0:00

Canada and funded by you.

0:05

A. Don't? What's? The. Worst thing

0:07

that could happen with the series. The.

0:09

Worst thing that could happen is that are

0:12

information as bad and the person. Is actually

0:14

a native? Could you imagine? I would just

0:16

be like crawling under a rock and and

0:18

dying is what I would do. Worse case

0:20

scenario is that we get it wrong and

0:22

then we look like goddamn clowns to hundreds

0:24

or thousands of people and also like we've

0:26

really screwed someone over. Yeah. That's the

0:29

kind of thing that will haunt you forever. A

0:31

mistake like that is our worst nightmare.

0:33

But. It's also someone's reality. Today's.

0:36

Episode is about a pretending and hunter who may

0:38

have gone too far. It's. About

0:40

what happens when pretending investigations

0:42

go wrong. To

0:45

calculate their title taking and hang the

0:47

other neck of people who are falsely

0:50

claiming. I just find it has it's just

0:52

a very rotten heart both feet. Schooling

1:01

now my news feed on a

1:03

hot summer day. Got

1:07

a D n a

1:09

zoo aim who say.

1:12

Would much rather sticky bar don't

1:14

know the hot summer saw. Go

1:18

chase them. Pastor is on to

1:20

the job is done. When

1:34

you use As a P Concur Solutions

1:36

to automate your business finances, you'll be

1:39

ready for anything. Except

1:43

the new of dog winding up with

1:46

your lunch. With.

1:49

As a P concur, you can be

1:51

ready for. With as a peak occur you can be

1:53

ready for. Almost anything.

1:54

Almost anything. Take. Control

1:57

of your business Finance Today I

1:59

concur. Dot Com. concur.com.

2:08

From Canaland Podcast, this is Pretendians, a show

2:10

where we investigate the impact that fakes, frauds

2:12

and phonies have on real Native people. My

2:14

name is Robert Jago. I'm a freelance writer

2:16

from the Kwantlen First Nation and Nooksack Indian

2:18

Tribe. And I'm Angel Ellis, a

2:20

citizen of the Muskogee Creek Nation located

2:22

in Ocmulgee, Oklahoma. I've been a writer,

2:25

editor, journalist for about 15 years. Angel,

2:33

I'd like you to meet Jacqueline Keeler. My

2:35

name is Jacqueline Keeler. I

2:37

am a citizen of the Navajo Nation. My

2:40

father is Yankton Sioux from South

2:42

Dakota. I'm a journalist and author,

2:45

and I have been doing research into

2:47

the allegations of ethnic

2:50

fraud, commonly called pretendianism. Non-Native

2:52

listeners may not be familiar with

2:54

Jacqueline Keeler, but they're likely familiar

2:57

with her work. Jacqueline Keeler is

2:59

a Navajo and co-founder of the

3:01

group Eradicating Offensive Native Masketry.

3:03

They claim the buck tooth red

3:05

face image is offensive to Native

3:07

American culture. I love Wahoo!

3:09

Fuck you! It's a caricature!

3:11

Get over here! No way!

3:13

Yeah! Woo! Woo! Woo! Woo!

3:16

Woo! Woo! Jacqueline and her

3:18

team succeeded in getting most of those awful

3:20

mascots away from major sports, like the chief

3:22

Wahoo mascot of the Cleveland Indians, now known

3:24

as the Cleveland Guardians, as a result of

3:26

her campaign. They promote stereotypes, outdated stereotypes

3:29

about Native people, and they pigeonhole us

3:31

so that real Native people aren't seen

3:33

for who we are, and nobody knows

3:35

anything about us. And she also got

3:37

the Washington Reds to ditch that

3:39

name. Now they're the Washington

3:41

Commanders. Can we beep? That's

3:44

like such a... Did

3:46

I just go beep? Okay. So

3:48

that's one of her projects. Another has been

3:50

leading the charge to identify and expose pretendians.

3:53

She's been quite effective at that, too. CBC

3:56

News gets the credit for exposing Buffy St.

