2:00

over-incarceration has actually

2:02

exacerbated addiction and

2:05

come at a very high cost

2:07

economically. So, Greg, Clayton, welcome to

2:10

the podcast. You said it in

2:13

one sentence pretty well, it's a war on

2:15

people, not a war on drugs. What

2:17

needs to change? If we're not

2:19

going to do what we're doing and

2:23

clearly what we're doing

2:26

is not working, nobody

2:29

wants to point to the pandemic now because

2:32

it was a major

2:35

event. But this was

2:37

a problem way before the pandemic, go

2:40

back to prohibition and all

2:42

this kind of thing. We're not going to

2:44

arrest our way out of this. So what

2:47

should be happening right now? What should we

2:49

be doing? So, yeah, I mean,

2:51

I think there's a lot from, you know,

2:53

from a public policy standpoint to try to kind

2:55

of right some of the wrongs from the laws

2:57

that are on the books and the things

3:00

that we're able to do. You know, you

3:02

know, our team works a lot on Capitol

3:04

Hill and in states to, you know, right

3:07

now we're working on a bill called the Equal Act,

3:09

which would, you know, stop the crazy chasm

3:12

between how we treat crack cocaine compared

3:14

to powder cocaine, which

3:17

are essentially pharmacologically, you know, identical,

3:19

except for crack, the way that you bake it allows

3:22

it to be a much more pungent punch,

3:24

cheaper and shorter lived. And so that was essentially

3:26

established after, you know, in the in the

3:28

80s, kind of seeing the crack cocaine epidemic. This

3:31

is the way that we are going to

3:33

get out of it. It was a failure. And

3:35

so to make that a one to one

3:37

and right sizing, some of those laws, reduce some

3:39

of the mandatory minimums, allow for judges to

3:41

see a case and say, the mandatory

3:43

minimum says you're supposed to go to 10 years, but I

3:45

think that you would be much better in recovering addiction. So

3:48

you're going to go to jail for two, you know, there's all

3:50

these things that we can kind of start picking at the edges

3:52

around limit the ways that

3:54

law enforcement's able to, you know, do

3:57

no knock warrants based upon, you know,

3:59

a minor drug bust and things like

4:01

that. There's a lot of those civil liberty

4:03

aspects of things, but when you're talking about

4:05

actually winning this drug war overall from a

4:07

policy standpoint, it is start to take a

4:09

healthcare approach rather than a criminal

4:11

justice approach to allow for experts to

4:13

lead on this and get people into

4:16

recovery, you know, through methods that we

4:18

know work. And so, you

4:20

know, I one thing I do somewhat

4:22

agree with, but I don't like the way that

4:24

it's been implemented in practice. It

4:27

is kind of some of the, you know, it's

4:29

just the treatments that we see, you know,

4:32

that have been effective in places like Europe

4:34

and Switzerland, where you allow people to come

4:36

in and utilize, you know, your

4:38

drugs and wean them off in a certain way.

4:40

But I think that we failed at that as

4:42

a public policy standpoint, kind of going the other

4:45

way, and have allowed for open air drug markets

4:47

to proliferate in places like San Francisco and Philadelphia

4:49

and Baltimore. And I don't think that's the right

4:51

way either. We need to find that balance between,

4:53

you know, actual tough love and

4:56

allowing for this and understanding that aspects, but we

4:58

kind of go one way or the other, we

5:00

either try to criminalize our way out of it,

5:03

or essentially ignore the problem. And it really is

5:05

that tough love standpoint, where we have carrots, we

5:07

have sticks, you know, you can't just you have

5:09

to earn your way off of this, but also

5:11

lead you through a place of empathy and understand

5:14

that failure is a part of recovery.

5:16

That's the one part you see a lot of things

5:18

that we try to do from diversion. But the first

5:20

time to have a dirty urine test or the first

5:22

time they miss a meeting, we throw them out on

5:24

their ass or we throw them in prison. And these

5:26

are the types of things that fail

5:28

and what bring people back to relapse. So

5:32

it's complicated, it's messy. But

5:34

having that tough love aspect and trying to

5:37

lead with policy and evidence rather

5:39

than kind of feel, that's

5:42

where we need to start at the very

5:44

least. Yeah, and let's talk about that for

5:46

a minute because I'm well

5:49

aware of some of

5:51

the safe zone practices and stuff

5:54

in some of the

5:56

Nordic and European countries and some

5:59

of those that advocate for

6:01

that in the United States and

6:03

they cite the

6:05

success levels in

6:08

Europe to

6:10

justify doing that here, but

6:13

they're not doing the same thing here. That's

6:15

just bullshit. And maybe it's a

6:18

thin line between enabling and

6:21

actually keeping people safe and it has

6:23

to do with outcome criteria,

6:25

I guess. And your outcome criteria

6:28

is we haven't had a single

6:30

overdose because we got lasers to shoot through

6:32

here and see if there's fentanyl in here.

6:35

We have people there to intervene if

6:37

there is an overdose and so we

6:39

haven't had anybody die in our clinic

6:42

here. Okay, that's true, but

6:44

we're not trying to get people to

6:47

use destructive drugs

6:50

safely. We're trying to get them off

6:52

of the destructive drugs and my

6:54

problem with some of these programs is they

6:57

don't have a strong enough exit strategy. Right.

7:00

They got a strategy to get them into

7:02

the safe zone, but they don't have a strong

7:04

enough exit strategy to get them out into a

7:06

program that can actually get them

7:08

off of the drugs. Right.

7:10

That's why we have a social worker in

7:12

the building. Well, yeah, I got it. But

7:15

there's not really a strong enough

7:18

exit ramp to get them

7:20

out of the safe zone and in to rehab.

7:22

And they say, well, look at our

7:24

criteria, we don't have a single overdose and

7:26

there are people dying on the street, but they're not dying

7:28

in here. Well, that's surrendering

7:31

to the disease. Yeah. Yeah.

7:34

We're going to go along with you doing the

7:36

drugs as long as you don't die on our

7:38

turf. That's to me not

7:40

a solution. And I think in, what

7:43

is it, Switzerland? Yes. Or

7:45

was it? They actually have where they

7:48

get the people a job and the person has

7:50

to go to work and there's more step. Like

7:53

you said, the criteria is more than just,

7:55

Hey, you didn't die. Yeah.

7:58

That's a very low bar to hand. And

8:01

I don't think that's very much different

8:03

than how we look at the people

8:05

where we look at them like they're

8:07

the outcasts of society. Yeah, the goals

8:10

there are recovery and to move on.

