In this episode my guest is Melissa Boggs. Melissa helps leaders and employees design an intentional employee experience that bridges the cultural and generational gap between them, increasing engagement and inviting joy for all.

The key to engagement is not “fixing” employees or leaders, but enriching the relationship between them. I help design organizational structures and cultures that amplify the strengths of everyone, changing hearts and minds about what is possible at work.

Melissa shares her experiences and thoughts on creating mutually, trusting relationships that bridge the gap between leaders and employees.

Melissas website: http://melissaboggs.com/

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Transcript

Scott: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to the latest edition of how might we, and in this episode, Mike guest is Melissa and we will be talking about how might we create mutually beneficial relationships. So welcome, Melissa, would you like to introduce your.

Melissa: Hello, thank you for having me. Sure. My name is Melissa Boggs.

I'm a keynote speaker and a leadership coach. I focus on employee experience design, and I work with leaders and their teams to bridge the gap between them. And like you said, build mutually beneficial relationships at work.

Scott: Okay. So, I mean, I, I like playing around with the trust and I think that's sort of the.

And a big thing about leadership is having those relationships with people that are, that are two way rather than just a one way. Whereas you think this staff have to do stuff for us to trust them, but it's much more, the other way is as important the other way around as well.

Melissa: Absolutely. And I think this is one of the things [00:01:00] that we can miss sometimes as leaders is we have to show up first in fact, because we have.

The, you know, greater power in the power dynamic, we must take the first step toward trust. We must be the first ones to live our values and, you know, show up and be transparent as much as we can. When we do that as leaders, then it opens the door and allows, you know, our, our teams and our teammates to do

Scott: the same.

Okay. So is that like us being role models, leadership, as in the, with role models, this is what we would like people to do. And this is how we are going to act, demonstrate what it's like

Melissa: in a way. I mean, that's part of it, but I would say also, it's just simply that when, when you have the power in a dynamic, you know, then you have to open the door first.

[00:02:00] If. If you don't humanize yourself, , you know, and become approachable, then you can't have an expectation that someone who is. You know, watching you is going to make themselves, I guess that's what it's about. It's about vulnerability, right? If you don't make yourself vulnerable as the one who has more power in a relationship, you cannot possibly expect someone else to make themselves vulnerable either.

One of my favorite stories when I was the co CEO of scrum Alliance, I was quite new in that role. And. Consider myself to be a humble leader and a leader who listens, et cetera, et cetera. And so I kept using this phrase. So my title was actually chief scrum master, and I kept saying to people, okay, I'm gonna take off my chief hat.

and my intention was like, Hey, like we're just two people. I just wanna listen, you know, tell me what you're thinking, et cetera, et cetera. And [00:03:00] I remember so clearly sitting down with this in a one-on-one with this dear woman, and she was maybe a bit older than me, more experienced and. But yet she was my employee.

And so we're having this conversation and I used that phrase. I said, okay, I'm gonna take my chief hat off. And I want you to, you know, be honest, like tell me, et cetera, et cetera. And she goes, she puts her hand on my arm. Like it was so gentle and kind, but she was like, honey, I need you to understand that.

No matter how many times you say that you cannot take off your chief hat, no matter what you say, you are still the person who signed my paycheck. And that was like a ton of bricks. I mean, that was a slap in the face, not from her, but like the, the reality of it that I, I can't just be like, oh, you know, just be real [00:04:00] with me.

I have to be real with them. First. I have to be vulnerable with them first. I have to. Kind of work double time to create a safe place for us to have a discourse because no matter what I say, you know, I have the power in the relationship. It, it, I had the power in that relationship. And so we can think that we're the cool leader, but actually like we have to work extra hard to create that relationship and, and space in that relationship.

Scott: So it's interesting cause you hear it quite a lot or don't just imagine I'm not the CEO either, but in reality you can't cuz you always are.

Melissa: Exactly. Exactly. And again, that was a big awakening for me. I, I remember just thinking, like, no matter what I do, there's a weight to my opinions, so I need to not share them unless it's important.

You know, if, if they're just opinions that actually, [00:05:00] maybe I need to hold them and give other people space because whether I like it or not, there's a weight.

Scott: I mean, that's an interesting word. So apart from that sort of holding back your opinions, unless you thought it was important for you to express an opinion, what other impacts do you think the insight you got from that your, your member of staff's?

Just that, as you say, sometimes that one comment just hit you like a ton of bricks and then you had to reevaluate so many things.

Melissa: So that was the main one to be honest was just like the weight of my opinions. And. Often when, when I was saying things like that, like, oh, pretend I'm not the CEO or, oh, I'm taking off my cheat hat.

It was just because I just wanted to say something like, I just wanted to like babble off some words. And so when I found myself about to say that I would ask myself, like, is it really important for me to say this right now? You know, even if it's an important thought to share at some point, is it important [00:06:00] right now?

And. It made a difference in like the space that I was creating because I would, I would just wait and I would hold it. Again, in order to make space, it's not that my opinions were not important or, you know, the leader is no longer valuable, obviously, you know, there's value. But if we're talking about wanting to hear from our teams and our teammates, we have to recognize that you.

Leaders spin the conversation whether they want to or not. So if you're gonna say, okay, I wanna know if everyone likes fruit lobes better or Cheerios. I like fruit lobes better. What do you think everyone's gonna say? right. Let's realize I use very American-centric cereals, but but you know, you're gonna swing the conversation one way or another.

