0:01

Hi, my name is John Kim. I'm a therapist who

0:04

went through his own rebirth many years ago, and

0:06

I've been documenting my journey ever since,

0:08

sharing my life lessons and revelations. I

0:10

believe in casual overclinical with you instead

0:12

of at you. I come

0:15

unrehearsed on purpose because

0:17

self-help doesn't have to be so complicated. Today's

0:22

episode is all Vanessa

0:24

Bennett, my partner who specializes

0:27

in codependency, which I think

0:29

is a foundational topic, and

0:31

this is her lecture

0:34

from one of the retreats we ran. It's

0:36

going to be a series, so look

0:39

out for the other episodes.

0:43

It's, I think,

0:45

imperative. Codependency

0:48

is imperative to understand when it

0:50

comes to not just your romantic

0:52

relationships but all your relationships. So

0:55

here's Vanessa Bennett. So

0:58

I want to go into what

1:01

I call my laundry list

1:03

of codependent tendencies, and this is my bad. I was

1:06

actually going to print you all a

1:08

piece of paper for you to have that, and I will. I'll give it

1:10

to you guys, but I don't have it with me. So I'll

1:12

go slow through these, because usually I've got a list and

1:15

you can actually just look at it. But I go through

1:17

this laundry list. It's not exhaustive. I'm constantly

1:19

adding to it. Can you tap this

1:21

down? This is codependency work. This

1:25

is a lot of codependency work. All

1:28

right, so let's, we'll just start at the top. So lack

1:31

of relationship with self or low self-worth.

1:33

So when I first started doing my codependency

1:35

recovery, I remember the very first thing my

1:37

first therapist said to me when she was

1:39

talking about like low self-esteem or

1:41

low self-worth, and I was like, what

1:43

are you talking about? Like I work in

1:45

advertising. I'm extroverted. I have so many friends.

1:47

I have all this support. Like I have

1:50

all these amazing relationships, and she's like, you're

1:52

misunderstanding what I'm talking about. Well,

1:54

I'm not talking about, are you extroverted? Do you

1:56

have a good community? I'm talking about, do you

1:58

have a relationship with your self? self? Do

2:01

you know who the fuck you are?

2:03

Like, do you have a strong sense

2:05

of inner understanding, inner knowledge, inner love,

2:08

inner respect, right? Capital S self. That's

2:10

why I keep saying that. Right? And

2:12

I was like, I don't

2:15

know. I guess I've never thought about that.

2:17

Right? So we're not necessarily when I say

2:19

that stuff, this idea of I say self

2:21

understanding, self knowledge, right?

