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listen to the first episode today, wherever

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Wann announce it.

1:04

Yeah. I'd read that. We're like, sick.

1:11

Hey, I'm Brian Hyatt, and this is Rolling

1:13

Stone, music down.

1:15

to going back to reputation in

1:17

two thousand seventeen, we've

1:19

done deep dives on the show for

1:21

each of Taylor Swift's new problems.

1:23

And every time I've been joined by Britney Spanos

1:25

who just taught a class on Taylor and here at

1:27

University and Rob Sheffield.

1:30

Now, of course, Taylor has just

1:32

released yet another new album,

1:35

Midnight, which just broke the record

1:37

for single day streams on Spotify. So

1:39

Rob and Britney are back, and we're doing

1:41

it again. And we're going all the way through

1:43

the album, including the bonus songs

1:46

on the three AM edition. This

1:48

is our longest deepest dive ever.

1:50

Hope you enjoy it.

1:55

Professor Britney Spanos and Rob Sheffield

1:58

welcome to

1:59

the Tower Swift midnight episode.

2:02

Thank you for having us. Happy midnight.

2:04

We had an ability to get ready

2:06

in advance on the songs

2:08

on the main album. And then, you know, we're

2:10

just a little peeved with Taylor.

2:12

She unleashes seven seven

2:15

other songs at three

2:17

in the morning. I didn't quite believe

2:19

she was gonna do that. I have to admit. Yeah.

2:21

I was very pleasantly surprised that

2:23

there is more knee material. I

2:25

definitely I was convinced when she's

2:27

had said that there's a three AM

2:28

announcement that was gonna be

2:30

tour

2:30

dates or a rerecord or something.

2:33

But

2:34

-- Yeah.

2:34

-- they very well complement

2:36

midnights and are kind of like a

2:38

really fun addition. I was basically

2:40

chatting fans. They thought there was gonna be a whole other

2:42

album. I was like, come on. You always think

2:44

that Radiohead fans thought King of

2:46

LIM's had a second part and then

2:49

basically wrong, so there you go.

2:51

She's been very generous with her son output

2:53

recently. I think, unfortunately, this is proving

2:56

that touring is a waste of time. Don't

2:58

tour. Just sit at home, rerecord

3:00

all your old albums, get in the vibe

3:02

and just pump out songs. We love it.

3:04

Rob, you were saying, in your ideal world, Taylor

3:06

just keeps riding this creative wave. it's

3:09

incredible. Yes.

3:10

She has

3:12

seven number one albums in five years

3:14

that's kind of a a feat historically.

3:17

She's now got two hundred and twenty nine songs in

3:19

her catalog.

3:20

The first time I did my Taylor Swift songs

3:23

ranked list five years ago

3:25

right before reputation came out. There are a hundred

3:27

and fifteen songs. She has

3:29

doubled her catalog. Already

3:32

a gigantic catalog. She's on

3:34

a historic role. She's like, Boey

3:36

in the late seventies are, like, little Wayne

3:38

in in two thousand seven when

3:40

the Muse touches you with this kind of

3:42

winning streak you know, you owe it

3:44

to history and you owe it to yourself to just go

3:46

all the way with it. I usually play a drinking game

3:49

with Springsteen Bowie more c references

3:51

on these episodes, but you did Lil Wayne, which

3:53

I wasn't expecting, and so tears

3:56

drinking water. Lil Wayne in two thousand

3:58

seven, it was like Oh, yeah. No. Is it He

4:00

had, like, another insane? Yes.

4:02

Not totally app comparison just

4:04

wasn't expecting. Just

4:07

didn't see it coming. Britney in her

4:09

great review of midnight, which

4:11

if you haven't read, just go ahead and pause

4:13

this and then go read that. Britney

4:16

referred to the purple

4:18

blue synth bug of this album,

4:20

which is a lovely description. And

4:22

it is in fact, of course, a

4:25

return to since both

4:27

for Taylor after the bookier

4:30

approach

4:30

of book Lauren

4:32

evermore. And for Jack Antanoff, it's

4:34

actually really funny. He dropped an enormous

4:36

clue to this. Last year when

4:38

I profiled him, he's

4:40

been all about guitars in his collaborations

4:42

with all these different people, including

4:44

Tower, those albums were more

4:46

Iron Desert, of course. But, you know,

4:48

including Tower with Lord.

4:51

I hate the winter. Cast

4:53

thin coat, accent,

4:56

to cancel all the plants.

4:59

and a million other people. And he was like, oh, you

5:02

know, actually lately, I've been back on the

5:04

synthesizers. I've been really focused on synthesizers

5:06

and some of the new stuff I was working on. So Huge

5:08

clue. Mhmm. So we should have seen this

5:10

coming. But it carries

5:12

forward from reputation

5:15

and everyone knows we believe

5:18

that's a deeply underrated and and great

5:20

album. Absolutely. Yes.

5:22

And also, among other

5:24

things from the archer, I'm covered.

5:35

Which was slightly different, Cynthia direction.

5:37

But what are the other test stones we're

5:39

hearing? We're gonna go song by song, but I thought we'd

5:41

talk more broadly about the sound before

5:43

we do that. Yeah.

5:44

I mean, I feel like this album,

5:47

just because of the subject matter too, right,

5:49

these, like, midnight

5:50

sleepless night type of

5:52

intrusive thoughts kind of taking over her

5:54

brain about relationships and about her

5:56

own, like, self hatred and about her enemies

5:58

and all these different things kind

5:59

of running through her mind in the middle of

6:02

the night. So it's kind of caught between that

6:04

sort of dark broodiness

6:06

of reputation.

6:15

She

6:15

has a very similar sort of like middle

6:17

of the night anxiety, energy ring

6:19

through it, or so much of anxiety seeped

6:22

through it. And also, like, the, you know, nineteen

6:24

eighty nine, which is such a kind

6:26

of bright sounding

6:27

the obama

6:35

And like there is so many right

6:37

soft

6:37

moments

6:38

throughout this. But, yeah, I feel like

6:41

it's

6:41

definitely of

6:42

Taylor's album, I feel like it's closest to ninety

6:45

nine and reputation. I love this

6:47

about Taylor and I think also such a

6:49

fun surprise. No one really knew what she was gonna

6:51

do next. This is the most kind

6:53

of shocking turn in a

6:55

lot of ways because we've seen so many different

6:57

sides of her. And so the last two

6:59

years were kind of so steep, like, in her

7:01

very productive era, she was very much

7:03

doing a very specific sound even in

7:05

terms of the rerecords doing

7:07

a country album or two, you know, two

7:09

country albums really, like, at the

7:11

for the first two rerecords after, like, this,

7:13

like, indy folk term. So I think it

7:15

was kind of fun to see her go

7:17

back to the fifth pop that she was making pre

7:19

pandemic and

7:20

find new ways to unlock that. Rob, maybe

7:22

you can touch upon what you think

7:24

of this sound and what

7:26

touchstones you're hearing within it.

7:28

Well,

7:29

sounds very much like reputation. It

7:31

reminds me a lot of something that she said to you

7:33

after reputation came out that

7:36

that was her nighttime cityscape

7:38

record. and I I love the

7:40

way she described it to you that she was picturing

7:43

deserted industrial warehouses and

7:45

she didn't wanna have any acoustic instruments.

7:48

She said she didn't want anything wooden on that

7:50

album. She said there's there's no wood floors

7:52

on that album. And she compared it

7:54

to lover, which she said is you know,

7:56

lots of wooden floors.

7:58

We could leave the Christmas lights up

8:01

till January.

8:04

And

8:05

this is Which is funny because,

8:07

you know, then

8:08

for her next two albums, folklore and

8:11

evermore, she, you know, went

8:13

deep into the wood to the point where lovers

8:15

seemed like a, you know, pure pop

8:17

record by comparison, but this

8:19

really goes back to that sort of Nighttime

8:21

cityscape sound that you were discussing

8:23

with her about reputation. It

8:25

really has that sound, but it takes it to new

8:27

emotional realms. As far

8:29

as other artists, what,

8:31

sonically, what are you hearing here if

8:33

anything? Imparison

8:36

what? It's very

8:38

sort of of moody. There's a

8:40

lot of wet in

8:41

the nineties we used to call trip hop.

8:43

A lot of that on the album. Lavender

8:45

haze is very much Massive Attack

8:47

kind of song.

8:56

You know, comes

8:58

back like a nineties trend. You

8:59

know? And every nineties trend comes

9:02

back on a tailor record somehow and

9:03

it's definitely got a lot of that sort of

9:06

nineties r and b reminds me a lot of

9:08

my favorite Janet Jackson record, the

9:10

velvet rope. I Taylor had

9:12

to be listening to a lot of the elevator rope when she

9:14

was writing these songs.

9:18

Shops

9:24

up, Janet. I'm a regular -- So --

9:26

call for you like Janet. It's the new in my

9:28

feelings like Drake. This

9:30

thing about

9:31

Taylor Swift, she's somebody who, you

9:33

know, steadied all the all the

9:35

expert pot moves. She's somebody wanted to be a

9:37

brilliant songwriter really young in life,

9:39

just learned all the tricks super young, so

9:41

she was already you know, a a total

9:43

master when she debuted. She was like

9:45

more than a team prodigy. She debuted as

9:47

somebody who knew all the tricks down cold.

9:49

And So her ability

9:51

to connect different sort of sounds and different

9:53

sort of errors in history at

9:55

her own level of emotional specificity,

9:57

and nobody's ever really done that before. The

9:59

sing on this album was one of the first

10:02

things I noticed. I think that,

10:03

again, going to our thesis that

10:05

no artist should ever tour, tours are

10:07

over, Waste time, stay on the

10:10

road. Stay off the road. It seems like the

10:12

time off the road all the

10:14

time that she spent more time in the

10:16

studio then I think

10:18

one can really comprehend when

10:20

you really think about how much

10:22

time it must have taken

10:24

to do all of the Taylor's

10:26

versions. She's cranking

10:29

in the studio as much as anyone.

10:32

And then Taylor versions and and all this new

10:34

music that you're referring to. So she's

10:36

like the queen of the studio, the

10:38

international queen of the studio right now.

10:40

So She must be more aware

10:42

of her voice in the studio than ever.

10:44

And plus when artists are off the

10:46

road, they get to rest their

10:48

voices. That's often when you hear

10:50

a

10:50

sudden leap in

10:52

vocal ability. Taylor's always

10:54

been sort of prone to theatrical

10:57

elements

10:57

in her song. And she's a storyteller.

10:59

Like, especially when she was doing country music, she would

11:01

do like a lot of those, like, country

11:04

inflections. And with pop music, it seemed

11:06

like she you know,

11:07

once you kind of moved into, like, nineteen eighty nine

11:09

and reputation, those theatrics, of

11:11

course, were a little bit

11:14

sidelined to kind of deliver sort of, like, big

11:16

off Anthem's and to kind of show a little bit more of

11:18

that kind of, like, vocal range where it

11:20

needed to come out, you know, and songs like, how of

11:22

the wood? nodes.

11:27

So,

11:32

like, don't blame me. Where

11:41

she's kind of doing these big

11:43

belting moments that she really wasn't

11:45

doing so often on her music that

11:47

people didn't get to hear constantly,

11:49

especially in her singles at least.

11:50

And so I think something, like, really

11:52

happened and changed with

11:55

folklore and evermore where it seems like

11:57

as, like, you know, of course, we we've talked a lot

11:59

about her experimentation with songwriting and, like, kind

12:01

of, like, what this period of

12:03

creativity was bringing out of her. You could really

12:05

hear so much in the way that she's recording

12:08

her voice and getting to know, like, how she can

12:10

do these different inflections, these different tones. It

12:12

could be very subtle. It could be little, lyrical,

12:14

phrasing moments. I

12:16

think of, like, the way that she sings

12:18

the beginning of the jouled on on the

12:20

album. Something about the phrasing of it where she's,

12:22

like, a little bit deeper than usual. Her

12:24

voice is stronger. showing off a lot more

12:26

sides of it in ways that aren't belting

12:28

or melodramatic pop and country

12:30

theatrics and everything. She's able to kind of show that

12:32

she's able to really have control over it and a of

12:34

ways, and I think that's really fun. And

12:36

I think it comes with her trying out all these

12:38

different sounds like we think of, like, during

12:41

something like August

12:56

We're such

12:58

unique to tailor kind of vocal

13:01

performances and also ways that she's had herself

13:03

recorded in the studio. In

13:05

addition to the

13:06

ethereal high end of her voice that

13:09

she's showing off to incredible effect, She's

13:11

also debuted in electronically altered

13:14

deep versions like Bonnevier

13:16

does. Like, I would compare it to there

13:19

is infamously unreleased Prince

13:21

Albemio, which is probably coming out

13:23

soon, by the way, where he used

13:25

electronic alteration to find a

13:27

female version of himself And

13:29

so she has this this this

13:32

voice, Tate Swift. I would

13:34

call it. She may have her own name for it,

13:36

but but this this Her own Joe Calderon.

