This episode I have three distinguished guests chatting about inclusivity and leadership.

My guests are Mark, Gary and Douglas - see below for more details about them

Mark Freed 

Mark Freed, a trailblazer in diversity and inclusion, co-founded E2W over two decades ago when he left a successful fintech career to become the type of husband and father that he always wanted to be.

Mark grew E2W to become a community with a reach of more than 15,000 women in Financial Services, aiding institutions with best-practice recruitment and retention of diverse talent.

Wishing to accelerate change, Men for Inclusion was born, and Mark shares his own lived experience as to why inclusion benefits all men, providing more opportunities and breaking free from outdated stereotypes.

Mark's distinctive voice is not just heard within this community. He’s a vocal advocate for workplace inclusivity, and recently provided evidence to the UK Government

Treasury Select Committee during their 'Sexism in the City' inquiry, and collaborates on initiatives like the Women in Finance Charter and the Diversity Project.

Mark brings a refreshing perspective to the industry, making him an engaging and

insightful commentator for journalists seeking a fresh take on diversity, allyship,

recruitment, and workplace culture.

Gary Ford

Gary Ford worked as a technologist within Financial Services for over 35 years. He was a Managing Director at JPMorgan where he co-founded their male allies programme for Women in Technology. The programme was rolled out to thousands of men globally and was ultimately launched across the whole firm.

For the last 10 years Gary has actively promoted gender equality. He’s been the male ally advisor to Women On The Wharf, and was a winner of the WeAreTheCity Rising Star award in the Men for Gender Balance category.

In 2020, he co-authored his first book,

'The Accidental Sexist: A Handbook for Men on Workplace Diversity and Inclusion’ (Rethink Press), showcasing his commitment to fostering inclusivity in workplaces.

Gary’s not just a co-founder; he's a driving force behind Men for Inclusion, bringing a wealth of experience and a passion for creating transformational culture change.

A compelling and knowledgeable industry commentator, Gary provides insights and data that will interest those fostering inclusive workplaces through DEI employee

engagement and inclusive leadership.

Douglas Lines

Douglas Lines is a digital first leader with a successful track record of growing and transforming businesses as well as innovating and commercialising new digital business models including successfully launching a global EdTech start-up amongst others. Douglas has been enabled by building a design thinking school in collaboration with Duke and Stanford Universities, appreciating the application of new technologies and having mastered business model innovation and cultural transformation practices.

A purpose led and values driven senior business leader, executive committee member with substantial global commercial experience, operating principally in financial services. Pedigree business acumen underpinned by successful delivery of large complex transactions & portfolio managed businesses from > £1m to £8bn. Highly articulate communicator, C-Suite negotiator & influencer; comfortable engaging with all stakeholders. Motivated mentor & people leader who removes barriers to delivery & celebrates team successes, empowering personal goal development & cohesive team service delivery.

Mark's LinkedIn Profile - https://www.linkedin.com/in/mark-freed-3a496a6/

Gary's LinedIn Profile - https://www.linkedin.com/in/garypford/

Douglas's LinkedIn Profile - https://www.linkedin.com/in/douglaslines/

Men for inclusion website - menforinclusion.com

IBEM website - https://ib-em.com/

Transcript

Scott: Hello and welcome to the latest edition of how might we and I've got with me , this week, we've got Douglas, Gary and Mark, and we are going to discussing how might we create inclusive leadership, . And that's not just related to work, but leadership in general and communities, ourselves, our families and with us.

So welcome, gentlemen. How are we all today?

Mark: Great.

Scott: All good. Doing

Mark: good, doing good.

Scott: I'll give you a hint. We're audio. So nodding doesn't help. We are on audio. So the people need to listen to us, but there we go. Okay. So welcome gentlemen. So if we'd like to go in around Robin, just a quick introduction about yourselves.

And then we will start the discussion. So as we've had a quick chat, we'll do it in the same order as before. So Gary, would you like to go first? Yeah, thanks, Scott. Gary Ford [00:01:00] former technologist within the financial services industry previously a managing director at JPMorgan Chase author of a book, The Accidental Sexist, and the co founder of Men for Inclusion with Mark.

Okay. Thank you very much. And a nice segue into you, Mark, if you want to introduce yourself, please.

Mark: Hi. Yeah. Mark Freed. So joint founder of Ment for Inclusion with Gary. A long career in financial technology and Turned to become a passionate supporter of gender equality 25 years ago when I left Credit Suisse to set up a firm called E2W which has been at the forefront of promoting gender equality in financial services for the last 25 years.

Scott: Thank you. Welcome. And Douglas again, welcome back.

Douglas: Thank you, Scott. Always great to be back with you. And my name is Douglas Lyons. I am a financial services executive of 25 years experience having been at the helm of a large corporate bank and commercial bank. And [00:02:00] absolutely a people leader. I think over that span of that career, I have witnessed and learned a tremendous amount from, from all the teams I've been privileged to work with and the leaders I've been privileged to work with.

I am an international thought leader on a number of areas, an author of a book on innovation. I'm a subject matter expert in business model innovation. But I'm equally a thought leader around executive leadership and the skills and capabilities of executive leadership into the future. And again, that very important topic that you mentioned of both inclusion and trust.

I am a founder of RBEM Group Limited based in London, and I currently reside in London.

Scott: Okay. Welcome back, Douglas. I'm sure we'll have another interesting and fruitful discussion. So, Gary, the title of your book, Accidental Sexist. Tell us a little bit about it.