If you go. And so I think that was one of the things that, that kind of said to me is I couldn't go, I wanna know, you know, if everyone likes fruit loops or Cheerios, I'm gonna take off my chief [00:07:00] hat and tell you that I like fruit loops does not make a difference. Everyone's gonna say fruit loops, not everyone, but you know, you're gonna sway the conversation, whether you realize it or.

Scott: Okay. So you've had, so having that sort of, that create that space pausing, and the question is, yeah, I've got an opinion, but is it necessary right now? Mm-hmm I think is it, is it so that's, do you think it's a really important question for us to ask ourselves before we express an opinion or a thought?

Melissa: I think so. And actually, I think that's true of everyone, but just especially of executive leaders who are trying to create.

Scott: Okay. So being aware of the moment and saying, is this appropriate for this moment in time to, or will it damage that space that we're trying to create? So how did you find that your staff started to, to respond to you now that you've created that space for them, and you were creating that space and withholding your opinion to you thought it was necessary to express it?

Melissa: It took time for sure. But eventually[00:08:00] I did start to hear more from them. You know, I did start to hear their creativity and their ideas, which frankly were often better than my. I might have been like holding something back and be like, oh, I have this idea. And then sometimes they would say exactly what I was thinking or sometimes what they said was even better.

And so, you know, a little mental, like pat on the back to myself, I'm like, Ooh, good job shutting up. Good job.

Scott: I wonderful managers could do that. Say how many times I can. I congratulate myself for being quiet or shutting up.

Melissa: Exactly. It's a new metric for leaders. It might be an amazing, yeah. Yeah. How many times can you be

Scott: quiet?

That would be an interesting thing for people to say, how many times did I actually manage to bite my tongue or shut up in a conversation.

Melissa: And, you know, the funny thing is that the, the more that I did it, the longer that I did it, the easier it became, because I started to see, oh, wait, that was a way better idea.

You know? Like, and so then it becomes easier to just [00:09:00] be quiet cuz you're like, okay, I've I've given them. So here's another important thing when you are going to. Keep quiet. I would focus on making sure that they had any context that I had. And another, another big thing I'm really big about is boundaries.

So if I want them to have, you know, their entre entrepreneurial spirit, and I want them to self organize and I want the team to have space to be innovative and creative. And I'm going to shut up then I need to make sure that they have context. They have the information that I have. They have the data that I have and then that they have boundaries.

And so I am good with anything you decide, you know, that is in this context and in these boundaries and then trust that and follow through with it. And. And be true to that, I guess. Cause often we'll say, oh, you make the decision and then they'll [00:10:00] make a decision that we wouldn't have made. And we just reverse it.

Like you can't do that. But giving them the context and giving them some boundaries and then just saying like, I trust you, like now I'm gonna follow you because I'd given you what's necessary to make a good decision. Now I'm gonna follow you down this path. And I learned so much by doing that because they, sometimes they're closer to the problem.

Sometimes they just have a different perspective. And so yeah, the more that we can shut up as long as we have given them what they need, which is what we generally have as leaders.

Scott: Okay. So the context and the boundaries. So I just wanna, we'll talk about those two separate. I'm gonna go the reverse order, cuz the boundaries fascinate me a little bit more than the context.

His context is generally data isn't it's information that we have. But the boundaries, I think are an interesting concept to look at. So when you talk about setting boundaries, obviously about these relationships you've done in your experience as a [00:11:00] CEO and what you do by going into organization and helping them create these relationships, what types of boundaries do you think are the more effective or efficient ways of doing that?

That was a really poor question. That was a really bad, I got you question. We're good. Really badly phrased question. So

Melissa: there's, there's two types of boundaries in my mind. I'm sort of making this up on the spot actually, but when you ask the question, I was thinking of like, there's the boundaries within like the specific problem we're trying to solve or the specific, you know, idea that we're trying to hatch, so to speak.

And so when it comes to that, it might be something. I always use numbers. It's gonna sound strange, I think, but when I'm talking to leaders about it, I say, whatever one and three is, right. You say to your team, if whatever decision you come up with, this is the outcome I want. And as long as it's between one and three, I [00:12:00] am going to support the decision period.

Right? Don't say one in six. If you're not gonna be able to support it between three and six, right. If it's too wild or too big or too broad. So first of all, you have to be able to set boundaries that you were going to be willing to commit to and be true to no matter what happens. And, you know, I'm using numbers very generically, but it might be something like, you know, as long as I'm thinking about software, as long as it achieves this outcome and, and users are able to do this, then I don't care how you get there.

I don't care what the solution is, as long as they can do this at the end, but don't say don't give some big, broad thing, you know, as long as it can. Turn on. I don't care what it does after that, when you're not gonna be able to support [00:13:00] that. Because the number one thing, in my opinion, that causes distrust is when we give people authority and then we reverse it.

So we say, here, go do this. And then they come back after working really hard on something, pouring their sweat and tears into something. And then the leader either. Completely reverses it or nitpicks it to death, you know, and like basically undoes everything that people have done. They will never be innovative again, at least not with you, if that's how you treat it.