13:39

Yes. It's

13:41

a note that she did the Camille thing before

13:43

the sun at the time sing before an enchanted.

13:46

Which is

13:53

one of our greatest songs,

13:54

but also one of the greatest reductions,

13:57

maybe

13:57

Taylor Swift song. But the

13:59

the way she does the

13:59

Prince do wedding with Camille sort of thing

14:02

in that that song. I mean, it's

14:04

it's a type of song

14:06

in the type of production that she really hasn't

14:08

gone back too much since enchanted. I

14:10

mean, how could you can't improve on that song? It's

14:12

just like a perfect thing. But There's so

14:14

much of that on this album.

14:16

Midnight rain, which is, you know, one of the

14:18

songs on this album. There are a few of them, Britney and I

14:20

were like, going back about the songs

14:22

that you missed the first few times through,

14:25

you know, like, labyrinth, I

14:27

didn't get the I didn't even notice it the first

14:29

few times. Midnight rain, I didn't even

14:31

notice it the first few times. Yeah.

14:33

But a completely phenomenal song.

14:35

The Prince Camille sort of male

14:38

female, DAGA Calderon sort

14:40

of duet on that song is

14:42

really, like, adds a solo their level

14:44

to it.

14:44

Yeah. I

14:45

also, like, I love like,

14:48

you're you're on your own kids sort of like that, like,

14:50

extreme sort of, like, almost like

14:52

childlike kind of, you know, like, softness

14:54

it, where there's this kind of like I have a tea to the way she's singing,

14:56

and she's

14:56

singing, you know, a song like

14:58

snow on the beach right before -- Yep. -- present day,

15:00

Taylor kind of confidence. And there's, like, a little bit

15:02

of, like, softness in this child like nature

15:04

when she's singing about this sort

15:06

of

15:06

heartbreaking kind of teenage

15:09

moment

15:09

that leads to her becoming

15:11

who she

15:11

is now and leads to her sort of being like, well, I

15:13

can let out these feelings in a song. Great

15:16

point. And I and I also link

15:18

that to the Taylor's versions

15:20

project. Because once

15:22

you've attempted to

15:24

embody yourself in various ages

15:26

and stages of your life on

15:28

record, to reembody yourself, you

15:30

don't lose that ability. Yeah.

15:33

So every artist apparently when they hit

15:35

thirty should rerecord their whole catalog.

15:37

because it it really helps you. Get to work everyone.

15:39

I keep I keep texting

15:40

all my friends. I'm like, Taylor is very this

15:42

is giving inner child therapy work. You

15:45

can tell so

15:46

much of what she's referencing is

15:48

her going through her teenage

15:51

diaries again. She saw it with a cohort and evermore, of

15:53

course, like, with the teenage love triangle.

15:55

writing a song from the perspective of an apology

15:57

she'd always wanted from the

15:59

boys who'd

15:59

broken her heart as a teen. Now we have these songs where

16:02

she's really digging into

16:04

other

16:04

sides of other songs we've heard,

16:06

other themes that we've heard throughout her music

16:08

and opening up the

16:09

kind of portal to, like, what

16:11

other sort of what else can she take from

16:13

these moments and take from these anxieties

16:15

in these these sleepless nights? You can

16:17

so much tell how much she's

16:20

going through everything. You can connect it to very

16:22

specific moments that you have discussed

16:24

this probably with the

16:24

therapist and are now kind of doing a

16:27

little bit of reflection. your life.

16:29

I mean, everybody's got therapist, but nobody

16:31

else is, like, sort of going

16:32

back in time to have these dialogues between

16:34

their, you know, fifteen year old self

16:36

and they're twenty two year old self and they're thirty one

16:39

year old self. This album reminds me a lot

16:41

of the Aligness video. Remember the

16:43

ironic video? or she's in the car full

16:45

of a lanyuses. They're

16:46

all kind of having this conversation about what's

16:48

ironic, so much of that in this hour. All the

16:50

tailors are sort of in dialogue. It's

16:52

my question.

16:59

the And she

17:01

plays with that in the videos list. Yeah. Exactly.

17:03

Exactly. She's doing, you know, like, the anti hair hair

17:05

of video. There's so Three tailers. It's

17:08

-- Yeah. -- good.

17:10

love that video. As of two thousand nineteen,

17:13

she said she'd never been in therapy.

17:15

But, you know, Who

17:17

knows? Who knows what happens over the pandemic? It

17:19

is true that she does a lot through

17:21

the songs. I mean, that therapist

17:23

would

17:23

have a lot to keep up with.

17:26

She would have to first give the entire

17:28

catalog to she'd have to

17:30

basically redo Rob's song

17:32

ranking of the therapist And

17:34

then and and then take your course, Britney. And

17:37

then and then perhaps,

17:39

you could send that to never

17:41

been a therapist doing this much homework before they had to do

17:44

that. Absolutely. Taylor

17:46

has an artistic challenge

17:48

lately that she's been

17:50

more than rising to the

17:53

occasion of, which is that she

17:55

is in a happy relationship and has

17:57

been for several years.

17:59

And there's only so many

17:59

songs that one can write that say, I am in a

18:02

happy relationship. And

18:03

with Evermore and folklore, of course,

18:05

the way she resolved that

18:08

dilemma, was digging

18:10

deep into these fictional stories that

18:12

she was writing. That was a fake up because,

18:14

you know, when I first heard the

18:17

one, the first moment that I heard the one. I was like, this song

18:19

fucking rules. And also, I'm so sorry that

18:21

she and Joe broke up. I'm

18:23

feeling

18:24

good. I'm on some new

18:28

the

18:30

I

18:34

swear to god, that was my initial reaction. I was like,

18:36

holy shit. This that's why I thought it was ton of love, but but

18:38

then I realized was so that was the way she

18:40

solved that And this one, Britney, as you're

18:42

saying, she solved it with this brilliant

18:44

setup, this concept that I'm set up

18:46

of I'm returning

18:47

to these various points of my own

18:50

life. Yeah. And revisiting them. So

18:51

it's weird. What could have been a challenge for

18:54

a confessional, autobiographical songwriter

18:57

and could have stymied a lesser artist has

18:59

instead spurred some of her best songwriter.

19:02

And one thing Taylor's gonna do is she's

19:04

gonna find that tension. Yeah.

19:06

She's gonna buying the drama. She has told

19:08

us repeatedly on the

19:10

record. I live for the drama. I love the you

19:12

know, it's all over. She loves it.

19:14

She will find it. She doesn't need Like,

19:16

it's

19:16

like a real say less moment

19:17

for her. Right? Where she's like, oh, don't

19:19

worry. I will find something that I

19:21

am am going to

19:23

you know, the kind of nemesis and

19:25

it might just be me. It might

19:27

I might be the nemesis now. You

19:29

know,

19:29

she's really she's really good at that. She

19:31

could she can find an enemy And

19:33

she, you know, will find that person that will be that villain

19:35

in the song to sort of, like, have this war with

19:37

if she needs to and kind of create that

19:39

tension. It's really true. It's

19:41

She will find that drama. She

19:43

does not need real life drama. It's so funny

19:45

to think that, Joe

19:46

has been around for her fully half

19:48

her songs at this point. but

19:50

the Joe period is half her career at this

19:53

point. It's funny that people, you

19:55

know, joked that, you know, oh, like, you know,

19:57

now she's got a steady

19:59

the

19:59

stable functional relationship with somebody

20:02

seems like a sane actual human being. What

20:04

you're gonna write songs about? It turns out that, you know,

20:06

all that other stuff was more of a distraction that

20:08

really freed her up for the most productive

20:09

point of her career. I mean, again,

20:12

though, it's not necessarily

20:14

that easy for other artists. There's so many artists

20:16

you talk to. I mean, It's

20:17

a cliche, but I'm thinking about who's actually said it to me

20:19

recently. Cheryl Crow is someone who say,

20:21

like, I'm afraid. I was always afraid of being

20:23

in a happy relationship because I was afraid I

20:25

wouldn't have anything to write about. So

20:27

there, you know and and I was afraid of happiness in

20:30

general. So there there is that thing where

20:32

artists run away from happiness and contentment.

20:34

I guess other artists can say can look at

20:36

this in see how it's single

20:38

handedly proven that that

20:40

very damagingly shaverong,

20:42

I guess. Yeah. It

20:43

kinda I mean, it reminds me of maybe

20:46

this is my this is my, like, Bruce Spring

20:48

scene, Bob Dylan reference. It kinda reminds me

20:50

of Oh, during the latter years of CVNix

20:53

and the fact that so much of it

20:55

has been so influenced by a

20:57

mix of literature and past

20:59

experiences and, like, social characters, like it

21:01

does, you know, of course,

21:01

Stevie, when we first heard

21:03

her, it was

21:04

really pulling was pulling from very

21:06

active relationships with people that

21:08

she's performing with and all, you know, all these other

21:11

experiences. And as she got older, that

21:13

didn't suffer creatively if

21:15

she continued to kind of write about

21:17

those past experiences and twilight

21:19

and all of that stuff, you know? It's just gonna

21:21

say that including twilight. Don't worry.

21:23

I will bring up the twilight song.

21:26

Phoenix, twilight song, the

21:28

single best artistic thing that come out

21:30

of toilet.

21:38

No no doubt. Okay.

21:41

Well, I feel bodge

21:43

to mention that I go back

21:45

to December

21:46

all the time. I got a

21:48

Taylor Wattner. Yes. Famously beloved

21:50

by Taylor Swift and Steven Jackson.

21:54

We we all need

21:56

it. That was all preamble. We

21:58

are going to go through

21:59

every song on midnights. We'll also

22:02

talk a bit about the bonus tracks

22:04

go

22:05

the get

22:06

a drink, sit down, go

22:08

for a walk, whatever we're digging in.

22:11

Let's

22:11

start with Lavinder

22:13

has the opening

22:15

track. I

22:21

loved that her

22:23

image for, like, the

22:25

romantic relationship the ultimate

22:27

romantic relationship is Don

22:30

and Betty Draper from mad

22:32

men. That's a definite

22:34

like, example of how the lavender haze can

22:37

often cover up for a pitfall

22:39

of it. you wanna run screaming from. You

22:41

know, it did. Don Draper and Betty

22:43

were indeed in the lavender haze when they got

22:45

married. Did it turn into a

22:47

completely life wrecking disaster for both

22:49

of them and and for lots of other people who

22:51

cross their paths. It it's just

22:53

a wonderfully double edged song that way.

22:55

I think, like, especially kind of the

22:58

in

22:58

the lineage of Taylor sort of,

23:00

like, openingdistract

23:01

kind

23:03

of being a a dissette. Like,

23:04

you know, very, like, I forgot that you existed

23:07

type of song where it's like, you

23:08

know,

23:09

please stop asking if I'm married.

23:11

I'm like all this other stuff. Like, it's

23:13

just like -- It's -- you know -- Good. --

23:15

let it be. Yeah. The only kind of girl they see

23:17

is a one night or a wife.

23:20

asking me is if I'm gonna be a bride. He's pretty on

23:22

the nose, and it's pretty clear.

23:24

Well, what we're talking about? So And with

23:26

a Zoey Kravitz, a co write

23:28

on it. So I guess the talk you're talking

23:30

go viral. I just need this love

23:32

spiral sort of implies

23:34

that if we're talking about that these

23:36

midnight star specific times

23:38

of her life being the concept. This was maybe

23:40

from a couple years ago, this one, or is

23:42

it now? I feel like it's now. I feel like

23:44

the marriage rumors have been really prevalent over

23:47

the last couple years, there was, like, an

23:49

engagement rumor, like, two months ago.

23:51

There was a lot of reporting on it where people were,

23:53

like, she has a ring. you

23:55

know, it's kind of like an obsession that people have with, I

23:58

mean,

23:58

any sort of, especially,

24:00

like, famous women and famous

24:02

relationships. Are they gonna wed

24:05

are they going to procreate? So I think that's

24:07

sort of been something that's come up every

24:09

single month with her.