2:24

Some of us are going to be on

2:26

different points on that spectrum. But for sure,

2:29

a kickoff point for codependent ways of relating

2:31

is not having a solid sense of self

2:33

understanding, self love, self knowledge, right? Constant

2:37

state of denial. So the

2:39

thing about codependency, which is interesting, is

2:41

that you have to have a certain

2:44

amount of denial for the behaviors

2:47

to continue. Okay, so

2:50

it's one of those things that's like when once

2:52

you know something you can't unknow, right? I could

2:54

be a people pleasing martyr all day until somebody

2:56

like in therapy called me out and then I

2:59

was like, Oh, shit. And now every time I

3:01

do it, because I still do it, but now

3:03

I can't do it without that like outside thing

3:05

going like, you're doing it, you're doing

3:07

it again. Do you know what I mean? So it's a little

3:09

bit of you can't, you can't unknow it once you know it,

3:11

right? Yep. That's

3:16

right. Black and white thinking, emotional

3:19

extremes, compulsiveness. So

3:22

this is the thing about

3:24

codependency. It is a behavioral

3:27

addiction. Codependent behaviors,

3:29

codependent tendencies are

3:31

addictive tendencies. Okay,

3:34

we have a real way of

3:36

kind of demonizing people in our

3:39

culture who have substance abuse issues,

3:41

when in actuality, other

3:43

people and buying shit is just

3:45

as much of an addiction as

3:47

booze, but it's socially

3:49

sanctioned. Right? Here's

3:52

the thing, any addiction, I don't care

3:54

what addiction we're talking about, again, drugs,

3:56

alcohol, porn, sex, shopping,

3:58

again, people, They

4:01

all serve the same purpose, to numb,

4:03

to hide, to soothe anxiety. That's

4:07

what they're there for. There

4:09

are ways that we learn how to make ourselves feel better

4:12

about something when we don't feel good. And

4:15

we don't know what that something is. That's different for everybody, but

4:18

it is for sure a skill that we learn, oh, this

4:20

works. This turns

4:22

it down a little bit. I might need more

4:24

next time, which is what all addictions, we

4:26

need more and more and more to

4:29

keep getting the same response. Codependency is

4:31

the same. So I

4:33

say that to say, we're all in

4:35

it together. We're all

4:37

in some way self-medicating because

4:40

we don't have that solid sense of,

4:42

I know who I am and I'm okay. I'm

4:45

good. I got me. Most

4:50

of us were not raised to embody

4:53

that feeling. Most of our parents

4:55

don't embody that feeling. Most of our grandparents don't embody

4:57

that feeling. Again, look at

4:59

the systems we live within. What I was saying last night, the

5:02

systems that we live within would

5:04

not continue. Capitalism could not continue

5:06

as a structure, unquestioned and unchecked,

5:08

if everybody had a solid sense of self and wasn't

5:11

buying shit all the time to fill

5:13

the void. Do you know what I mean? Like, think about it.

5:18

So an over involvement in someone

5:21

else's life, which underneath

5:23

that is also detaching and not focusing

5:25

on yourself or losing yourself

5:27

in relationships, right? We

5:30

hide from ourselves by

5:32

focusing on other people. I

5:35

don't have to look at myself so long

5:37

as I'm focused on somebody else. I

5:39

don't have to do my own work so long as my fingers

5:42

pointed at the work you need to do. I

5:45

don't have to take 100% accountability for my shit so

5:47

long as I'm saying you're the bad guy in this

5:49

scenario or you're the fucked up one or you need

5:51

help doing this or you, you, you, you. Just

5:53

say hi from ourselves to what? Personal

5:56

accountability. This

6:00

is a lot of my Al-Anon work. I

6:02

am hardcore. Denae

6:04

and I both. It is something that we, like, it's

6:07

the hill that we're willing to die

6:09

on. That personal accountability is the number

6:11

one component to healing. And

6:14

it's hard, and it's icky, and it feels like shit,

6:16

and it makes us feel awful, right? Because

6:18

it activates our ego in all of the ways, right?

6:22

But in every single circumstance, there

6:24

is something that we can own. In

6:27

every single dynamic, there's always something we can

6:29

own, right? Even if,

6:31

and I've heard a lot of pushback on

6:33

this from people, especially people, you know, DV,

6:36

Violet. Now, listen, I'm not saying, like, okay,

6:38

if I'm a child and I'm sexually abused,

6:40

that somehow I have to own something. That's

6:42

not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about

6:44

as an adult in

6:46

a relationship where you are actively contributing

6:48

to a dynamic, right? That's

6:50

what I'm talking about. But even in situations,

6:52

let's say I'm in an abusive dynamic. As

6:54

an adult, I'm in an abusive dynamic for

6:57

10 years. This is not

6:59

to victim blame, but it is to say

7:01

there are two partners co-creating something together. We

7:03

are involved in a dynamic and in a dance

7:06

together. And I have

7:08

seen actually a huge amount of empowerment

7:10

come from people who are even on

7:13

the receiving end of abuse saying,

7:15

here's the way that I contributed to

7:17

this dynamic. Because it's actually,

7:19

it takes away your power when

7:21

you say, that person did all the

7:23

things to me. I'm giving them all

7:25

my power. Even if it's

7:28

hard to say, here's the way that I contributed,

7:30

that actually is an act of reclaiming a sense

7:32

of power and autonomy. And

7:35

like, I have the ability to make a change,

7:37

right? And that's not actually

7:39

the way that a lot of even our current psychology works

7:42

with like abuse as an example, right? Struggling

7:46

with planning and doing for yourself.

7:49

So I call this one, like

7:51

I, I, um, now I'm not

7:54

talking about necessarily like making my dentist appointment every six

7:56

months. Like that shit I'm fine at doing, right? I'm

8:00

good at that, typically. But when

8:03

it comes to things that are nurturing for my

8:05

soul, I'm a lot better at

8:07

making sure everybody else is good than

8:09

making sure that I have a committed

8:11

practice to coming back to self and

8:13

doing things for me, for me. I

8:15

don't need to explain it to

8:17

anybody. It doesn't need to make fucking sense. I don't

8:19

have to ask permission. I don't have to apologize. A

8:22

lot of us are just not great at that. And

8:24

it's not that we don't love making people feel good.