3:58

Marie and how she mischiefed... represented her

4:00

indigenous identity. But it was

4:03

actually Jacqueline Keeler who first discovered and researched

4:05

this. Yeah I'm the one who found

4:07

out she wasn't who she was. At first

4:09

Jacqueline was a Buffy fan like a lot of

4:11

natives. She used to have a radio show and

4:13

she used a Buffy song in every episode. I

4:16

had as a sort of theme song to my

4:18

show a song I carry it on by Buffy

4:20

St. Marie you know every morning I have a

4:22

show I'd like it all works out this thing

4:24

to it like it all like jazz and stuff

4:27

and get myself going. Someone

4:33

in the comments basically said oh did you

4:35

know that she's a fraud. I was

4:38

suddenly having a sinking feeling when I

4:40

realized that she never was able to

4:42

really identify her family or any

4:44

proof at all that she you know

4:46

had come from Saskatchewan or even Canada

4:49

and and I was like oh my god

4:51

this seems like a pretendian. And the first

4:53

thing that popped up was that she had

4:56

been on the Massachusetts birth index was being

4:58

born in Stoneham Massachusetts and

5:00

I was like whoa what

5:02

does this mean I mean and and

5:04

so we were able to really piece

5:06

together that that she was born there

5:08

and this these were her actual relatives

5:10

her Italian father and her you know

5:12

white pilgrim mother. There's an Italian American

5:14

community there that felt very rejected by

5:16

her that she was ashamed of them

5:18

you know there are stories in

5:20

the printed at the time of

5:23

her driving her her Italian uncles away and

5:25

screaming at them you know because she was

5:27

ashamed that people might realize that they were

5:29

her actual she looks like them she looks

5:31

exactly like them you know and you know it

5:33

was all there was pretty apparent

5:36

that she was lying and she's lied about

5:38

it so much it's just completely ridiculous to

5:40

fall back on that at this point you

5:42

know she never told the truth about

5:44

it she was lying that's

5:47

the end of the story. Angel how did

5:49

you feel about the Buffy expose? Oh

5:51

my gosh the Buffy expose kind of

5:53

rocked my world because like it was

5:55

like generations of my family who were

5:57

like hurt you know how when you're dead

6:00

That really love that song and you

6:02

have great memories of that song in

6:04

the car and then it turns out

6:06

that they're not actually like you. It

6:08

was really disappointing because she was always one was

6:10

figures that in for any sort of canadian think

6:13

the always. Dragged. Around prepped her

6:15

up. It's just disappointing because of

6:17

her status in the community. She

6:19

was on Sesame Street. And

6:21

you're like of native kids like watching

6:23

Sesame Street. And like the first time you've ever

6:25

seen. That it's like saying and

6:27

so. It kind of take. Makes

6:30

your childhood allied with a the it. It's like

6:32

what is going on here. Of

6:34

is just one of jacqueline So many

6:37

subjects where we're going to focus on

6:39

today is or main effort to identify.

6:41

pretend it's pretending it's and universities in

6:43

the media Oliver. And she made

6:45

a list. I

6:48

created a google doc. And I am

6:50

at the down and as idea which was. I'll

6:53

now maybe twenty five people I knew as

6:55

an and I open a full etc will

6:57

was never opened his private less but if

6:59

someone asked to have access to it we

7:01

would let them. but only one sweet they

7:03

gave their real names. We. Were

7:05

able to ascertain that they were actually

7:07

Nader's at they were professional in various

7:09

fields like so they're talking about in

7:11

colleagues in their field stripes. As a

7:13

the we open less up to them

7:16

it was We we saw the two

7:18

hundred because we need to finish the

7:20

investigation. Ah we have says received several

7:22

hundred more. Name's. Sue.

7:24

Hundred names were added to this google doc.

7:26

All of them are people who are suspected

7:28

of being pretentious. Now. As hurt

7:30

Jacqueline says as was priceless.