24:11

It would make sense to see if or breaking

24:13

up. You know? I feel like that's always the rumor.

24:15

If if no one's heard from them in a while, it's

24:17

always, like, they either

24:19

they are either breaking up

24:21

or She's

24:22

pregnant, and they're being married. And

24:24

track two, Maroon.

24:26

When mom

24:28

and Kamley, we're cleaning and

24:30

scents off you final

24:32

shelf because we lost track.

24:34

It's all my money. I wanna shout

24:35

out Wyeth, our social

24:37

media guy at Rolling Stone.

24:39

Who said that Maroon was basically the best song he's

24:42

ever heard in his entire life?

24:44

It it is a pretty great song,

24:46

actually. Yeah. I love how she keeps having the same

24:48

New York romance over

24:50

and over again. It's like whether it's,

24:52

you know, king

24:52

of my heart. I'm perfectly fine.

24:56

I live on that all. Holy

25:02

ground. Vinny like

25:04

a girl in a brand

25:06

new dress. We have this big lot city up to

25:08

us, sir. We got the

25:10

noise.

25:12

Cornelia Street. This Give

25:17

this girl

25:20

New York City

25:22

in a rooftop, in a beer,

25:24

and She's like, oh, this

25:26

is the ultimate adventure.

25:28

She's got a lot of cities. You know, she's

25:30

been to a lot of cities. She can she can write

25:32

herself her own ticket in any city on earth. I

25:34

love that she keeps coming back to the idea of the New

25:36

York romance as, you know, the

25:39

puzzle she keeps going back. The Rubik's

25:41

cube, she keeps trying

25:42

to go back and solve. Do I have to be

25:44

the jerk who mentions, you know, you spilled your

25:47

Burgundy wine on my t shirt? This

25:49

is a very halo sign.

25:51

pain of

25:51

the red wine in my shirt. I'm bleeding

25:54

love. And back and forth between great

25:56

songwriters, it's it's really kind of a

25:58

a beautiful thing to see.

25:59

You know? Tony

26:00

Mitchell and James Taylor got it out of their systems, basically

26:02

one album apiece. You know? Like

26:05

Wait. What did Harry say in his

26:08

cover. It was like the unspoken dialogue. Yes.

26:10

Yeah. Beautiful way to put it. They

26:12

keep lobbying this, you know, lobbying

26:14

this volleyball over the net back and

26:17

forth. It's just a beautiful thing to see. And

26:19

Harry would

26:19

Harry have incense on his vinyl

26:21

shelf? Yes. Yes. He will.

26:23

Yes. He will. Okay. Fine. I'm

26:26

Is there anything about any other

26:28

biographical that but, like, for the fact that, you know,

26:30

this you are. There's there's a stuff

26:32

between I'm talking about

26:34

song. I'm talking about songs. This

26:36

is song. speculative song. We're not in

26:38

the studio. Christmas songs. Yes.

26:40

Just have it a little fun.

26:42

On my Yes. We're talking about a mythology

26:45

that that they both are inspired

26:47

by. Taylor, she just told the

26:49

Washington Post, absolutely. encodes

26:52

things in her songs and

26:54

we've known that from the first album.

26:56

The problem with that is in

26:58

the modern world, of course, is that it it

27:00

sparks people going into QAnon

27:03

level backiness, but that's

27:05

not really her problem. That's our problem

27:07

of everything. problem, to be honest. I

27:09

think TikTok has made people, like, really

27:11

I agree. TikTok makes people and

27:13

I say this is a person who, like, will be, like,

27:15

I read something and is

27:17

it literally a TikTok video? You know, like, I'm not I'm not excluding

27:20

myself from this at all. When you have

27:22

someone

27:22

speaking

27:23

into a camera, very directly to

27:25

you and very convincingly, you

27:27

are prone to just believe that versus

27:29

Tumblr where you can kinda like

27:32

read something silly and then Google it later.

27:34

You know, Twitter, of course, you

27:35

know, there's problems with that both on and

27:37

off. But, like, for the most

27:38

part, you'll get you'll get fact checked on Twitter.

27:41

explicit way very quickly. Whereas

27:42

TikTok,

27:43

if you just watch the video and

27:45

someone's like, this is what I

27:46

think it is. Like, I was following for

27:49

every single every

27:50

single theory that was happening on TikTok. I was like, okay.

27:53

This is this is gonna be a

27:54

seventy soft rock album.

27:57

and

27:58

it's based off of this

27:59

thing and all

28:00

of the you know, I was like, I was like, okay, she was holding

28:02

the phone a certain day. Does it

28:05

that mean? To be fair, you've you've to

28:07

manifest that album for her for some time. So

28:09

I've been trying -- Yeah. -- doing

28:11

a horrible job. that's

28:15

actually a great segue because

28:17

in the brilliant video

28:19

for the next song, she

28:21

actually mocks this tendency. There

28:23

is a moment in video for anti

28:25

hero. I

28:26

am staying where I get

28:28

older, but just have a

28:30

wiser, then mics become

28:33

my after knows. When

28:34

she I have to go back

28:36

and explain a lot that we should be getting to, but

28:39

there's a bit in this song where she imagines

28:41

her future daughter-in-law murdering

28:43

her for her inheritance, the

28:46

video brilliantly kinda spins off of

28:48

that. And

28:50

there's a moment when her will basically says, I'm not leaving you

28:52

Jack's shit. And then they say, way check.

28:54

There must be a secret code in there that

28:56

means the opposite. and

28:59

that is such a

29:01

double self aware thing of --

29:03

Yeah. -- how her tendency to embed things in the

29:05

songs of and led people to over interpret to

29:07

the point where they're like, when she refers

29:09

to her boyfriend, she means she doesn't have a

29:11

boyfriend. It's, you know, when you encourage people to

29:13

dig someone's, they dig themselves into their

29:16

own hole and then bury themselves. But

29:18

that's, again, not her problem. But,

29:20

yes, anti hero. Palma

29:21

Cartney had the right attitude just, you know, the

29:24

first time something like this happened at his scale

29:26

with Apollo's dead thing. And

29:27

and he just said flat out,

29:29

I'm not gonna deny it. as

29:31

Paul said, his quote was, this will be the

29:33

best publicity we've ever had and I won't have to do

29:35

anything except stay alive. And

29:39

he totally had the right attitude about it, and that's totally like

29:41

Taylor's attitude. She loves this, you know, the

29:43

fact that people are

29:46

picking up on her bread crumbs as Bob

29:48

Dillon would say, like, but, yeah, that

29:50

moment in the video is so funny. It's

29:52

so funny in the song. It's I love when

29:54

this sort of you know, alternate timeline Taylor appears her

29:57

secret shipper and, you know,

29:59

they

29:59

the it's kinda beautiful. It

30:01

reminds me of the Britney Lucky Video. Britney

30:03

Spears, I mean. Yeah. when,

30:05

you know, Britney is watching herself,

30:07

you know, there's the wise

30:09

elder Britney who's watching the

30:11

young impulsive,

30:12

impetuous Hollywood girl. No.

30:14

Andrea Hero is, like, the first song that I've

30:17

really, really loved

30:18

for my first lesson on the album.

30:20

That was, like, the first immediate favorite. I love the

30:23

everybody's a sexy baby. And I'm

30:25

the monster on the hill line. I think it is

30:27

so brilliant. Honestly, like, I think

30:29

it might be my favorite

30:31

lyric on the on the entire album. I just

30:33

said that it's so good. I may think it relates to

30:35

a lot of things she said about

30:37

you know,

30:37

like her saw nothing new, which came out

30:39

as a boat track for a red about her

30:42

feeling

30:42

like she was already washed up. I

30:44

think twenty two. That's a very real thing for a

30:46

lot of teen artists who are trying to continue their

30:48

careers and continue their paths into

30:50

adulthood. And I think that

30:51

was just like so

30:53

you

30:53

know, I I think it's just like such a great layer of it's like

30:56

very silly in essence, but I think it's also

30:58

just like a really real anxiety that she

31:00

was able to kind of put into

31:02

Yeah. There's,

31:02

like, five things going on there and

31:04

it's also so funny. Yeah. Sometimes

31:06

I feel like everybody is a sexy baby and

31:08

I'm a monster on the

31:10

too big to hang out slowly lurching

31:12

toward your favorite city, peers through the heart,

31:14

but never killed. There's what you

31:17

mentioned. There's also, you know, she talked about,

31:19

you know, the fact that she's

31:20

her life becomes too big for

31:23

people for her to be seen as a human

31:25

being, and that's sort of the too big to

31:27

hang out as it relates to that. It's great

31:29

to be that, but it's to

31:31

to be the

31:31

level of what she is, but it also means

31:34

that, like, people have trouble treating you like

31:36

a person. People see her all the time and

31:38

they can't remember how to you might say.

31:40

Their minds are full of big ideas,

31:42

images, and distorted facts. I mean, what are you what

31:44

are you gonna do? Yeah. Drink

31:47

pop down reference for for anyone keeping track.

31:50

So we could do a whole podcast

31:52

just on this song.

31:54

You know, when The the beginning I have to say is

31:56

not true. I have this thing where I get older, but just

31:58

never wiser. I specifically

32:00

said in in my two

32:02

longest encounters with her between two thousand twelve and

32:04

two thousand nine eighteen. I felt

32:06

shamed in two thousand nineteen because I felt like

32:08

I hadn't grown at all as a person and

32:10

here was someone who would vast

32:13

matureed and gone to this whole other level and I felt

32:15

if anything had progressed. I don't agree with her

32:17

there, but III relate to the

32:19

feeling. But then, I mean, so much going on. I mean, I have this

32:21

thing where I get older, but just never wiser. Mind

32:23

that's become my afternoons, Elon.

32:25

When my

32:25

depression, there it is, works the

32:28

graveyard shift all

32:29

of the people I've ghosted stand there in

32:31

the room. Really?

32:32

Wow. Maybe

32:35

dig into that for a minute. because

32:37

it's a great, like, anxiety side. Like, this is, like, maybe, like,

32:39

the best sort of thesis of the album in

32:41

terms of what the

32:42

concept is. Like,

32:44

every single bit of it. We've we've heard

32:47

her talk about. We've

32:48

heard her kind of, like, dig

32:49

into these things in other songs. You

32:52

know, like, feeling like, you

32:53

know, just this incredible anxiety about, like, public

32:55

image, all that. She's had fun with that in the past, but

32:57

this is just probably the the

32:59

best way she's ever gotten that across.

33:02

And so So succinctly. Pretty really expanded my

33:03

appreciation for anti hero, which at first I

33:06

thought was one of the lesser track. One of the

33:08

things that Taylor is a master at

33:10

Lyricly is the taking

33:12

the thing the spoken

33:14

thing that people say in real life and

33:16

making it to the song and

33:18

including,

33:18

it's me, Kai,

33:20

It's just the thing the things that you don't think

33:22

of as lyrics work often work

33:25

the best as

33:26

as a lyric.

33:28

But And

33:28

also, the bit about the

33:31

my

33:31

covert narcissism, my disguise, is

33:33

altruism, like some kind of congressman,

33:36

is an

33:36

amazing fit of self evaluation. She was

33:38

always great at doing kind of like the

33:40

glad handing part of her job,

33:43

like she's running for office. So you can

33:45

see her you've ever watched her

33:47

greet twenty record

33:49

executives in a row. She's incredible at it. It's

33:51

really interesting to see that

33:53

self evaluation of her to put that on the

33:55

record and In British, we were saying before

33:57

we started how many

33:59

famous musicians have had thoughts

34:01

of descendants or daughters

34:03

and loves spowing them over for their

34:05

inheritance, but just talk to

34:07

their lawyer about it instead of putting it in

34:09

and out of record. Again, she'll

34:11

find the drama. She's

34:13

gonna find it, and she's invented a daughter-in-law. That's it.

34:15

She's stressed enough. Her sons

34:17

are not married yet. In

34:18

fact, her sons do not exist.