So you have to be careful about the boundaries that you set. And make sure that you can be committed to them. And then the other kind of boundaries are sort of more principle based boundaries. And those might be something more like. Here is how, you know, like a set of core values that can be like a principle set of boundaries.

This is how I wanna see you all work together. [00:14:00] Or this is how I want you to interact with me based on these core values. And I think those are really important too, cuz often it's not just what we build or you know, what we create, but how and how we go about it in the company.

Scott: Yeah, I'm glad you went to values.

Cause I think that's where I was gonna go with the boundaries cause I think they give you so value is a guideline. Isn't it? Where the rules, sometimes a black or white is at least a value is something that I can operate within that, which gives them quite a lot of freedom, but also means that there's a level of consistency in how we work, but freedom the sake.

But I know also that thing about being very clear about what you are going to agree. Is what you are willing to agree to or capable of agreeing to. So I think understanding your own levels of acceptance, and also, I suppose, as a leader, where does your authority lie? Mm-hmm so what can you actually say?

Yes, no matter what you do, I can sign it off and make sure that what you are telling you can sign off is something you actually have the authority to do. So as well. [00:15:00]

Melissa: Exactly. And one thing I hear a lot is the reverse of that, which is what am I allowed to say no, to. And making that very clear. And then again, backing them up when they say no to something, because there's nothing worse than, okay.

We don't ever want everyone to be overworked. We want everyone to have work life balance. So you're allowed to say no to something. And then the minute you say no to a customer or a client, the boss goes, oh no, we can make that work. We'll figure it. Like wait, but so the authority to say no to something is also super important.

Scott: Never thought of that. I think that's a really good perspective. What do we say? No. And some of it's interesting was in a, had a conversation with somebody the other day. And the CEO was like outlining where they wanted the organization to go and what the priorities were. And then as we were talking said, see what the CEOs just.

He said, I now feel under pressure when I take work off time off work, because the two thing people he said were really important. The people I serve in my department [00:16:00] mm-hmm so although the CEO, if you listen to, it sounded really good. It's the, the impression that gives of where the priorities for that business now lie and the person who's responsible for delivering that now feels under an awful lot of pressure.

Melissa: Absolutely. And that is where we need to really focus on. I'd say cross functionality or something of that nature. Rich Sheridan has a book called joy, Inc. And he talks about single towers of knowledge and how we should not have single towers of knowledge. Right. That, that some people talk about getting hit by a bus.

I hate that phrase, but like if someone won the lottery tomorrow or, you know, came into an inheritance tomorrow, We can't be in trouble, you know, that knowledge needs to live in multiple people. And I think that applies to simple things like vacation as well. And so if, if that one gentleman, you know, shared that the burden of that knowledge with [00:17:00] other people, then he's more likely to be able to go and take that vacation regardless of what the strategic goals are.

Scott: Thanks. I think. That comes back to what we're saying about the relationships as well. And that vulnerability say, we don't expect you to do it, but we, as an organization or as a leader, need to find ways of building that capacity and capability in our teams. 100%.

Melissa: I

Scott: love that. And so it's not just about, oh, I'm gonna train somebody to do a job.

It's say, okay, how can I train the team to perform well? And I say, if somebody goes sick which is something can. If somebody, I, I like your analogy of winning the lottery. Let's look at the positive side rather than getting hit by a bus, which is quite, quite a negative thing. I don't really wanna be hit by a bus winning the lottery.

Probably more likely, no, probably less likely to happen, but probably more a positive outcome, but the, the, the impact on the business still the same, somebody's leaving.

Melissa: Sure exactly. Yeah. I love, I use this phrase all the time because it gives you this visual of like this person sort of standing alone, you know, single tower of [00:18:00] knowledge with all of this inside of them.

That if it disappears, Like we're in trouble. And so, yeah, I love the idea of teaching the team. You know, my background is in the, the agile movement and in scrum and we talk a lot about cross functionality and that doesn't mean that every single person on the team does every job. There's a, a notion about T-shaped people where, you know, I might be a have deep knowledge in marketing.

And that's the kind of long part of my tea, but across the top, I am willing to pitch in and, and have sort of a, I don't a shallow level, not in a negative way, but you know, minimal level of knowledge about these other things that these other people on my team do. So, no, I probably couldn't do their job for like six months, but if they're gonna be gone for three days, I can cover.

You know, I can make sure that their customers are taken care of or their [00:19:00] whatever is, you know, getting taken care of. And so I, I, I love the idea of the team taking on the responsibility of reaching the goals. Not I take a piece of the goal. You take a piece of the goal, but I can't take vacation cuz my piece won't get done, et cetera.

Scott: And I think also having that tea concept. Cause I think it's an easy visual for people to actually comprehend. Okay. That's, that's the core thing I do, but these are the bits I can actually jump in. And if you find somebody else's busy and you are not quite so busy in some aspects, you can actually just go in and help that person say, right.

I can take some load off you at the minute, cuz there's stuff that I know about what you do. So I can actually quite easily move around and other people vice versa, get that reciprocation going within the team.

Melissa: There's such a, a really neat fluidity that comes from that. So. At scrum Alliance, we had fully cross-functional teams.

And by that, I mean, we actually didn't have individual departments. I had six teams [00:20:00] and each team consisted of marketing software development, education support. Like every team had those elements. and there was such a fluidity that, that happened within those teams, because exactly as you just described, they could sort of pitch in on these other pieces.

