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Welcome to rework podcast by 37 signals about

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the better way to work and run your

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business. I'm your host Kimberly Rhodes

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joined as always by Jason Fried and

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David Heinemann Hanson, co founders of 37

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signals. Well, this week we are in

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our separate locations, but soon we will

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be in person for our company meetup

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we do this twice a year. We've

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had a couple of episodes about the

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meetup after the fact like thinking about

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it in retrospect. This time I thought

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we'd start ahead of it like what

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we're looking forward to how we prepare

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for it and everything that's going

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to be going on when we meet up as a

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company in just a couple weeks. So you guys want

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to get us started. Actually, you know what before we

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talk about the specific meetup, I'd love to kind of

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hear a little bit about the history of meetups. Over

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the time that we've been a company,

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surely they weren't as international and travel

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and everything that we do now when

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you guys first started, we used

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to do them in Chicago mostly because we

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had an office in Chicago, which we had

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for 10 years. We had a big office

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that was much bigger than we needed primarily

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because we had room for everyone to come

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twice a year, basically. Actually, we may have

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done it more than that at some point,

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but Chicago is what we did for good

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10 years. And then after that lease ended,

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we started going to other places that said prior

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to the Chicago office, we went to other places.

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So we went to to Maine once we went

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to Kohler, Wisconsin, which is

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a neat town, we went to some

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other spots, then we did

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Chicago. And now every twice a year,

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we're going to different cities. So we've

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been kind of swapping between basically North

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America and Europe, for the most part.

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This time, we're doing two in North America back to

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back. And then we'll probably go back to Europe next

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time. And now we roughly not quite,

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but 5050, let's say Europe, US,

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although there's some people in Asia as well, but it's

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a small number. So it sort

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of makes sense to fluctuate because travels, of course, travel,

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and it's hard to ask everyone to come to the

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US, for example, all the time. So that's sort of

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how it all kind of got going. So

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our next one coming up is in Montreal.

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And I know our HR team

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Actually, they are awful when

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contrasted with the bi-yearly meetups

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that we do. Because

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when you do those, it doesn't feel

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like a drag. It does not feel

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like a drag to talk about what

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we're working on when you are together

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in person because it's serving more of

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a purpose than just information relaying. It's

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serving for that connectedness. It's serving for

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those recharging of the batteries. And

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I think you need to be quite clear when

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you do these things that that's the point. That's

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the purpose. We're not looking back afterwards

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and going like, okay, so in this week that just

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passed, what did we get checked off? What

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got checked off the list? No. How

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did it make people feel? And it sounds

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like such a sappy thing to say, oh,

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how did you feel? That's

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not it. It

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is really motivation. It

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is inspiration. It is connectedness. And all of

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these things are not just about the little,

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flitty, isolated emotion that everyone sits

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with afterwards. It is the fact

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that it's what allows us to

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sustain all the other stuff. It

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is when you've just spent a week with

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someone, whether a lot of time

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or even just a little time, you have

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a different relationship afterwards. When

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we then are online, we do so much of

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our work in Basecamp or in a

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campfire's thread or somewhere else where you're

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just an avatar. And

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that avatar has to be animated

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in person frequently

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to remind us, now, do you know what? That's

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a human. And it's a human where I'm

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going to assume good faith when they make an

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argument that I perhaps raise a little brow to.

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They're not just floating around out there.

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I'm not just taking everything the

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way I would someone on Twitter. That's

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a bunch of avatars that are scrolling

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in my feed. I have a casual

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acquaintanceship with some of them. That's

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not the relationship I want with people who

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work at this company. We need it to

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be more deeper, stronger. And I

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have not found a better way to

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create that. than to spend time

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together occasionally at the meetup. Now the funny

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thing about the one week twice a year

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is I like it in the moment

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and then I'm also glad when it's done. And

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that's not that I don't like working with people,

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it's just that you know what, if I had

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to do this every week, like,

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no, I don't think I would enjoy it

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nearly as much. There's some refined

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value in it being a little rare,

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being a treat, actually. It's a treat

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for us to be able to spend

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this time in person and we can

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dedicate it just to those sappy, feely

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things. And then the rest of the time

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I can go back in my little cave