Gary: Yeah, sure. I mean so I guess that my kind of, you know, starting point for this [00:03:00] is whilst I was at JPMorgan, I started getting involved in kind of gender equality and diversity inclusion initiatives by being asked to sponsor women in technology, which was a gender group that JP Morgan set up to attract and retain more women in technology, a sector that traditionally struggles with gender and arguably still does.

And so I certainly found myself in a room with about 50 women. I was often the only man, a deeply uncomfortable experience, if I'm honest. And we were trying to explore why it was that women didn't want to work in tech. So I began to hear kind of additional barriers that women were facing, which up until that point had been completely invisible to me.

And I thought of myself as a decent leader. I was a managing director there. I had around 250 or 300 people working for me. I thought I knew how to do it yet. There was things happening that I was frankly not seeing. So and I thought if I'm not seeing it, I'm sure there's plenty of other men that, you know, equally blind to some of these additional challenges.[00:04:00]

So we set up a male allies program alongside a guy called Stephen Koch. So when I left JP Morgan, I kind of thought this male allies idea could be interesting to other, other people. So. The Accidental Sexist was born out of that. I met a woman called Dr. Jill Armstrong, who was our third collaborator in the book, and I think, Douglas, you may have had the same experience.

Like the, the writing a book, you know, as a, you know, as, as a group is a really, really rewarding experience. So and Jill brought a lot of academic research to that book. She, she'd done a three year research program onto gender equality, diversity, inclusion at Cambridge University. So the book's about kind of three things.

The first is this fact that women face additional barriers in the workplace. And actually women of color face, face them even more. Which echoed, you know, the, the female experience when I was at J. P. Morgan. But Generally speaking, the fact is that most of these barriers are kind of quite unintentional, right?

Most, [00:05:00] most managers, leaders in the workplace go into work. In fact, most colleagues in the workplace go into work most days and they want to do the right thing. But because we are brought up to think in very deeply gendered ways, these, these, these mistakes often get in the way. And it's not unlike unconscious bias.

We just think accidental sexism is a better reframing because We can learn from mistakes, right? And we can, you know, we can look to improve and, you know, when we make them, which even now Mark and I often call each other out when we make these mistakes, because you, you, you just do, you have to kind of recognize that if the intention is good, then we, we need to help people learn from them.

So that's the first part is really just identifying the fact that there's extra barriers. The second thing is about what Steven and I learned from trying to roll out a male allies program. There weren't a lot of. Kind of, you know obvious references at the time. And then the final half of it is like, you know, how all the kind of things we picked up from running that [00:06:00] program, but about the things, the practical things you can do, which actually became practical things I think you can do in any kind of, you know, leadership, discipline, how you hire, how you how you promote, how you develop people how you create an environment.

in which all team members can, you know, work to the best of their ability. So that's, that's the summary. Sorry, that's quite a long summary. I apologize for that, Scott, but hopefully you get the gist.

Scott: The gist and the gist. I did indeed. Okay. So obviously you now work with Mark. So Mark, how did that come about from what Gary was doing and how you guys hooked up?

Mark: Yeah, I think as I said my I, I left my last proper job, if you like, 25 years ago and set up a firm. We very quickly became really busy. passionate about, about gender equality and supporting and helping women to succeed and flourish in their careers. But five years ago, as we were coming into lockdown, et cetera, I was getting increasingly frustrated at the pace of change.

It was clear that Actually, we weren't moving [00:07:00] forward very quickly as a financial services industry. There were in many instances, fewer women in top quartile earning roles in the sector in many organizations than there were seven, 15, 20 years ago. So despite all of the effort, all of the, the pressure from regulators and shareholders and all of the commitments from firms, we weren't making progress.

And I kind of, I suddenly saw it would actually quite often when we're talking about this, or more often than not, actually, if we were talking gender I'd be the only guy in the room. I'd be the only man in the room. If we were, if we were talking race and ethnicity, I'd be the only white guy. If we were talking LGBT, I'd be the only straight guy.

And I said, actually, where, where are all the men? Because we can't do this if only half the world are invited. We need everyone in the room. And then I started seeing, actually, backlash. You know, a lot of men, and hearing, you know, [00:08:00] the, you know, this had all gone too far, and it was against them, and etc.,

etc. And I, and I began to think, actually, why aren't they seeing all the benefits that I'm seeing? Why aren't they grasping the idea of freeing themselves from outdated male stereotypes? Why aren't they seeing the benefits of inclusive leadership? Why aren't they seeing the benefits of diverse workplaces?

Why aren't they, and haven't they, answered the question, what's in it for me? And so with that in mind actually sort of met Gary quite quite by accident, actually. I did a male allies search on LinkedIn and he, he came up, he'd won an award. He'd written a book. I thought this is somebody we need to get to know.

And Interestingly, Gary and I although we, we, we might look the same, talk the same, et cetera we're very different characters we're very different people and working together, we've been able to bring our, our combined strengths to, [00:09:00] to the fore. Which I think is another thinking about, you know, we need to think about diverse thoughts.

And it's not always because you're a different gender or you come from a different background. Sometimes actually people are just different. And let's make sure everyone gets heard.

Scott: Okay, Doug, and this comes back to say that there's, there's, we've been talking before online, the journey you've come through in a sort of broader aspect of it, although what Mark just said about getting everyone's voice heard is obviously living in South Africa and going through the apartheid and then the changes after apartheid, a journey for more inclusivity rather than exclusivity.

Douglas: No, thanks, Scott. And you, you're right. You know, I was, I was a teenager. I was at school when, you know, the apartheid regime was in place and we, you know, I lived through that. And then I actually, you know, once apartheid was abolished with, you know, which was absolutely the right thing for the country, you know, I lived through a transformation of what was in essence, a rainbow nation.