8:27

There's nothing wrong with that. What

8:29

is it balanced? Is it at the detriment of

8:31

ourselves? And by the

8:33

way, you're not going to say yes to every single one of these, just like

8:35

the quiz. Some people are going to be

8:37

on different extremes. And I also like

8:39

to say what I have found is that in

8:42

my relationship with my mom, for example, I

8:45

will say yes on this list to like, oh yeah, I can

8:47

see how I struggle with numbers like six, seven, and nine. And

8:49

in my relationship with John, it might be like 13 and 14.

8:52

And in my relationship with my best friend, it might be like one, two,

8:54

and six. They also show up

8:56

differently because different people trigger and activate

8:58

different responses in us because they have

9:01

their own shit. So

9:03

this isn't like blanket. A

9:07

fear of abandonment and rejection. So

9:09

I say this is the through line. All

9:12

codependent ways of relating are established

9:14

on this base level of fear

9:16

of abandonment or rejection. All

9:19

of them. People

9:21

pleasing. I'm

9:23

worried about how you're going to think about me if

9:25

I don't. People please. And

9:28

so I'm going to kind of alter myself. I'm going to

9:30

potentially self abandon so that you see me in a certain

9:32

way and you don't leave. Or

9:35

like martyring. I'm going to martyr

9:37

myself so that you stay with me because I'm of

9:39

such value to you, you

9:41

could never leave. You

9:44

can start to look at every one of these

9:46

behaviors and see how the fear is that through

9:48

line of why we do it. And

9:50

it's not to blame ourselves. It's just to have an understanding of like,

9:52

oh yeah, that makes sense. I can see the fear in that. Feeling

9:57

like a doormat. So

9:59

this comes from having poor. boundaries, right? And

10:01

I talk a lot about this in a

10:03

specific kind of boundaries workshop. But

10:06

this feeling of a doormat is

10:08

a lot of times linked to

10:10

the same kind of martyr, martyr

10:12

vibe. Right? A

10:14

desire to rescue, save or fix.

10:18

So a lot of us have equated

10:20

being needed with being loved. Not

10:24

the same thing. Right?

10:27

So we again, we

10:30

make sure that people won't leave us by making sure

10:32

that we are invaluable to them. Oh,

10:39

and by the way, there's never one person in

10:41

a relationship that's codependent. We're

10:44

all codependent in some way. We're

10:46

all codependent. That's why I say we're

10:48

all codependent. It's a societal thing. It

10:51

might show up differently than for you than for

10:53

him or manifest differently. Right? But the bottom line,

10:56

we're all acting out of fear to not lose

10:58

attachment. And that in and of itself is a

11:00

codependent way of relating to other people. Right?

11:04

One of my favorite things about summer is fulfilling

11:07

my social time with barbecues. And

11:10

when it comes to barbecuing, you got

11:12

to have the burgers, the hot dogs, the

11:15

sandwiches, right? And so I don't

11:18

know about you, but bread is one of my favorite things to

11:20

eat. And then I feel guilty

11:22

about it because all the heavy carbs, this

11:25

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11:50

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11:52

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11:54

a lot of healthy bread tastes really

11:57

bad, right? This bread

11:59

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12:01

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12:03

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12:06

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12:09

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12:11

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12:19

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12:22

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healthiest bread out. Reactivity.

12:57

So this is an interesting one,

12:59

because there is this quote that I love. So

13:02

there's this woman Pia Melody, who's like an OG

13:04

in the codependency world. And she has

13:06

this quote from one of her books where she says

13:08

codependents under react, they

13:10

overreact, but rarely do they act.

13:14

And what I love about that, well, it's so spot

13:17

on because we either we're on one extreme or the

13:19

other, right? We have black and white. That's typically how

13:21

we exist. It's fine. It's no

13:23

big deal. Stupid on the rug. I shouldn't be, this is not

13:26

a big deal. I shouldn't be upset about this. It's no big

13:28

deal until something stupid happens. That's

13:30

probably not even a big deal. And suddenly

13:32

we're like, well, it's a big deal, right?

13:34

A lot of us do that. Not everybody,

13:36

but that's very common. Right. And why is

13:38

that? Because we don't actually have the skills

13:40

to act, which

13:42

is from a solid

13:44

grounded sense of self saying, hey, that

13:47

thing that you said really hurt my feelings and

13:49

it wasn't cool. Right.

