0:00

Heads up, audio listeners, you're about

0:00

to hear a videotaped conversation.

0:04

For the full experience

0:04

you'll find a video version

0:06

of this episode on Spotify or YouTube.

0:13

All right, so we were just talking

0:13

about the fact that you just realized,

0:17

or remembered that you're actually

0:17

in a competition here at Cannes.

0:20

You're in the <i>Un Certain Regard</i>

0:20

competition.

0:23

Yes, so I just met this guy

0:23

who was working for the jury,

0:27

for the <i>Caméra d'Or</i>, best first film.

0:30

And then he remind me

0:30

that is a real competition.

0:34

So I'm like, "Oh, fuck." So I just told him, like,

0:36

you know, actually

0:39

my two favorite film from last year,

0:39

which is <i>Aftersun</i>...

0:42

- Oh yeah?

0:42

- And it won, anything?

0:45

And there is this, <i>As bestas</i>

0:45

a Spanish movie,

0:49

which I really loved, didn't get anything.

0:52

So I was like, what does that mean?

0:54

Well, maybe you shouldn't win.

0:57

Yeah. I don't know,

0:57

it's always...

1:01

That is writer/director Baloji.

1:03

And you just witnessed

1:03

a rare moment of him at a loss for words.

1:08

Born in the Republic of the Congo,

1:08

he moved to Belgium as a kid

1:11

where he became a rap star. And just like his music,

1:13

his movies have a lot to say.

1:17

Case in point, the film

1:17

he premiered at Cannes called <i>Omen</i>,

1:20

which starts out

1:20

as the story of a Belgian named Koffie.

1:23

He travels back to Africa to get

1:23

his family's blessing on his marriage.

1:27

But soon, the movie turns into something

1:27

wilder and deeper.

1:31

A feverish vision of a society

1:31

that sees demons everywhere.

1:34

And of outsiders

1:34

banding together to change that.

1:39

I'm Rico Gagliano. This is the MUBI Podcast.

1:42

Welcome back to our special

1:42

season of conversations

1:45

from the 2023 Cannes Film Festival.

1:54

This is episode six. Baloji talking about <i>Omen</i>.

1:58

And about his filmmaking hero

1:58

who was also screening a film at Cannes.

2:02

I'm personally a big fan of Steve McQueen.

2:04

- Yeah, my God.

2:04

- For multiple reasons.

2:07

Also, the fact that he's coming

2:07

from a different art form than cinema.

2:11

Just like you. And I know that cinema

2:13

has, like, this box, this culture,

2:17

that if you're filmmaker,

2:17

this is what you do.

2:20

And you cannot express yourself

2:20

in different art form,

2:23

so that mean that... If somebody is multidisciplinary,

2:25

it means it doesn't have discipline.

2:30

Really? Do you really think that is?

2:30

Because to me it's spectacular,

2:32

the fact that you can excel in multiple

2:32

artistic avenues, is like

2:36

pretty remarkable. You don't think so?

2:40

I'm glad to hear this, but... But the reality you just remind me that,

2:42

that is not the case.

2:47

That the fact that I didn't,

2:47

I'm not trained,

2:50

I didn't went to film school.

2:53

It's an issue. And most people just say

2:54

"You're a rapper, stick to rap."

2:59

Because I present already three films,

2:59

two film commissioned from 2012...

3:04

And in 2018, I get sick of it.

3:08

Because I went to some sch...

3:08

some script training,

3:12

and they all try to make me,

3:12

to mold my movie in the...

3:17

In the way to make sure that it

3:17

get accepted by the film commissions,

3:21

instead of telling your real story

3:21

or the story that you really...

3:25

That is inside you

3:25

that you're dying to do to talk about.

3:29

There's a style that you think the film commission

3:31

is looking for? Yeah, because they want that we look

3:33

at the film in a very Western perspective,

3:38

European perspective,

3:38

and it's an issue.

3:41

So that's why in <i>Augure</i>, <i>Omen</i>,

3:41

I really try to play with this,

3:46

so to give the feeling that the

3:46

movies about Koffie going back home

3:51

is like the typical back

3:51

to my country story.

3:56

But it's basically a McGuffin

3:56

like it's this, it's this Hitchcock trick.

4:00

Like, actually koffie, he's not the

4:00

victim because he can leave.

4:07

He's in Congo for a few

4:07

days and then he go back.