7:33

And. How do you know about Robert? Because

7:35

a wasn't private? The may have been private

7:38

when was first released but once it was

7:40

out in the world he was everywhere on

7:42

Reddit on Twitter, put up on people's blogs.

7:44

people make copies, answer them around. it was

7:47

very is fine and made of social media.

7:49

As you know is a pretty tight knit

7:51

and small world. Once where did this list

7:53

got around? Everyone was checking to see who

7:55

was on it. i

7:58

as jacqueline if you sorted any names before adding

8:00

them to the list. We

8:05

did remove some if we knew off the bat that

8:07

they were legit. I mean, I don't know. We really

8:09

were working with people who were seriously questionable. We wanted

8:12

to find out the truth. Mostly we

8:14

just accepted what they wrote. I think if

8:16

someone we allowed access to the list to

8:18

submit a bunch of claims that were spurious

8:21

or obviously ridiculous, we just got

8:23

rid of those. But mostly they were

8:25

chosen by people who are professionals in

8:27

those fields, native to professionals who

8:30

have suspected fraud in their fields. They were the

8:32

ones who chose the people in the list. And

8:34

some of them, I put a legend because we

8:36

had not confirmed these cases and we needed to

8:38

do so. This was not

8:40

a list of confirmed Britannians. This

8:42

was a list of people who were deemed

8:44

to be likely suspects. We

8:46

actually can identify that ancestor and they are

8:49

from the tribe they are claiming. No matter

8:51

how far back it is, we mark them

8:53

as verified. We verify that.

8:55

So the problem is very few of these claims

8:57

pan out and we've only been able to

8:59

verify like seven people. Wait. So

9:02

there were people on this list

9:04

of possible Britannians who she later

9:07

verified as being legit. Yes.

9:10

So for example, one of the people targeted

9:12

elsewhere by Jacqueline Keeler was Tara Hauska. She's

9:15

the citizen of the Kuchicheng First Nation. She's

9:17

a prominent land defender, a lawyer fighting for

9:19

Trumpa rights, and she was friend and center

9:21

at Standing Rock. But online,

9:23

Keeler cast doubts about her ancestry by

9:25

investigating her mother's ancestry and determining that

9:28

her connection was too distant to count.

9:31

But Hauska is a registered native through

9:33

her father's side. Jacqueline admits

9:35

that some of the names on the list were

9:37

not actually Britannians, but she doesn't see that as

9:39

a problem. She argues that there was actually an

9:41

upside for people who were called out on the

9:43

list for maybe being frauds because it

9:46

gave them an opportunity to clear their names. Fax

9:50

can actually relieve someone from accusations

9:53

of fraud, but it can also show

9:55

that fraud is really rampant. I mean,

9:57

the initial list that we verified. include

10:00

200 names and most of

10:02

them in academia in some form. And out

10:05

of that 97% of them we

10:07

could not verify their travel claims. Why don't

10:10

they, if they really have an issue, why

10:12

don't they just present their evidence? So

10:14

it's kind of like if you have nothing to hide, you

10:16

have nothing to fear, I guess. Jacqueline

10:19

says she and her secret group of

10:21

researchers aren't out to get anybody. She

10:23

says they actually prefer it when they

10:25

find out someone isn't a pretendian. In

10:28

fact, we found that CSU San Marcos

10:30

professor who was actually being 100% accurate

10:32

in her description of her

10:34

dissent. We actually threw a little online

10:37

Zoom party, our researchers, because we were just

10:39

so happy to find something we could actually

10:41

confirm. Like we don't, it kills us to

10:43

see that people are lying. It's not something

10:45

we want to find. She says

10:47

she doesn't want to find pretendians, but when

10:49

she does find them, she sees it as

10:51

very important to call them out. You

10:53

know, what we are dealing with is fraud.