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here and do my work that also

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suits me. So I think that mix

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and match to me has

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just proven to be incredibly powerful and why

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we've kept this cadence for as long as

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we have. OK, right before

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we hit record, Jason, you

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have high hopes about this Montreal meetup. Tell me

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why you're so excited about it. I

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think this will be one of our better meetups. Because

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the venue is exceptional

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and the city is fantastic. I

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am a big fan of architecture

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and place and landscape

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and location. I think architecture is the highest

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human art form, personally. That's my my take

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on it. And it does affect how you

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feel. A space affects how you feel, it

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affects how you interact. I remember walking into

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the venue where we were at in Atlanta

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and the outside of the building was all right. It

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was kind of an old historic hotel. But

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the space we chose was

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a conference room, basically, with

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round tables, with like white

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tablecloth things. And there's

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like pads of paper. It's like I just I remember

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walking in there the first time and going, fucking hell,

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is this what we've become? I'm just being honest, like,

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is this what we become? We're

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now in this in this space

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that feels like a hotel ballroom, you

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know, which is everything I've always wanted to try

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to avoid, because whenever

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I've gone to a place like that, there is

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a vibe. There's like, oh, it's another conference

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I don't want to be at. no one

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else here wants to be at. And

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there's the pitcher of water on the table

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and there's like the hard candies and it's

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like, no, I

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don't wanna throw shade on the people who set this

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up because like that was the venue we had, we

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chose. And that was a space that there is and

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that's how it's laid out. There's only so much you

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can do, okay? So that's fine. But

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I do think that choosing the place

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you're going to be, choosing

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the way you want it to feel has

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a huge amount to do with how it's gonna

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end up. You can't put lipstick

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on a pig basically. And whether

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or not it's the city or the location

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or whatever, I think it's very important for

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us. Historically, we've done a really wonderful job

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with this and you're gonna miss sometimes, it's

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fine, it happens. But I think this next

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one, Montreal is a wonderful city, I've been

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there many times. This venue is an old

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bank, it's extraordinarily beautiful. It's in

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the old quarter of Montreal, which is a

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wonderful thing. It's near some water, it's

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near some parks, it's cobblestone streets, it's an

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old thing. It's just perfect. And I think

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it's gonna go really well, primarily because the

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tone is going to be set early, that

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this is gonna be an elevated

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experience. It's an awe-inspiring room. The

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materials are awe-inspiring. It's like the whole thing

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is made of granite. It's an old bank,

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it just has that vibe to it. And

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I think that matters. So that's why I'm particularly excited about it,

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besides the things we'll talk about and the people who will be

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there. But I

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like to think about space and place and this

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is a good one, a really good one. I

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did not use to think about that at all. And

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if I can say if Jason had delivered that sermon to

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me at an earlier stage, I would have been like, that

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sounds like some hippy dippy bullshit to me.

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The thing is, if I could say, you

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care about your house design,

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why wouldn't you think that that would

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have extended beyond, is an interesting question,

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I think. Oh, ignorance. Because I was

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about to say, I'm fully

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converted now to the truth

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of that observation. Both the

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importance of architecture in. You're

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like, and David got food poisoning too. You

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got food poisoning. That didn't

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help. This is one, I mean, I've heard disclosure

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here I should actually add. One of the

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reasons I personally hated Atlanta

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with such a passion was that

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I ordered room service from that

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damn hotel. It wasn't from somewhere

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else, from other place. And I

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literally spent eight hours chained to

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the porcelain wall in my room.

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Like we didn't see you for two days. And

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that was a very unenjoyable experience. I will

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say one of like, I don't remember a

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lot of, I don't know, medical situations I

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have. You know what, those eight hours are

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quite vivid. They're not like,

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they haven't yet compressed through time. They

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still kind of feel like eight

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hours when I think back upon

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seeing that burger reappear

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in all its physical parts. We're

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hoping we don't have a redo.

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No. Let me throw this out to you. It's

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not just the venue, and it's not

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just the place in a sense. It's also like what

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surrounds the place. So I think the other issue with,

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and by the way, we're saying the word Atlanta here.

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This is not like against the city of Atlanta.

