0:03

The dual scandals of a double

0:05

standard for anti-Semitism on campus and

0:07

academic plagiarism have plagued Harvard this

0:09

week, as the university's board chose

0:11

not to remove President Claudine Gay.

0:14

The controversial decision comes despite

0:16

Gay's widely criticized congressional testimony

0:19

and evidence that she improperly used

0:21

other academic scholarship in her publications.

0:24

In this episode, we talk with Dr.

0:27

Carol Swain, whose work is among that

0:29

scholarship used by the Harvard president. I'm

0:31

Daily Wire editor-in-chief John Bickley with Georgia

0:33

Howe. It's Saturday, December 16th, and

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this is an extra edition of Morning Wire.

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today. Joining

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us to discuss the Harvard presidential scandal

1:21

is Dr. Carol Swain, senior fellow for

1:23

the Institute for Faith and Culture. Dr.

1:25

Swain, thanks for coming on. Now,

1:28

you are a tenured professor in the Ivy

1:30

League, Princeton, and you've been very outspoken on

1:33

this situation as your own work appears to

1:35

have been plagiarized here. First, what

1:37

do you make of the Harvard

1:39

board unanimously deciding to support Claudine

1:41

Gay after her congressional testimony and

1:43

now allegations of plagiarism? I

1:46

see it as a low point

1:48

for American higher education that

1:51

Harvard University would

1:53

try to redefine plagiarism so

1:56

that it can retain its

1:58

first ever black president. who

2:00

was clearly promoted based

2:02

on diversity, equity, and

2:04

inclusion standards. And

2:07

I would argue that her record,

2:09

even if she had not plagiarized

2:11

her articles, would not normally

2:14

have supported tenure in

2:16

the Ivy League. And I

2:19

say this as someone who was tenured

2:21

early at Princeton, and the

2:23

standard in the Ivy League used

2:25

to be that you had to

2:28

have a major, path-breaking publication. And

2:30

the book that she lifted a couple of

2:33

passages from, Black Faces, Black

2:35

Interests, the Representation of African

2:37

Americans in Congress, was

2:39

a book that won three national prizes, including

2:42

the highest prize a political conscious

2:44

can win. It was

2:46

cited by many law court decisions and

2:49

the U.S. Supreme Court. And it

2:51

was considered the seminal work in

2:53

the area of minority

2:55

representation and representation in

2:58

Congress. And so

3:00

that's the book that she

3:02

really lifted passages that were

3:04

not that significant, but her

3:06

entire research agenda was on

3:08

minority representation on Congress. And

3:11

even though she had one site

3:13

of me in her bibliography, normally

3:15

when you draw on the research

3:17

of a leading scholar in a

3:19

particular area, you have to engage

3:22

that work. You have to let people

3:24

know, you know, why you're asking the

3:26

questions that you are. She

3:28

didn't do that. She did not engage

3:30

my work either to refute it, to

3:32

affirm it, to acknowledge it. And

3:35

I would argue that that harmed me in

3:37

my career, even though I wasn't aware

3:39

this was taking place, because

3:42

in academia, your statute depends on how

3:45

many times you are cited. If

3:47

someone is in the area where you

3:49

were the path breaker and they are

3:51

not engaging your ideas,

3:54

It has long term consequences. And

3:56

So her work, in my opinion,

3:58

is derivative of mine. I've

4:00

only she got away with it because I

4:02

was fallen. Out of favor in

4:04

academia because of it's become an

4:07

increasingly conservative. And. You're

4:09

one of several professors whose work

4:11

was improperly used in days ridings

4:13

allegedly. University of Pittsburgh, George Read

4:15

and Fruits has acknowledged that Gay

4:17

did borrow a few of my

4:19

phrases, as did you Chicago economist

4:21

Djinns Ludwig both said they don't

4:23

think it really rose to the

4:25

level of plagiarism, but and Williamson

4:27

of Miami University, Ohio said it

4:29

does look like plagiarism to me,

4:31

and she actually said she was

4:33

shocked by the passages Gay lifted

4:35

from her work. Have you review

4:37

these passages under question. I've

4:39

looked at. The sexes from my

4:42

own work and the articles that

4:44

have pulled out passages in other

4:46

people's work side by side. And.