10:56

I'm investigating a huge fraud case. I

10:58

mean, a case of fraud happening in this country,

11:00

which is probably stealing billions of dollars

11:03

away from Native people. And that's not

11:05

an exaggeration. If you document how much

11:07

their families own their land, everything, we

11:09

know how much they got out of

11:11

this. And so we want to calculate

11:13

their total taking and hang that on

11:15

the neck of people who

11:17

are falsely claiming because these people, as

11:20

I've been quoted as saying before, their

11:22

ancestors, their family members were on the

11:24

white supremacy party bus. And these

11:27

people are driving Native people out

11:29

of their professional careers. They are

11:31

impoverishing Native families because many Native

11:33

families depend on people who

11:35

can get a PhD to help support everyone on

11:37

the res. She says

11:39

if you add up all of the salaries

11:41

of pretendians and universities that are instead going

11:44

to imposters, it adds up to an

11:46

astounding level of fraud. Investigating

11:48

a massive fraud case is what journalists do.

11:50

And that's why they actually make the world

11:53

a better place. Honestly, I

11:56

agree with the points she's making about

11:58

Natives losing opportunities. And

12:01

I agree with the point she's making about investigations

12:04

and what journalists do and that

12:06

it's important work. That's

12:08

what we're trying to do here, right? I

12:10

mean, sure, that's the idea. So

12:13

let me ask you this, like, what's her criteria?

12:15

Like, when we started

12:17

making this series, we set up

12:19

some rules for ourselves. Yeah, it's

12:21

not enough just to verify that they're not

12:24

indigenous. I mean, there are lots and lots

12:26

of people who are pretendians, and most of

12:28

them aren't really harming anybody but themselves. So

12:32

to make someone worth investigating, we agreed on a

12:34

three-part test. Just first

12:36

off, off the basics, they're not indigenous. So

12:38

that means they're not a citizen of a

12:40

nation. They're not part of that nation. They're

12:43

not tribally enrolled. They're not federally registered. Or

12:45

they have no ability to be any of

12:47

those. Also, the tribe exists.

12:49

It is a legitimate real tribe.

12:52

That's number one. Number two is

12:54

that they're prominent enough to

12:58

have an impact on the

13:00

interests of actual Native people. So

13:03

they're not just, you know,

13:05

so-and-so at the gas station who says,

13:08

oh, you're Native, I'm Native too. We

13:10

don't care about that. It's about

13:12

the ones who are doing things

13:14

that are changing our politics, changing

13:17

the culture, who are, again, like,

13:19

making money off of this. The key

13:21

takeaway is that there's some sort

13:23

of harm. The third

13:25

criteria is that their community rejects them.

13:28

The tribe they claim doesn't claim them.

13:30

There are people on the ground from

13:33

that place who say that this person, by

13:35

our standards, is not one of us. That

13:38

last part, I think, is really, really

13:40

important, and it's what a lot of

13:42

pretendian stories have missed out on, is

13:45

going into the community and finding out

13:47

how does citizenship work here. We

13:50

can't just come in from on high

13:53

from a non-Native media organization.

13:56

We can't go into someone else's nation and say, that

13:58

person's not a real one of you. I

14:00

mean, we need to go and talk to them and

14:02

find out what their standards are and apply those standards.