4:10

The real victim is the mom that has to

4:10

stay there and she has no other options.

4:16

It is interesting, too,

4:16

'cause reading the description

4:19

of the piece, it's like I was

4:19

prepared for what it becomes,

4:22

which is this kind of

4:22

phantasmagorical trip through Africa.

4:27

But it does, it starts off I'm like,

4:27

I seriously was like,

4:30

"Is this the right film?" Like, did they send

4:31

me the right screener?

4:33

It was... And I was kind of like, "Oh, yeah,

4:35

there's a story here that's cool."

4:38

And then it's like,

4:38

it eases you into this, like,

4:41

beautiful madness kind of thing. And this was by design, you're saying?

4:45

Yes, I tried, but at the same time,

4:48

I'm a big football fan, and in every World Cup, I notice that,

4:55

you know, if you watch

4:55

England, everybody's a coach.

4:59

So if you watch a movie,

4:59

everybody's a director.

5:02

So everybody say, even my daughter,

5:02

14 years old, she watch a movie

5:06

say "Ah, now he's going to do this."

5:08

And because we trained to think like this,

5:08

because that's the way

5:12

we consume so much content every day.

5:15

So that's why when I mentioned a movie

5:15

like <i>Aftersun</i>, I think it's refreshing,

5:19

because you don't get it,

5:19

the way that it's supposed to be.

5:24

I think we need this. We need to dive into an experience

5:29

without having our rational mind

5:32

that tells us how to tell a narrative.

5:35

I'm a big fan of Italian cinema

5:35

and the Antonioni, Fellini

5:40

puzzlingly films,

5:40

and this is really

5:44

this candor and decadence.

5:46

Yeah, it's just

5:46

you have the big frame

5:49

and the very small one. Like the big story

5:49

and the small one at the same time.

5:53

I just love when when the narrative is

5:53

just as complex as we are as human being.

5:59

We're not... we're not one dimensional.

6:02

We're just full of layers.

6:02

This is human being.

6:05

Let me ask you, since you had mentioned

6:05

this earlier, going from rap to film.

6:10

- Yeah.

6:10

- It's, I mean, what was the...

6:13

Can... Is there a connection to you

6:13

between the two of them?

6:16

It's the narrative. - Telling a story

6:17

- That's right. For example, for this project,

6:19

I did something that really changed me

6:23

as a, as a person

6:23

because it learn me empathy,

6:28

because I made like an album from

6:28

the point of view of my characters.

6:32

And I know that in school, film school,

6:35

they always talk about the point of view

6:35

and the back story.

6:39

And I literally did this in music, so,

6:42

and it took me a long time to,

6:42

for example, do an album for

6:46

Tshala, the sister of Koffie, was...

6:49

was a 35 year old woman

6:49

who doesn't want to have kids,

6:53

was dating male and female

6:53

and has this freedom.

6:56

And how me as a cis-gen

6:56

man can be on her point of view.

7:02

So it took me a moments

7:02

to getting to this, and

7:05

it really helped me to

7:05

communicate with the cast,

7:08

communicate with the team

7:08

based with the music as a tool

7:13

for us to understand better

7:13

the situation just like a storyboards.

7:16

Just think all these element

7:16

that we put together.

7:19

You just reminded me that we, I've done

7:19

a terrible disservice to the people,

7:22

most of whom will not have seen this movie

7:22

by the time this comes out, very shortly.

7:26

- Even when we tape it. - I hope they will. But let's get a quick rundown.

7:30

Very briefly.

7:30

You've kind of gotten the idea across.

7:33

It's, you know, a coming home movie.

7:35

But give us the details. What's the film about, so to speak?

7:39

So the movie, it's a

7:39

four different point of view films

7:43

about characters

7:43

consider as sorcerers and witches,

7:47

in the African landscape

7:47

and how they help each other,

7:53

to fight against this patriarchal

7:53

structure, this misogynist structure.

7:59

What was the original impetus

7:59

for telling, for those themes? I guess.

8:04

Oh, there is a lots of reasons,

8:04

but the main one is that

8:10

my name is Baloji,

8:10

which technically means man of science,

8:15

but with Christianity in Africa it means

8:15

man of bad science, or black magic.

8:21

And in the last 50 years

8:21

it becomes sorcerer.

8:25

And it's like I say, often,

8:25

it's like calling yourself devil or demon.

