a marketing technique that

21:16

we can apply in our own lives

21:18

to achieve our own personal goals. Make

21:21

it easy. There's a lot

21:23

of science behind this. Yeah,

21:25

absolutely. I had Roger Julie on the

21:28

show. It's been a year

21:30

now, I think, almost exactly, probably for

21:32

when these two come out, but talking

21:34

about his book, Friction, and in that

21:36

reducing friction and how much easier that

21:39

can make everything in

21:41

the buying process and just in

21:43

life in general. And I'm sure

21:45

for the running

21:47

habit, because, you know, all habits

21:49

are essentially formed on

21:51

the same basis of action,

21:55

right? Yes, you have to do

21:57

something. The running habit, the coffee

21:59

habit, the checking my

22:01

email first thing in the morning habit

22:03

and feeling like all everything gets sort

22:05

of like sucked into or social media

22:07

or whatever that is if you want

22:09

to be more productive there are some

22:11

things that you can do with thinking

22:14

about habits do you have

22:16

some tips about any of that

22:19

space yeah along

22:21

with the idea of making

22:24

the desired behavior easier you

22:26

want to make the things that are troubling

22:29

you that are problematic more difficult the

22:32

most sort of graphic demonstration

22:34

of this was a study done with

22:36

two bowls of food one

22:39

had popcorn buttered

22:41

popcorn the other had apple

22:43

slices when the apple slices

22:46

were right in front of participants and

22:48

the popcorn was a reach away they

22:51

consumed 50 calories on

22:54

average when the popcorn

22:56

was close by and the apple

22:58

slices were reached away they

23:00

ate three times more calories

23:02

and this is just as

23:05

a snack in a study and

23:08

they could see both bowls of food so

23:11

it's not like you can see them differentially

23:14

that they're all there it's

23:17

just that simple difference in ease

23:20

the popcorn put the high calories

23:23

calorie food away from you

23:27

and it has an effect on what you

23:29

consume again it

23:31

sounds too simple but

23:33

oh my gosh it's not yeah

23:37

but that's where you have to get to the

23:39

base the motivation what the

23:41

brain is trying to get why

23:43

you have the habit in any

23:45

given case it's not the simple

23:47

of like well Netflix is

23:50

just too enticing there's nothing I

23:52

can do to not binge watch

23:54

it but you know if you say

23:56

well why am I doing

23:58

that what's my brain trying to accomplish

24:00

and with the new how you know

24:02

really kind of digging in on those

24:05

is how you can fix them. Yeah

24:07

the way I think about it is you

24:10

need to reverse engineer what

24:12

your environment is pushing you to

24:14

do. So there

24:16

was a psychologist, Kurt Lewin, middle

24:19

of the last century who believed

24:22

that we are all

24:24

being influenced by forces

24:26

around us as well

24:28

as forces in our head. But

24:30

he believed in the forces around

24:33

us unlike many psychologists and

24:35

he thought that our behavior was a

24:37

product of both driving forces that made

24:39

us do things and

24:41

resisting forces that stopped. So

24:44

reverse engineering those forces in

24:46

your environment can be really

24:49

powerful. As an

24:51

example there's a study done

24:54

continuing our exercise theme. There

24:56

was a study done of

24:58

how far people traveled to

25:00

pay fitness centers and

25:03

this was done over two months

25:05

with hundreds of thousands of cell

25:07

phones, they're tracking cell phones. And

25:11

what researchers discovered

25:14

is that if you

25:16

travel 5.1 miles to your

25:18

gym then you're likely to

25:21

go once a month. But

25:23

if you travel three and a

25:25

half miles to the gym you're

25:28

likely to go five times a

25:30

month on average. So that's simple

25:32

distance. About one and a half

25:34

miles is the difference between

25:36

somebody who has an exercise habit and somebody

25:39

who doesn't. And what it indicates

25:41

is that if

25:43

you can incorporate the desired

25:46

behaviors like going to the

25:48

gym into your daily routine,

25:51

if you can make it easy, I go to work,

25:53

I go to the gym, that's on my way home,

25:56

and then I go home. It's so

25:58

much easier to actually really get

26:00

yourself to do these things. Friction

26:03

is real, you know, those

26:05

resistant forces are real,

26:07

but we can reverse engineer them.

26:10

Yeah. Well, and then I like that last

26:12

point you made there too, being that the,

26:15

even if there's not a gym that's within three

26:17

and a half miles of your house, maybe there

26:20

is one that's within three and a half miles

26:22

of your work. And so you can build the

26:24

habit off of that location that you stop at

26:26

or where you drop off the

26:28

kids at school or, you know, something that

26:30

you can make it part of a routine,

26:32

but still close enough and knowing that five

26:35

miles is too far or 5.1. Yes.

26:38

You're just not likely to go.

26:40

I mean, it adds to the

26:42

time. It adds to the castle.