And my four favorite words are, how can I help? Right. So if I finish my work, instead of pulling in more work that I might not get done, I'm gonna turn to my teammates and say, okay, how can I help to, you know, reach this goal? And. There's an empathy that's created through that too, which was such a neat thing to see, you know, you had, again, marketers working with developers who never understood why it took so long for five lines of code to be written, and maybe they weren't writing code on their own, but maybe they were sitting pre [00:21:00] pandemic, you know, sitting with their teammate and going, oh, I see those five lines of code are like, 300 lines of logic in your brain.

I get that now. So yeah, there's a lot of empathy that was created, which created more fluidity in the team. So there's, there's a beauty in that for sure.

Scott: And that goes back to what that trusting mutually beneficial relationships. So empathy's a big part of that and that sort of the alignment to say, okay, I've got, I've done my bit.

How can I help other people? So what do you think a leader can do or somebody in the team or with that to actually. Generate that sort of culture where people will say do it willingly rather than being told. And instead of saying, oh, I'm busy, I'm not busy now. So I'll either take a chill, take a chill downtime, or I'll try and pull in more work.

I'll actually look at the people around me, my team, see how I can help them.

Melissa: So there are a couple things. One. I see this more in organizations these days, it makes me very happy, being much more outcome focused than output focused. So the goal is not to sit at your desk [00:22:00] for eight hours a day and pump out as many lines of code.

If you're in software or campaigns, if you're in marketing or support tickets, if you're in support, but rather. Here is the outcome that this team is trying to achieve. How do we work together to achieve that outcome and be less focused on, you know, sort of the micromanagement of the output. That's one way that you can start to create that fluidity that we're talking about in that trust.

Another is just simply the role modeling that we talked about earlier. You create trust in people when you do what you say you're going to do, or you do what you're asking them to do. So if you're asking them to, you know, not be afraid to take time off, this is my favorite joke. I always say leaders eat last, which is you know, like a phrase from books, but leaders take vacation first.[00:23:00]

And that might sound odd, but if you are taking vacation or you are leaving at 5:00 PM to go pick up your kids from school and go to their soccer game, then you are creating permission for the people in your company to do the same. It does not matter how many times you tell them, oh, I want you to take off at five and go to your soccer game.

If you were sitting there or you were on slack or whatever, you know, until 8:00 PM. There are people that are going to sit there and wait for you to leave because they want you to know, oh, I'm just as committed as the bosses.

Scott: And that's interesting. I think maybe COVID has changed some of the perceptions of that.

But again, I think even if you look at some of the CEOs or some organizations, how they've managed their staff in COVID some have gone down much more down the route of this is your job. Once you've got it done, how you do it is entirely up to you giving you the freedom. Other people have gone. You've got a phone.

You still gotta check in. You still gotta do that. And there's still, as you're still still doing that micromanagement [00:24:00] of the time, I'm paying you to work and I want you to and you might, they might ring and I've heard people say, I, I was scared. I, I take the phone to the, to in case my boss rings. Cuz if I, if you don't answer it, they're gonna think I'm not working.

I think that's definitely not a mutually beneficial relationship in any, in any imagination shape or.

Melissa: Not at all. And it's funny that you say that, like, I definitely have seen, like there's a divide and it feels like leaders and or organizations are going one way or the other. Like, there's not a lot of middle ground.

It's either. I trust my people to get the job done, which means you have to be present and understand the outcomes that you're looking for. That's how the job is considered done. Or, I mean, I am absolutely appalled at. The like, there is software that is monitoring people's key strokes. And not just like the time that they're at their computer, but like, are they on Twitter?

You know? And [00:25:00] just, I mean, we are adults, we are not in parent child relationships. And so it, it is all in my opinion, it's out of fear, you know, I can't see my employees. I can't make sure that they are not on Twitter. So I am going to install software on their machines that make sure that, you know, they're doing what they're supposed to be doing.

But to me, if you can't trust that in your people, then maybe you need to work on hiring, or maybe you just need to work on your own fear of things, because I am a big believer that PE people wake. And want to do the best that they can. Now we are all victims of, or products of our own system, the environment that we're in, lots of things play into that.

But I do believe that people have good intentions. [00:26:00] And so if you're not getting the, the results that you wanna see from your team, instead of saying like, I'm gonna monitor every, you know, thing that they type on their keyboard, maybe instead ask yourself what is the environment that they're working in and how can I help unleash them, you know, and, and approach it from that perspective.

I got a little ranty there. My friend

Scott: no, you're fine. It's that's, it's one me. Cause I spoke somebody from HR once and I said, do you pay for people's time or output? Mm. You what'd they say outburst why'd you manage their time? Boom, boom. Yes. And they were like, hang on. No, use it. You gotta be here.

Eight. You gotta be here at six. I, I like what we said about the CEOs as well. Cuz every interaction we have in my opinion either it, it creates an impression every single one. And if we say one thing, but our interactions that we have with people that there's, there's a disconnect in what we say and what we do, then people look at what we [00:27:00] do more than what we.

Oh 100%. Absolutely. And then that creates, and so I say every interaction either puts money in the trust balance. So imagine you've got a trust balance with people, everything you do, while it puts a deposit into that trust balance with that person, or takes a withdrawal from that. So if you've got CEOs that going home about eight o'clock, they're still really busy and everything is stressed and you say, people will say, they're going, oh, while he telling me to go home, but he's not home.