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I'm more calling it Atlanta because that was the

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name of the meetup at Atlanta. But this particular

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venue was downtown. It was kind of frankly

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a pretty crappy area. It didn't

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feel safe. And

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you walk out to go somewhere and you're not

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really in a place that you want to be

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either. I would say that about New Orleans too.

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I just feel like there's not a lot of

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like major cities in the US where

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you can go downtown and walk out and feel

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safe. Yeah, I would say

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New Orleans though. I think the New

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Orleans meetup was quite good, personally. I

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think the venue, the hotel, I think it was

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the Ace Hotel there was quite

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good. It was great. It had a nice space. That

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city has a lot of character that is its own.

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And to me it was a different vibe than Atlanta, which

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felt like a, it wasn't character.

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That's exactly what I was going to say. I think in

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New Orleans, I think like, you know

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what, it's got to have a little of that.

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It's a little shady. a little of the grittiness,

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got to have a little of the almost drunkenness,

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whatever. Do you know what? It just goes with

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that vibe. That was not when we're in the

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financial district or something in Atlanta. It just like

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we had these high rises and then the contrast

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to those surrounding feeling not so

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great, which is unsettling in

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ways that weren't endearing. And

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you can do as you say, if we right

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now we're going to do something in downtown LA.

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Do you know what? That also wouldn't have been

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great. But LA is a lot more than just

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downtown LA. You could also pick another part of

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the city or adjacent areas where you can do

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something. So I think some of it is like

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almost block by block. You could say the same

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thing about Chicago. There's a lot of places in

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Chicago we would never dream of putting a meetup.

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Don't do that. And I mean, this is some

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of the I think sometimes the challenge when we

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do traveling meetups. Chicago, we knew very

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well. The people who organized it obviously lives

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there. So kind of knew what was what.

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When we were planning something in a different

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location, you're a little bit more luck at

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the draw. Yeah. And

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we just came up blank in

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Atlanta. It happened. It totally happens.

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Our record is like we're like 98% great. Yeah.

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So like, you know, it happens. I'm not

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glad because I did get food

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poisoning and that was pretty miserable. But

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the contrast, I think contrast is good.

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I think occasionally you elevate everything else

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if you get a reminder of

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what it could also be. And

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we did. Okay, last question before

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we wrap it up. We talked a

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couple weeks ago about public speaking and

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how much or little the two of

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you prepare. So tell me about

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this for meetup when you're getting up in front

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of the company and sharing updates. Is that something

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you write an agenda for? But

21:42

bullet points for or you just winging it

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for this sort of event? There's an agenda. There's

21:47

an order of events that are going to happen.

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The only do basically the only talk we give

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that's really formal is Monday morning

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and it's for a few hours until

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lunch, basically. So call from like 9am

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to noon ish. whatever. And there's

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an agenda and a few different people speak. And then

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David and I talk about a variety of different things.

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I usually give some product demos for things we're working

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on. David might talk about some technical stuff or a

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philosophical point of view on something. It's

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a loose conversation. It's not

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like slides and a

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rigid keynote sort of thing. It's

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more like showing things, which

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I think is really kind of the nice thing to

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be able to do when we're all together. It's about

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having this sort of shared experience together. Here's

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what we're working on. Here's what we're thinking about. Here's where

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it's at. This also brings up another

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thought. Maybe we could talk about this and then you

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kind of go in some different directions and then people

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ask questions and it's very open in that way. I

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think every time we've tried to kind of lock this

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down, we end up not having enough time. This happens

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all the time. People are actually curious to converse. And

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so we kind of keep it loose for that reason. Okay.

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Well, the next time I see you guys, we'll be

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in person. And hopefully we'll record a

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couple of podcasts episode with us all in the

22:53

same room. Fingers crossed that we can make that

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happen. But with that, we're going to wrap it up.

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Rework is a production of 37 signals. You can find

23:00

show notes and transcripts on our website at 37signals.com/ podcast.

23:03

Full video episodes are on YouTube and Twitter. And you have

23:05

a question for Jason or David about a better way to

23:07

work and run your business. Leave us a voicemail at 7

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0 8 6 2 8 7 8 5 0. You

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can also text that number or email us

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at rework at 37signals.com.