14:05

So that's our criteria. And I asked Jacqueline what

14:08

hers are. The criteria is in

14:10

the definition of pretend innocent that we use,

14:12

which is that they are professionals in their

14:14

field. They are seeking to

14:16

be our spokespeople. They have monetization

14:18

schemes going to monetize the claims,

14:21

but that sort of thing. So by

14:23

definition, these people are consequential and these

14:25

people are gatekeepers. And these

14:27

people are causing harm and basically trying to

14:30

salt the ground for actual Native people to

14:32

participate. So it's a

14:34

pretty similar idea there too. But Angel,

14:36

the difference with Jacqueline, I think, is

14:39

in her methodology. Well, yeah,

14:41

I mean, if you're going to publicly release

14:43

a list of names and then start investigating,

14:45

that's kind of ass backwards. Well, I mean,

14:47

well, as you heard, Jacqueline disputes that

14:49

the list was truly public. And

14:52

she disputes the idea that simply being on the

14:54

list hurt anyone. If anything, she says it

14:56

gives them a chance to prove who they are. But

14:59

in a minute, you're going to hear from someone who is

15:01

put on her list and who feels pretty

15:03

differently about the whole thing. Every

15:12

day is filled with opportunities to

15:14

express yourself. And with an everyday

15:16

piece from Blue Nile, you can do

15:18

it without saying a word. Blue Nile's

15:20

collection of diamond jewelry is the ultimate

15:23

statement with sparkle that elevates any outfit

15:25

or switch things up with a sapphire

15:27

piece sure to spark conversation. Either

15:30

way, their diamond guarantee ensures you get

15:32

the highest quality at the best price.

15:35

Express yourself with Blue Nile, the

15:37

original online jeweler at bluenile.com. That's

15:40

bluenile.com. My

15:47

name is Kiroz Old. I'm Pamanki. The

15:49

Pamanki Indian tribe is the only federally

15:51

recognized tribe in the state of Virginia.

15:53

I served on the board of

15:55

directors for Native American Lifelines of Baltimore

15:57

and Boston as a group of people.

16:00

have asked the president and I'm proud

16:02

of that service. Thank you. Hyruss

16:04

is active online. He's the founder

16:06

and moderator of Indian Country, which is

16:08

the biggest indigenous forum on Reddit. His

16:10

first encounter with Jacqueline Keeler happened online.

16:14

We disagreed with something on something

16:16

on Twitter. I think it's that petty. I

16:19

don't think Shaverford gave me for that. After

16:21

that, his name appeared on Jacqueline's list. So

16:24

I have to ask if he's on the list,

16:26

is he a pretendian? We

16:28

looked into his background and there's enough there

16:30

to show that he almost certainly is not

16:33

a pretendian. His mother and

16:35

grandmother had tribal membership. He himself

16:37

has chosen not to pursue a tribal ID, but

16:39

he is a claimed and very active member of

16:41

the Pamunkey community. He's not relying

16:43

on some distant ancestor or generalized descent.

16:46

I'm embraced as Pamunkey by other Pamunkey

16:48

people. Good enough for me. So

16:50

during the pandemic, when Kyruss was involved

16:52

in getting native people vaccinated, he learned

16:54

that his name was on Jacqueline's list. I

16:57

came to find that I, along

17:00

with about 200 other individuals

17:03

targeted, were part of

17:05

the alleged pretendians list in

17:08

the last days of January

17:11

2021. It was the one-year anniversary

17:14

of the loss of our child. And

17:16

it's an unsubstantiated

17:19

allegation. Kyruss says that even

17:21

though he was the individual named, his whole

17:23

family was implicated, and not just

17:25

the living. We're talking about our

17:28

dead, who's legitimacy is questioned, by

17:30

persons who have no relationship to him. And so

17:32

I saw one day she was making an attack

17:35

about my mother having

17:37

financed her home in

17:39

DC from fraudulent Pamunkey

17:41

claims, fundraising based

17:44

off of false claims. And I

17:46

pushed back on that publicly because my parents financed

17:48

that home through a mortgage funded

17:50

through their jobs. They were teachers

17:52

in DC public schools. I asked

17:54

Kyruss how Jacqueline Keeler's allegations impacted

17:56

him. I mean, it hasn't impacted

17:58

me negatively economically. because I didn't make money

18:01

off of indigene. It's not my bread and butter. I

18:03

don't do this stuff for a living.

18:05

But that's not to say he didn't suffer from it. After

18:08

the list went around, others took it upon

18:10

themselves to harass people who appeared on it.

18:13

I've unfortunately dealt with the criminal element who

18:15

she directed at my family. And

18:17

I had to tighten up security measures.

18:20

I had felt less safe.

18:22

And it's gotten somewhat better

18:25

insofar as I've gotten used to looking

18:27

over my shoulder in this capacity. I've

18:29

been less inclined, and I've

18:31

seen other people affected by this, being less

18:33

inclined to share of themselves in

18:35

other communities and other families because there are

18:38

sharks. There are monsters in

18:40

those digital waters. And she's certainly one of them.