You know, I I [00:10:00] remember, you know, this is a country steeped in, you know, segregation. Yeah. Yeah. And in the 1994 world cup, rugby world cup final, when we won it everybody in that country, it was amazing that evening, every single person, no matter what color you were, you were welcome in anybody's home for a drink, no matter who you were, no matter what color you were.

So. You know, when I, when Nelson Mandela walked out to the field and wore the Springbok jersey, he united a nation in one single moment. And I think, you know, I love using sport as an analogy. I think Sierra Coliseum is our current you know, captain of the Springboks has the exact same philosophy. And so you know, that, that taught me so much around just the role that we as leaders have in our communities and our families, in the businesses that we are privileged to lead and or influence.

That we can make a real difference. And, and so for me you know, it was at the time you don't realize it because you're young and you're going through your career, it's only when you get older and you get wiser that you start to connect the dots of [00:11:00] prolific these moments in your life were in terms of living through these.

And, you know, I think Gary mentioned when you author a book. It's, it's a, it's a true privilege because you get to work with a lot of, you know, folks. And I was privileged to work with 65 folks, most of them smarter than me, quite frankly. But for me, that was one of the greatest things was to listen to such divergent views of, of subject matter experts around the world.

And for all of us to challenge and debate and what we learned from each other was, was amazing. So this whole Journey of authoring a book on innovation, the number one thing that causes a lack of innovation in our world that we live in is what we call dominant industry logic. And what's the number one thing to challenge dominant industry logic is to get diverse views and perspectives.

And and so the world that we're moving into swiftly requires us as a, as a, as a, as a need to bring in. The voices of everybody and to participate because [00:12:00] that's where the, the creativity lies. And, and it's, it's a, you know, having been through a number of diversity programs and inclusion programs, the greatest innovations I've ever been privileged to be part of has been when we have brought in.

You know, the diverse voices of, of of, of, and diversity has got multiple lenses. But that to me has been an amazing journey. One, which holds me to the center of, I think what I stand for, what I believe in and the impact that we can have on others is, is substantial. We don't even realize it half the time.

Scott: I dunno, but the, the how valid this stat is. But I read somewhere, I can't remember, it was a article I was reading, but as a leader, you have more impact on somebody's mental health than the physician

sometimes. If you think about that and then say what, what responsibilities that give us as in leadership roles about realizing that the impact we have.[00:13:00]

Douglas: I can actually bring that to life in a, in a, in a real life example, Scott of staff member that I had, and this was a female lady of color and And she was in my world and I was responsible for her and clearly we had some challenges with her performance and my team came to me and I said, listen, they've had the performance reviews and they're looking to exit her and I said, well, hang on a minute before we go that route, have you taken the time to understand what the challenges this person is facing in their personal life?

And And I said, no, no, that's not our responsibility. I said, well, I actually think it is. You need to understand the whole person. And so I sent my team away and to go and understand that world that this person is living in. And when we did, We started to appreciate the harshness of the environment that she was going home to every single day.

And we got professional counselors to help her to, to, to manage that environment better. And it was the most amazing outcome to see the smile on her face when we helped her in her life. [00:14:00] That she could blossom and she be, she went from being a bottom perceived bottom performer to being a top performer.

And it was just a one degree move that you can make positive in your life for that person. And so that, you know, it reminds me of an analogy that says in life, we must light the flame in one's heart, not under your butt. And I think when you can do that, you can see the amazingness of every single individual.

And and, and, you know, you learn a tremendous amount from these instances and experiences in your life.

Mark: Douglas, I think you bring up a really good point there. And I think one of, one of my fears with when, when we talk about diversity is we immediately start putting people in boxes. You know, we start off by putting men in one box and women in another, and then, you know, then we, we.

We go to socioeconomic, we go to race, we go to sexuality, disability, and I think some of those are useful to a point, but [00:15:00] actually, at the end of the day, as leaders, we need to take the time to understand. everybody as individuals, as individual people. And I think one of the challenges as a leader is you've got this thing called affinity bias and we see it all the time.

As we ask leaders that we're working with, you know, how much of your social time are you distributing evenly? Yeah. Are you, you know, those formal social events, are they always One type of event at one type of time of the day, those informal ones, but also, you know, are there people, are there people in your team who you rarely talk to who you don't go into a month up to on a Monday morning and, and, and ask them how they are, or start talking about the football.

Who do you lunch with? Who do you have those water cooler moments with? Have you, are you spreading [00:16:00] your, your social capital evenly across your team to ensure that you, you really know everybody and as individuals not only their strengths, their weaknesses, the barriers, the challenges that they may be facing because they're not all like you and you can't read it from a diversity script.

Really, really interesting how people then start to think about getting to know people as individuals in their team.

Douglas: I think, Mark, I think you raised, sorry, Gary. It

Gary: wasn't me, you cut a crack on Douglas.

Douglas: I'll be I have to warn you guys, I'm like a Kenwood chef because I'm super, I can't stop when I get in a passionate topic like this, but I'll be, I'll try to be concise.

But, you know, I think there's, it comes back to something we were chatting about earlier around self awareness and. You know, in the life that we live now with the technology that we have around us, you know, how often do [00:17:00] we reflect on the fact when somebody walks past us and greets us and we on our our phones and we typing and whatsapping or whatever, and we just, we just acknowledge and we move on and you don't realize that was a missed opportunity just to have that social capital that you could build for 30 seconds.

And we miss those opportunities all the time because we're on this frenetic treadmill of life. And And I think it's the ability to slow down, to speed up is an art. Yeah. Lots

Scott: of people jumping in, so don't

get

Scott: me really

interested. Come

Gary: on! Yeah,

come on!