13:52

And if the other person says, well, and

13:54

they get all defensive and you go, listen, I don't, I'm not trying

13:57

to argue this with you. I'm just letting you know I didn't like

13:59

it. And I don't want to be treated that way. Right?

14:02

Which would be an action. Somebody, hey,

14:04

I feel really underappreciated or undervalued

14:07

when you do X, Y and Z. And

14:09

it's not about how they respond to

14:11

the information. It's just about

14:13

saying, coming from my grounded sense of self, I

14:15

can feel that feeling. I can now

14:18

know where that feeling's come from, and then I can verbalize

14:20

it. And I'm not doing

14:22

it out of fear or trying to, like, manipulate

14:24

the situation. If. A

14:29

difficulty with intimate relationships.

14:33

So, at the end of the

14:35

day, there is a kind of glass

14:38

ceiling, if you will, or just a wall, where

14:40

when I am not acting out of a state

14:42

of authenticity, there is only so intimate I can

14:45

get. It's only, like,

14:47

so intimate that we can be

14:49

with each other when I am

14:51

not acting out of an authentic

14:54

state. Because intimacy requires authenticity. Authenticity

14:56

requires vulnerability. If I'm acting

14:58

out of fear, I'm not

15:00

going to be truly vulnerable

15:02

or authentic. There's always going

15:04

to be a part of me that's a little fake. Not

15:07

rocking the boat. Because I don't want,

15:09

I'm worried about your reaction. That's not authentic. Now,

15:13

I get it. Again, I'm not blaming. I know

15:15

where it comes from. Like, maybe somebody is very

15:18

explosive. Or, like, I understand the why. But

15:20

we still have to be able to hold

15:23

ourselves accountable and say, but that's what I'm

15:25

doing. Right? I realize that when I do

15:27

that thing, I'm choosing to self abandon, not

15:30

be authentic, and there's only so intimate I can

15:32

get with this person. And again, this is

15:34

all intimate relationships, right? Not just romantic. And

15:38

so we have to kind of take a lot of

15:40

risk and say, okay, here's what I'm not going to

15:42

do anymore. Here's how I'm going to show up. I'm

15:44

going to show this side of myself, or I'm going

15:46

to do this thing, or I'm not going to fix

15:48

it, or whatever. And I'm going

15:50

to see the information that comes back to me when

15:53

I hold myself in integrity and I don't self

15:55

abandon. That's fucking scary and

15:57

really hard because our inner child

16:00

is going, they're going to leave, they're going to leave,

16:02

they're going to blow up, this is unsafe, you're going

16:04

to get left, the attachment is going to sever, and

16:06

that's, it could happen. It

16:08

could happen. It does happen. You

16:11

know, I say that especially with codependency work, when

16:13

you start really doing this work, I call it

16:15

like, John says, like, shaking the

16:17

tree, I think you use, and I always say like

16:19

a pasta strainer, all your relationships go

16:21

into the strainer, some of them fall through. They

16:25

do. They cannot tolerate you having a

16:27

grounded sense of self. It's

16:30

a mirror that they don't want to look in. And

16:33

if they don't want to, we shouldn't be making them. It's

16:36

their life. But you activate

16:38

them with them. And a lot of times they're like, I

16:40

don't want this anymore, right? And you changing changes

16:42

the dynamic. And

16:44

they're like, I didn't sign up for a change dynamic. I'm

16:46

in this for this dynamic. Who the fuck

16:48

are you to change the dynamic, right? But

16:51

we have to allow them that kind of choice,

16:53

you know? But that

16:55

is the fear. Chronic

16:59

lying or deception, usually to

17:01

yourself, but also the act

17:03

of not speaking up or

17:05

expressing ourselves honestly is deception.

17:09

I'm withholding information from somebody. So

17:12

like, if you have a chronic way of

17:14

doing something or saying something that hurts my

17:17

feelings or makes me feel unwanted or unneeded

17:19

or whatever, insert your thing here, right? And

17:22

I am not honest about that with you. I'm

17:25

acting out of fear to maintain

17:27

the attachment. I'm not being authentic.