34:22

Like, it

34:23

it certainly reminds me of in long live where, you

34:25

know, she's having this beautiful moment

34:27

that, you know,

34:29

high graduation or the homecoming dance or some kind of high

34:32

school triumph in moment and she turns

34:34

her boyfriend. She's like,

34:34

by the way, you'll stay with me

34:38

forever. But If we break up okay. You have to tell your kids about

34:40

me and you have to show them my picture

34:42

and pass on my message

34:46

to them. and

34:46

it's it's like we'd have been jumping so many so many steps

34:48

ahead when to get a perfectly perfectly

34:50

nice secure landing to end

34:53

the song on. And that's

34:55

kinda going on here. I love that she's already having drama with her

34:58

daughter's in law. I just I just think

35:00

that's a beautiful thing. In terms of putting her

35:02

on funeral in a video, I was watching it. I

35:04

was like, I'd be

35:06

way too superstitious to try something like

35:08

that. So

35:08

track force, snow

35:11

on the beach. snow at the beach. We

35:14

are fucking beautiful, buying

35:16

in a dream, stars,

35:18

but You know

35:20

what? interestingly,

35:21

it kind of leaves room

35:24

for an actual duet

35:26

between Taylor Swift and London. Right? because

35:28

it's a lot of intertwined vocals

35:30

more than back and forth. The

35:32

one cocaine

35:33

reference on the album to be snow on the

35:35

beach, which is a killer in

35:37

Lana. but we get it on vigilant who shit. I wanted that

35:39

to be the Norman kind of

35:42

folklore e type of guitar moment if there was

35:44

gonna be one on

35:46

the album. But

35:46

I love I love the song. I love that janet

35:48

line. I think that's, like, absolutely great and

35:50

so good. I

35:52

love it.

35:52

I don't hear much Lana in it. I

35:54

don't I don't really hear her voice. Yeah.

35:56

The

35:57

melody is definitely a tailor

35:59

melody, not a

35:59

Lana melody. It

36:01

sounds almost more like a Lana Taylor song than a than

36:03

a true duet. Yeah. One of my

36:05

favorite lines in the whole

36:05

album is on that song was my flight

36:08

was awful.

36:10

Thanks for asking. It's just, again, a great thing to put in the

36:12

song. You're on your

36:14

own kit. I see the great

36:16

escape

36:16

so long days in

36:20

May.

36:20

I beg the pedals, he loves me. No.

36:22

So What a great track

36:25

five? It's okay. love

36:27

referential tailor. There's another song which talks very

36:30

explicitly about girlhood. What I love when

36:31

she kind of deconstructs that and

36:34

talks about

36:36

it especially from

36:36

the vantage point of someone who really built her

36:38

career on being

36:39

this voice to teenage

36:42

girlhood and,

36:44

like, kind of real raw emotions that she was facing

36:46

in her teen years and

36:47

kind of representing that for something for fans. I

36:49

love this song because it

36:52

feels like pulling apart

36:54

so many of those songs that we got from her early

36:56

on like Tim McGraw. Is when

36:58

you think

37:00

Tim McGraw, I hope you dig my favorite

37:02

song. And

37:06

our song

37:16

off to my guitar.

37:18

He is a reason for the

37:20

two drops to my

37:22

guitar. The only thing that

37:24

keeps me in this room. He feels like,

37:25

you know, like, really deconstructing, like, why she was

37:27

writing these songs? Like, what sort of is that,

37:29

like, origin story to, like, why she felt

37:31

so compelled to,

37:34

you know, take out her

37:36

guitar and, like, sing about the the

37:38

boys that broke

37:38

her heart. Very archery in

37:40

a lot of ways, but told

37:42

from a kind of different perspective,

37:44

like, told,

37:44

like, a little bit earlier in her life. Like, it's just kind of

37:47

really, really beautiful in such a stunning song, and I absolutely adore

37:49

this one. I hosted parties and star

37:51

of my body just

37:54

also something that she's talked about -- Yeah. -- but to have it

37:56

put in the song so powerfully is

37:58

really incredible. And and

38:00

also, I think the first

38:03

Steven King reference in the entire

38:05

Taylor Swift discography

38:06

is when she compares herself.

38:08

because in the bridge, she jumps

38:10

ahead into the future and kinda looks

38:13

back. And when she says, I looked around

38:15

in a blood soaked gown, she's rather

38:17

brilliantly comparing her

38:19

her

38:20

period of public

38:22

disapproval to

38:24

Carrie, which I absolutely

38:26

love.

38:26

Let's go to

38:28

midnight rain. And, Rob, you were saying this

38:30

is the one that one of the ones that grew on you.

38:32

Blackbirds

38:33

are way slammed. For

38:35

the

38:35

gates, full of fences, pet and queens,

38:37

and different times. The sort

38:40

of vocal

38:42

duet is really kinda fantastic. Once I lived

38:44

along, he was daylight,

38:44

I was I was midnight rain.

38:48

Very also a very Joanie

38:50

Mitchell who Jira kinda line or a monzilada

38:52

Coyote. You know, it's Don.

38:54

I'm I'm in in the studio with my reel

38:56

to reel and, you know, you're on the farm

38:59

beating your horses. Mine's of that kind

39:00

of a The Prince Jones thing. We might say

39:02

a lot of a lot of evermore songs, like so much

39:05

of evermore really was a lot of

39:07

these characters struggling with

39:10

being married about what that meant to

39:12

be a wife. There's all these different kind

39:14

of takes on, like, leaving sort of the

39:16

the small town life and kind

39:18

of moving it like Dorothy and

39:22

you know, tisidamp season, like, a lot of those songs dealt with

39:24

this idea of what it means to

39:26

choose

39:26

your your career or something

39:28

other than the traditional path

39:29

of

39:32

being a

39:32

bride or being a wife. And I think that, you

39:34

know, kind of hearing from this perspective also

39:36

reminds me a little bit of, like, back December, which you talked

39:39

about earlier. Like, this, you know, she is the character who's breaking

39:41

the

39:41

heart. She is the one who is, like, you

39:43

know, after we just had, you're on your own kid,

39:45

where she's had her heart very severely broken

39:47

by someone and she's trying to

39:49

turn that around. Now she's recognizing I

39:52

did this. I was the one who could not stick with

39:54

this relationship and that this is my

39:56

fault that this cannot

39:58

work out. I'm

39:58

always keying in on the most confessional line

39:59

in the song. I broke his heart because he was

40:02

nice as a great little

40:04

confession there. And

40:06

and then I as I said on

40:08

Twitter, there's the part where she says

40:10

at the end where she says and he never thinks

40:12

of me except for when I'm on TV,

40:14

which is what I

40:16

would call the the reverse hack and sack.

40:18

Rarely attempted a full reverse

40:20

hack and sack right there. too.

40:24

And if you ever get

40:26

back to back

40:28

in a sec. Yeah.

40:30

Exactly.

40:30

Like, chasing that Amy, stay the same. All of

40:32

me changed like midnight. It was

40:34

also

40:34

really great too. Another another very

40:37

nineties r and b, like,

40:40

Boho

40:40

R and B trip hop kind of thing. This is another one that reminds me

40:42

of the velvet Ropula. One of

40:44

the most insanely underrated albums in

40:47

terms of how many great

40:49

albums it's influenced over the past thirty

40:51

years, but it's you know, this this

40:53

to me

40:54

sounds like a really, like, velvet rope sort

40:56

of inspired song. In that rain is one of the songs

40:58

and there's a bunch of the album that also just really

41:00

great with the vocal layers and harmony.

41:03

I know that when Jack works with

41:05

the artists, I know that one of

41:06

the things that's fun is to sit around just try harmonies. I

41:08

hear that as much as ever on this,

41:11

tell her how much. She's

41:14

of really, really amazing vocal layering in addition

41:17

to altered voice.

41:20

And

41:20

so number seven,

41:24

Question. Good girl,

41:26

sad boy, big city,

41:28

wrong choices. We got one thing

41:30

going on. Oh,

41:31

it's very a look at.

41:33

I love when she posts a lot of

41:35

lot of questions to a

41:36

either current or former lover, you know.

41:38

Like, I think it's just a really

41:41

it's a fun little

41:42

song. I love I love I love that sort of bubble gum

41:44

fun fluffy sort of since moments

41:46

on here because that's that's what I

41:48

I

41:49

really want it from the album. That that

41:51

was my my dream for it. I was like,

41:53

I cannot do

41:54

another extremely bad one.

41:56

So just for My own

41:58

mental health. We needed to move to

41:59

something a little lighter. Pretty pretty

42:02

much You mentioned this one is one that

42:04

was kind

42:06

of punching a few theoretical bells.

42:08

Listen. I

42:09

again. You too.

42:12

You too. So

42:14

it's

42:14

not I don't think I've seen it confirmed anywhere. I didn't

42:16

see

42:16

even the credits as, like, a full, like, sort of

42:18

sample, but there's a lot of theories, and

42:20

it does sound very reminiscent of out

42:23

of the woods. from nineteen eighty

42:24

nine, famous famous

42:26

Taylor song

42:26

as we we all The ultimate.

42:29

I I just think, you know, when you

42:31

take a look at some lyrics, like, you

42:33

know, can I ask you a question? Do you ever have someone kiss you

42:35

in a crowded room? I it just brings

42:37

me back to the New Year's Eve photos. You

42:39

know, there's a lot

42:42

of miscommunication. much like the unspoken dialogue between

42:44

them. And, you know, I

42:45

I think it's like a fun it's a

42:47

fun theory especially after kind

42:49

of having that grammy reunion, which for the sailors,

42:51

was, you know, very a a great set

42:54

of photos.

42:54

But, like, you know,

42:56

I think stuff like that, it's

43:00

I I

43:00

just I just see it and it it seems like it's the moment. Seems

43:02

like it's a thread has continued

43:04

to question. And, Cino, if

43:06

this is

43:06

a sleepless night, that's that's one the

43:09

sleep of sleep. It seems like

43:10

you're talking about some of the head in that visible

43:12

string that's tying all these things. Yeah.

43:15

Yeah. But

43:16

again, not to speculate on her privately. Like

43:20

and every single one of your friends is making fun of you.

43:22

I can

43:22

see the the one direction boys doing

43:26

that. They were just, you know, silly

43:28

and young. Like, I could

43:29

see them making fun of them.

43:31

So anyway Definitely,

43:32

Zen. Zen on under

43:35

premise. Absolutely. So That's just just a

43:37

little theory

43:37

I have going. It's just

43:39

a fun kinda light

43:42

fluffy song, and I I love

43:44

a light a buffy song. I love the

43:46

glitter gel pen size. The glitter gel pen tailored songs are not for everyone,

43:48

but they are for me. That is one

43:50

of my favorite

43:51

things she's ever

43:54

said about her songwriting catalog. Yeah. Britney is

43:56

referring to the amazing playlist that she did

43:58

of breaking her songs down into,

43:59

fountain

44:00

pen songs, quil pin

44:03

songs, glitter gel pin songs. Honestly, that's so

44:05

brilliant. That's that's something that, like, I've

44:07

That's very ass. So apt. And it's so, like

44:10

Yeah. And

44:12

It seems like something you would say Britney. It's it's just so brilliant

44:14

in terms of what I'm

44:16

rewriting the syllabus as we speak.

44:19

Around -- Yes. -- that's three times.

44:21

I am quilt. I am

44:23

quilt. Quilt.

44:24

Quiltpin quiltpin Taylor

44:26

fans. We got wind and dined

44:28

like crazy. on folklore, we knew we weren't gonna

44:31

get a feast like that again. We knew that

44:33

that was supposed to tide us

44:35

over for a while. And

44:36

the glitter gel pen fans were were hungry.

44:38

We were starving and they'd waited their turn. They were

44:41

I can only last on on

44:43

lover for so young. noticed

44:46

that in the interrectum,

44:48

lover went from this weirdly

44:50

maligned compound that was that was

44:52

so dis missed a couple years

44:54

ago is like a compromise as as like

44:56

the flop that somehow folklore is

44:58

rebounding from. And that -- Yeah. -- over

45:00

the past year, it's become her

45:02

biggest album. Every week, it's her ice charting album, like,

45:04

cruel summer has become

45:06

so popular by not being a single

45:08

that now it looks brilliant that she never

45:10

made it a single.

45:12

That by being the summer single that never was, she's made it

45:14

her ultimate summer song. People dream high in

45:17

the quiet of the night

45:18

and know that I caught it.

45:21

I will say it's

45:24

been the

45:25

album that I feel like I've returned to

45:27

the most this year.