18:42

As disturbing as all of us has been to

18:45

Kairos, he says that it's not really new. He

18:48

sees Jacqueline Keeler's list as a

18:50

new digital form of something that's

18:52

plague-native for generations. So

18:54

under the Racial Integrity Act of 1924,

18:57

the legislators in

18:59

Virginia who were among

19:01

the first families of Virginia, some of

19:03

whom have documented ancestry going back to

19:05

Pocahontas, wanted to carve

19:08

out an exception to this act

19:10

that defined in very

19:13

hard ways race in Virginia, setting

19:15

up a racial regime in which

19:17

you could be white

19:20

if you had distant

19:22

Indian ancestry. All

19:25

of the persons were considered

19:27

colored or black. And

19:30

then there was this tiny

19:32

Indian category that eugenics

19:34

did everything they could to persecute

19:37

and repress and

19:39

identify as suspect

19:41

and fraudulent so they could keep the

19:43

white race peers, so they could keep in their

19:46

language, they can keep these

19:48

Negroes from passing

19:51

into the white race by calling themselves

19:53

Indian on documents such as birth certificates.

19:56

It's worth noting here that Kairos is both

19:58

black and native. the

20:00

Jim Crow regime very much wanted to know

20:02

where people lived, where they worked, who they

20:05

were married to, who their friends were, where

20:07

they went to church. A total

20:09

invasion of the lives of these people and

20:11

the safety of these people. And you have

20:13

to remember that there were

20:15

felony penalties for violating the Racial Integrity

20:18

Act. People did, in

20:20

fact, find themselves imprisoned. So

20:22

it just strikes us as

20:25

being Jim Crow rebranded for the digital

20:27

age, because it's the same information, the

20:29

same persons used in the same way. Whether

20:31

you want to call it a use of slur

20:34

pretendian, or if you want

20:36

to use an older slur like mongrel,

20:38

which is what they would refer to us as. So

20:41

yeah, it's all had a bad

20:43

policy. And I'm used to people

20:45

demanding what my business is. Oh,

20:48

did you really earn the job that you have?

20:50

Or are you a diversity fire? Oh,

20:52

what are you doing here in this neighborhood? That's

20:54

how it hits me to say that my

20:56

parents didn't earn their home. We're used to

20:58

that. We're used to the idea that people like

21:00

us don't belong where we are. I

21:03

just find it has just a very rotten heart

21:05

of hate. She's a direct

21:07

successor to it in methodology and in rhetoric

21:10

and in targets, direct successor. So

21:12

I mean, Jacqueline said that she's just doing

21:14

investigative journalism. She

21:17

says that work should be looked at

21:19

as reporting on fraud. She

21:22

did say that she's just

21:24

doing investigative journalism. She also

21:26

said that she always tries to get the other

21:28

side of the story as any journalist would. Kyra

21:31

says that's not true. She never tried talking

21:33

with me at all. No outreach,

21:36

no interview. It's all been very dehumanizing because

21:38

it's like we're dealing with

21:40

some kind of wannabe anthropologist who

21:42

doesn't talk with their subjects, who

21:44

just writes about them and places

21:47

things in the most hostile, antagonistic,

21:50

derogatory light. We're not talking about professionals.

21:53

We're not talking about political journalists here.

21:55

We are talking about agitators and people

21:58

who are trying to get the right to work.

22:00

trying to prop themselves up using

22:02

clout and controversy and inference.

22:06

What is the term? Speculative journalism.