26:45

Anything that adds to hassle juices

26:48

behavior and Netflix, you

26:51

know, you can actually disable

26:53

the continued play. And

26:56

that's where, no, don't tell me. So

27:01

that you can gain control of

27:03

it back again, again, reverse engineering

27:06

to try to gain control over the things that

27:08

are causing you problems for

27:10

some people that won't be a problem. But if

27:12

it is one for you, you can think through

27:14

how to do it. Right? Yeah.

27:16

No, I love that. We, uh, so near

27:18

et al has also been on the show.

27:20

And so for everybody who hasn't already listened

27:22

to that episode on Indestractable, you'd want to

27:24

check that one out. There's going to be

27:27

lots of links in the show notes to

27:29

stuff we've been talking about for sure. Wendy,

27:32

I want to give you a chance. I promised you,

27:34

or, you know, primed you with

27:36

knowing that I like to ask, you

27:38

know, if, if there are studies

27:41

you haven't really talked about much, you love that

27:43

you've worked on that either didn't make it in

27:45

the book or just don't come up all that

27:47

often that you wish you could talk about. Do

27:50

you have any that you would

27:52

like to share with the audience of

27:54

some favorite studies or insights or tidbits?

27:58

Yes. Every research. always has a

28:00

favorite study. And for most

28:03

of us, it's the one we're currently working

28:05

on. Yeah. So this

28:07

particular project is under review, so

28:10

it really hasn't been published at

28:12

all. But it's with social media.

28:16

Because so many people, you hear

28:19

complaints about how social media is manipulating

28:21

us, it's forming habits that we don't

28:23

necessarily want, takes up

28:26

huge amounts of our time, all of those things

28:28

are true. We went through

28:30

and analyzed all of the habit-forming

28:33

aspects of social media,

28:36

even the scroll that

28:38

you see has a way

28:41

of heightening the reward for

28:44

certain posts. So you get one

28:46

post that's really interesting, and then

28:48

you get 10 others

28:50

that are just, and you

28:53

just scroll through them. But

28:55

the scroll allows you to

28:58

experience that sort of unexpected,

29:00

inconsistent reward. So

29:03

your social media becomes

29:05

kind of like a slot machine. Right.

29:09

For people who gamble that there's

29:11

an unexpected reward, and we know

29:13

that that's highly addictive, and

29:16

it's set up on purpose. But

29:18

the two, so it

29:20

forms habits very quickly, given how

29:23

it's structured. And that's just one

29:25

example. But we show

29:27

two things in the paper. One

29:30

is that the

29:32

success of social media

29:34

sites depends on habitual

29:36

users. So it's the

29:39

habitual users that make them successful.

29:41

In fact, if people

29:43

use social media only occasionally, they

29:45

are negatively related to revenue. So

29:47

if you have a social media

29:50

site that people are using only

29:52

occasionally, they're not looking on the

29:54

links and other sorts of things

29:56

that generate revenue. And they're

29:59

actually a drag. on the system. So

30:02

habits are central to

30:04

that particular industry. So

30:06

that's one thing we show is

30:09

that revenue is closely tied to

30:11

habitual use. And that's

30:13

true probably in more industries than

30:15

we're aware of because we haven't

30:18

really looked at those

30:21

data in much detail.

30:24

But I suggest your audience does

30:26

because I think they'll be surprised.

30:28

It suggests very different ways of

30:30

handling a particular

30:32

customer group consumer. habitual

30:36

users respond very differently than

30:38

non habitual users. And

30:41

we show that in a study

30:43

of Facebook. Facebook

30:45

changed its posting display

30:48

in 2008. And

30:50

we have data on how

30:52

that affected use. Facebook

30:55

did that to get people

30:57

to post more. And that was

31:00

true in general, it did get people to

31:02

post more. But it didn't get the habitual

31:04

posters to post more. Because

31:07

what it did is it

31:09

changed the cues that they

31:11

were responding to. And

31:13

they actually posted less after

31:16

the change than they did before. So

31:19

back then in 2008,

31:22

they had a big number of

31:24

occasional users. And those occasional users

31:26

were more likely to become regular

31:28

users with the change. But

31:31

it disrupted the habitual posters. So you

31:33

have to be careful as

31:36

a marketer that you're not

31:40

creating by improving a product that

31:43

you're not creating a problem for

31:45

people who use a habitual one.

31:48

And probably the best known

31:50

example of this is

31:52

with Tropicana. Tropicana

31:57

changed their the design

31:59

of their arts using

36:00

it, but I did an

36:02

episode earlier in the year about Peloton. And

36:04

one of the things I really like about

36:06

the Peloton model, I don't know how much

36:09

you're familiar with, with them, but

36:11

because they use the network effect

36:14

and it's from home for

36:16

most people, there actually

36:18

is a benefit for them of people

36:20

building the habit and sticking with it

36:22

and continuing to use what

36:25

they have. So I really love that

36:27

it turns that traditional fitness

36:29

gym membership, anti-habit

36:32

setup and making it about

36:34

helping people to have healthier

36:36

habits. And that ties

36:39

in with their revenue. Yeah,

36:41

that's a, it's an interesting

36:44

perspective because one of

36:47

the things I talk about in the book is

36:50

weight watchers and

36:55

weight loss programs in general,

36:58

there's now there's noon that

37:01

claims to form new habits. Those

37:05

programs don't benefit from

37:07

you actually losing weight and keeping

37:09

it off. Mm-hmm. Their

37:11

model is you lose

37:14

weight, put it back

37:16

on again, and you come back and pay

37:18

the program again, they have

37:20

a lot of repeat customers and

37:23

unfortunately a lot of

37:25

disillusioned customers as well. So

37:28

it's a case in which the business model

37:30

is not really well tied to the consumer,

37:33

the reasons that consumers

37:35

use it. Yeah. It's

37:39

interesting to think through.