8:12

And I think the goals here, those

8:14

are not the same goals. And actually,

8:16

you kind of look at where a

8:19

lot of the European countries were prior

8:21

to trying to bring these

8:23

types of policies in. They were doing what,

8:25

you know, San Francisco and other places are

8:27

doing, essentially just having safe zones and enabling.

8:29

But it actually didn't get to the underlying

8:31

root causes until they started getting, you know,

8:33

more intentional about treating people and weaning them

8:35

off. The ultimate goal is to have less

8:38

addiction, to have people recover, to have them

8:40

thriving jobs, not just to not have someone

8:42

die here. It kind of reminds me of

8:44

almost like the parent that everyone knew in

8:46

high school that allowed everyone to drink at

8:48

their house. And then it was like,

8:50

all right, you're safe here for the next four hours, but

8:53

on your way after that, like, it's

8:55

not really helping. You're enabling a problem

8:57

instead of actually trying to get to

8:59

that root cause. So having those interactions

9:01

between, you know, addiction specialists and doctors

9:03

and social workers and putting in safe

9:05

environments, great. But it's kind

9:07

of like with prisons, like, all right, you have these people

9:09

here, you have this captivated audience. What's the

9:11

next step? And we're not doing that next

9:13

step here. And it's looked at as empathy.

9:16

And I think it's coming from a lot

9:18

of the times, a good place of empathy

9:20

to try to help people. But we're really

9:22

not providing that you need to

9:24

stop doing the behavior you're doing or else this is only

9:26

going to get worse. And yeah,

9:28

it's just – it's a tough road. But yeah,

9:30

that's what we need to do. We're not doing

9:32

that. It's on the wrong predicate though, like the

9:35

parent who says, well, if my child's going to

9:37

drink, I'd rather him drink

9:39

here. Well, that's a big if. You

9:42

know, if your aunt had nuts, she'd be your uncle.

9:44

That's a big if, you know. So

9:46

you've got to say, if my kid's going to

9:48

drink, are you giving that up? If

9:50

your kid's going to drink at 14? Well,

9:53

you're saying here in these safe zones, if

9:56

you're going to do drugs, well, let's not

9:58

just accept the predicate to – that hypothesis

10:00

here, if you're going to do drugs, well,

10:02

let's not accept that you're just going to

10:04

do drugs. What if you don't? What are

10:06

we offering you as an alternative to that

10:08

and the answer is nothing? Yeah,

10:10

I mean you're almost,

10:12

you're saying that this behavior

10:14

is okay and you're not

10:18

providing an actual path away from it and

10:20

so why wouldn't they drink

10:22

and drive later on? Essentially, you're getting

10:24

kind of tacit agreement that this is fine. If

10:26

I could do it here. I can do it

10:29

anyway, yeah. Why not? And

10:31

then you have a lack of a law enforcement

10:33

approach when they're not doing things. So you are

10:35

in these open air drug markets and you're doing

10:37

that but it's not like there's enforcement beyond these

10:39

areas to actually help keep places clean

10:41

and the

10:43

thing that they're not doing as well and a lot

10:45

of the places like in Switzerland, they're actually

10:48

providing medical care through providing the

10:50

methadone or potentially and sometimes heroin

10:53

or the actual drug. A lot of the

10:55

root causes of crime are people trying to keep up with a

10:57

$200, $300 habit and

11:00

that's not getting to that. They're bringing their

11:02

own drugs there to essentially use in a

11:04

certain way but they're still having to rob,

11:06

deal, prostitute, whatever else to get the financial

11:09

means to get that and so you're not

11:11

actually tackling a lot of these underlying problems.

11:13

You're just kind of giving a

11:15

safe space for a couple hours and all

11:18

the other problems still exist and I

11:21

don't see how that's going to be effective long term.

11:24

Having the news all day can worsen

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I heard on the Newsworthy about the

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Phil. I deal

13:32

with a lot of these families that

13:34

have a heroin addict in

13:37

the family and they'll tell you,

13:39

look, we don't want them

13:41

dying under a bridge, but if we

13:44

let them come home and

13:46

we go to sleep, they

13:48

will come in our room. They'll

13:50

steal everything we own. They'll take

13:52

our credit cards out of our

13:54

wallets. They'll take money, jewelry, and

13:56

go out and turn

13:59

it into drugs. because we all know

14:01

if you're seriously addicted, you're going

14:03

to do whatever it takes to

14:05

get that next fix because you're

14:07

trying to avoid being deathly, deathly

14:09

ill. So what do

14:11

we tell those families? And they say, well, I'd

14:14

rather be in jail than under a bridge.

14:17

They can't come home. I don't

14:19

want them under a bridge where they're going

14:21

to get beaten, raped, robbed, killed, or

14:23

whatever. If they're in jail, at least I know where

14:26

they are. Well, I

14:28

suppose there's something to that, but

14:30

giving somebody three hots and a

14:32

cot so mom doesn't have to

14:35

worry is not

14:37

the objective of incarcerating people.

14:40

A, they're going to do drugs while

14:42

they're in jail, and B, the minute

14:44

they get out, they're going right back

14:46

into the system they were doing drugs with

14:48

before. So let's be specific.

14:51

If we're going to spend the next 50

14:53

years focused on something, what

14:56

are the three or four priorities that

14:58

the policy needs to focus on for

15:00

the next 50 years? I

15:03

think the biggest thing is to remove the incentives that

15:05

kind of proliferate the drug war first off when you're

15:07

talking about kind of just big government

15:09

and continue to turn the wheels. And so

15:11

one of the problems that we have right

15:13

now, and you see this all throughout the drug

15:16

war, is that there is an incentivization to

15:18

continue to make these low-level arrests

15:20

through either grant programs or whatever, or it

15:22

makes you look good. The more arrests you

15:24

have, the more prosecutions you get on these.