22:08

She's really stolen our

22:10

story and created something else. Paris

22:13

says that since the list, some natives

22:15

have gotten really paranoid. I've seen people

22:18

who on social media feel

22:20

compelled to dox themselves to present

22:22

their tribal ID and other personally

22:24

identifiable information that they need to keep

22:26

secure because they're afraid of being

22:28

called frauds. It's created an

22:31

environment of fear. Unfortunately, I'm part of

22:33

that environment of fear, an unwilling participant

22:35

in all this. I'm just curious

22:38

though, does Kiro see any kind of

22:40

value in the intent of this kind

22:42

of work? I mean, there's

22:44

widespread understanding that Pratindians are a

22:46

real problem. Yeah, he thinks

22:48

that tribal governments and only

22:50

tribal governments should be doing

22:52

these investigations and given

22:54

his experience, I don't really blame him. I

22:57

think people need to understand that it's not

22:59

normal for someone

23:01

to make a list of 200 enemies

23:04

digging down into where they live,

23:07

who their family is, digging up

23:09

their family trees, creating, fabricating new

23:11

family trees, pissing on those family

23:13

trees, degrading those ancestors

23:15

who can't speak for themselves. You

23:24

know, Kiroz was saying that the only people that

23:27

should be doing these sorts of investigations are tribal

23:29

governments. And I

23:32

was actually hired by my First

23:34

Nation to do one

23:36

of these sorts of investigations. And

23:38

so I appreciate what he's saying there. And

23:41

I think that applies when you have

23:44

an identifiable nation and

23:46

someone is claiming to be part

23:48

of that. When you've got

23:50

stories like Guillaume Karl, who

23:52

we did a while ago, or the Hells

23:54

Angels one a while ago, where they're making

23:56

up nations, I think there's a

23:59

place for... external actors to come in and

24:01

take a look at that. But I don't

24:03

think he's wrong. Yeah, I

24:05

have real bad issues with Jacqueline's

24:08

methodology. It seems like

24:10

she's kind of holding people hostage in

24:12

a court of public opinion that they

24:14

have absolutely no way

24:16

of refuting because a lie can be around

24:18

the world and back

24:20

again before the truth ever puts its shoes

24:22

on. And I think that if

24:25

she had done a few key things differently, I

24:28

could really support the work that she's

24:30

doing. But it is fucking crazy to

24:32

just make a list of

24:34

your 200 enemies and start blasting on

24:36

one social that's bullying. You're right, it

24:38

is bullying. There is a

24:40

problem in Indian country. We all

24:42

agree that there is a problem. She agrees,

24:45

we agree, we all agree that

24:47

there is an issue with these

24:49

pretendians taking opportunities, talking

24:51

over us. And it's

24:55

like an illness in our culture,

24:57

in our country. And you

25:00

can take a surgical approach and take it

25:02

out carefully, being as minimally

25:04

invasive as possible and making sure you don't

25:06

hurt anybody. Or you could

25:08

use a shotgun. And

25:11

some of the pellets will go past

25:13

and hit bystanders, but a couple

25:15

will actually hit the thing. And so, well, there we

25:17

go. Sloppy. For

25:19

all of the cases where you get it right, it

25:22

doesn't justify any of

25:24

the cases where you get it wrong. Absolutely

25:27

not. I hate to think about what

25:29

Kiroz and his mom and his grandmother

25:32

had to go and do in

25:34

their own community when these kind

25:36

of things started circulating. You know,

25:38

Kiroz isn't the only false positive that we talk

25:40

to. He's the only false positive that

25:43

would talk on tape because the others were afraid.

25:45

And they were afraid of the harassment that

25:47

they've gotten because of the list. And

25:50

it's quieted down for a little bit now. And

25:52

they were afraid that if they talked to us on tape,

25:55

that it would come back to them, that it would

25:57

restart everything all over again, and they would have to deal with

25:59

it. with people harassing

26:01

them online and possibly in

26:03

person. Hey Robert, I

26:05

got a question. So like, so

26:08

if we were to have like a

26:10

glaring mistake and someone pointed out holes

26:13

in our methodology, what would your first step

26:16

be? If we're like

26:18

a huge mistake, I would have to see

26:21

where my data was

26:24

bad. Okay, this

26:26

is the thing with Jacqueline Keeler. It's

26:29

hard to support her. She

26:31

makes it very hard. The

26:33

way she deals with people is

26:35

just not freaking cool.