Scott: Go for it. Gary, you go first. Go

Gary: on. I was just going to say, we had a really interesting story from someone who attended one of our workshops last week.

And she talked about one of the things she started doing On a really regular basis of making sure that when she comes into the office, she says, good morning to everyone's access in the office. It sounds so basic, right? But she said, you know, most people just come in, they kind of [00:18:00] straight to the same desk.

And obviously, this was a place where they had a hot desk in, but still, everyone goes to the same desk and sits next to the same person every single day. And she said, by the simple act of a, Making sure I was saying good morning to lots of people or everyone that was there in the office and B, not sitting at the same desk every day, which meant that I had a whole opportunity to interact with someone who I hadn't ordinarily kind of spent time getting to know, was just such a positive difference.

And it's a positive difference to her as an individual. She's just, I felt so much better. As, as an individual, but secondly, the level of response I was getting from my colleagues was just absolutely, you know, inspiring for her, right? And it's, it's a very small, simple thing. But that's what being inclusive is.

It's acknowledging that people, you know, people are there, right? The number of people that, the number of managers and leaders who simply ignore their people when they come into work. I mean, it's, it's, it's astonishing to me. [00:19:00]

Scott: There's an interesting book, I think, well, I found it interesting called How Full Is Your Bucket?

Which was written, I'm not going to say the right guy's name because I always get it wrong. I think it's Tim Roth or Tim Rath. Co authored it, he's from Gallup. And he says, and then they talked about the, the requirement for us as people to have like social inclusion or social, social connections is a really huge part of us because we're social by nature as human beings.

We are social by nature, so creating those socials but every inter, we have thousands of interactions a day, micro interactions with people. And I think being aware of those micro interactions and sort of the impression that leaves. of us in other people, then reflect on their reput our reputation with them, which will then reflect on how they will respond to us.

So as an example, like Doug was saying, people on the phone and you say, good morning, they just look up, you can either say, well, that's ignorant or that person's that. Now I've labelled that person as ignorant, which is going to have an impact on how I speak to them again. So very, very few, if any of our interactions are [00:20:00] neutral, very few.

And I do think it's important that we, In leadership roles or even just outside is have that consistency of and that awareness of how we respond to people, how we are in situations and because that builds our reputation. One of the coaching questions asked me is if I went into your team and asked them to describe you, what three words would you like them to use?

And then what are you doing every day to support that? And it's just as you said, Gary, sometimes just simple things, just saying hello to people makes a massive difference. Makes a huge and subtle changes we can make

Gary: and just saying thank you a bit more to people and, and, and, and I think another sort of tip we heard from someone else and I really love this one, not just saying thank you for people for their hard work, like lots of leaders talk about, you know, they do a big thank you to their team and thanks for everyone's working so hard and actually flipping it and saying thanking people for [00:21:00] their expertise.

Not just thanking them for sort of turning up and sort of working long hours for whatever you're trying to achieve. Thanking them for the value that they bring to the organization. I just thought that was such a huge tip. Thank you for providing expertise. As opposed to thank you for simply working hard, again, really tiny, small thing, but can make such a difference as you say.

Scott: I think it goes back to something you said before, it's great having these tips and these tools. And I'll give you an example, we were doing some training once and somebody said, it's really good to like appreciate your staff and you've got to build a system. Think about how you can, and this guy then went back and said, right.

I'm creating thank you Thursday. So every Thursday, I thank my staff. I said, you've just completely blown. It's all we said. They're a process of saying thank you to people. Please do it more often. So,

Mark: so, so Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Friday, you're an absolute shit. Yeah. I love you [00:22:00] Thursday. And they just see all the stuff new.

Scott: It's Thursday. I'm going to get my thank you Thursday email. The actual impact of that behavioral change is minimum because there's no authenticity behind it. It's not authentic. It's not genuine. It's not, it's not steeped in anything of somebody actually hearing to care because they've systemized systemize it.

It loses its authenticity, loses impact.

There you go. I could do that.

Scott: Yeah, I probably could this. It goes back to your thank you as well. So I was talking to somebody, if you walk into a coffee shop and a barista makes you coffee, what do you say? Say thank you. Yeah. And then managers say, well, I don't thank my staff because they're getting paid for it.

I said, well, the barista is getting paid to make sure.

Mark: Yeah.

Scott: And you just thank this barista. You thank somebody holds a door open. You, we do generally thank lots. I said, why don't we just say thank you at work and doesn't have to be a big thing and a big, that is just that. Civility, isn't it? Civility, I think, sometimes has come out of work.

I was interested in a book called The [00:23:00] Trust Factor. And that's how we build trust. And a guy called Paul Zak done research like the impact of trust on the workplace and stuff. And he, he does a lot around the hormones it creates and sort of oxytonian and, and all that sort of stuff. And now he calls that like basically the trust hormone that we have.

And it could, it builds that connection as you were talking about, which is really important. And he said, but position of leadership can create. Higher levels of testosterone in people naturally, which then can create counterbalance. The tonin. Yeah. Yeah. Men and women.

Mark: Yeah. Do you think though, it's, it, it's, it, it it, it needs to, it needs to be further than just sort of a Hello and a thank you.

A hello is is the start you know. Hello, how are you? No, how are you? Really? Yeah. No. How was your weekend? Really? Thank you for doing that. How did you do it? What, what, what, what challenges did you get? How, you know, what was good about it? What I think [00:24:00] is, is otherwise we it's, it's just that American have a nice day missing you already.

Scott: Yeah,

Mark: yeah,

Scott: yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I do. I mean, I, I likely put in there is the word, the word really when delivered in a curious tone and authentically. Adds a lot of power to a very simple sentence.