4:49

I would argue that it is

4:51

plagiarism and as a journalist would

4:53

lose their job over it. And

4:57

it's particularly troubling. Because.

4:59

It wasn't just her dissertation,

5:01

it also included the published

5:03

works that she presented for

5:06

tenure. And I would encourage people

5:08

to look at that senior. Thesis wrote

5:10

it's an put it won a

5:12

prize for dissertation, won a prize.

5:15

Of was the senior thesis, Pledged

5:17

Rise. That's. Where they need to

5:19

look nice. The. New York

5:21

Post is now reporting that Harvard

5:23

actually threatened them legally when a

5:25

reporter reached out about these allegations

5:27

back in October, which is surprising.

5:29

Harvard has issued a statement addressing

5:32

briefly the plagiarism charges. They said

5:34

they did their own review and

5:36

did find some instances that were

5:38

problematic and are now requesting for

5:40

corrections in two articles. Is

5:42

that an adequate response? It's.

5:45

Horrible. What? They see

5:47

do is. If. They want to

5:49

keep her own. their fact for the

5:51

certainly she should make those corrections, but

5:54

normally don't. Get a do over

5:56

in my mostly by held accountable

5:58

we all. make mistakes She

6:00

made a mistake and I believe that

6:03

if they want to keep her on the faculty

6:05

of Harvard, okay Just give her

6:07

mercy allow her to make the

6:09

correction But she should not be

6:12

the president of Harvard University With

6:14

that record of plagiarism and the

6:17

equal outcomes the equity that

6:19

we associate with neo Marxism and

6:22

DEI is like affirmative

6:24

action on steroids and

6:26

that is what has advanced her and

6:29

I believe what if Keeping her in

6:31

her position is that Harvard doesn't

6:33

want to embarrass itself by firing

6:35

its first ever black

6:37

President so they would rather hurt their

6:39

brand than to get rid of a

6:42

woman that should be fired and she

6:44

should have been fired already Some

6:46

people say refusing to remove gay was Harvard's

6:49

way of sort of thumbing their nose at

6:51

the Supreme Court's recent affirmative action Decision against

6:53

Harvard. What do you think about that? Absolutely,

6:56

and I was born in 1954

7:00

the year of the Brown versus Board

7:02

through the segregation case for the

7:04

Supreme Court ordered integration

7:06

of public education in all

7:09

deliberate seats and

7:11

the response in many places

7:13

was massive resistance and They

7:16

resisted up until the late 1960s

7:19

in Bedford County, Virginia where I went to school

7:22

So I see that same thing happening

7:24

is that just like the elites Resisted

7:27

the Brown versus Board of Education desegregation

7:30

case the elites at these

7:33

institutions have decided that they're going to

7:35

resist the Supreme Court's

7:37

decision to end race-based

7:40

discrimination and so I

7:43

believe that we need to hold them accountable that

7:46

white people Asian people Christians

7:48

any group that's been this

7:50

favorite in violation of the

7:52

Civil Rights Act of 1964

7:55

and the equal protection clause they

7:57

need to document what is taking place

8:00

They need to file lawsuits, and we need to

8:02

shut it down. It shouldn't take 10 years or

8:04

20 years of them

8:06

continuing to discriminate against people

8:08

or finding proxies to continue doing

8:11

what they're doing. Now,

8:13

one question about the other issue at

8:15

hand here, the double standard for anti-Semitism

8:17

on campus. Is there

8:19

a double standard? If the protests and

8:21

chants against Jews and Israel were taking

8:24

place against blacks or even LGBT people,

8:26

would Harvard and some of

8:29

these other Ivy League schools have pointed

8:31

to context as necessary to determine whether

8:33

or not that was problematic? If

8:36

the Jewish students were black, it

8:38

wouldn't just be Harvard and the

8:40

Ivy League, but all of

8:42

America, every institution, the Biden administration,

8:45

every government would have shut it

8:47

down immediately. The police would have

8:49

shut it down if it had

8:52

been black students being

8:54

harassed and being threatened by white