26:38

It is just, it's not cool the way she deals

26:40

with people. It's not professional,

26:43

it's not humane.

26:46

When you put that aside, she

26:48

is doing a job that needs to be done.

26:51

And she is one of the

26:53

very, very few people who will do that job and

26:55

she has been right. And I

26:57

think that if she were

26:59

to change some of the ways

27:03

that she deals with things and with people,

27:06

that her contributions could be much

27:08

greater than they are now, much

27:10

greater than they have been so far. I'm

27:18

sorry. And

27:27

that's our show. Next

27:34

time on Pretendians, Angel zooms in on

27:36

Pretendians in Hollywood. Johnny Depp is

27:38

now a member of a Comanche family and

27:40

has an Indian name that suits him perfectly.

27:43

And Shaggy Pifter. Our

27:45

executive producer and editor is Jesse Brown. Additional

27:48

production from Caleb Thompson. Julie Shapiro

27:50

is our contributing editor. Canada

27:52

Land's editor in chief is Karen Pulezi. If

27:56

you like Pretendians and want to hear more of

27:58

it, it's really important to help us. the word out.

28:00

When you follow us, subscribe to us, rate

28:02

us, and review us on Spotify and

28:05

Apple podcasts, the sacred algorithm takes note

28:07

and spreads the word to others. Please

28:09

do it now. You can listen

28:11

ad-free and early on Amazon Music included with

28:13

Prime. Thanks for listening. I'm

28:21

guessing that most of the Canadians listening to this

28:23

right now already listen to Canada Land. The Americans

28:26

and not so sure. For over

28:28

10 years, Canada Land has been publishing weekly

28:30

episodes that look critically at the media, break

28:32

news stories, and bring listeners like you, perspectives

28:35

from across Canada that you won't find anywhere

28:37

else. Angel, since you

28:39

started working on the show, have you

28:41

been listening? Have you been catching up

28:43

on all things across the medicine line?

28:45

People are always telling me that you

28:47

Canadians are nice, polite, boring folks, but

28:49

I've been listening to some news

28:52

stories and holy cow, the

28:54

stereotypes are wrong. You guys

28:56

are wild. I've heard stories

28:58

about medical cover-ups, election

29:00

interference, right-wing trolls,

29:02

racism, messed up policing,

29:05

and something called a pokaroo. Anyway,

29:08

you guys are like the US but with less

29:10

guns and a younger, better-looking president or

29:12

leader, whatever you call him. I've

29:15

learned a lot. Yep, Canadians are just as

29:17

awful and outrageous and messed up as Americans

29:19

are. They just hide it better. I'm learning

29:21

that, Robert. You can listen to

29:23

and follow Canada Land anywhere you get your

29:25

podcasts. The

29:29

living room is where you make

29:31

life's most beautiful memories, but your sofa

29:33

shouldn't be the one remembering them. The

29:36

new life-resistant high-performance furniture collection from

29:38

Ashley is designed to withstand all the

29:40

spills, slip-ups, and muddy paws that come

29:42

with the best parts of life. Ashley

29:45

high-performance sofas and recliners are

29:48

soft, on-trend, and easy to

29:50

clean. Shop the high-performance furniture

29:52

in-store online at ashley.com. Ashley,

29:54

for the love of home.

30:00

of Freeze Your Bones, a

30:02

prospect. Searching for a legendary

30:04

cursed gold mine vanishes

30:06

without a trace. I'm Crewe

30:08

Williams, the host of Dead Man's

30:10

Curse. This season, we retrace the

30:12

steps of fortune seekers looking for

30:14

a mother lode worth billions who

30:16

never came back. So come

30:19

join our quest. Search for and follow

30:21

Dead Man's Curse Volcanic Gold on

30:23

Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, and

30:26

wherever you find your favorite podcasts.

30:30

Search for and follow Dead Man's Curse Volcanic Gold