15:26

And we go after the lowest common denominator

15:29

because these are the easiest cases. And so

15:31

kind of removing some of those incentives away

15:33

saying that good policing doesn't look like the

15:35

amount of arrests you have. Good

15:38

prosecuting doesn't mean how many convictions you're

15:40

getting. And so we have

15:42

to really divorce those things away from each other. So

15:44

that's one policy standpoint I think we really

15:46

need to hit on. And then I think

15:48

a lot of this is taking a lot

15:51

of the resources and dollars that we're putting

15:53

in, just locking people up and trying to

15:55

find those alternatives and setting up actual statewide

15:57

healthcare centers that can come together

15:59

with law. enforcement and actually try to bring

16:01

people out with checks and balances and incentives

16:03

and carrots and sticks. And we shouldn't that

16:05

be ineffective and minor little, you know, studies

16:07

and things like that, but doing that on

16:09

an expanded level, I think

16:11

should be helpful. And then also kind of

16:13

implementing some of these things in practice in

16:15

a correctional facility. You know, one of the

16:18

things that we've been pushing for is, you

16:20

know, having some sort of medically, you know,

16:22

assisted treatment within jails and prisons. And because

16:24

of the lack of correctional officers, because the

16:26

lack of resources, or really the desire to

16:28

even do any of this stuff, people try

16:30

to, you know, try to get off or wean

16:32

drugs in jail in this horrific setting, when

16:35

we should be trying to kind of help them

16:37

bridge that if we're going to have in this

16:40

carceral area. So I think that's something that we

16:42

really, really need to start looking on. You've seen

16:44

a lot of effectiveness in reducing overdose

16:46

deaths, reducing addiction post release, if you're able

16:48

to kind of tackle that problem while they're

16:50

incarcerated, if we're going to continue to incarcerate

16:52

people for these types of things. And so

16:55

those are the I think the

16:57

main ones that I'm looking

16:59

at. And then a lot of it's with social stigma

17:01

with addiction still, I think there's still propaganda and a

17:03

villainization of people that utilize drugs. And this is a

17:06

behavior that we don't want, but that doesn't mean people

17:08

are evil if they go through that. And so I

17:10

think we're slowly seeing you know, Dr. Phil, one of

17:12

the things I that's been actually,

17:14

you know, a positive of kind

17:16

of the opioid epidemic and fennel

17:18

epidemic is that it has been hitting different social

17:22

areas. It's been hitting rural

17:24

places. So people that were kind of

17:26

at a distance from the drug war for a long,

17:28

long time are now seeing it face to face and

17:30

understand, well, that's Tommy, our neighbor's kid,

17:32

he's not a bad kid, he just he's a

17:34

screw up here and there and he messed up

17:37

here and he's gotten into some stuff or I

17:39

know Bob lost his job or I lost my

17:41

job or I got strung out on opiates, you

17:43

know, with a busted knee and now you know,

17:45

my doctor's on prescribe, like, you kind of see

17:47

it firsthand. And I think that changes people a

17:49

little bit. And so reducing that

17:51

stigma, I think will be a major

17:54

aspect. We're slowly starting to see that but those are kind

17:56

of the biggies from a policy perspective

17:58

that I could see. is much more

18:00

investment as a healthcare issue than a criminal justice

18:03

one and removing those incentives for the criminal justice

18:05

system to continue to both write off this. Clayton,

18:07

what do you think people need to hear that

18:09

are on drugs that's going to get them to

18:13

be drawn towards some kind

18:15

of help instead of hide

18:18

from people that are out there trying to help? What do

18:20

you think people need to hear that are on the drugs?

18:22

Man, that's a tough one. But I

18:25

think they need to know that it's people

18:27

that actually care about them.

18:30

And there's people out there that want to

18:32

see them a functioning member

18:34

of society. So, yeah,

18:38

I don't really know where to

18:40

begin. I think like I even I have people in

18:42

my family, like you don't know, we want

18:45

them to get the help. It's like you said,

18:47

you bring them into your house and they could

18:49

be good for max maybe two weeks before stuff

18:51

starts turning up missing. And everybody's

18:54

going to turn on them. And that's why they're

18:56

out on the street. That's why they cast out.

18:59

But I think there's people out there that, you

19:01

know, want to see them do well. But

19:03

it's from

19:06

what I hear, they got to hit that bottom.

19:08

You know, they got to they got to hit rock

19:11

bottom before they even start seeking help or they got

19:13

to get to such a low point that, you

19:15

know, it's

19:17

sad that that's the way it is. But that's

19:20

what I hear. So I think the

19:22

best thing people can do that

19:24

aren't on drugs is be

19:27

there and help guide

19:29

these people when they're trying to come back into

19:31

society and not just look at

19:33

them like they're the lowest piece of trash. Yeah.

19:36

And I think for me, it's trying

19:38

to show that they have value and

19:40

that they can provide something and actually showing that

19:43

in action. You know, I this

19:45

always sticks out to me when when I visited a prison,

19:47

there was a guy that was in and out of it.

19:49

It was either, you know, string of robberies or largely a

19:51

lot of it was underlying was drugs to kind of keep

19:53

that habit going. And he finally

19:55

got enrolled in a class while he was in

19:57

prison and he said something and the instruction

19:59

was there. he said, you know, said like,

20:01

Oh, you're really smart, you. And he's

20:03

like, that's the first time I've ever heard anyone say that. And

20:07

he had been like a model inmate since then. And I think

20:09

he's released at this point unless something else had

20:11

happened. But I do think it is that value aspect

20:13

that people don't see their value.

20:16

Once they get into this process, and they're living day in and

20:18

day out, just trying to keep this

20:20

fixed. And so can we provide

20:22

you with some value, either through

20:24

family reunification, through maintaining and earning,

20:27

you know, living accommodations, either through work or

20:29

treatment and things like that, I think earning

20:31

those types of things, not only does it

20:33

you kind of bring you out and give

20:35

you that incentive to stay within

20:37

this better environment, but it brings pride to

20:39

you, it brings something like there, there's nothing

20:41

more prideful than doing well at your job,

20:43

being able to buy a house or buy

20:45

that new car and like striving for those

20:47

goals and earning them, you know, you see

20:49

it all the time. It's like, even though when the lottery,

20:51

you know, they get a millions and

20:54

millions of dollars, and then they're bankrupt and

20:56

on their ass, like, really later, because they

20:58

didn't earn it, they didn't actually do that.

21:00

They just had blood sweat and tears like

21:02

clean. How amazing was it to probably open

21:04

for chappelle or when last time, so when

21:06

you'd done all those hours before going into

21:09

shitty comedy clubs across the country, opening

21:11

acts, all that open mic stuff like to

21:13

finally like hit that point peak. That's

21:16

what matters like that you're like, okay,

21:18

like I've made it like and that means so

21:21

much more than like, here's your

21:23

award or you're playing the forum tonight you didn't earn

21:25

like bigger this are

21:30

addicted is kind of learning

21:32

from Dr. Phil just now while we've been

21:34

sitting here is figure out what you want

21:36

to do. Figure

21:38

out what you want to do where you

21:40

want to be and it's so many people

21:43

who have came from addiction that have gone

21:45

on to be some of the most prolific

21:47

writers, actors, musicians, all types of beautiful

21:50

art has been created from people who if we

21:52

just looked at them in one point of their

21:54

life would be viewed as an addict. So yeah,

21:57

find something because comedy was

21:59

definitely that I think

22:01

you guys are hitting on it spot on

22:03

because I've talked to so

22:06

many hardcore addicts and

22:09

the first thing that jumps out at me is

22:12

they think they're living the life

22:15

that they're worthy of. If

22:17

they're prostituting themselves or

22:20

they're living on the street and they

22:23

haven't bathed for a month, they've

22:25

got head lice or whatever it is.