So I don't think it's okay to do. So I think it's important that we say what we say we are going to do, we deliver, and we demonstrate what we want other people to be like as well. So indeed, a big, there's gotta be, it's an phrase I don't particularly like, but I can't think of another word as a congruence between what we say and what we do.

Melissa: Absolutely. And there's a, a new term that I've been. I think that I coined this. I have not seen anyone else use it in this way, but organizational gas lighting, and this is. The term gas lighting is a psychological term. That basically means manipulation. [00:28:00] That causes people to think that they're crazy, that causes people to question their reality question, you know, what they've heard and what they've seen.

And I've seen this happen in organizations. When you say these are our core values. That's how you retain and recruit people, sorry. Recruit and retain people, right. Is these are our core values. Our culture is what makes us different. This is what differentiates us from other companies and why you should work for us.

So then I, as an employee, I'm like, oh yeah, that sounds, yeah. Those values resonate with me. Can you go work for that company, and then you find out that the behavior specifically of leaders, but maybe not one specific leader, maybe not, it's just the CEO, but rather like the executive team is not in alignment with those values.

And yet we keep espousing them. Like we keep saying, oh yeah, we really believe in. Empowerment. And we really believe in, [00:29:00] you know, being a, a people-centric organization. And then everything that I do is in contrast with that, then I, as the employee and I'm like, wait, am I like. Am I seeing things wrong? Am I, I don't understand because I, I feel like we're saying this, but you're behaving differently.

And I start to question my reality and I think one of the things we're learning is there is actually trauma from that. Like, you can, you can definitely have trauma from say being in a, you know, individual. Friendship or romantic relationship with someone who gaslights you, I believe without any scientific backing, just my own observation, that that same trauma can come from being in a workplace that is gaslighting you, that is telling you that we believe something and then behaving in a completely different way every time you turn around.

And so yeah, this is my new, the new [00:30:00] thing that I am I don't know. I think it's important. I think we're at, especially as the pandemic is not over, but starting to maybe see an end, companies are fighting for talent, right? Companies are fighting for getting good people. So they want to differentiate themselves.

They want to sell themselves. And it is so incredibly important that we are sure as leaders that what we are selling is actually true. And it's kind of scary to not be the, you know, sexy company whose values are X, Y, and Z. But if we sell that and we're not actually that, then we're creating. Trauma in the workplace and eventually it's gonna come out.

You know, eventually people are gonna recognize, oh, they say they're that, but they are not at all. I think we are much more likely to create mutually beneficial [00:31:00] relationships when we are real about what kind of company we actually are. And so it might not feel cool or sexy to say. We're a pretty stable company.

Things, you know, we don't like a lot of change. , you know, we want to, what has worked for us has worked for us and there are set of values you can create around that. That are true. You're still going to attract people who want that, who want stability or who want not a ping pong table kind of place, but rather, you know they, people like cubicles.

There are people that want that. And if we're real about it, then we're much more likely to attract the kind of people that would be attracted to who we are as a company. And there's all types of different companies. Right? So be real about who we are. So we have employees that don't feel like they were tricked into working for us.

Scott: I mean, that causes [00:32:00] massive again, it's by that dishonesty of what we say is not what we do. And at the beginning is what your brand, so you've got your brand, you sell to your customers, but you also got your brand in the marketplace when you're recruiting. And so it has to be, this is what we say, this is what happens.

And I, and there is it. So it's imagine, look, you're on Tinder as an organization, Tinder account as it swipe, you're gonna, you're gonna, you're gonna swipe. I don't understand left or right. I'm a bit too old for all. But whichever way you want them can is left or right. But what you want them to do is people who find what you do attractive come and working for you because they're the ones who are gonna be okay in that type of environment.

They're going to want to work in that type of environment. And so I, so being that open and transparent can seem risky.

Melissa: 100%, especially when whatever it is that you are is not maybe mainstream right now, you know? But again, there are people that are looking for that. You know, if you [00:33:00] go back to the Tinder example, you know, if you're like must love dogs.

There are people who want dogs. If you're like, must love AANAs. There are people who love a Guana too, you know? And so being honest about who you are as an org, which really means like sitting down as a leadership team and getting real about it and going all right, we have these five values, but based on our, you know, five year, 10 year plan, actually one of these values is not aligned with what we want for the future of this company.

And frankly, for, for those listening, This is probably one of the most understandable times for companies to do. Right post quarantine. The world has changed. People will understand if right now you come up with an entirely new set of core values because the world has changed and your strategy has changed.

And now you're [00:34:00] different as a company. And so I really am encouraging leaders like look at your values and be honest with yourself. It's like we talked about boundaries a little while ago. Be honest, like, can I uphold these values? Can I not just ask the people that work for me to uphold them, but can I uphold them?

Can I be the leader in X, Y, Z, whatever your core values are.

Scott: And if you haven't got them, there are ways cuz you have a set of values in your organization. Anyway, I think one of the best definitions of Culture I've I've seen, but I can't, I can't attribute, I can't remember who to attribute it is.