45:28

For some

45:29

reason, something about lover has

45:31

gotten a

45:32

a grip on me in a way that I did

45:34

not realize it would

45:35

end up feeling so so much higher in my my Taylor

45:38

album ranking of late. because I've been

45:40

corneoli Street in daylight. This does feel

45:42

very, you know, I

45:44

feel like very close to lover and kind of in that sort of vein what

45:46

lover was starting to do and kind of

45:48

is continued on this sonically at

45:50

least. Totally. But but I think

45:53

I I think part of the problem with people's

45:56

incorrectly evaluating lover was that

45:58

they got stuck on the on

45:59

the single me.

46:01

And one

46:07

of the

46:10

things that's been brilliant about

46:12

Taylor Post lover. Is there is

46:14

she hasn't she's just

46:16

me

46:19

did feel like rightly or wrongly. It did feel

46:21

like a single that was trying to be a single

46:23

-- Mhmm. -- and she hasn't

46:26

written that

46:28

since. I think there's probably a

46:30

couple huge hits on this album, but it's it's more in a

46:32

a totally pure album artist

46:35

way without even an attempt at something like

46:38

me. Yeah. I think she's she's

46:40

realized that there's no point in

46:42

trying to, like, be part

46:44

of the the way that, like, number

46:46

one singles kinda you know, it's like it's

46:48

so it's so all over the

46:49

place now. It's not as simple as just, like, promoting

46:51

a song and then it kinda

46:53

becomes a big hit. Like, some songs

46:55

hit. Some songs don't. Some songs, you know,

46:57

they hit because they take off in a

46:59

sort of viral fashion. Some songs just happen

47:01

to be really big. Like, you

47:02

know, I feel like she's kind of been like, I don't

47:04

need to do this

47:05

anymore and also doesn't have to kind of, like,

47:07

poke something into becoming

47:09

like a massive

47:12

success

47:12

for her. And I'm really

47:13

glad. And also, you know, again, like, that like you said,

47:15

in a lot of it gets misconstrued and,

47:17

like, the idea of what

47:18

people had of reputation or

47:21

lover so different

47:22

than what those Apple albums actually are. And

47:24

I think if we had only

47:25

heard anti hero for or any of these songs

47:27

first, like, that would have still been a

47:30

misdirection from you know, other

47:32

moments on

47:32

the album. Like, I feel like, you know, those lines

47:34

on anti hero that we we love would

47:36

have been so so much more divisive

47:38

and so much more, like, laser

47:40

focused type of, like, you know, anger

47:42

towards her kind of

47:42

having these, like, you know, like, the sexy baby

47:44

line and, like, the daughter-in-law moment. Like, you

47:46

know, people would have just, like, been, like,

47:49

what is the, you know, it's and I think, especially in the context of

47:51

the album, it makes so much more

47:54

sense. And, I mean, in the

47:55

in the cruel summer thing,

47:57

I mean, as I've said, it it decided on its own to become a

47:59

single. It didn't matter what Taylor

48:01

wanted for it. And it also, I guess, it was in

48:03

at least one Netflix

48:05

show She always knew she was a smash. I think we'll never I think that's

48:07

a good question for her as why that never came out

48:09

as a single. I do remain curious about that because that

48:12

is such a think it was just the

48:14

pandemic. Yeah. I think it was I think it was

48:16

slated to be the summer bop of twenty

48:18

twenty. Yeah. And I think that because she had

48:20

to love her fast and everything.

48:22

think she was holding it back to be the summer the summer twenty twenty,

48:24

and then summer twenty twenty didn't

48:26

didn't happen. Putting cruel summer on

48:28

a summer where, like, no one go

48:31

outside. I know. That would have been a

48:33

real that's cruel. Like, that would have been a

48:35

weird time for her to be,

48:37

like, actually, we're trying the song out. Like,

48:39

it just wouldn't have worked. And she loved the

48:41

songs that were much more, like,

48:43

big and

48:44

and sort of,

48:46

like, you know, just felt like they

48:48

could overtake the the

48:50

pop moment in a

48:51

lot of ways. The very

48:53

first time at a

48:55

secret session when

48:56

I heard that song and I mean,

48:58

she introduced it as a box. So it's not like she didn't know she's

49:01

not, you know, she can hear her own music.

49:03

She knew she she knew what

49:05

it was. Regardless, it is a single,

49:07

it is a hit. has a lot of music to play when she tours.

49:10

And I think we know we're getting Pearl

49:12

Summer and ten minute all too well, I think,

49:14

are are

49:16

roughly I would hope our locks matter the the setlist.

49:18

Yeah. She fell too well off the

49:20

nineteen eighty nine towards setlist.

49:23

Nothing is a lock. Nothing is a

49:26

lock. I hope like

49:27

like Britney that this will

49:29

be a tour if

49:31

there is a you and figuring there probably

49:33

will be that, you know, that they'll

49:35

be mixing up the set list because, you

49:37

know -- Yeah. -- so

49:39

good at that always loved the moment on the

49:41

reputation tour where there was a wildcard acoustic song every

49:44

night for her to be able to do that, like,

49:46

especially if she's

49:46

doing multiple nights in the same city to

49:50

have You know? Mhmm. She's got so many deep cuts. But, yeah,

49:52

it's like nothing's unlocked at this point. Yeah.

49:54

The how to handle touring and

49:56

how to play all this music, which

49:58

the Wall Street Journal presented today in an article that said it was a it was a

50:00

huge problem for her, which is a very funny

50:03

way of framing it. Huge problem for Taylor

50:05

Swift. She she how

50:07

are she gonna have time to

50:09

spend all our money. It's a long match -- Yeah. -- that kind of, you know,

50:11

what a terrible dilemma. I feel so bad for her that

50:13

she's released all this great

50:15

music. It's really how how

50:17

will she as an artist survive

50:20

releasing all these classics in a row? I think the

50:22

Wall Street Journal is on it. She may

50:24

just survive that that difficult

50:25

issue. She will we're not syncing them back from

50:28

this flop. I think it's like I think

50:30

having some great songs. I think, you

50:32

know. So

50:34

number eight, I didn't know until Britney told me that that some people don't like

50:36

this song, but vigilant anti

50:37

shit. You did some bad

50:39

things, but I'm lower

50:41

of the

50:42

Sometimes I wonder

50:44

which

50:46

one will be

50:46

your last one. Which I've seen so

50:47

much hate for it. So interesting. Is

50:50

this on TikTok? Are people doing

50:51

their

50:52

anti vigilantes shit TikToks?

50:54

No. I've seen, like,

50:55

tweets and people really do

50:57

not like vigilantes. shit. Like, I've seen a lot

50:59

people. don't it. love when when

51:00

Taylor tries to be sinister because she's not

51:02

really good at being sinister. And

51:05

I think that's the fun of it. That's why I relate. It's like Why

51:08

I relate. This is what I would sound

51:10

like. If I would try It's like a goth

51:12

hell of a big doll, you know.

51:14

It's like not convincing. Like, you're not you're not selling me. That

51:16

sounds so cool.

51:20

I mean,

51:20

i mean

51:21

sonically and lyrically, this

51:24

could be a reputation track. It has It's

51:26

it's the it's full reputation. This

51:28

is back to that industrial

51:31

area for sure. And

51:34

obviously, it's about one

51:35

or two of the businessmen

51:37

that she interacted with in a

51:40

negative fashion over past years without

51:42

being more specific, it

51:44

appears to suggest that if we were to take

51:46

it literally, the the narrator of this

51:48

song, let's just say, seems to have reported

51:50

something to the FBI,

51:52

interesting, which I guess

51:54

is the literal vigilante

51:56

shit being referred to. interesting.

51:59

And then the narrator seems to have

52:01

befriended someone's ex wife. Again, you know,

52:03

I think there was a

52:05

brief moment, people thought this was a kind of thing, but III

52:08

really don't think so. I think this is about

52:10

her business

52:12

issues. He was doing lines

52:14

and crossing off mine. Pretty good.

52:16

Yeah.

52:17

Good. I mean, I I do

52:19

not think that the song is

52:21

about came in Kanye, but I think it would

52:23

have been really funny if Kim

52:25

had posted the the, like,

52:27

ex wife line about, like, she's

52:29

dressed for revenge. and

52:31

just logged off Instagram, you know,

52:33

and just

52:33

did that. Like, I posted, like, a screenshot

52:35

with

52:35

the individual anti shit and, like, just logged off.

52:37

Like, I think that would have been obtained

52:39

certainly would have broken the Internet to

52:42

cameras, but My

52:44

gut tells me that that's not a

52:46

bridge that's going to be mended

52:48

Probably not. But But I I just love the idea, especially

52:51

with everything else going on right now.

52:53

I would just So bajoule.

52:56

Let's believe I'm

52:57

still bajoule. When I walk in the room,

52:59

I could still make the whole day

53:01

shout out. And when I make the bandway,

53:03

as soon as you

53:05

have them. is this is

53:07

the one. I love the song so

53:08

much. It just it reminds

53:10

me a lot

53:11

of gorgeous, like, the

53:13

kind of,

53:13

like, again, like, the the bubbly sort of

53:15

sound to it, just kind of,

53:17

like, the song sparkles. Like, it's, like, a little bit

53:19

of mirror ball. It's a little bit of gorgeous. Like, it

53:21

has that kind of, like, fun

53:22

thing thematically. It reminds me a lot of jealous by Beyonce that kind

53:24

of like, well, if you're not gonna

53:26

appreciate

53:26

me, I'm gonna go out tonight. Don't

53:29

worry about it. I love

53:32

that.

53:34

But it's

53:38

just

53:41

like a really

53:41

fun size, so catchy. I think this would make a great single as well. Like, I think

53:43

it's just like such a a

53:46

fun bubbly, probably and

53:48

another very petty song. Like, she,

53:50

you know, the different side of petty

53:52

for her. And I love that.

53:54

i that Yes.

53:55

It's very I mean, it's

53:57

very Mariball and and yet -- Yeah. --

53:59

I love how it's a totally different side of Mariball.

54:01

You know, Mariball is

54:03

so, like, you know, upfront about the sort of deceiving

54:06

desperation under the sort of party girl

54:08

glitter. And I love how this one is

54:10

just like Wow. It it

54:12

it doesn't even have that sort of, you

54:14

know, confession

54:15

aspect of of mirror ball.

54:17

It's just pure desperation. It's

54:19

just, like, like, you know, I'm

54:21

dancing as hard as I can kind of song.

54:23

Sounds like somebody's ready for a breakdown.

54:25

So, really, I got

54:27

a fascinating song. Also, musically, like,

54:30

the the the similarity

54:32

to early Depeche mode. Vince Clark,

54:34

Eric Depeche

54:36

mode. This is straight up, like, speak and spell, air, dipesh

54:40

mode

54:40

song. I

54:48

applaud I

54:48

applaud this development in her

54:50

songbook. I won hundred percent hear that

54:54

Absolutely. Yeah. I I love the cadence of

54:56

the the chorus too, like, the familiarity

54:58

breeds contempt. So put me in the basement when

55:00

I want the penthouse of your

55:01

heart. Just the white the

55:02

the cadence and rhythm of that part, I absolutely

55:04

love. This song scratches an itch in

55:06

my brain that I didn't realize I had.

55:09

It completely like, destroys me also. Like, I love like that.

55:11

It's, you know, it's very much I might say

55:13

a lot of evermore. And we're way

55:14

songs that she described in evermore is her

55:17

trilogy of unhappily ever after

55:19

married. songs. Yeah. This

55:20

it's also a very getaway car in

55:22

that way too. Like, you know, the

55:24

love

55:24

when especially if

55:26

not, like, just Taylor sort of playing a

55:28

little bit more with, like, her

55:30

as kind of

55:32

the the the

55:32

person doing bad thing in relationship and

55:35

sometimes to kind of offset something else bad happening or if

55:37

it's, you know, kind of taking

55:38

the taking the blame for for what's

55:41

happening. But,

55:41

you know, this one's kind of a fun

55:43

one of, like, you

55:44

know, well, if you're gonna be a a terrible partner, I'm

55:46

gonna go to a

55:47

party. And I'm gonna dress up. I'm

55:49

gonna have a fun

55:52

time. Yes. And if someone asks me if I have a man, I don't have to

55:54

say anything. Say, I don't remember. I love

55:56

that. Also, the detail of the

55:58

band asked, did I have a man?

55:59

It's like, She's had a very

56:02

wild night ahead of her.

56:03

Yes.