22:28

You talk to them and you listen

22:30

to their internal dialogue. If you can

22:32

get them to tell you what they're

22:35

telling themselves, you don't

22:37

ask yourself why they're doing it, you

22:39

ask yourself why not because

22:41

they're telling themselves that they're worthless

22:43

human beings and that if they

22:46

overdose, so what? It's

22:49

no big loss to their family, to

22:51

society or whatever. Anytime you

22:54

start telling somebody, you need to do this,

22:56

you need to do that, you need to

22:58

do this. Defensiveness

23:01

goes up really high but

23:04

if you approach them like both of

23:06

you just said it, if

23:08

you approach them from the

23:10

standpoint of saying, hey, I

23:12

love you, I care about you, you

23:15

deserve better. I

23:18

want treatment for you, I want help

23:20

for you because you

23:22

deserve it. You deserve a

23:24

better life, you deserve this help and

23:27

then the focus has to be on making

23:29

them feel like they're

23:31

worthy of receiving

23:34

that help. I can tell you

23:36

how many times I've had addicts sitting on stage

23:38

with me and I stop

23:40

and say, let me

23:43

ask you something, you're here right now

23:45

with me on this

23:47

stage and you have the undivided

23:49

attention of my team over the

23:51

last week and me now and

23:54

all these people here, how

23:57

do you feel about that? You would

23:59

think they would say, fortunate.

24:01

I feel like I'm really, and their

24:03

response invariably is, I don't

24:05

deserve it. Right. I'm

24:08

not worthy. I'm sitting here

24:10

with you and there are 10,000 people that

24:12

want to be in this chair. I'm not worthy

24:14

of being here. Somebody else should be here instead

24:17

of me. And somebody

24:19

else your team should have been working with.

24:21

And you're offering me

24:23

this amazing rehabilitation

24:25

opportunity and all

24:28

this professional help. And I don't

24:30

deserve it. It's clear to me that the

24:33

fundamental threshold you have

24:35

to cross over is they have

24:37

to decide, I am worthy

24:39

of it and I'm going to live up to that. If

24:42

we had spent 50 years

24:45

helping these disenfranchised, marginalized, no

24:47

gold, no passion people to

24:50

feel worthy that they can

24:52

require more of themselves and they deserve

24:54

more of this life, I think we'd

24:57

be a lot further along than we

24:59

have been arresting them and

25:01

locking them up for half

25:04

an ounce of this or a half a gram of that.

25:07

If we'd taken all that time and effort

25:09

and help them feel better about who they

25:11

were, then you treat yourself better. Yeah.

25:14

Yeah. And we're not doing that.

25:16

No, it's exactly right. And just

25:18

like any war, to be effective,

25:20

you have to essentially turn your

25:22

population through propaganda against this enemy. And

25:25

that's what we've done. Just vilify this

25:27

population and made them seem

25:29

like they're lesser than. And

25:31

that's been by practice. That's not

25:33

a flaw in the system. That's been

25:36

by design. So they're able to increase

25:38

sentences. So you can do all these things

25:41

with civil assets forfeiture. We take people's stuff

25:43

without convicting them of a crime. We were

25:45

able to utilize a no knock war and

25:47

essentially deprive people of these liberties because of

25:49

this war, because drug addicts are

25:51

bad and they're villains. They are the enemy of

25:53

this war. And we have done that over

25:56

and over again, rather than saying, this is a

25:58

problem. This is some behavior. that we don't

26:00

want in our society, but the way we get out

26:02

of this is love, empathy, and value in these people

26:05

around the other way, just like anything else. I mean,

26:07

think about, you know, beating your kids, spanking

26:09

your kids, you know, doing all these things to

26:11

children, you know, we would not accept, like, it's

26:13

not that hard. It's not rocket science to understand.

26:16

It's not anything different than

26:18

what you're saying, just how you do parenting or

26:20

being a teacher, anything else, just teaching people how

26:22

to be people and providing value in their lives.

26:24

That's what we're supposed to do as a society.

26:26

And we have utterly failed this, you know, population.

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27:39

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to save $30 off your first

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month, plus get a month of

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board certified nutritionist support. Laura

28:46

Nyreider is a clinical professor

28:49

of law and co-director of

28:51

the Center on Wrongful Convictions

28:53

at Northwestern Pritzker School of

28:55

Law in Chicago. Laura

28:57

represents individuals who were wrongfully

28:59

convicted of crimes when they

29:01

were children or teenagers. Her

29:04

clients have included Brendan Dassey,

29:07

whose case was profiled in the

29:09

Netflix global series Making

29:11

a Murderer, and Damian Echols

29:14

of the West Memphis Three, whose case

29:17

was profiled in the documentary West of

29:19

Memphis. Dave Thompson is

29:21

the president of Wicklander Zerlowski

29:24

and Associates Inc. He is

29:26

also a leader in non-confrontational

29:28

interview and interrogation training. He

29:32

doesn't want to demonize police in any way,

29:35

and like me, is a supporter

29:37

of law enforcement. But

29:39

there are some that abuse the

29:41

system. Dave incorporated

29:44

evidence-based investigative interrogation, which

29:46

focuses on building genuine

29:48

rapport, asking open-ended

29:51

questions, and using academic research

29:53

to train for investigative interviews.

29:56

Together, they have a collaboration that,

29:58

let's face it, is not a good idea. it

30:00

is a bit unexpected, a defense

30:02

lawyer and a law enforcement

30:04

trainer, which they will also

30:07

tell us about. Well, let's talk

30:09

about how this came about because,

30:12

frankly, a defense lawyer

30:14

and someone that works on the police

30:16

side of interrogation and training police officers

30:19

on interrogation, these are not birds of

30:21

a feather usually. So the two of

30:23

you together, which I love, by the

30:26

way, and we've worked together before,

30:28

you've been on the show, the three of us, and

30:31

I found both of you provocative and

30:33

informative. But how did this come about,

30:35

the two of you together? Well,

30:37

I'll let Dave tell the story, but it's

30:39

just been one of the most incredible partnerships.