Mark: Yeah, yeah.

Scott: If you said to somebody, how are you? We don't actually expect them to say, I'm having a crap day.

You don't want them to say that because it's just a cult, it's a cultural norm, social acceptable. Hello. Yeah. You said to somebody and you're walking down, down the, in the corridor at work or whatever, and you actually stopped as well. And I think that's a good indication, stop when you talk, don't have it on route because it means now focusing on you because you're more, you're the focus of my attention.

And so how are you really, that people say management say, I've got no time, said you've got five seconds.

Yeah,

Scott: you have five seconds because if that person just says I'm having a crap day now and [00:25:00]it goes back to what you're saying Douglas about the other, the we don't, I think the days when I remember I was at work and I said to somebody I'm having trouble because I think it was my daughter's not very well, something was going on and the manager said, I employ you, not your family.

And I mean, that was like in the 80s and stuff. So they're very, the two, the two were never seen as the same. And I still don't like the concept of work life balance. I heard the phrase work life integration, which I think is much, much better. I have life and work as part of it rather than seeing it as competing.

So I do think we've got that duty of care to people who are with us and say, do you know what, this person's having a crap day. What can we do to make it better? How can we support this person through whatever it is they're going through? But we can't do that. As you said at the beginning, unless we really start to know people.

Yeah. And another phrase I ask when I talk about influencing, and it goes a little bit deeper from when you say, what's in it for me, why would that person want to? If we can't answer that, we're struggling. But the only way to [00:26:00] answer that is to really try to understand motives and the situation somebody's in.

So if we can answer the question or try to answer the question ourselves, why would that person want to do what I would like them to do? Then we start shifting from our perception to theirs. You start trying to understand them at a much deeper level.

Douglas: I think Scott, the other thing that we, you know, is in our various capacities in life, whether it's personal or professional, is this, you know, environment of psychological safety and that people feel safe that they can have an authentic conversation with you, that you

are

Douglas: open to authentic conversation, that you will listen carefully, that you will pause and stop.

And And I think, you know, we don't know all the, the power of the subconscious, but we know the subconscious is powerful and people can sense that they can sense is this, is my boss being authentic or is he, as Mark said, just doing the good old American, you know, coffee and coffee rounds, you know, and, [00:27:00] and people can sense that they, they, they, they know that intuitively and hence they will be guarded if if they sense that.

So it's, you know, the art of also having sincerity, authenticity. Meaning having a meaningful conversation that has purpose to it. And actually, you know, when we talk about trust, trust is the ability to listen carefully. And, and I think I sit in a lot of meetings and, you know, people like to talk over each other and you just sit there and listen and you actually think, well, what are we actually really achieving here?

And it's that ability to listen deeply. To, to each other's vantage points and that's goes and whether it's you know, meeting somebody in the street for the first time and having an engagement with him or actually you know, having a formal meeting, probably one of the most humble. You know, experiences of my life was the day I left off to 20 years.

And I as Mark said, I did pride myself in going around every morning. And greeting and having a conversation with each and every one of my staff, [00:28:00] but my most junior staff member. Came to me knowing that I was leaving the organization and he opened up and he told me about his life and he told me about how on weekends, he would see homeless people.

He would care for them. He would take them to doctors. He would pay for their doctors. He would pay for groceries. He would buy them clothes. And he was the quietest chap. You know, I would never have ever assumed that that often as a character. So for someone who was the most junior staff member, I probably respected him the most because of.

What he stood for in his life and how he helped others and my only reflection was, you know, why did it take me, what environment did I create that he felt that he could only tell me that after being together for so long, knowing that I was leaving. And that was something that, you know, I also took a massive learning out of but it, you know, we must never underestimate.

The power of each human being, they have, we all have different stories. We all have different impacts in our life and it's the ability to, [00:29:00] to, to, to ask deeply refined questions and to listen carefully. That's when you build trust. That's when you build authenticity. That's when you can make a change in someone's life.

And I've certainly you know, experienced that as well. You know, I think there's a great book called half time, which talks about, you know, in the first half of our life, we look for success. In the second half of our life, we look for significance. I've come up with a third one that says we come up with a third realm of stewardship of saying, how do we pass on our knowledge, experience and wisdom to the next generation?

And I think that's also something that's, that's really powerful, the ability to pause and reflect. Is a really powerful tool that we don't use enough of in our lives.

Mark: Douglas, and, and, well, everybody, I'm just wondering, and thinking back over the last half an hour or so that we've, we've recorded here.

It's all very nice. It's all, it's all very empathetic, and let's be nice people, and, and, and what have you. [00:30:00] But if, if somebody was, who was perhaps more traditional in their views, or maybe have felt that diversity and inclusion hasn't been good for them, what would you do? as men and felt that they were now just being discriminated against and the old fashioned traditional ways were, were the best.

How do we appeal to them? How do we, how do we change their minds? How do we change their views? How do we get them on side?

Douglas: Mark, it's a great question and it's there's no easy answer, but I think just from some of my experiences, having been in fairly deep immersion emotional intelligence training with executive teams, both as a leader and as well as a participant what I've really experienced, and it's quite interesting, it's quite consistent actually, is that your typical alpha male leader, very strong, you know leader, Tends to be when, when you look at an emotionally contained environment and [00:31:00] you start looking at the, you know, this person sharing their life story, they hold some significant vulnerabilities, but they've been brought up to realize, to believe that they can't share these vulnerabilities.

And so you're certainly not going to achieve that in a corridor conversation or coffee session, but I think it's to appreciate that we are all vulnerable and that we are make our makeup is designed by who we are and the experiences around us, our upbringing, whatever it may be a bad event, a good event to me.