It's culture is defined by the worst behaviors management allow, cuz that's basically anything below that is unacceptable. Anything above that is acceptable. So it kind of creates the baseline. So whether it's bullying, whether it's supporting management, instead of listening to staff, whatever it is, the behaviors that are with her.

So there are values, I think, in a business that whether we say they exist or. They are there because it, it drives our [00:35:00] behaviors, the cultural type of thing I'd imagine, but we can actually ask staff and say, if the staff you want to keep and what do they find important about your business? What do they, what do they benefit?

What, what, what are they proud about what you do as an organization? I think if you ask them that sort of, those types of questions, what you're really doing is uncovering why they're proud to work for your organization. And then from that, you can uncover what's important to them. And I can imagine you would probably then be able to uncover a set of principles or values that your staff are pretty much bought into.

Anyway,

Melissa: I agree. Again, the only thing that I. Caution in that is that it would be really easy to come up with something that sounds really neat and that maybe your team can buy into, but if you can't or your number one team, you know, your leadership team can't, then you're, you're setting yourself up to Gaslight people.

And so I think those are awesome questions. [00:36:00] 100%. It's just, when you get down to that set of principles, You have to take a good, hard look at it and say, you know, is it something that we are willing to embody as a team?

Scott: And that's the question is, are we willing to do it exactly? Is

Melissa: it, it won't always be easy.

Especially, I mean, there are things that might be easier to do as a teammate in the company than it is as a CEO. right. Might be easier to be transparent. you know, when you're an individual contributor or a teammate in a team than when you're the CEO, it might be easier to be vulnerable. Maybe vulnerability is hard for everyone, but you know, so when you look at these principles or these values, you really have to say like, this is something that.

But not only are we willing to do, but are we enthusiastic to try to [00:37:00] do cuz also if you're faking it until you make it kind of a situation, people see that too.

Scott: Yeah. And I think sometimes there's another quote is about leadership. It's leading a like sailing a boat in smooth water disease is when it gets rough.

That's when you, you are challenged. And I think values are easy to follow when the company's making and being successful profit or whatever it is you're doing is when you get a dilemma. Yes, totally. And I think totally true. That's when the values that you are actually making key key decisions on become more apparent.

And are you brave enough to stick to the values that we've said, cuz that builds that trust that people have with you and say, no matter what happens, I know the senior management team, the CEO, or my boss act in this way with these, these are the sort of parameters they make their decisions on and I know what they are and I can trust that decision.

I might not like the outcome, but I know where the decisions come from and I can accept it. I think so. Absolutely. [00:38:00]

Melissa: Well, it's funny because if you think back to when there's a lot of research about how. How children respond in, you know, crisis situations and how, if they can look to the adult in their life and that person is consistent or they know what to, even if it's just interesting, I've been reading about this lately, like attachment theory and attachment styles.

And even if the person isn't treating them well, they will still gravitate to the person that they know what to expect from. They know what those boundaries are now. Don't want to, I'm not infantalizing adults in the workplace, but if that is how we as children, you know, kind of cope with situations, it makes sense that we would be more comfortable in the situation, not where the environment doesn't change, but where the person that we proceed as leaving us is [00:39:00] consistent.

So like you said, if, if I know that. This is a set of values that my leader operates from. No matter the situation, then I feel more comfortable and more secure. Maybe even in taking risks. right. And, and like navigating situations because they're not another variable that I have to deal with in a crisis situation.

So here's this, you know, big problem that we have and, oh, I also have to worry about whether or not my CEO's gonna lose their temper or, you know, behave, err, radically. So it makes sense logically that that would help us feel more

Scott: comfortable. And it's just, if those sets of values and behaviors are positive rather than negative, cause all know the leaders, oh, you can't go to, you're just gonna shout you down cuz then you're not gonna do anything or you're gonna work around them.

So if they're more positive and those values are, are good values. Absolutely. That's very true. Behaviors are positive then that's I, I can trust that. He's he's gonna listen to me. He's always gonna, or [00:40:00] she's gonna, he or she will listen to me, they'll do this. I'll do that. They may then they'll give an opinion, but at least I'll be listened to mm-hmm and I feel valued and you think, okay, cool.

I can, I can function with that because I know that my opinion's been listened to, rather than somebody saying don't take anything to him or her, cuz what they'll do is they'll just change it into their own ideas. And then absolutely that will create a separate sets of behavior. Yep from

Melissa: people. And then, and then the leader wonders.

Why , why can't I get any innovation or risk taking from my team? That's why my friend

Scott: that's why that's it always look in the mirror first? Isn't it? Cuz we are as leaders within a small business, as a small business owner with a group of five people or as a CEO of a multi-billion pound company, whatever it is, the, the, the impact of the leadership team or leaders on the.

The environment they have influence over, or they say that power dynamic mm-hmm cause you go to a company I'd imagine through your experience. And I I've now working where I used to work [00:41:00] big company, 50, 60,000 people. Nowhere felt the same. Mm-hmm mm-hmm it was overarching. You can, you know, kind of where it is, but you could walk into some departments that were, that were getting on.

Well, everyone was functioning, they got the, the management and leadership all went and you got other departments. Ooh is this company, oh, this feels totally different. Like there's a backs stab in and there's snipy stuff coming on. And I do think a lot of that down is to the quality of the, that that unit areas leader to actually lead in a more positive way.

Melissa: Absolutely and are like very aware of their own influence of the other influences on the team and the departments and are creating that space. For sure.