30:42

And you're right, it's not every day that

30:44

a defense attorney comes along and becomes

30:47

a close colleague of somebody

30:49

who's dedicated to training law enforcement. So I

30:51

like to think of our evolution here as

30:54

a way to build bridges and come together

30:56

around the really important issues, wrongful convictions. No

30:59

one wants the wrong person convicted. Everybody wants

31:01

the right person to be taken off

31:03

the street until the innocents get to go home

31:06

at night. So I think that's the foundation for

31:08

this. And Dave, you can tell the story of

31:10

what introduced us to each other's work. Yeah,

31:13

and I think there's probably no better time to

31:15

talk about this. I mean, we're in such a

31:17

divisive society right now, whether

31:19

it's politics, criminal justice, or any

31:21

kind of reform. And

31:23

the simple way to put this, and you

31:26

mentioned Brandon Dassey's name earlier, like most

31:28

people, I sat and watched Making

31:30

a Murderer and binge watched it over a weekend

31:32

several years ago. And I

31:34

saw the interrogations of

31:37

Brandon Dassey, and I have

31:39

the wonderful opportunity to work for

31:41

an organization that has a platform of teaching law

31:43

enforcement. And so when I saw what happened there,

31:46

I kind of recognized that if

31:48

we don't say anything, that's just as good

31:50

as us blessing and recognizing that that technique

31:52

was permissible and it's a reliable confession. I

31:54

didn't believe that. So I had the chance

31:56

to reach out to Laura and some others

31:58

involved in the case. From

32:00

there, realize that we're really not on two

32:02

different sides of the same argument. We're really

32:05

on the same one. We're looking to make

32:07

sure law enforcement has effective tools to solve

32:09

cases and protect public safety. And I think

32:11

we've actually seen more that we have in

32:13

common than we actually have a part throughout this partnership.

32:16

Well, I think you do too. And I said

32:18

some of this when we've talked before, but I

32:21

really worry sometimes about

32:25

the government and in

32:27

this situation, prosecutors

32:31

who do become abusive. I

32:34

mean that at several different levels. But

32:37

as I've said before, I think

32:39

they forget what their job is. And

32:42

their job is to seek

32:44

justice, not a conviction. I

32:47

think sometimes they get into a

32:49

case and they get involved ego-wise

32:51

and time-wise and career-wise,

32:55

they get bought in and

32:57

they go after a conviction

33:00

as opposed to a just

33:02

conviction. So they'll

33:04

do virtually anything to get that

33:06

conviction once they start down that

33:08

path, whether it's just

33:11

or not. And I can't believe that

33:15

some of these prosecutors

33:17

don't know when

33:20

they've gone past the

33:22

line and say, I've

33:24

taken liberties here in getting a confession.

33:26

I've taken liberties here in

33:29

getting someone to say something that

33:32

a reasonable rational interrogation

33:34

in the bright light of day with

33:37

proper support in place would never have

33:39

been given. Is that a

33:41

fair statement or am I being too critical? I

33:43

think you're spot on. I think you're spot on. I mean, I

33:45

think that tunnel vision is

33:47

a real thing that sets in, Dr. Phil,

33:50

when you are in the

33:52

position of prosecuting somebody, of telling

33:54

a story about what it is

33:56

they did. I think it can

33:58

be real easy for that tunnel vision. to set in and

34:00

make no mistake, right? I mean, all of us are

34:03

vulnerable to that. All of us get wedded

34:05

to our own narratives. There's no question about

34:07

that. And that's why I think

34:09

this partnership that Dave and I have forged

34:11

has been so incredibly valuable. Because we

34:14

can serve as checks on each other. We can

34:16

bounce ideas off each other. Am I getting too

34:18

much, you know, in my own place, the tunnel

34:20

vision here, right? So those are

34:22

the conversations we have all the time that are

34:24

so useful as we think about

34:26

moving forward. Right, and you mentioned, Dr. Phil,

34:29

the prosecutor perspective here. And I think it's

34:31

important to see how that trickles down to

34:33

the detective, right? I like what

34:35

you said, you know, their goal is to

34:37

seek justice, not a conviction. And when we

34:39

look at the interview or the interrogation, the

34:41

goal should be, how do I obtain actionable

34:43

intelligence versus a confession? And it's

34:45

that mindset shift of, let's

34:47

get rid of this presumption of guilt. And instead,

34:49

let's enter a conversation with the goal of, let

34:51

me obtain as much information as possible so

34:54

that we can further investigate. But, you know,

34:56

we've got this kind of CSI law

34:59

and order effect where everybody thinks the goal

35:01

of every conversation is to get the I

35:03

did it. And in fact, that promotes

35:06

the tunnel vision that Laura just spoke about.

35:08

Yeah, I'm always concerned when you look

35:10

at the evidence and you

35:13

see there are interrogation

35:15

methods that are long

35:18

embraced and used by probably

35:21

the vast majority of interrogators.

35:23

They include certain

35:26

things such as lying to a suspect, misrepresenting

35:32

evidence, things that have

35:35

been constitutionally protected in many ways.

35:38

Those same things are used with

35:41

sophisticated intelligence suspects

35:44

all the way down to those that

35:46

are intellectually challenged. And when we look

35:49

at the number of

35:52

false confessions, that

35:54

lead to wrongful convictions, it

35:57

goes up dramatically when you use

35:59

those. techniques with those that are

36:01

less equipped to recognize and fend

36:04

them off versus those

36:06

that are equipped to recognize and fend

36:08

them off, which tells

36:10

you that it's not a level

36:12

playing field. If you

36:14

have someone that's got an ADIQ

36:16

and no support system and you

36:18

use those techniques, you're going

36:20

to get two, three, four times as

36:23

many false confessions as you do with

36:25

a sophisticated suspect. So they

36:27

have to know that they have tipped

36:29

the playing field. Dr. If

36:54

they're only trained in one technique, that's the only thing they're going

36:56

to use. We like to look back

36:58

and instead of always faulting the officer is

37:00

what tools were they given in the first

37:02

place to be successful? What we're seeing now

37:05

are things like trauma informed interviewing to recognize

37:07

people that have been exposed to trauma, how

37:09

that impacts their memory and their recall. We're

37:12

looking at the social science of when

37:14

we say juvenile or youth, now we're looking

37:16

at upwards towards the age of 25, not

37:18

traditionally 18. I think the

37:20

more we know that we can educate investigators on, they

37:22

want to do the right thing, but we need to

37:25

provide them the tools to do so. I

37:27

mean, I think that's one of the most important things that you're doing,

37:29

Dave, and that we're doing in partnership. The

37:31

amazing thing is I

37:33

think most people don't know that police

37:36

are allowed to lie to kids during

37:39

interrogations, much less that police

37:41

have been trained to do just that.