8:29

So people are just like, "Whoa." Seriously? Did you do that consciously?

8:33

Even some... Part of the team, they were like,

8:35

"I'm not going to say your name out loud.

8:39

I'm scared. I..."

8:41

Or you go to the radio, they don't dare to say my name.

8:44

Like, for example, I just received a message from the Belgian

8:45

the Congolese government people,

8:49

that's coming to Cannes

8:49

and they don't dare to say my name.

8:53

So they like "Mr. Tshiani"

8:55

So they're like, "No, that's not my name.

8:55

My name is Baloji.

8:58

"You can say it. You don't curse yourself saying it."

9:01

So this is something that I have in me

9:05

to be considered

9:05

as connected to bad force and

9:10

which is not the case. And it's interesting to navigate

9:16

how our societies build on this.

9:18

- You made a movie called <i>Zombies</i>.

9:18

- Yes.

9:21

A short, music filled.

9:25

It's beautiful. Right now, like, in

9:26

this moment, I'm trying to find what the connection is between the

9:28

two because I feel like there might be.

9:31

I know visually, I feel like there's a connection. - There is.

9:33

- But I mean, what do you think thematically?

9:36

Because for those who don't

9:36

know, it's about... "About" it's kind of

9:41

more of a short

9:41

and more kind of impressionistic.

9:45

But it's kind of about people

9:45

who are like stuck in the social media

9:49

world in a way

9:49

that are walking around like zombies.

9:52

But I mean, the idea of zombies,

9:52

this movie is about witches.

9:55

There's something like the

9:55

idea of curses, and like evil.

10:00

What... Is there a connection? Did you think about there being one?

10:03

No, but I see your comment, I think it's interesting.

10:05

I didn't win that war. But it's...

10:09

Let's do it now. - Yeah, let's do this.

10:10

- Let's figure it out. Therapy.

10:14

- So... - I do kind of feel like this is weird. So are you obsessed with horror film?

10:17

- No, not at all, actually.

10:17

- Is that true?

10:20

It's a genre that I don't really like.

10:22

And yet you're like, you're dealing with... I think for me a horror

10:24

film that I like is... Ari Aster.

10:29

Oh, yeah. Oh, right. That's for me, something that

10:31

I'm like, "Wow, this is spectacular."

10:35

It's psychological, okay. Yeah, that's where it stops.

10:38

Really quickly I wanted to ask you because we just completed a season

10:40

about music and movies, okay?

10:43

- Okay.

10:43

- Specifically needle drops and movies.

10:46

- Okay. - And kind of, like really going

10:47

deep on some of them.

10:49

- And I...

10:49

- Needle movie, that's really, okay.

10:52

Yeah, but the, you being a musician,

10:52

it just suddenly occurs to me

10:56

that I should ask you, like, what

10:56

is like the, off the top of your head,

11:00

like the greatest needle drop

11:00

in movies. Or like,

11:04

at least the one that comes to mind,

11:04

One that excited you?

11:06

What you mean by needle drop? Like a movie, the song

11:08

that already existed

11:11

and the director

11:11

dropped it into their film,

11:13

and it like, kind of recontextualized

11:13

it like, you know...

11:17

What would be an example, you know, Tears for Fears in the

11:19

movie <i>Donnie Darko</i>. Not a good one?

11:23

- That's a really good one. - Okay. That came to mind because

11:25

we did an episode about it. Ok. Wow, that's an incredible one.

11:32

Wow. Yeah, that's a tough one.

11:35

Yeah. We'll just sit here for a couple of hours

11:36

while you mull it over.

11:39

There is a movie that we watch

11:39

with my editor.

11:43

It's a Tarantino movie.

11:45

And it was the...

11:47

It's <i>Pulp Fiction</i>, fuck!

11:50

So we watch <i>Pulp Fiction</i>

11:50

because we watch a lot of his film

11:54

because narratively it changes

11:54

point of view, or sometimes with genre.

11:59

What's the name?

11:59

<i>Foxy Brown</i> it...

12:03

it tells the same story

12:03

from different etc..

12:06

So we watch a lot of his movies - just because we were in that process and,

12:07

- <i>Jackie Brown</i>.

12:11

<i>Jackie Brown.</i> Yeah, <i>Foxy Brown,</i> that's

12:11

another one. That's a rapper.

12:14

Um, sorry.

12:18

And I this scene...