Scott: Space has come back. We've come back to space quite a lot. Haven't we come back to space. I did, we did a session yesterday where I was out and a lot space came in, came up in that conversation an awful lot, not official space.

Cause they were, they were a team coming back after being from COVID. Hadn't [00:42:00] seen two and a bit years. Some people have never actually been face to face with other team members. So it was an interesting team dynamic and getting that, and that's it. We just were trying to create a space for them in that day to just reconnect with each other.

But also with some outcomes, but space came up an awful lot conversation. So it's great to have this time. It's great to have this space. And the other thing that came up was. Yep. And I think that's important as a leader to create that mutually beneficial. When it goes back to what you said at the beginning, be vulnerable.

Yes. Be vulnerable because you don't know everything and you can't be good at everything. And I think accepting that and then vocalizing that to people and say, do you know what I'm new to this team? I just wanna get on the, you know, more than me help me out. Imagine if you, a new leader came in and did that, but, and I think we are changing perception of what leadership is cuz years ago it used to be I'm the leader.

I know I should know everything and I should solve everything and people just follow. And I think what you say, those two, those [00:43:00] two dynamics, I suppose, I think also accelerated by COVID is organizations still function like that. And then there's other organizations that are moving towards. Now let's have a lot more open outcome focused conversations about how we can work together and collaborate.

Melissa: Absolutely the best advice I was ever given. I always talk about that. The company that I grew up in I'm using air quotes here. I started working there when I was 20 years old and I worked there for 12 years and some of the best leadership. I've ever seen happened in that company. They were really ahead of their time, cuz this was 20 years ago.

But the best advice I was given by one of my favorite leaders in my lifetime was when I got my very first management job. And he said, I challenge you to go into this team and make zero decisions for 30 days. Just sit back, listen, observe and make zero [00:44:00] decisions for 30 days. And, and it was especially hard cuz I was actually part of the team first and then I got promoted to be their manager.

And so, you know, decisions that I had previously been making as just a part of the team, I had to like sit back and not, you know, make those decisions and, and take it to the. And say, okay, team, you know, where do you land with this? And it was really impactful because then I was paying much more attention to listening, observing, being in the moment than trying to prove myself, which is often what, you know, new managers, new leaders will do.

Oh, I have to prove that I'm worthy of this job. I have to prove that, you know, there's a reason that I'm the leader. And my sitting back and I was honest with the team about it. I said, I'm gonna sit back. And Larry has con has challenged me to sit back [00:45:00] for 30 days. And so that's what I'm gonna do. And it left so much more room and space.

Four conversations as a team that I learned from so that when I did maybe start stepping up a little bit more in, you know, I couldn't do that forever. There was so much more fluidity between them and I, and I took that with me to other jobs. Like I try to do that in when I'm like, you know, an employee and a leader in a company.

I try to do that much more. In that first 30 days and just sitting back and, and learning.

Scott: I think the important thing is yes, the sitting back and learning I think is really, is, is a good concept. A good idea. I think the bit that probably in just listened to your story, that res that I think to pick up on is at the beginning, there was a statement of intent.

Yes. Yes. I am now telling you what's gonna happen over the next 30 days. And I'm going to deliver on that goes back to those promises, cuz if you never make a, if you didn't make a decision in 30 days, never told them why you weren't making that's true. [00:46:00] I've got a manager who's not manager. So although it's a good concept.

I think that's statement of intent, cuz again, I think that puts, as you were talking about earlier about that context and the boundaries. Mm-hmm , we're providing that context. I'm a new manager. I've been challenged. I think it's important for me to sit back and not make decisions at the moment, but to learn.

So for the next 30 days, we're gonna make decisions together. I'm not on my own. I am not going to make a decision 30 days and then people go, okay. Yeah, that's true.

Melissa: I definitely set it up front and then it was interesting because I had been part of the team. originally, I was able to sit back from a different perspective now and go, oh, well, without saying it out loud, what would I have done if I had made this decision as a manager and hadn't been paying attention, you know, to what was going on in the team, but you're absolutely right.

The intent is super important. Otherwise it just looks like I'm doing nothing. [00:47:00]

Scott: Yes, gimme the money and I'm not taking any responsibility. It's fantastic. , I've seen managers do that as well, or gimme the money and I've got to cover everything there is. But I do believe that statement of intent is really important.

Cause I think it goes back to what you were saying as well. I'm going to give you these decisions as long as it meets these criteria, ABC or operates within this boundaries within these principles, I think again, that's a statement of intent in your making and, and the empowerment you're giving people.

And it's been real about what that is and being able to. Agree. I think we, as managers, do we actually go in and do that with our teams and say, this is my intent statement intent, or how we're gonna move forward in ABC or whatever it is. I think that'd be quite an interesting thing for people to do.

Absolutely. Cause that's the framework from which you can then, as you say, be realistic about it, deliver on it, be consistent with it, work within those values and it creates that space. That people then, cuz you're demonstrating vulnerability and explain why you're [00:48:00] doing stuff. And you're giving people the freedom to do what you said you were going to let them do.

Melissa: That brings me back to the boundary. I wanna just point out something really quick that, that you said. So when I was talking about, you know, only saying, okay team, whatever decision you make between one and three is fine with me. Also being able to say, I would eventually love to get us to a place where you could actually make decisions between one and eight, but here are the things that I think that you need and they're gonna take some time.