17:30

And I'm actually being deceptive. There's

17:33

a deceptive quality to not being

17:35

honest about our relationship, like

17:37

what's going on, right? And it's like,

17:40

usually as I do this, I give like little trigger

17:42

warnings, like I'm about to call you a manipulator, trigger

17:44

warning, about to call you a liar, trigger warning, you

17:46

know? But it's like, like you

17:48

were saying, once you hear it, you can't hear it. You're

17:51

like, yeah, I know me too. Rage

17:58

bitterness. wait, let

18:00

me go back. Sorry, lack of trust in

18:02

yourself or others. So again, this, this, this

18:04

I'm acting out of fear. Again,

18:06

this is a lack of trust in

18:08

other people, myself, I

18:11

do not trust that I've got me and

18:13

I will be okay no matter what. And

18:16

so instead, I core I act out

18:18

of fear in my relationships. If I

18:20

had a solid sense of Yeah, it's gonna hurt.

18:23

But I know that at the end of the

18:25

day, I'm good. I got me, I would a

18:27

lot less, nobody's 100%. I would a lot less

18:29

be acting out of fear and making

18:31

sure that attachments are staying how they are.

18:33

Right? So a lot of this has lack

18:35

of trust. And I would also add in

18:37

this a lack of trust in something

18:40

bigger. A lack

18:42

of trust in I am held. I'm

18:45

okay. Doesn't have to

18:47

be religion doesn't have to be dogma,

18:49

it can be a sense of there

18:51

is an energy that's higher, bigger than

18:53

me. Right? Danae said to me

18:55

one time in in AA because

18:57

she did the AA route that the

19:00

you know, because obviously AA has a lot of like religious

19:02

and spiritual undertones and somebody said, well, you know, I'm atheist,

19:04

how do I engage in this? And the woman said, that's

19:06

fine. You don't have to believe in God. But this is

19:08

the question she always asks these people that say that she'll

19:10

say, I want you to go into the ocean and try

19:12

to stop the waves. And

19:15

then just tell me that there's no power greater

19:17

than you out there, even if it's the earth,

19:19

right? Like, of course, you're not, you're

19:21

not this, like we're all this. And there's

19:23

something even if it's just the way the

19:26

Mother Earth works, that's larger than us. But

19:28

the fact is, too, there's a lack of

19:30

trust in I'm okay.

19:33

And that's learned. That's learned. We don't come

19:35

out the womb, not trusting

19:37

that we're held, we come out the womb

19:39

and then we learn that we're not safe.

19:41

Our caretakers aren't safe, right? Our attachments aren't

19:44

safe. And so we start to develop this,

19:46

like, I am not safe. That

19:48

becomes our internal reality. And then it becomes

19:50

really hard to shake that. And then what

19:52

we do is we perpetuate that by that

19:54

belief, by our codependent

19:56

behaviors, by convincing ourselves see,

19:58

see what happens if I

20:01

don't make sure the boat's not rocked, they

20:03

leave. See? Right?

20:06

Or we unconsciously get into partnerships or relationships

20:08

with people that activate our wounding to just

20:12

reinforce our false beliefs. Right? Not

20:15

consciously, but unconsciously. Rage,

20:21

bitterness, hatred, fear,

20:23

depression, anxiety, helplessness,

20:25

despair, guilt. I

20:27

put all of these very heavy words on one

20:29

line for a reason. So

20:32

what I was saying earlier about how addictions

20:34

all serve the same purpose, right? To soothe

20:36

anxiety, to kind of hide to numb. Most

20:40

of us, unless you had a well

20:43

before their time kind of upbringing,

20:45

most of us were not taught

20:47

to be with very big, very

20:49

scary, very uncomfortable emotions. Right?

20:52

A lot of us, and this isn't to blame parents,

20:54

but a lot of us came from, you know, oh

20:57

my God, stop being so dramatic. Go to your

20:59

room until you've calmed down. Right? Like

21:02

suck it up. Like life's hard. You should be

21:04

grateful for what you have. Right? Like a

21:06

lot of kind of dismissive narratives around like pulling yourself up by

21:08

your bootstraps and that there's

21:10

something wrong with you for feeling big, uncomfortable,

21:12

scary things. So whatever that looked like for

21:15

you, the bottom line is the outcome is

21:17

still the same. We have no fucking idea

21:19

how to be with ourselves when things are

21:21

big and hard and scary. And a lot

21:23

of work, like as a therapist is really

21:26

teaching people that skill because it's

21:28

a skill. Right? I

21:31

am like despair and all of these anguishing

21:33

feelings that we're all going to feel in

21:35

our lives. I got to, I got to

21:37

make it stop. How do I

21:39

make it stop? Right? So I

21:41

distract myself. I throw myself into work. I

21:44

numb it through focusing on my kid who's having

21:46

a hard time at their work. Right? Or

21:49

I hide behind this new relationship or whatever.