12:21

when Thurman is dancing with Travolta.

12:25

Oh Uma Thurman's dancing

12:25

with him, what is it, is that...

12:28

Is that <i>Don't You Know,

12:28

You Never Can Tell</i>, is that what...

12:31

♪ C'est la vie say the old folks,

12:31

Don't you know you never can tell ♪

12:34

Oh, you sang it.

12:37

This scene to me, is incredible because I

12:39

think if you do this in '23,

12:43

you make it super

12:43

short, like 25 second,

12:48

and dude, don't care.

12:50

It just let you play the whole song.

12:53

Even the moment that is a little bit weak

12:57

That they don't really know how to dance and they're doing some weird things,

12:59

and just to see it now.

13:03

Yeah, I was like, oh shit, I didn't

13:03

remember that scene like this because

13:06

of course you get the move, when you do all these things and

13:07

that's, that's the thing that stand out.

13:12

But the scene is really like, whoa...

13:15

Yeah. And to pick that song, there's

13:15

a million songs that you could drop there.

13:18

It's a dance competition scene. - They could play anything.

13:20

- They could play anything. Somehow that song works.

13:23

Why does that song work? And it creates something

13:24

special into this film.

13:28

And I love that. Sometimes I think like, one day

13:30

I would love to do a musical.

13:36

Yeah? Well, yeah. I'm surprised you didn't start

13:38

with the musical because you're...

13:40

Yeah, but just because

13:40

the industry will be like,

13:43

oh, of course

13:43

the musician's doing them...

13:46

But I think when, when it's...

13:48

done like Lars Von Trier, and...

13:52

it, it goes somewhere else.

13:54

- <i>- Dancer in the Dark.</i> Yeah.

13:54

- Yeah, it's magical.

13:57

What is your next project

13:57

I guess would be my next thing.

14:00

Because you can do,

14:00

it could be a rap album.

14:03

It could be... So I'm doing the albums,

14:03

I'm doing like exhibition projects

14:07

with all the the costumes of the film

14:07

and the photographs we did.

14:12

And then I'm working

14:12

on a short film called

14:17

<i>Black Dahlia.</i> It's about, again, feminism, about...

14:23

a group of woman

14:23

living into their own society.

14:27

And I'm most of my focus

14:27

is on my second feature film.

14:30

Why the focus on female

14:30

characters? I wonder.

14:35

Because the same way I think racism is a

14:35

white problem, white people problem.

14:39

I think feminism is a man issue.

14:45

Because it doesn't help us neither.

14:47

We have to understand

14:47

that there is something wrong with the way

14:50

our society is structured

14:50

as a male oriented structure.

14:56

So it's important that we

14:56

we change it as men.

14:59

I think it has to come from us. Writer/director Baloji.

15:04

Quick fact check, turns out the

15:04

film he mentioned earlier <i>Aftersun</i>

15:08

actually did win a prize

15:08

when it played Cannes.

15:10

Which is okay because shortly

15:10

after this interview, so did <i>Omen.</i>

15:14

It earned Baloji the New Voice Award. Look for his movie

15:16

later this year. Meanwhile, this episode

15:17

of the MUBI Podcast was written and hosted by me,

15:19

Rico Gagliano.

15:22

Ciara McEniff produced along with

15:22

Elodie Fagan and Josefina Perez-Portillo.

15:26

Prachi Mokashi edited the show, and

15:26

Michelle Cho is our supervising editor.

15:30

Yuri Suzuki composed

15:30

our theme music.

15:32

Our camera crew in Cannes

15:32

included Cédric Hazard, Alice Desplats,

15:35

Rob Godfrey, Solal Coulon and Mathis Toti.

15:38

Special thanks to MUBI's

15:38

addition team in Cannes,

15:40

Eric Issenberg, Sam Leter,

15:40

Ilyass Malki.

15:43

This series is executive produced

15:43

by me, along with Jon Barrenechea,

15:46

Efe Çakarel, Daniel Kasman

15:46

and Michael Tacca.

15:49

And of course, to stream the best in cinema head over to MUBI.com to start watching.

15:53

Next episode, the hilarious

15:53

and provocative Joanna Arnow.

15:57

And by the way if Baloji looks like

15:57

he's towering over me in this video,

16:01

that's because he was. When he walked into the studio, his first

16:02

words were, "Hi, it's great to meet you.

16:06

And yeah, I know I'm really tall."