So that's where the context part comes in is, you know, yes, it's often about data or information, but sometimes it's also just about the experience of making decisions. So after we've made some decisions between one and three. Then we'll stretch it to one in five, you know, I'll give you more room, more flexibility in the decision making when you've had a little bit more experience making those types of decisions.

And so being like expressing that [00:49:00] intent. even about the boundaries and saying, I want the boundaries to be bigger, but we need to work together to give you what I have so that I can let that go, you know, without fear. And so I, yeah, I think that intent is kind of looped into that as well.

Scott: Yeah. So there we go.

Be open, be honest, ha be intent full and deliver on it consistently kind of there that's it. ISN.

Melissa: We've solved all of

Scott: leadership that we could just write that leadership program. So just give that to everybody, went away, just do that, do those things, and you can't go far wrong. There you go. not skills based.

It's more behavioral based. Isn't it? It's attitude and behavioral based. Mm-hmm and that's one of the things that's another one of our bug bears like leadership training. Oh, come, we're gonna teach you a difference between leadership and management, who really cares. Yes. Who, who I don't, my staff don't need to know, or my team don't need to know if I'm gonna be I'm being a leader or manager in what I'm doing.

I don't need to know. [00:50:00] I need to know my responsibilities and how I can then work with my team to get that. So I think some of the things we do in leadership development is questionable about the actual impact on helping people be more effective leaders. I can see that cause we don't call it management training anymore.

Anyway, do.

Melissa: No, definitely not. That is not in Vogue anymore. No,

Scott: it's all leadership training. So why do we spend the first day of it working out? What the difference is? Just, just go through what leadership is and do they really need to know? I don't know, but that's, that's another one of my bug bears about leadership training is cause I I've done training for many years and you go and you go to hotels and you pop your head as trainings.

When those you pop your head into a training room and see these things on there. So it's got leadership manage. It's got something, something called Bevin or something, or of Tuckman. Okay. There you go. So you are you're on day one of a leadership program. Yes. And that's pretty much any leadership program that you go to, you say you're on day one of a leadership program.

So every leader in the world needs these things and we deliver those things to everyone. [00:51:00]And really should we or say, what do you need to become a better. How can I help you get there?

Melissa: Yeah, I do love me Tuckman though. Must say, and, and Hackman as well about self-organization, but I hear

Scott: you well, no, I think they're useful.

They're useful to understand. And the, especially when you were talking about the team and when you were talking about that fluidity, then obviously the Tuckman models, that's that performing team. You need to know what, what sort of against that research. I think it's important to have that sort of understanding of where and why we're going places and what you are doing.

So the theory underpinning it I'm not sure the way it's delivered is great, but that's just a personal view. Just a personal view. Okay. Well, it was, it was a pleasure, I think was, I don't think I know it was, but I'm saying, I think we've been nearly an hour and we've just looked at my time. We have so it's been absolutely pleasure talking to you.

Thank you very much. And I think the thing that's come from me is that the gas lighting, cause I remember you talked about the last time before we came online. I think that's an interesting concept about thinking about the potential damage we are doing to people when we. These [00:52:00] values and actually deliver something completely different and cause it yes, cause that uncertainty and confusion in people mm-hmm and having the bravery be to, to be true to yourself about what you are as a leader, as a business.

And I think this is really important for small businesses growing. Yes. So if you're a small business and you are just starting to bring on staff into your team and start building and growth, it's really what company are you gonna. Because you might not be one of these, you might not be a, you say the traditional high risk startup.

Silicon valley type thing. You might be a relatively stable foundation, the market, all about relationships type business.

Melissa: And I promise you if that is who you are. There are so many people that are looking for that. Cause I work with a lot of those high risk startups and there are people in those teams that.

Struggle with the uncertainty of that. And then there are other people who embrace it, you know, it takes all types to make the world go [00:53:00] around, but we just have to be honest about who we are so that those people can find you and be happy with you and have a mutually beneficial relationship

Scott: because you are what you are delivering is what they need, and then they're gonna help you deliver what you.

Exactly. It's the thing is I, I did the other thing about a couple of weeks ago, and we were talking about startups and we were talking about scaling up that interest. So when you think about it and he breaks it down, it's just so simple. Hmm. So, and the same about how you are talking about the relationships.

It is so simple. Just have intent, be open, deliver on a bit, be honest with yourself about what you're willing to. Yes. Agreed. Sort of the, the building blocks are not that complicated. It just amazes me that it's just not delivered on a regular basis.

Melissa: Oh, cuz we're humans and humans are complex and our behavior is complex, but yes, if we can focus on those things, I think we'll get 10 steps ahead pretty quickly.

Scott: If we can simplify the complexity. Yes, [00:54:00] simplify. I, I, I know if this is why nor what I've heard, but I don't think humans are com complicated. I think we are complex. Yes. And I agree. And if we can simplify again and understanding that complexity, then moving forward's much easier. absolutely. So there we go.

Anyway, it was an absolute pleasure. Thank you very much for your time. And obviously links to your website and et cetera, et cetera will be in the, in the comments below the podcast. So thank you very much for your time. Yeah.

Melissa: Thank you. It was a joy. My favorite topics.