56:04

Wave balances desperation

56:08

and the you know, and and the the sort of, like,

56:10

almost, like, pathological

56:12

obsessive urge

56:13

to sparkle, you

56:16

know, beyond

56:16

any kind of pleasure principle involved. You know, like, it's really kind

56:19

of just a fascinating song. Like, going

56:21

into labyrinth, this whole stretch of the

56:23

album, like, this, you know,

56:26

this is This is a side too. This is a side

56:28

too. This is a side

56:30

too like banger after banger on

56:32

side too. and

56:34

vigilant to shit into pajules

56:36

into labyrinth is like just a

56:38

perfect three song run.

56:46

When I was talking about her vocal

56:47

range and

56:50

and we're singing. This is

56:51

definitely, like, almost like a the

56:54

the

56:54

sense and the vocals, it almost almost take

56:56

you into a a Kate Bush area, just

56:59

really gorgeous. But, like, a hounds will have,

57:01

like, the opening. Yeah. It's

57:03

got you know,

57:04

and this is Taylor's done kind of,

57:06

like, Kate Bush kind of songs before this

57:09

Also, like, I love how this one, it's it's really

57:11

weird how it's, you know, I

57:13

think it's

57:14

got

57:15

less verbal content possibly than

57:17

any other song on the album. It's like really, really minimal. It

57:19

kinda corners where she's just like repeating the

57:21

same line over and

57:24

over again. and

57:25

just like one metaphor,

57:26

which is like, I I totally

57:29

love. And hits different, which, you

57:31

know, hasn't hasn't been formally

57:33

released yet, but, like, the lyrics are online. There's this great

57:35

line in it about, you know, like I'm

57:37

like, you know, picking one metaphor

57:39

per song now. is like just kind of

57:41

a funny thing for her to say. You know,

57:44

she is she is the queen of y one metaphor

57:46

when you could have twenty two, like, in the

57:48

same line. But I love how she just, like, she just goes with

57:50

elevators and she just sings that really weird thing

57:52

about elevators, then just, like, backs

57:54

away and lets that sit there ticking for the rest of

57:56

the song. A

57:58

fantastic piece of that line. because I went this

57:59

So beautiful.

58:02

I was playing a game

58:03

where I was trying to find any guitar

58:05

before I check the credits this is

58:07

one of the ones where I I thought I heard one sneaking in and the

58:09

credits confirmed that. So once in a while, they would sneak one

58:11

in. A very different,

58:14

very beautiful song and

58:16

with a great little fore and the fore

58:18

thing happening and just,

58:20

again, absolutely

58:21

gorgeous since this is in recent

58:23

memory, like, one of the most beautiful

58:25

sent albums overall. I would say

58:27

this this album. And I I hope

58:29

to talk to Jack about this. I wanna

58:31

know how many different because he uses he he he

58:33

doesn't just do software and plug and he uses vintage keyboards. I

58:35

wanna know how many different vintage keyboards are on

58:37

this app because it

58:39

My guess listening to it is roughly three

58:42

hundred. I guess, often

58:44

sometimes forty on the same song, like

58:46

one over here. one in the middle -- Yeah. -- one

58:48

in the back of your issue. really has that

58:51

I I really wanna know what kind of, like, keyboards

58:53

were used on vigilantes shit.

58:55

Yeah. really it off too. Jack is, like, at that little,

58:57

like, one,

58:58

like, little wad at wad

59:00

at, you know. So it's,

59:02

like, a whole lot of people know

59:04

exactly what keyboard was that just by hearing that,

59:06

not me, but Yeah.

59:08

Jack Jack has gone

59:10

shopping. I believe also it's real inno energy in

59:12

the song too. It's very another Greek world.

59:14

Yeah. It's yeah. It's

59:16

it's just like a really,

59:18

like,

59:20

Just really a a

59:21

song that comes on very simple in some ways on

59:23

the surface and is

59:24

so complex once you start, like, listening to

59:26

it over and over again.

59:30

No.

59:30

And this is I mean, I feel like the song is very

59:32

representative of, you know, of theme

59:34

that

59:34

is still relatively new for Taylor that

59:37

has now become her favorite theme, which is, like,

59:39

finding

59:39

a great love in sort of

59:41

the worst and, you know, darkest

59:44

moments of your life. Like, that's become

59:46

such a reputation

59:46

on. Like, this has been such, like, a a consistent

59:49

way that she's spoken

59:50

about finding great

59:52

love and all of her love

59:53

songs have been sort of centered

59:55

on, you know, like, like, call what you want on the

59:57

surface is, like, the song about all these rumors why and all this, like,

59:59

bad stuff happening. But here you are and you're

1:00:02

great and you don't care about all

1:00:04

this. Like,

1:00:05

that's such like a a common theme now for her to kind of talk about her

1:00:08

relationship and talk about love

1:00:10

and, like, what like, love is sort of,

1:00:12

like,

1:00:12

daylight everything.

1:00:14

Like, the plane's going down. I do not think I would find someone like you

1:00:16

and -- Yeah. -- here you are. Absolutely.

1:00:18

The breathe in,

1:00:19

breathe through, breathe deep,

1:00:21

breathe out one. was quoted

1:00:24

in her New York University commencement

1:00:26

speech. Yes. Sit for that. I would

1:00:28

just say that I thought the plane was going down,

1:00:30

how to turn it right around is sort of

1:00:32

a summation of the entire album reputation in one line, which is

1:00:34

-- Yeah. -- also also impressive. Elevator's

1:00:37

thing, it it's so out of nowhere. It really

1:00:40

grabs,

1:00:42

like, Every time through, it's so jarring, you know, like -- Yeah. --

1:00:44

and I I just love the really minimalistic

1:00:46

chorus. Sorry, like, I I hope

1:00:48

it's okay to bring up Gloria

1:00:50

Estefan. I'm you know, like

1:00:52

-- Absolutely. --

1:00:52

it's always a scary

1:00:55

estifant fan. One of my

1:00:57

favorite Miami sound machine hits

1:00:59

From

1:00:59

the eighties, uh-oh,

1:01:02

fallen in love, very like, you

1:01:04

know, forgotten, underrated, deep

1:01:06

cut in the glory

1:01:08

Estefan songbook. Not forgotten by Taylor Allison Swift, now

1:01:10

his

1:01:17

I just

1:01:20

totally love, like, how

1:01:21

you know, and it that song is

1:01:24

just, you know, echoed just so beautifully

1:01:26

in this one. Yeah. Always

1:01:28

always here for somebody who can go

1:01:30

that deep into the glorious defined catalog.

1:01:33

God, I love Maria.

1:01:34

It cuts both

1:01:36

ways is

1:01:39

what it does.

1:01:40

Alright. You you can drink. Gloria

1:01:42

Estefan as well. Just go ahead and

1:01:44

have a drink. Track

1:01:47

eleven. Karma. You're

1:01:49

talking shit with a hell of it.

1:01:51

I

1:01:52

think it's a two bit trail, but you're

1:01:54

relevant. You're very fine.

1:01:56

Great hook. I mean,

1:01:59

her

1:01:59

incredible look. Probably, like, my

1:02:02

favorite favorite course on the

1:02:04

album. Like, it is just, like,

1:02:06

so fun Yeah. I mean, again, she's

1:02:08

not she's not convincing

1:02:10

sinister person. Like, I'm sorry.

1:02:12

It's like a stuffed animal

1:02:14

holding a knife. Like, what's he gonna do?

1:02:16

I I just, you know,

1:02:17

it's like she's when she tries and when she

1:02:19

like, you know, she'll again,

1:02:21

like, the the songs when she's laying out the calculated

1:02:23

stuff, like, yes. But,

1:02:24

like, when she's

1:02:25

trying to be sort of, like, very much like this,

1:02:27

I love that. I love I love a

1:02:29

little kind of,

1:02:30

like,

1:02:31

dark pathway from from Taylor,

1:02:33

but this one she's, you know, she kind of lets it

1:02:35

be like a little brighter

1:02:37

and kind of sillier and

1:02:39

fun. And, yeah,

1:02:39

karma is karma is my

1:02:42

boyfriend. You know, karma is

1:02:43

the breeze in my hair on the weekends. Like, I

1:02:45

love that. It's just so, like,

1:02:47

so catchy. It's so catchy. I

1:02:49

gotta say, any any chorus that

1:02:51

can make me like a

1:02:53

song called Karma? is

1:02:54

but that's that's a level songwriting. This is

1:02:57

the song that I was dreading. This is

1:02:59

the one that I was like, skip

1:03:02

this

1:03:02

the first time? Like,

1:03:04

I really I was like, I don't know

1:03:06

if I can go with, you know, like, three minutes of

1:03:08

a pop star thing if a karma always like,

1:03:11

and such unhappy memories. Not even

1:03:14

Karma Kamilian. I love Karma

1:03:16

Kamilian. It's in Karma.

1:03:18

Yeah. Like, Yeah.

1:03:20

But karma police you know,

1:03:22

even karma police is kind of, you know,

1:03:24

kinda shabby. Yeah. That

1:03:26

whole era Rick Taylor was

1:03:28

talking about karma all the time in interviews. I

1:03:30

was like, I don't know if it

1:03:31

happened memories of that particular

1:03:33

phase of of of the publicity campaign. I I just

1:03:35

kind of like so I was

1:03:37

really just flat out planning

1:03:40

on on aiding

1:03:42

this song. and it's so

1:03:44

good. Also, I love how it's

1:03:46

so serene and spiritual and

1:03:48

enlightened, and then it pauses halfway through the

1:03:50

chorus to say, Yeah. Yeah. By

1:03:52

the way, like, my karma is good. Aren't

1:03:54

you envious that yours isn't? I

1:03:56

completely love that. It's kinda like as as

1:03:58

you would say that the teddy bear holding the

1:03:59

knife moment. It's like Yeah. It's like

1:04:02

you you broke

1:04:02

concentration and meditation for just

1:04:05

a moment to Yeah.

1:04:07

I think also,

1:04:08

like, the kind of

1:04:10

watching your

1:04:10

your enemies destroy themselves is,

1:04:13

I

1:04:13

think, like, my my favorite

1:04:16

sort of Taylor putty. Right? Like, it's

1:04:17

like, I

1:04:18

can just watch you

1:04:19

do this all on your own without me

1:04:21

having to do anything to, like, to

1:04:23

do like, to, you know, make your life worse.

1:04:25

Like, you can you can take care of this just fight

1:04:27

on your own. And I

1:04:28

love that as, like, a very kind of,

1:04:30

like,

1:04:30

petty sort of statement.

1:04:33

I think she's saying

1:04:34

she is the karma police.

1:04:36

Number one. I think George Harrison had a

1:04:38

deleted song called him to karma as my boyfriend

1:04:40

around nineteen seventy seven. That's scapped it,

1:04:42

unfortunately. I wish your characters alive for many reasons. It's specifically

1:04:45

though so that you could hear this song when it

1:04:47

gets to the chorus line in his

1:04:49

reaction. Oh, like he wouldn't be playing guitar on

1:04:51

it. Are you kidding?

1:04:54

He'd be singing along. Yes,

1:04:56

he would. That was my boyfriend.

1:04:58

So much a comment. There'd be dialogue with me. No, Taylor. I thought

1:05:00

I told you a comment is my boyfriend. I

1:05:04

told you George I'm a lever, not a fighter.

1:05:06

The Yes. He would be all over

1:05:08

this up. Carmen is a cat.

1:05:10

Totally love

1:05:11

that. A great pop hook. I mean,

1:05:13

also another, like, you know, just like

1:05:15

a great flex for

1:05:18

how how great she is

1:05:20

and kind of, you know, was with pop

1:05:22

music especially pre even pre, like,

1:05:24

back smart enough course. Like, it's just, like, so

1:05:26

fun to kind of see. I think

1:05:28

people doubted her ability to do that

1:05:30

without Max,

1:05:31

like, kind of do, like, these big pop songs,

1:05:33

like, early on in her career. and I think,

1:05:35

like, you know, for her to just continue writing, like, these, like,

1:05:37

incredible hooks, regardless of having sort of, like, a

1:05:39

a pops of art on there. Like, it's just, like, such

1:05:42

a great really

1:05:44

just like classic like pop hook on there. So now

1:05:46

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1:06:49

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1:06:52

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1:06:54

distance who broke ground as the

1:06:56

first true

1:06:58

influencer by a remarkable

1:07:00

life. Her name, Elizabeth

1:07:04

Taylor.

1:07:04

I'm Katie

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1:07:10

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1:07:17

wherever

1:07:17

you listen. Track twelve, sweet

1:07:19

nothing is the

1:07:22

sonic departure. on

1:07:23

the album.