And it's to, you know, To start to have conversations that are meaningful with each other that allows us to start understanding, you know, if we can just make a one degree move positively in someone's mindset today, then hopefully that one degree manifests some 10 degrees in, in, in three months time.

So it's, it's, there's no short answer for it, but I think it's about coming back to this whole authentic, meaningful. purposeful conversations that we can have with each other. We, we look at, we look at this through a, it's a great [00:32:00] lens. We look at it through a slightly different lens as well. And we point out historically how women have freed themselves over the last 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, even a hundred years freed themselves from complying with outdated female stereotypes.

Mark: And. They're no longer tied to the kitchen sink by their apron strings, if you like. And through cutting those, through throwing off those old fashioned stereotypes, they've given themselves a whole bunch of amazing choices and opportunities, such different outcomes from their mothers and their grandmothers.

And, and, you know, they're now in, in, in. Their lives are much richer, much more opportunity, much better outcomes for them than the men. As men, have we made as much progress? [00:33:00] You know, is my life very much different from my father's? A little bit, you know, a little bit in the fact that I was allowed to go into, I'm 60, I was allowed to, when my children were born 30 years ago, I was at least allowed into the, the, the, the maternity ward.

My father wasn't allowed in the hospital, and my son is going to get some paternity leave. That, that's small progress. And, and I think a lot of, a lot of those alpha male leaders that you're talking about are actually still living and constrained by living in that 1950s, 1960s, 1970s worlds. You know, guys, get rid of it.

Take the straight jacket off. Let, let's, let, let's, let's. Decide what, you know, what the definition of a man or let's throw that definition away and recognize that, you know, as human beings, we've got a lot more choice and opportunity. To be the real [00:34:00] type of people we want to be, and that changes mindsets.

So,

Scott: no, it's okay. I think, again, the question goes back to what Doug said, one of the key ways of changing somebody's mindset is to ask a really deep, powerful question. Then it becomes a self awareness journey. And one of the things I think about the trust model I've created right at the center of it is purpose.

And it's like, not, it's just like, what's the person you want to be? And what's, what's the things you want to achieve? And then how do you build trust around that to deliver that? And I think that's an important question. We don't ask ourselves very much at all is what's the legacy I would like to leave.

What would I like to be known for? And I think one of the questions I'll ask is if you were to win an award, what would it be for and who would nominate you? So that really helps. Yeah. About who do I want to serve? I think if we can start changing that with things about leaders, managing and doing stuff and more like serving, it kind of helps shift how we then perceive what [00:35:00] our role is, and then might shift about how we actually deliver that new definition of success or however we define success is what we tend to work towards.

So if we can help. Try to redefine what success looks like in leadership roles and whatever else it is. And then we can define that and we can look at the language we use around it and levels of awareness and language and our action. We can consistently, and I think the key word here is consistency, because when you do something consistency, you build trust in that what you're doing.

Inconsistency builds mistrust because we don't, we don't know what's coming. We don't know what's driving it. We don't know. We start to question the motives of somebody's actions. Yeah, I think dangerous. Yeah. Yeah. And Scott, do you think I mean, I see a lot of men now who perhaps retiring from their careers and looking back on them and they're thinking, well, yeah, I was, I was successful, but Could have I been more successful?

Mark: Did I leave carnage [00:36:00] behind me? Did I, did I really treat everybody fairly and equally? And did I get the best out of everybody? But also looking back at maybe the, I'm not going to use the word carnage, but actually the very different personal life they could have had, you know do they, by dedicating so much Mindset to career.

Have they really got the relationship with their children, with their wives that they would have really liked? Yeah. You know, maybe they put their kids through, through private school and they all went to, to a great university, but the fact that they never called their dad and haven't got a relationship with them is really important.

Scott: And I do. I think it's about question. What we see is success, isn't it? It's what we define as a success. Do we measure it by materialistic things? What I can provide to people. Yeah. Like family and friends and stuff, or is it measure it by what I can help people achieve serve people. So if we can just start working around some of those questions [00:37:00] and then asking people to go on that journey, because you can never make anybody do anything.

So it's all about trying to correct us. That's what you're saying about psychological safety. And there's a book called the four stages of psychological safety. I can't remember who wrote it, so I do apologize to the author. But the stage one is inclusion, because if we don't include it, then we don't feel safe.

It's a question. We don't see it was safe to challenge. We don't see it. So there's like the inclusion. There's something there's four stages and last one is the stage of challenge. But we need to feel safe to do that. And so huge. I think some ways also, if you want somebody, if you would like somebody to change, instead of just saying, Oh, it's about mindset, maybe provides a set of basic skills, come back to what you were saying at the beginning.

That you think, well, this is going to have a really positive impact on this person quite short term, quite quickly. So they can taste the fruit of success. Then once they know that there's a difference and actually these things I didn't think were working, if I just apply this one, two, three things, I can actually start to really quickly [00:38:00] feel a difference and an improvement.

Then you've got a level of momentum and they can actually feel what's in it for me. Why would I want to? Cause actually I quite like that. So I want more of it and why does it work? So I think providing really simple tools and maybe not worry too much about the theory behind it and why we should be doing it, but say, just do this and see what happens.

Then things start changing and then you can, they might say, well, why is it changing? And then you can do maybe the learning on top, because it's against the experience, understanding, and then it can create a new experience. So maybe just flipping it around a little bit.

Gary: I think there's another element to that, Scott, which is interesting going way back to something you said probably 10, 15 minutes ago now, which is, you know, when you suggest to a leader that they need to spend more time with their team saying, well, I don't have time to do that.