37:43

This is being taught in all 50

37:45

states to our police officers or to

37:48

our law enforcement that was out there

37:50

on the streets. They're

37:52

being taught to use these techniques. The

37:55

history here is fascinating to me, these

37:57

techniques in which we deceive and

38:00

and manipulate people during interrogation.

38:02

Now these techniques were invented way back in the 1940s and

38:06

1950s, and they have gone

38:09

untouched. They are still in use

38:11

today, even though now

38:14

that DNA has been invented, we're

38:16

realizing that people are falsely confessing

38:18

due to this manipulation so much

38:21

more often than anyone would ever have

38:23

thought. So we're at

38:25

this moment now of realization, thanks to

38:27

DNA technology, that these old outdated techniques,

38:30

it's time to get rid of them

38:32

and do something new. I work with law

38:34

enforcement as well, doing training and all, and

38:36

I've been asked over the years so many

38:38

times, is Steven Avery

38:41

guilty and is Brendan Dassey guilty?

38:44

I've given the same answer every time, and that is all

38:47

I can tell you for sure is that neither

38:49

one has ever had a fair trial. Don't

38:52

know if they did or didn't. I

38:54

can tell you what I think, what I know,

38:57

is they've never had a fair trial. Well, look,

38:59

I can speak only as Brendan's lawyer, but I've

39:01

represented Brendan Dassey for 15 years now. And

39:05

my work on his case of getting to know

39:07

this young man who was 17 when I met

39:09

him, he is 33 years old now. I

39:14

am so proud to represent

39:16

Brendan Dassey. The only evidence

39:19

connecting him to this murder is this

39:21

confession we're talking about, where he's not

39:23

even able to describe what happened. I

39:26

mean, every citizen who cares about

39:29

truth, who cares about due process,

39:31

who cares about reliability in our

39:33

criminal justice system should be

39:35

jumping off their couches and rushing

39:38

out there to make sure that this doesn't happen

39:40

again, not to Brendan, not to

39:42

any other special education student, not to

39:44

any other kid, not to any of

39:46

us. The way the

39:49

system let that boy, now man, down,

39:53

is just heartbreaking. Laura

39:57

provided the opportunity for us a few weeks ago to

39:59

chat with you. with Brendan and

40:02

just I think it's important for

40:04

me to be able to say how kind

40:08

and inspiring Brendan

40:10

Dassie is and I can't imagine anybody I've talked

40:13

to you I know we had Terrell

40:15

Swift on your show anybody I've talked to you

40:17

that's been kind of a victim of this

40:19

process it just amazes me the hope

40:22

and the positivity and the focus that they

40:24

have because they know who they

40:26

are and they know what they did or did not do and just

40:28

Brendan just one of the most the positive most

40:30

inspirational piece of this whole puzzle I think yeah

40:33

you know he's he's 33 as I

40:35

said and you know Brendan has I've watched him grow

40:37

up and he's grown up into this unbelievably

40:41

kind gentle

40:44

funny person who

40:46

still has he still

40:49

has this childlike faith

40:52

that one day justice is gonna come for him

40:55

you know it's remarkable after making a murder

40:57

all these people around the globe millions and

40:59

millions of people saw his

41:01

story they started writing Brendan

41:04

letter right from all over

41:06

the globe you've got these letters you

41:08

still get like five or ten letters

41:10

every day really ordinary people

41:12

who just you know it's nothing profound or

41:15

eloquent who just put down on a piece

41:17

of paper hey Brendan you

41:19

know hang in there I'm thinking of

41:21

you I believe in you hold your

41:23

head up high you know the truth is gonna come out this

41:25

kind of stuff he he still gets

41:27

these letters every day he keeps them

41:30

and he writes back to as many people as

41:32

he can you know given his limitations

41:34

he writes back to as many people as he

41:36

can because those those letters you

41:38

know finding their way to his

41:40

prison cell in rural Wisconsin some

41:42

from Australia some from you

41:44

know the other side of the country some

41:46

from just down the street in Wisconsin those

41:48

letters give him an enormous amount of hope what

41:51

is next for him and what's it

41:53

gonna take for him to

41:56

get released get reconsideration

41:58

get a fair trial What's

42:00

it going to take? It's going to take

42:02

courage, Dr. Phil. It's

42:04

going to take courage. You know, if someone in Brendan's

42:06

position legally right now, the

42:09

best option is to go to

42:11

the governor of Wisconsin and

42:13

seek executive clemency. In

42:15

this case, a commutation, which means a

42:18

cutting short of a sentence, essentially an

42:21

act that would free him. So that's

42:23

all that's left? That's

42:25

Brendan's best option right now by a

42:27

mile. So right now, we

42:30

are in a process of education,

42:32

of collaboration, you know, reaching

42:34

out to folks around the state

42:36

of Wisconsin, hey, have you heard

42:38

about Brendan Dassey? Come talk to

42:40

someone like Dave, right? A law

42:42

enforcement authority who knows what

42:44

he saw when he saw those tapes,

42:47

who's shown those tapes to 50,000 cops

42:49

around the country to train them. You

42:52

know, come and just sit down with us,

42:55

talk with us, watch this video, meet Brendan.

42:58

And you know, I guarantee

43:00

once you approach this case with

43:02

an open mind, there's only one

43:04

great decent thing to do, which

43:07

is free Brendan Dassey. And what is

43:09

his sentence right now? He was sentenced to life

43:11

in prison with the first possibility

43:13

of parole in 2048 when he will

43:17

be 59 years old. That's

43:21

right. That's right. Good

43:23

God. You know, and one of

43:25

the amazing things, Dr. Phil, is because of all

43:27

these problems with his case that we're talking about,

43:30

during his trial when he was on trial back

43:33

in 2007, the

43:35

prosecutors actually offered him what they call

43:38

a mercy plea. No

43:40

strings attached, just say you did it, we'll give you

43:42

15 years in prison. Don't

43:44

have to testify, nothing, just say

43:46

you did it 15 years. He

43:48

said, no, I didn't do it. I want to go to

43:51

trial. I want to get through this

43:53

trial. I want to prove my innocence. Now

43:55

because he went to trial

43:57

and was convicted because people don't

43:59

understand. and why someone would

44:01

falsely confess, right? Now

44:04

he's got life in prison. He's done way more than 15 years.

44:06

He's coming up on 17 years now. Yeah,

44:08

he would be out. That's right. That's right,

44:10

but he stuck to his principles and it landed him

44:12

a life sentence. Wow, that's

44:15

sad. Nobody knows. But

44:18

like I said, what I know for

44:20

absolute certain is he has

44:22

never had a fair trial and

44:25

he certainly hasn't had a fair shake. I'm

44:27

having lunch this afternoon

44:29

with Marty Tankliffe. I

44:31

worked on his case back

44:34

when he was still in on trying to

44:36

get him out. And as you

44:38

know, he was exonerated. Yeah. Became

44:41

an attorney, is now

44:43

adjunct professor at Georgetown and

44:46

works on just these kinds of cases

44:48

and has a family.