1:07:32

and it gave

1:07:35

me actual goosebumps when I

1:07:37

first heard the the gorgeous horns coming

1:07:39

in. It's a very simple production.

1:07:41

It's mostly electric panel. And

1:07:43

then what I think are real horns come in

1:07:45

and is gorgeous. I know that,

1:07:47

you know, Britney for someone who's

1:07:49

really enjoying the the synth, but

1:07:51

of can be little jarring. I do skip it.

1:07:54

I haven't

1:07:54

seen it on my

1:07:55

last lessons.

1:07:58

I, you

1:07:59

know, I like the song. I'm

1:07:59

happy for Joe. I love that she lets him

1:08:02

raise little songs. And, you

1:08:04

know, they have these cute little moments together,

1:08:06

whatever. They

1:08:08

you know, whatever

1:08:09

their coupley things are. But yeah.

1:08:11

Like, this is not

1:08:13

what I wanted.

1:08:15

I enjoy

1:08:15

it as like a beautiful ballad. And I it's

1:08:17

been a it's

1:08:18

been a skip the last couple

1:08:21

of times. I'm I'm kinda like, okay. We

1:08:23

just have Karma. go mastermind. Let's with Let's keep

1:08:24

being petty. Like, let's keep let's keep

1:08:26

with, you know, calculating a little bop.

1:08:28

It's, you know, it's kinda

1:08:30

it

1:08:30

comes between two songs that I

1:08:32

two sons of a I really just like,

1:08:35

I really amping me Can't you sweet not for the same.

1:08:36

It doesn't

1:08:39

get the same. No. No

1:08:41

one will search and destroy a ballot like Brittany Spanish. You're just, like, it's too late. Yeah. I I'm

1:08:44

specific with my ballot. That's the

1:08:46

thing. Like, I don't like I don't

1:08:48

like like,

1:08:50

a really soft ballad usually. It really if

1:08:53

it's a soft ballad, it has to, like, really cut

1:08:55

deep. Like, it needs to wreck my

1:08:57

life. Like, it needs to actually destroy my will

1:08:59

to live. I love a powerballed. We know I

1:09:01

love a powerballed. But yeah, I was just

1:09:03

able

1:09:04

I wasn't in the mood. I just wasn't

1:09:06

in the mood for a softballed. I'm sure, you know, like, some of the songs on on

1:09:08

lover and other past kind of

1:09:10

valid moments from Taylor. Like, they

1:09:12

kinda come and

1:09:13

go for me. I gotta be

1:09:15

in

1:09:15

a real, like, headspace.

1:09:17

I'm not I'm not in

1:09:19

the suite. Nothing has space right now. I'm

1:09:21

in the Carma is my boyfriend. You know? I polish

1:09:23

up real nice. Like, that,

1:09:27

you know, that that's the head's face. I'm I'm

1:09:29

in. Sweet. Nothing's not your boyfriend.

1:09:31

It's not my boyfriend.

1:09:32

You know? But I I'm

1:09:34

happy for her her and Joe.

1:09:36

I love to write their

1:09:38

little poems together and kinda And he says, your mind.

1:09:40

it he says your mind

1:09:42

I love that. I have the same

1:09:43

thing with exile too. Like, I did not exile was

1:09:46

like a that took me a minute.

1:09:47

exile

1:09:48

took me a minute was

1:09:50

like a little, like, just a beat too slow for me for a And then

1:09:52

one day something happened. Something just like

1:09:54

turned on my brain where

1:09:56

I was like,

1:09:57

I'm well for exile.

1:09:59

I don't know.

1:09:59

It's just Those

1:10:00

always take the longest for me. I'll

1:10:02

tell you, yeah, I I really think it's

1:10:03

a beautiful song. And and when you're in the mood, you'll you'll you'll

1:10:05

it will grow on you. But Oh, I'll check

1:10:07

back in six months. You

1:10:11

know? Yeah. But the the bridge,

1:10:13

again, breaking news, Taylor Swift writes great

1:10:15

bridge. I mean, really surprising.

1:10:18

But The bridge, industry disruptors,

1:10:20

and sold the constructors, and and

1:10:22

smooth talking hucksters out, led, handing

1:10:25

each other. and the

1:10:25

voices that employers should be doing more. To you, I can admit that I'm just too soft for

1:10:27

all of it. I I

1:10:28

just love that final line and

1:10:31

also her delivery of it.

1:10:35

It's Yeah. I I found it really touching, actually. And especially,

1:10:37

it it kind of it actually

1:10:39

is a self revelation of

1:10:41

what you were saying about vigilante shit that

1:10:43

she that you don't find her a hundred percent convincing in the the medicine. And

1:10:45

it's it's her saying I'm too soft for all

1:10:47

of that. Yeah. She's

1:10:49

never been a natural. All she does is try

1:10:51

try try. I love the song. It Brian,

1:10:54

you were talking about the gear head

1:10:55

aspect of this album

1:10:58

that Jack Antinoff has gone

1:11:00

shopping? I

1:11:00

love how there

1:11:01

there was that picture, like, from the the one of the first ones of

1:11:04

the midnight photos

1:11:07

to be released, and she's in the in the room lying

1:11:09

next to this, like, awesome vintage nineteen

1:11:12

seventies where it

1:11:14

lets her keyboard. and Lovehead was

1:11:15

like, okay, is the world gonna be on the

1:11:17

album? And it was like, oh, yes, it is.

1:11:19

It got its own song. This

1:11:22

is such a perfect wordlets or

1:11:24

song. It's it's very very seventies.

1:11:26

And that's something I love. Reminds me of, you

1:11:27

know, like something by, you know, the

1:11:32

climax blues band or something like that or

1:11:34

three dog night. It's it's it's got a real sort of vintage gearhead energy

1:11:38

that I totally love. So we're

1:11:39

almost at the end of midnight's proper. Thanks for speaking

1:11:41

with us. We were on the

1:11:43

final track of

1:11:46

the album proper. But if I told you none of it

1:11:48

was sex at Dental in the first,

1:11:50

not

1:11:50

that you saw me. Nothing. Was

1:11:53

gonna stop me. I played the

1:11:54

game. Perfect. Sorry. calling herself Machiavellian. Never thought

1:11:56

I'd see the dead. Never thought And

1:11:58

we thought about a self

1:11:59

owned. Unbelievable. Yeah.

1:12:03

Stick in Machiavellian. Yes. Absolutely

1:12:05

brilliant. The whole, you know, look, like, none of this

1:12:07

happens by accident.

1:12:08

you know

1:12:09

I'm a

1:12:12

chess player. you know,

1:12:14

that whole aspect of her approach to love and music and life and songwriting,

1:12:20

just Yeah. A brilliant thematic

1:12:22

way to end the album. I just love this song, and it's so surprising and so funny and so great

1:12:28

moving. Yeah.

1:12:29

Again, in in, you know,

1:12:31

breaking news, Taylor Swift writes Great Bridge, sorry to repeat myself. But, like,

1:12:34

I would say of

1:12:37

there

1:12:37

are many lyrics that stop me and my tracks in this album. I think that this is very close to

1:12:39

the top of entire bridge. Mhmm. No one wanted to

1:12:41

play with me as a little kid, so

1:12:44

I've been gaming

1:12:47

like a criminal ever since to make them love me and make

1:12:49

it effortless. This is the first time I

1:12:51

felt the need to confess

1:12:53

and I swear you guys

1:12:54

left out the punch line. I'm only cryptic

1:12:57

in my pavilion because

1:12:59

I care. Yeah. I

1:13:01

So it's a great, like,

1:13:03

a shocking

1:13:03

song. Again -- Yeah. -- very

1:13:05

very miraball. Miraball much. I you

1:13:08

know, miraball has kind of

1:13:10

ruined me for all other songs.

1:13:12

Mirrorball is basically the meteor

1:13:14

strike and everything seems like lame after the meteor strike.

1:13:17

Mirball is such

1:13:20

a perfect Taylor Swift song to me

1:13:22

that that so so many of the songs on this album sound like very much,

1:13:24

like, different reads on on

1:13:26

Mirabelle, but this is, like, Such

1:13:30

a funny one that she's like, look, I told you,

1:13:32

you know, I'm not a natural. You know, like, he didn't fall in love

1:13:34

with me by accident and I don't write these songs by accident and

1:13:38

Also, chest imagery.

1:13:40

And when was the only

1:13:42

other time in her career

1:13:45

she's used chest imagery?

1:13:47

Little and so prominently, dear John. So

1:13:49

she implanted this

1:13:50

song in my brain, and

1:13:53

then she releases this

1:13:55

song on the to bonus three AM

1:13:57

edition. That is just blatantly a sequel

1:13:59

to the

1:13:59

Dear John. Yeah. Unbelievable and a

1:14:02

perfect example of

1:14:03

the mastermind at work. You know,

1:14:05

she plans all this stuff. None

1:14:07

of this

1:14:07

happens by accident. A couple of things that, you know, musically, I would say that the what

1:14:09

Britney was referring to the

1:14:11

song the sound what

1:14:15

Britney was saying about the sound of this song, I would

1:14:17

actually place it in that

1:14:20

microgenre vault that

1:14:22

some people call sithwaive and other people call Outrun,

1:14:24

which is the soundtrack of the movie drive

1:14:26

is a great example of that genre.

1:14:29

And it's very much in that microgenre, which is really

1:14:32

interesting. And a microgenre that

1:14:34

I super actually really

1:14:36

love. But and

1:14:40

then, lyrically, one of the

1:14:42

things I the many things I

1:14:44

love about the sun is the is the twist, which reveals

1:14:46

that while she sees herself as the mastermind, the narrator,

1:14:51

the love interest in this song turns around and said, like,

1:14:53

basically, I let you do it. You know? I

1:14:55

knew you were doing this. I let

1:14:57

you do it. So who was really the mastermind?

1:14:59

Yeah. Which is a great sort of literal twist. Another song with

1:15:01

a twist, of course, would be a

1:15:04

less great American dynasty. What are

1:15:06

other Taylor songs, if any, that

1:15:08

have a twist at the end. The

1:15:10

m night shyamalan lyrical

1:15:10

twist. Dear John very much has one. You know, at the end one,

1:15:12

it changes from I should have known

1:15:15

to you should have known. That's,

1:15:18

you

1:15:18

know, that's a moment and a half.

1:15:20

Also, the archer when it goes from,

1:15:22

you know, they see right through

1:15:24

me. I see right

1:15:26

through me. Mhmm. That's lord. That's a

1:15:28

that's a night filament. That's yes. That that's

1:15:30

a that's a lip

1:15:31

reading scene in two thousand

1:15:34

one. screamer for me. Oh

1:15:36

my god. How red their

1:15:38

lips? He read their

1:15:42

lips. Yes.

1:15:42

So that

1:15:44

is we we have

1:15:46

done the actual album, but, you know,

1:15:48

you know in

1:15:50

for Penney might as well be in for the

1:15:52

whole thing. There's seven more

1:15:54

songs. Take a break, stretch legs,

1:15:56

but here we go. So we'll go

1:15:58

look a little quicker through these through these

1:16:01

bonus tracks because we haven't had as

1:16:03

much time to absorb them as

1:16:05

one reason. But, again, we didn't really know they

1:16:07

were coming there. The biggest clue was that Aaron

1:16:10

Dessner who she worked with on football and

1:16:12

evermore tweeted that not

1:16:14

everything as it as it seems because he's not on the album proper, but he is on three songs of bonus

1:16:20

songs. And let's

1:16:23

start

1:16:24

with the Great

1:16:27

War. She loves

1:16:29

she loves battle imagery. Very

1:16:31

she's always

1:16:33

had some

1:16:34

some, like, you know,

1:16:36

different bout. And

1:16:38

during again, she she loves to find the drama,

1:16:40

she loves to find the

1:16:41

tension. What greater than sort of like a great war

1:16:43

or a great battle or you

1:16:45

know, all of that to kind

1:16:47

of be

1:16:48

the the place where it all plays out

1:16:50

and

1:16:50

also very similar to, you

1:16:51

know, labyrinth and

1:16:54

the

1:16:54

reputation songs where it's like this

1:16:56

mix of, you know, we like, my

1:16:58

hand was the one you reached for all throughout

1:17:00

the great war. You know, it's like that

1:17:02

sort of you know, finding that that moment, that bliss

1:17:05

and that love in the kind

1:17:07

of in the strength.