37:42

I really appreciate that as we have

37:44

more behavioral science, more understanding

37:46

of the brain of habits from

37:48

your work and so many others

37:50

and knowing I've talked to Julie

37:53

O'Brien who's now head of behavioral

37:55

science at WW formerly weight

37:57

watchers and know they want. to

38:00

be able to have a different model,

38:02

but it just doesn't necessarily fit with

38:04

what people do. And

38:07

so hopefully as we're getting some

38:09

of those behavioral scientists, behavioral economists

38:12

into those industries, be

38:14

able to, you know, crack the

38:16

code of what's actually happening with

38:18

habits. And so more can be

38:20

on the good habits tied with

38:22

revenues and, you know, good companies

38:24

doing great work. That would

38:27

be nice. Yeah. Yes. Align

38:30

consumers goals with company

38:33

goals. Yeah. I

38:36

think a lot are doing that these days and

38:38

hopefully, hopefully more. So

38:41

is there anything that you feel that

38:43

we've missed? We've obviously talked quite a

38:46

bit about examples from good habits, bad

38:48

habits. There will be a link of

38:50

course in the show notes for people

38:53

to check that out. And

38:55

I will give you of course an opportunity to

38:57

share more ways to learn from

39:00

you and get in contact. But

39:02

are there any questions you wish I had

39:04

asked or that you think are really important

39:06

for the audience to know about before we

39:08

wrap up? There's one

39:11

insight that people should take home

39:13

from studying habits. And

39:16

that is if you want

39:18

to change your behavior, the

39:21

way you typically go about it is

39:24

not the most effective. We

39:28

focus on our conscious decision making

39:30

self while our habits run off,

39:33

sort of in the background without

39:35

us realizing that they're there. And

39:39

there's a study that illustrates this

39:41

really well, I think the issue

39:43

of the different approaches you can

39:45

take. And it was a

39:47

study to try and get

39:49

people in a four story office

39:51

building to use the stairs

39:54

more and to

39:56

put these in the elevator. So the

39:58

researchers started off doing just what we wanted to do. I

44:00

call, thoughtful sludge, is

44:02

the one where they slowed down the elevator

44:04

doors by 26 seconds,

44:06

and people started to naturally take

44:09

the stairs. These were

44:11

people who had likely intended to take

44:13

the stairs, who knew logically it was

44:15

better for them when they were in

44:17

a cold state. But in the moment,

44:19

the elevator is just so easy and

44:22

convenient. It's easy to say

44:24

you'll take the stairs next time, but when

44:26

the doors take what feels like an eternity,

44:29

it's a simple nudge to take

44:31

those stairs now and can quickly

44:33

form a new habit. As

44:36

you consider habits for yourself, your

44:38

team, and your customers, remember the

44:40

default, an episode I just refreshed,

44:43

and what their status quo is.

44:46

Where's the reward? What's the

44:48

context? And what's easy and

44:50

convenient? Where do you fit in? And how

44:52

can you make the good habits easier and

44:54

the bad ones harder? Keep

44:57

all this in mind and get

44:59

ready for this upcoming Friday's episode

45:01

with Scott H. Young, who will

45:03

be here to talk about his

45:05

new book, Get Better at Anything.

45:08

You definitely don't want to miss this

45:10

one, so if you aren't already subscribed

45:12

to the Brainy Business Podcast, set up

45:14

a good habitual queue by doing so

45:17

now to ensure you never miss an

45:19

episode, including that one. There

45:22

is, of course, a link in the show

45:24

notes to make it easy, along with links

45:26

to my top related past episodes and books,

45:28

like Good Habits, Bad Habits, and

45:31

more. It's all waiting for

45:33

you in the app you're listening to

45:35

and at thebrainybusiness.com slash 428. And

45:40

just like that, episode 428 with Dr. Wendy Wood is done.

45:45

Join me Friday for a brand new

45:48

episode with Scott H. Young to discuss

45:50

his book, Get Better at Anything. It's

45:53

going to be a lot of fun. You don't want to

45:55

miss it. Until then, thanks

45:57

again for listening and learning with me. And

46:00

remember to be thoughtful.

46:07

Thank you for listening to the Brainy Business

46:09

Podcast. Melina offers virtual

46:11

strategy sessions, workshops, and other

46:13

services to help businesses be

46:15

more brain-friendly. For more

46:18

free resources, visit thebrainybusiness.com.