Right. And, you know time is a precious commodity. So therefore, how leaders prioritize time is a really interesting question, isn't it? And [00:39:00] frankly, I think if you and I think, you know, Doug, you were making the same point. If you look at the current landscape for business, it's an incredibly complex one, and one where you do need a lot of very diverse voices to enable us to solve some really tricky, complex problems.

And therefore, those diverse voices will not step forward if you haven't created the environment where they'd be listened to. So, I think for a leader, this is You know, you take it all of the personal cake. This is just basic business sense to me. Right? We have to find ways which will allow people to kind of have a voice to want to be part of finding solutions for some very complex problems.

And if we're not doing that, we're failing as leaders. You know, every time someone loses leaves our company, that's 100, 000 worth of recruitment fees. We've probably got to pay. It's also a massive, you know, loss of [00:40:00] investment that we've made into that. This is basic business sense in my eyes. So therefore, leaders need to be prioritizing, using their time to understand the people that they do have within their organization.

And to your point, You don't need to have the grand theory behind it. It just strikes me that there's some basic business sense around investing your time in trying to get to know those people. And actually, a lot of this is experimentation. I mean, you know, even what we do at Men for Inclusion, the type of workshops we run, I think there's a level of experimentation with it.

I can't promise you hand on heart if you do this thing, you know, your business profits are going to go up. I can't make that direct. Connection. But I do say, look, if you start working with people in this slightly different way, I think you'll begin to see through some very practical examples, the type of response you begin to get from the people in your team, right?

And maybe it doesn't translate to the bottom line immediately, but over [00:41:00] time, You know, all the research will show you that happier, more engaged people in your, in your business will translate into better products, happier customers, you know, better returns, happier shareholders, happier, you know audit committees, the whole nine yards, but it does require a series of very small repeated interventions.

Scott: And I think it's partly, I mean, I come from an Ops background and quite often Ops are pressurized. It's about delivering this today. This is the target you've got to get this done, this done, this done. And so the managers are driven. And even the whole rhetoric is around quotas, daily, weekly, monthly quotas.

So as organizations, you're putting a lot of pressure on your managers to say, yeah, it's great. I've had this, this is a thing that's been going on for years because you can talk about the ability to have coaching style conversations. I just don't have time. It's an investment. It's an investment of time that will repay his dividends.

But then we're talking about trying to influence [00:42:00] people's behavior. I think there's three things to consider. One is the immediacy of the outcome. Two, is it positive or negative? Three, is it definite or possible? So if we're looking at a possible negative, positive outcome, that's not very immediate, batting on very low influencing.

wicket. It's a quite sticky wicket to back it on. So it's trying to find ways of having that conversation. It's not trying to get people to give up smoking. There's a pretty negative outcome, but it's a long time in the future. It's not definite. So when you've got those three things, that sort of quota, you're saying, so again, how do we try to change the rhetoric around it to say, how can we get a more immediate response, positive response?

And we know it's not because we're talking about mindship. We're talking about attitude and we're talking about this. And then how's it going to be positive for them? So why would they want to? So I think sometimes just [00:43:00] changing that we can actually start helping people perceive because people do things for two reasons they want to achieve or avoid.

So we want to try and influence people we need to try and work out what is it they're trying to achieve or what they're trying to avoid and how can what we're asking them to do help deliver or avoid.

Douglas: Scott, I think maybe, you know I love connecting the dots from various lenses. And so there's a couple of things percolating right now.

One of them was around, you know, where do we look at professional executive teams, you know, where do they spend their time and You know, when we authored the book with 65 amazing people around the world on innovation, we really defined it on three horizon thinking. Horizon one says we run the core business.

Horizon two says we transform the core business and horizon three says we innovate brand new businesses. And it was actually McKinsey's that did a global survey and said actually 86 percent of executive teams focus solely on run the business. So we have a fundamental problem around transformation and innovation.[00:44:00]

Globally, 14 percent of executive teams are managing that portfolio on that basis. And, and so it comes, you know, what reflects in my mind was this thing of time and time. The other side of that paradox is what you were mentioning. Those three items is called, I sum them up. I call them instant gratification.

So what I mean by that, if I've got an app, that's a new app, and if it doesn't give me some instant gratification, it goes off my phone quite quickly. And we have been, technology is changing the way, the speed at which we have to work, the pressures on us, but as well as our own mindsets around gratification and, you know, this desire.

And I always say to people, the greatest thing we're fighting for right now, Is actually people's time, whether we look at marketing and how marketing agencies are evolving, et cetera, et cetera, we are trying to get into people's time and their mind to engage. And it comes back to this this busyness of running and we know executive teams.

Why do executive [00:45:00] teams run the core business only? Well, the incentive is 12 months cycle. You know, incentivize. So that's what they do. And do they have time to take what is a perceived underperformer, invest in them, turn them around? You know, not all of them do that, you know, so for me, it's, You, the more you can appreciate the investment in people, profitability is the outcome of that.

Many years ago, I was tasked with turning around a program which spanned 22, million of our customers, and it was failing horribly, it was, it was a collaboration program and a big financial services organization across the various silos, which you can imagine that size is, is, is siloed. We, it was never about me.

It was about, you know, empowering the team and actually saying, we're going to stop everything we do. And we're going to totally do this differently and empower a team and allow them to co create with the people on the ground. And it took us four years, but everything we did, we focused [00:46:00] on our people. We focused on giving them a supportive coaching environment, having coaches or coaches in the localized offices.