1:17:09

So good. And this is a and Chidi, this is a

1:17:12

show the World War two song on

1:17:14

folklore. So, like, I love the

1:17:17

Chidi, like, now just, like, just gonna, like,

1:17:19

cycle through, like, all the great military disasters of, like,

1:17:21

it it's kinda like great that.

1:17:23

You know,

1:17:23

she was like, how can I top that?

1:17:25

When I wanna do what about World War one and

1:17:28

she's got you know, the poppy, she's

1:17:30

got, like, real, like, World War one imagery in it. Like, it's just, like, such a brilliance.

1:17:32

Like, that's one that, like,

1:17:34

listening to it at, like, three

1:17:37

AM. Like, today, like, I I was kind of, like, apart from, like, the

1:17:39

shock of, like, oh my god, there are

1:17:41

all these new songs. This is

1:17:43

when we're, like,

1:17:45

this is one relate line after line, I was

1:17:47

just going no way and holy shit out loud. Glad

1:17:49

it was alone and glad it was alone at

1:17:51

the time.

1:17:53

So many surprises in this such a cleverly,

1:17:55

brilliantly done song. Yeah.

1:17:57

It's

1:17:57

Somnically,

1:17:58

it's a

1:17:59

Aaron Desert

1:18:02

production and interesting because to me it it

1:18:06

it suggests Aaron

1:18:08

Desert trying to

1:18:09

fit more into the vibe of

1:18:12

this album. So I I

1:18:13

do I'd love to know the story of, like, you know, how many songs there's

1:18:15

three with him, but I wanna

1:18:18

know how many songs with

1:18:21

him were in the contention for this album because this is definitely

1:18:23

in the vibe of the album. It's not wildly wildly different. Yeah. I think

1:18:25

also just like it seems like

1:18:27

she's just sort of

1:18:28

for the

1:18:31

last two years, posted up pretty exclusively

1:18:33

with Jack and Aaron in terms

1:18:35

of working on both the new material that

1:18:37

we've gone, but also, like, on the rereports,

1:18:39

like, they are the the

1:18:40

people working on the production for that for

1:18:42

those, like, you know, rerecord and also the new songs that we're hearing or

1:18:44

new old

1:18:45

songs that we're hearing on

1:18:48

those. So feel like it's probably it

1:18:50

seems like the way that her musical relationship with the two of them and why it's been so

1:18:52

productive is it just

1:18:54

seems like they're constantly kind of

1:18:57

exchanging ideas and, you know, kind of going doing this back and forth in

1:18:59

the studio where they have this, like, great musical

1:19:03

chemistry constantly.

1:19:06

which is why we ended up getting a, you

1:19:08

know, a a sister album to folklore so

1:19:10

soon after it in twenty twenty. And,

1:19:12

you know, why she kind of was able to

1:19:14

turn out all of those Voalte tracks with the two of

1:19:16

them as well. So so, yeah, I I

1:19:18

kind of I think this is a good

1:19:21

representation of the continuation of that. It seems like she

1:19:23

really And a lot of people were like, why were these songs left

1:19:25

off? You know, like, why didn't we get

1:19:27

the Aaron songs? But she had posted

1:19:29

it on Instagram and it seems like

1:19:31

she really wanted this to be a

1:19:33

drag project. Like, it seems like there was something really special about them working on this together.

1:19:35

Like, she made the i'm working on

1:19:37

this together

1:19:38

a point to he's worked on

1:19:39

all of her albums since nineteen

1:19:41

eighty nine, and he's been the

1:19:43

majority producer on a

1:19:45

lot of those albums, but it seemed like she really specifically

1:19:47

wanted him to be the her partner on this

1:19:50

project, and it seemed

1:19:50

like it was really important for them

1:19:53

to do that, and that

1:19:55

came across very clearly.

1:19:57

I like that she was able to

1:19:59

still find

1:19:59

a way

1:20:00

to kind of make midnight's own thing, but

1:20:02

she was like, you know, the three AM even darker thoughts with Aaron

1:20:04

Dessner.

1:20:07

can also find a place on this and also be

1:20:09

included, but I think she

1:20:10

really wanted to be like such such

1:20:13

a special kind of Jack

1:20:15

and Taylor moment. Totally. I think you're totally

1:20:17

right. Also, this is a different type of songwriting.

1:20:19

Like, these are really, like,

1:20:21

very similar to the big red machine

1:20:23

songs. It's very similar to renegade. It's good about timing. Time's

1:20:26

like these. Little your

1:20:28

damage. Damaged

1:20:30

me. Gary over. Not just in terms of the

1:20:32

mood, but in terms of, you know, like, verbally,

1:20:34

it's very different from the songs on

1:20:37

the album. It's like it's it's much more of a

1:20:39

hyper verbal kind of song -- Yeah. -- very like, you

1:20:41

know, ever more ish in a way. Like you

1:20:43

said, she wanted to respect

1:20:45

the the midnight's project as doing a type of song. You know, it's like it's

1:20:47

like pop miniatures. And,

1:20:52

you know, She wasn't gonna go all

1:20:54

over the place with this album, especially since she was committed to doing it as a single vinyl disc, which is an

1:20:57

experiment she's never

1:21:00

tried before. I mean, this is

1:21:02

the shortest album she's done since her debut. The next song brings us to

1:21:04

bigger than the

1:21:07

whole sky, which is

1:21:09

a beautiful another sort of InOS thing with the

1:21:11

gorgeous keywords and then actually more guitar than probably anything else

1:21:16

on on the whole larger

1:21:18

album project. You are

1:21:21

bigger than the

1:21:23

whole a sky. You look more than just a

1:21:25

shot. Yeah. But but, yeah, beautiful,

1:21:27

I think. This is a song

1:21:28

that the

1:21:29

first time I listened to in sort

1:21:31

of like a halo of,

1:21:33

like, waking up at, like, five or six in the morning and being, like, oh,

1:21:35

no. There's new songs. Like, it didn't

1:21:37

really hit me in the

1:21:40

same way. And

1:21:41

like I said, I'm not a valid

1:21:43

person we talk about But this it needs absolutely devastate me, and

1:21:45

this song absolutely

1:21:47

devastates me. I

1:21:50

She

1:21:50

has been talking so much about loss

1:21:52

and grief, and this is

1:21:54

a

1:21:54

song that feels very much

1:21:57

about that. and

1:21:58

feels very similar to a marjorie or soon you'll get better. Like, it feels like it's very

1:21:59

much in

1:22:00

the same

1:22:03

vein of, like, losing

1:22:05

someone or something, like -- Yeah. -- there is this kind of,

1:22:08

like, very

1:22:10

like mary

1:22:12

coded

1:22:12

kind of death language around it,

1:22:14

and it's just, like, really, really absolutely devastating, like,

1:22:18

just like the the way she's singing it, like, it's absolutely gorgeous song.

1:22:20

This this is when I when I

1:22:22

wanna when

1:22:23

I wanna when I wanna

1:22:25

sad ballet, this is

1:22:27

it. This is it.

1:22:28

This is what I

1:22:30

want. It's yes. I love that. I love that. Also, three words,

1:22:32

sad,

1:22:33

three words said

1:22:35

Beautiful, tragic.

1:22:36

tragic

1:22:39

A beautiful magic. go

1:22:43

on there. Okay. But the

1:22:46

the great lost classic

1:22:50

from red that nobody really pays attention to, least of

1:22:52

all Taylor herself. It's it's as long as she's barely

1:22:54

I think she's done it live maybe three

1:22:57

times. it like, you know, she doesn't even think it's

1:23:00

that great song. It's a great song.

1:23:02

And this song sounds so much like

1:23:04

it, and it's got, like, now so much

1:23:06

that the beautiful, like, sort of, Twang guitar, in some ways, this

1:23:08

is like the most country song

1:23:10

on this whole project. And I I

1:23:12

just love how it sort of like goes

1:23:14

back to that sort of, you know,

1:23:17

ninety's lillith fairness of, you know, that particular type of songwriting that she

1:23:19

does so well and just really

1:23:21

expands it with the song

1:23:24

with just so

1:23:27

much emotional impact. Like you said, so much grief in this song. I know

1:23:29

he's ever gonna go through these quickly, but I

1:23:31

had another thought that I need

1:23:33

to I need to express in

1:23:36

this song. You you too wide. Yeah. Well,

1:23:38

you know what happens. I'm thinking about the lime,

1:23:40

the I

1:23:40

I feel like I thought about this

1:23:43

a little bit because I

1:23:45

was

1:23:45

listening to, like, I was listening to herself titled and, like, thinking about

1:23:47

I don't know. I went to Catholic schools, I think about

1:23:49

a lot of things in the vain

1:23:50

of religion and prayer and God and, like,

1:23:54

the way it's kind of come up for her across her music and,

1:23:56

like, the, you know, the early country

1:23:58

god sort of being this, like, figure in

1:24:00

a lot of her early music that kind of went

1:24:03

away and then later on, it's like full Scott the prayer imagery on, like,

1:24:05

praying to, like, orange bottles and seeing you

1:24:07

get better and, like, thinking

1:24:09

it the way that she uses

1:24:11

again here. there's a lot of, like, devil imagery and a lot of these

1:24:13

songs in, like, these bonus tracks. And in

1:24:15

this one, it's,

1:24:16

like,

1:24:18

December eleventh, its wings over in Asia. Did some force take you because

1:24:20

I didn't pray. Just kind of

1:24:22

like

1:24:22

a really, you know, cutting

1:24:25

no kidding line

1:24:26

in that

1:24:28

that really

1:24:30

stuck out to me.

1:24:32

Yeah.

1:24:32

It's a it's a

1:24:35

child's thought and heartbreaking. Yeah. So

1:24:39

moving

1:24:39

on Paris.

1:24:43

breathing to a map on your bed from seeing Noah. I

1:24:45

didn't see the Noah's because we

1:24:48

are so I

1:24:50

love

1:24:50

it so random. like, I love how she was like, well, you know, like,

1:24:52

we don't have a city song on this

1:24:54

album, you know, like, you know, what?

1:24:56

Why don't

1:24:57

we do with, like, a

1:24:59

London boy or You know, like, welcome to New

1:25:01

York kind of like, let's go to a city such a random sort of Paris song. I totally

1:25:03

love it. I think every Taylor

1:25:05

album should have a

1:25:08

city song. So

1:25:09

high in Fidelity. In Fidelity, put on your

1:25:11

records and regret me.

1:25:16

I bent the truth too

1:25:18

far to not, and I was

1:25:19

dancing. There is an Elvis Castellas song called Herfidelity.

1:25:25

Even though you're feeling black and not mad.

1:25:27

Good song. Let's find a book

1:25:30

in a

1:25:31

movie. I think it's

1:25:32

it's

1:25:34

rude to have a song that

1:25:36

references hyphenality, have zodiacs on

1:25:38

the album, and then not immediately

1:25:40

fund A second season

1:25:42

of the show that was canceled way

1:25:44

too soon is a very good show.

1:25:46

Taylor should consider that. Consider her Absolutely.

1:25:49

We've tried to be we do always try to be

1:25:51

tasteful about delving into autobiography, but

1:25:56

I think In this particular case, it's so

1:25:58

blatant. And let's just say this song is about

1:25:59

boyfriend that

1:26:03

Lena Dunham one of Taylor's best friends recently went on record. Okay. It's one

1:26:05

of the best clips of television I've ever

1:26:07

seen my entire life.

1:26:10

Yes. Scott Blessina, she answered the question. Who

1:26:12

was who was her least favorite of Taylor's

1:26:14

first boyfriend? And she said the name

1:26:16

we'll say the name. It's Calvin Harris. She

1:26:19

said, Calvin Harris with Air quotes because, again, that's not his real name.

1:26:21

And when the camera

1:26:22

pans out, she say next

1:26:25

to none other than Maggie

1:26:27

Gyllenhaal. It's just sitting next to her and watch what happens

1:26:29

live. It is one of the most it's

1:26:31

like one of the

1:26:33

best film clips of

1:26:35

television that's ever happened.

1:26:36

I can't wait to see it. Yeah. It's

1:26:38

like the odd jobs. Andy Cohen asking Lina Dunham, like, it's

1:26:40

like that that game that he plays. It's like, you complete

1:26:42

the thing. You don't have to answer these.

1:26:46

and he asked, like, you'd done them. Like, who is your least favorite

1:26:48

way for next boyfriend of your

1:26:51

friend Taylor? Then all of a sudden,

1:26:53

the camera pans out and Maggie Gyllenhaal