8:57

students. That is the

8:59

double standard. I,

9:01

myself, I'm just shocked

9:04

at how Jewish Americans are being

9:06

treated in America today and

9:08

the hatred towards Israel. To

9:11

me, if there's a civil lining,

9:13

it is that the Jewish people

9:16

on the college campuses, some

9:18

of them are awakening to the fact that

9:21

the progressives are not their friends. You've

9:24

been an advocate for viewpoint diversity

9:26

in higher education. In fact, you

9:28

just published a book that addresses

9:30

this issue directly, The Adversity of

9:32

Diversity, how the Supreme Court's decision

9:34

to remove race from college admissions

9:36

criteria will doom diversity programs. What

9:39

are your thoughts on how having more

9:41

representation across the political spectrum could have

9:44

helped Harvard avoid this controversy? I

9:46

can tell you that I'm an

9:49

advocate of education. I spent 28

9:51

years in academia. I took early

9:54

retirement from Vanderbilt in 2017. You're

9:57

pretty much in the heat of a controversy because

9:59

of an opinion. They'd that are

10:01

published criticizing islam. Created.

10:03

A fast on an

10:05

Alice academia. But. I

10:08

saw the change has taken is

10:10

it started right after President Obama

10:12

was elected. I saw the Critical

10:14

Race theory. That. Had been

10:17

mostly confined to certain departments

10:19

of the university that it

10:21

started rapidly in Sc Every

10:23

our department. And I

10:25

saw changes that may at

10:27

academia very uncomfortable for people

10:29

like me. And I

10:31

saw the decline of education

10:34

to the point that they

10:36

did not even give lip

10:38

service to. Universe is being

10:40

marketplace of ideas. Where. You

10:42

would have diverted voices. Alas,

10:45

To speak, all of that started

10:47

to die. At American

10:49

colleges universities and as a

10:51

consequence. These. Institutions have a

10:54

laugh themselves to become. Indoctrination

10:56

centers and if we want.

10:58

To educate young people if we

11:00

won't strong leader is if we

11:03

want people that have qualified to

11:05

take positions of responsibility in society.

11:08

We. Have to expose them to

11:10

dapper to ideas. Are. You

11:12

could not develop critical thinking skills

11:14

unless you saw me it. Uncomfortable

11:17

unless you hear new ideas. That's.

11:19

Not taken place in the indoctrination

11:21

soon as we have today. And

11:24

I also know that if you are conservative.

11:26

On university campuses. If. You

11:28

are deeply Orthodox. Well, this

11:31

Christian Jewish. it's set. Up and

11:33

such a way. That. If you

11:35

don't fit in. The. Universe.

11:37

These are very uncomfortable

11:39

places. And. So their students

11:41

who live in fear. Is

11:43

no way you're going to get a

11:45

quality education if you so afraid to

11:48

gonna offend some once you came as

11:50

quests and. That's. Not what

11:52

higher education. Should be about. And

11:55

so I believe that. We.

11:57

Have to make changes. And I also believe

11:59

that. Changes are already half they have.

12:01

Spoken this year at several

12:04

universities. And. I believe that

12:06

universities are realizing that the value

12:08

of the product that they produce

12:10

and has declined to the point

12:12

that many young people. I decided

12:14

that. They. Don't necessarily need a warrant.

12:17

A. College Education. And.

12:19

I have met time. We're very wealthy

12:21

and grandparents were telling me that the

12:23

money they save up for that off

12:25

springs education that they had given them

12:27

and offs and they can take the

12:29

money and start a business or they

12:31

can go to college. And some

12:34

universities higher education. These

12:36

institutions are suffering because

12:38

right now. They. Are

12:40

not offering a quality product.

12:43

Of is no doubt that the perception of

12:45

universities has been shifting from medically in recent

12:48

years back to swim. Thank you so much

12:50

for coming on. Sections that was Doctor Terrell

12:52

Swain, author of the Adversity of Diversity In

12:55

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