21:51

We do this. How can I get out

21:53

of this feeling? Right? Rather

21:55

than actually making it a practice of meditating on and

21:57

being with that feeling. What do you think of the

21:59

outcome? That's it. You guys are so

22:01

hyper-independence is just the opposite side of

22:04

the same coin. It's

22:06

still a way to control what feels

22:08

uncontrollable. And for people,

22:10

I'm the same way, who feel more

22:13

in control when I don't have to look at or

22:15

rely on anybody else, because I'm the only one that

22:17

I can trust and rely on. No

22:19

one's ever fucking been there for me. I can't trust in

22:21

anybody. They're always going to leave. They're always going to disappoint

22:23

me. They're always going to fuck me over. I know that

22:25

I got my back. It's

22:28

still a way to distance, control

22:31

the amount of

22:34

vulnerability and intimacy that I allow into

22:36

my life, because that shit's scary and

22:38

I know where it goes. It leads

22:40

to heartbreak, disappointment. But then it does.

22:45

My point of we keep reinforcing. You keep

22:47

it to yourself every time. Yes. Well,

22:50

I was right. Yes. And

22:52

a lot of times, that's a lot of unconscious

22:54

stuff that we do that the ego seeks out,

22:56

because the ego has to be right. The

22:59

number one thing the ego needs is to be right.

23:03

And so the crazy thing about that idea

23:05

is that the ego will actually do things

23:07

that are hurtful and fucked up just to

23:10

prove to itself a theory. Like

23:12

I am not safe. I'm the only one I can

23:14

trust just to be right. See? I

23:17

told you. I told you. And

23:19

most of the time, we're not even conscious of it. It's

23:21

like acting underneath the surface until

23:24

we know. And then once we

23:26

know, sometimes we can't know. And we start to be

23:28

like, oh, interesting. Why am I doing this thing? Or

23:30

why am I reaching out to this person or not

23:32

reaching out to this person? We

23:34

might develop a little bit more of an

23:36

avoidant attachment style, which tends to go hand-in-hand

23:38

with the more hyper-independence. The

23:40

kind of codependency side of this coin tends to go hand-in-hand

23:43

with a little bit more of the anxiety or the anxious

23:45

way of relating. Two

23:47

sides in the same coin. It's all just ways to mitigate

23:49

anxiety at the end of the day. Discomfort

23:52

around being close. Discomfort

23:55

around trusting somebody. Right?

23:58

I don't trust that I will be okay and I will be okay. be helped.

24:00

So let me do this. Right.

24:03

Now, there's a long journey to kind

24:05

of unpack that and there's strategies and all kinds

24:07

of things to do, but there is a reason

24:09

for it. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

24:11

And that's usually the reason. So

24:13

that's why I say like hyper independence and codependency

24:15

at the end of

24:18

the whether we're talking about avoidant attachment anxious it

24:20

does all of this stuff serves the same purpose.

24:22

It's to soothe anxiety that comes

24:24

up from the potential of disappointment

24:27

abandonment rejection, right? Yeah, we just

24:29

all reach for different things and

24:31

has worked for us. And so we go back for more and

24:34

it gets stronger and stronger and the skill and the

24:36

tool becomes bigger and bigger because we keep proving it

24:38

to ourselves. Hey, if

24:41

you're interested in unconventional therapy

24:44

slash coaching, I invite you to come hang

24:46

with me for three days in Los Angeles.

24:49

My motto is if we're going to talk about life,

24:51

let's do life while we're talking using the city as

24:53

a canvas. Part of

24:56

it is processing part of it is

24:58

somatic experiences. It's kind of the same

25:00

tone and take I do with my

25:02

retreats except one person

25:05

just you and me. I also

25:07

bring on a team. So you have a

25:09

team at your disposal while I take you

25:11

through everything from

25:13

fitness to ice plunges to

25:15

sound baths, somatic work, rock

25:17

climbing. And of course we

25:20

have one on one deeper

25:22

conversations and process along the way.

25:25

You can find out more info on my website

25:27

at the angry therapist dot com.

25:30

Just hit the top tab there or front

25:33

and center on my bio link on

25:35

my Instagram. Hope to see you in LA.