44:51

And you just hope when you

44:53

give people the chance they deserve,

44:56

you see what happens. It's just astounding

44:58

to me. No, it's what you

45:01

were saying before, the resilience that these folks show

45:04

and the humanity that we're

45:06

locking up wrongfully in these cases. Marty's a great

45:08

example. Dave, you know Marty as well as I do.

45:11

Yeah, Marty's again, another example of an inspiration.

45:13

He's helped testify in some of these legislative

45:16

hearings to get policy change. He's been a

45:18

great support. And

45:20

I think, if

45:22

you go real quick back to Brendan's case and

45:24

I mentioned we used some of these examples in

45:27

our training, among other cases and

45:29

examples. I tell Marty's story all the time. Most,

45:32

if not all investigators identify the same

45:34

thing when they watch these tapes. And

45:37

I don't know the investigators that were involved in Brendan's

45:39

case. I don't know their mindset at the time. But

45:42

when I talk to investigators today, when

45:44

they reflect back, I'm sure they

45:46

wish they would have done things differently. Even

45:48

just because of the reliability or unreliability that

45:50

comes from those statements and the approach that

45:53

was used. I think

45:55

that's powerful. We've got investigators across the

45:57

globe that recognize there's an issue with

45:59

the reliability. of that information. And as Laura

46:01

said, that's the information that was used to convict.

46:04

And so we've got a simple math problem here. Yeah,

46:07

that's shocking. So what

46:09

is the solution? A lot of what is

46:11

being done, I think it's

46:13

generous to say that it's confirmation

46:17

bias. I think it's generous to

46:19

say that it's tunnel vision. I

46:21

think that there's just

46:23

a lot of, I don't

46:26

care. I've got somebody in the box

46:28

here and my

46:31

job is to get a conviction. I'm going to get

46:33

a conviction. I've worked with so many

46:35

of these prosecutors who have just

46:37

told me straight up. I came over here, A, to

46:39

get experience in front of a jury, and

46:42

B, to build up a one loss record,

46:44

hopefully perfect. And then I'm going to jump

46:47

to the defense side of the docket so

46:50

I can then start recruiting these cases

46:52

and say, Hey, I was a

46:54

prosecutor. I was your worst nightmare. I never

46:56

lost a case. I know how to beat

46:58

these cases because I've been on the other

47:01

side. I think they've

47:03

got an agenda. Some of these

47:05

guys have an agenda and then they're

47:07

going to jump to the other side of the docket and try

47:09

to get rich off of it. I

47:11

think there's more larceny in their hearts

47:13

than just

47:15

simple confirmation bias. But

47:18

what do we do? How do we fix

47:21

this? What does the legislation need to call

47:23

for? Well, I can speak to the law

47:25

enforcement piece of this. There's

47:28

a slide I have in our PowerPoint that says if

47:30

it ain't broke, break it. And

47:32

part of the first thing that we have

47:34

to do when we're training investigators is identify

47:36

they've used techniques for the last several decades

47:38

that in their mind have been successful because

47:40

they have successfully solved some cases. And so

47:43

the first thing we have to do is

47:45

educate what all of

47:47

these potential tactics are that can be a problem.

47:49

The second thing we have to do in

47:52

conjunction with that is provide education on what

47:54

training does work. About almost a

47:56

year ago now, my hometown of Buffalo, New

47:58

York, we had a shooting around the state of New York. racist

48:00

attack at a grocery store, sentencing was just about

48:02

a week ago, you had 10 people in our

48:04

community were killed, and if you have to go

48:06

interview the witnesses to

48:09

a shooting, you can't

48:11

be relying on these deceptive tactics or assuming

48:13

how they're gonna respond. You need to understand

48:15

how trauma impacts those witnesses. And the same

48:17

thing applies in all of these cases, is

48:20

providing a tool for investigators to go

48:23

get information. From a legislative piece, the

48:25

last third piece of this remedy, is

48:28

making sure not only policy, and

48:30

a department reflects new training, making sure

48:32

that's bought in from the command staff,

48:34

top down, making sure the prosecutor's office

48:36

knows what a reliable confession looks like.

48:39

And if all that doesn't work and it hasn't, we

48:42

have to know that about 30% of

48:44

wrongful convictions contained a false confession. Which

48:48

means about 30% of

48:50

these had confessions that were admitted by

48:52

the courts as voluntary. And

48:55

so the important piece of legislation is

48:57

to provide the courts a screening tool

48:59

to identify if all else fails, this

49:02

shouldn't be used as evidence in

49:04

a conviction against potentially innocent persons. So I think

49:06

those are the least of the three prongs that

49:08

we're working on on this side. You

49:10

know, I just throw one other thing into the mix

49:13

here that I think another thing that surprises people,

49:15

ordinary people, is the idea

49:17

of prosecutorial immunity

49:20

and police immunity. You know, I mean,

49:23

for those of us who are just, you know, doing

49:25

our jobs, living our lives, you

49:27

make a big mistake at your job or if

49:30

you do something intentionally wrong at

49:32

your job, you know, all of us can be held

49:34

viable. People can sue us, right? I can

49:36

get sued as a lawyer for malpractice. We can all

49:38

get sued in different ways, held accountable for

49:41

the things that we do wrong. But what's

49:43

wild is that for police

49:45

and prosecutors, it's not the same,

49:48

right? They have been carved out

49:50

of that system and given special immunity.