And most importantly, empowering them to make decisions on the ground. And the outcome of that was actually by pure default. The turnover went from 14 billion to 18 billion. And it wasn't anything special that we did. We just empower them. And so the model, this hierarchical pyramid leadership model is actually needs to be inverted in that it is actually we are there as leaders, whether it be in our community, our families or business.

We are there to serve. Others and to unlock the greatness in them. And you know, one of the things I'm, I'm super passionate about is, is is, is leadership development. And I designed it with a couple of us. We, we really scour the web in terms of looking to say, you know, what do we think the future skills and attributes of a, of an executive team on?

And there wasn't anything that was was that resonated with us. So we developed one [00:47:00] and we sent it to 65 CEOs and chairman's around the world for commentary. And we galvanized a set of patterns. Very detailed patterns in that, that we felt with all the input that was co created, what was really pleasing was that this futuristic set of patterns, at least 50 percent of it was around people.

And the influence that you have on people and these were very detailed patterns. And so for me, I think, you know, that is the, that's the blueprint. That's the blueprint on our personal lives, you know as well as our professional lives and the impact that you can have on others. But again, I think what happens is that we all get so busy.

We tend to let this by the wayside and we forget about it. There's a wonderful book that's I use when, when I've been blessed to coach some executives is called Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning. And it's a true story of a, a Austrian psychologist who was Jewish at the time of World War II, and he had the choice of either going to America, [00:48:00] To become very successful or to go and join his grandparents in, in Auschwitz and the concentration camp, and he chose to go to Auschwitz and it was horrific as, as you can imagine.

And he wrote this book in memory of his grandparents, but also for the learnings that came out of it. And the key learning that came out of it was you can take everything away from me. You can take my clothes. You can take my right to food. You can do everything. But the one thing that no one can take away.

Is the love that you have for another human being. And I think for me, it is such a powerful realization that whenever we face difficulties in life, as we just always lean on that fact, that no matter how hard things get and how tough it is, you can unlock greatness through those deep interpersonal relationships and the love that you have for each other and the care that you have for each other unlocks amazing greatness and every business success I've ever been privileged to be part of.

has never been about one individual. It's about unlocking the greatness within each other. [00:49:00]And the belief, you know, is it is what creates that, that self confidence,

Scott: the collective wisdom,

the perceived wisdom. So, and we need that environment. So that's quite a powerful story to nearly. And so I think as, as to, to finish on I do love that, that you can never take away that hope's a powerful thing as well. Hope. It's a really powerful driver of human behavior and what we can do. So on sort of finishing this, this, this, this podcast, I would like to say thank you very much for all three of you for contributing to it.

It's been very insightful. So if you could sum it up in, 'cause members how might we, is the question. So we a question. So how might we, we would like to go first. I start being back at school. This isn't, it's like the end of it is like the end of term test. How might we construct? Shall I go first? Shall I try?

Mark: Shall I go for it? [00:50:00] Yep. And I'm going to put another thing on we're going to give it, try see if we can do it in 30 seconds each as well. 30 seconds to a minute each.

I think I'll do that. I think I'll do it in, I'll beat that. I'm a competitive, I'm a competitive male. Diversity and inclusion is your opportunity as well.

There's a better life, better career, better health, better relationships, better friendships, more opportunity and choice. Go free yourself.

Scott: Okay, good. That's put Gary looks pensive and thoughtful. Now you can't see this because I don't put this in any audio, but trust me, I could be, I could be one of these commentators on TMS.

I should do. They describe the test.

Gary: Scott. Yeah. How am I, how might we create inclusive leaders? I mean, I, I think it's fundamentally, we've got to have conversation. I mean, I think, you know, everyone made this point. We've got to listen. We need to listen more. We need to listen better. And [00:51:00] we need to understand that all of us have a unique set of capabilities and unique set of insights.

We are all bringing something amazing to whatever kind of shared endeavor we're trying to achieve. And I think our role as leaders is to find the ways of unlocking that. And to Mark's point, because actually it makes us better too.

Scott: So that's that comes back to that book, helpful is your bucket when you're actually have a positive interaction, you feel somebody else's bucket up and your own when you're negative you empty theirs and your own.

So it's psychologically damaging to ourselves to do this. Okay, thank you very much. Doug, you're not really going to beat your last one, are you?

Douglas: No, no, I think that's a hard one. Gary and Mark had really strong finishes there. So it's for me you know, in terms of inclusive leadership, it's, it's powerful.

It's being vision led, values driven in one's life, people centered. and to light the [00:52:00] flame in someone's heart is the most rewarding thing you will ever achieve. And it will uplift you, not only them, and it becomes positively contagious. And that's when you achieve amazing things.

Scott: Okay. Thank you very much, Jens.

I really can't, you can tell that he's got authors in this room and then there's me. Very much more industrially in my communication style.

You've done a great job, Scott. I don't think I could have navigated as well as you, so thank you. Oh, you're welcome. You

Mark: have the voice. You have the voice, Scott. You have the voice.

Yes,

Scott: I do. I do. Mine would be quite simple as a leader. The thing is, just be curious with care. Be curious with care. I think if you're curious, I think it's a catalyst for so many different things. Somebody asked me, what's that? I said, that's one thing I would develop as a leader is the ability, is my personal curiosity about myself and those around me.

I think it's important. Okay. So it was always just me today. Thank you very much, gentlemen. Thank you very much for your time. It's been an amazing conversation. And [00:53:00] yes. All the details for how to contact the three guests will be on the

on the page. So just read it, connect with them. If anything, you want to find out more about what they do, the amazing work they do with leadership around the world to help us have a more inclusive workplace and world.

Don't we need it? And that's the climate we've got today. So thank you very much, gentlemen.