49:53

So if you are a prosecutor, and let's

49:55

say you're a bad guy, and

49:58

you decide to intentionally frame

50:00

someone for murder knowing that they're

50:02

innocent right the worst of the worst of the worst

50:05

things you can do Send them away

50:07

to prison for life or maybe to death row and you

50:09

do this on purpose You

50:11

cannot be held liable Under

50:14

the law because of immunity right

50:16

and police officers have qualified immunity that

50:18

act to protect them even if they

50:20

do things Intentionally

50:23

wrong and I think that's a huge part

50:25

of the system. That's got to be fixed

50:27

too We can all be held accountable to

50:30

each other and there's no reason to take

50:32

a couple of groups of professions police Prosecutors

50:34

and treat them different than doctors or teachers

50:36

or you know other important people with

50:39

important responsibilities in our society Yeah,

50:41

I think we're all three saying the same

50:43

thing think about how many interrogations go on

50:46

how many interviews or Interrogations

50:48

however somebody approaches it Go

50:51

on every day. I think the

50:53

vast majority of them don't

50:56

have ill intent I think

50:58

they're trying to get to the truth get to

51:00

the bottom find out what happened and hold the

51:02

right people accountable I'm a

51:04

huge supporter of law

51:06

enforcement from the bottom to the

51:08

top but Man

51:10

when you get something that goes awry I

51:13

think depriving someone of their liberty

51:16

in the United States is a

51:18

very high standard and it should

51:20

be Depriving someone

51:22

of their life is the highest of

51:24

high standards and well it should be

51:27

There's got to be some kind of Standard

51:31

some kind of review Check

51:34

and balance system here and having

51:36

spent so much time in the litigation arena I've

51:40

told my staff here if

51:42

you get stopped you get in

51:44

juxtaposition to some crime You

51:48

don't want to say anything about

51:50

anything to

51:52

law enforcement you need to get a

51:54

lawyer and Don't say anything

51:57

what advice do you guys give? to

52:00

your friends off the record if

52:02

there's been a shooting, an

52:04

incident, a bad car wreck, something

52:07

that they're even tangentially

52:09

involved with. What do you tell

52:11

people when the police show up?

52:13

How do you tell them to conduct themselves? I'll

52:16

answer that because I think it's unique from

52:18

my perspective. Call an attorney. And I think

52:20

the same thing happens. I think police officers

52:22

that we train tell their family the same

52:24

thing. Because even by saying,

52:26

obviously, be respectful and cooperate, which

52:28

makes sense, but cooperate is

52:31

part of the problem. Because we all perceive

52:33

what cooperate means differently. If that's starting to

52:35

give up information that you don't realize is

52:37

going to incriminate yourself, even if

52:40

incidentally is an obstacle. And even with

52:42

kids, so parents that are listening, parents

52:45

are often the worst person to be in the room with

52:47

their child during an interview. They're

52:49

not giving good legal advice. They can be victim

52:51

of the same technique. So you

52:54

have the right to representation, use it. No

52:56

question about it. You know, I'm a mom, I've got

52:58

two little boys in school. And

53:00

one advice I give my mom friends

53:02

out there is put

53:05

a letter on file with your kids principal at

53:07

their school saying, you know what, if a police

53:09

officer shows up at school, wants to

53:12

question my child, right,

53:14

this child, I'm asserting for them their

53:16

right to a lawyer in this letter,

53:18

they have representation, I will get them

53:20

representation. I do not want them questioned

53:22

without me and without a lawyer.

53:24

Well, what good advice right there from both

53:26

of you. And I hadn't thought about the

53:28

letter. Dave, I agree with

53:30

you 100%. I've had cases where someone has died in

53:32

the home and the

53:37

spouse's parent has shown up

53:40

to support. And

53:42

they just took them to the

53:44

police station as

53:47

witnesses, not as suspects, and

53:49

listen to them talk. The

53:52

spouse says, just feeling guilty.

53:55

It says, Oh my God, I just feel

53:58

horrible. I just blame. myself,

54:02

that was the beginning of

54:05

them winding up in prison and

54:08

ultimately committing suicide. And

54:12

it began with them saying to their

54:14

parent, I blame myself.

54:17

That's terrible. And they didn't

54:19

mean I caused the death. It's just I

54:22

should have been there. I should have, you

54:24

know, been more sensitive. I should have seen

54:27

this coming. I should have, you

54:29

know, how you self-recriminate when you

54:31

didn't foresee something and they

54:33

wound up in prison and

54:36

couldn't take it. And

54:38

both of the children wound up without a

54:40

parent because one was dead and the other

54:43

killed himself in prison. And

54:46

it all started with, I blame myself. I

54:48

think we see the same. It's a terrible,

54:50

but a good example of that. I think we

54:52

see the same often with wrongful

54:55

death of a child or child abuse of

54:57

teachers, parents, caretakers

55:00

that feel this guilt and remorse and they're in

55:02

this kind of state of trauma after something happened.

55:05

And those types of spontaneous

55:07

utterances can be easily misconstrued

55:09

or used in the wrong

55:12

way. So I think that's really, really

55:14

important advice. Yeah. And as we

55:17

know, admission against interest is of

55:19

exception to the hearsay rule. So

55:22

they can use that and you're screwed. I just tell

55:24

them, don't say a word. It's

55:26

too bad because I think that so

55:29

many of these people that are the

55:32

detectives, the investigators are out there really

55:34

trying to figure out what

55:36

really happened. And the bad thing is when you

55:38

get a false confession and you can pick the

55:40

wrong person, that means the wrongdoer

55:42

is still out on the street. Yeah.

55:45

And I think part of that is you

55:47

asked for advice for maybe parents or listeners,

55:50

but the law enforcement folks that are listening

55:52

or those that have a phone and want

55:54

to call and see how their department's training,

55:56

when you look at investigators right now, most

56:00

maybe annually or bi-annually, they have

56:02

to get qualified on how to shoot a weapon, how to

56:04

fire a weapon. They have to get trained

56:06

and certified on use of force, on a taser, on

56:08

how to drive their vehicle. But for interview

56:10

and interrogation, which is we're talking about this

56:12

whole session here and how powerful that is,

56:15

it's often go to a two or three day class

56:17

or learn on the job and one

56:19

class for 20 year career, you're good. And

56:22

what we need is more required

56:25

mandated education and and accountability

56:27

when people aren't compliant with it, just like every

56:29

other task that they have on the job. And

56:31

because we're now seeing how powerful these

56:33

tools are when they're used improperly. Yeah,

56:36

people don't know the psychological subtleties

56:38

of this and what's going on.

56:40

We know psychologically, if you can

56:42

keep somebody from making a denial,

56:45

if they start to make a denial and you

56:48

can stop them short, even if

56:50

you just jump in and say their name,

56:52

if they start to say, I didn't date,

56:54

let me ask you something else. If you

56:56

can just stop them, they're a lot more

56:58

likely to ultimately confess if you don't let

57:00

them dig a hole and they

57:02

have a face saving way out. There

57:04

are so many subtleties that people don't understand.

57:07

And if they're using all of those things

57:09

to back somebody into a corner, if you're

57:11

a civilian, you can't know what all is

57:13

going on in there. You need

57:15

to have a lawyer and you need to zip it.

57:18

You never have to talk to him ever,

57:21

ever. Correct. If you are charged with a

57:23

crime, you never have to give an interview

57:25

or a statement. Correct. That's

57:27

exactly right. You never need to and you

57:29

should not do it. Instead,

57:32

you ask for that lawyer.