0:00

This is Epicenter, Episode 517 with guest

0:02

Evgeny Jotev.

0:05

Welcome

0:19

to Epicenter, the show which talks about the

0:21

technologies, projects and people driving

0:23

decentralization and the blockchain revolution. I'm

0:26

Friederike Ernst and today I'm speaking with Evgeny,

0:29

who is the co-founder and CEO of Zerion,

0:32

which is a well-known Web3 wallet.

0:34

Evgeny, welcome. Thanks, Friederike.

0:38

It's really a pleasure to

0:40

be here. It's

0:42

the podcast that I've known for

0:44

a while, so I'm super happy to be here. And

0:47

yeah, thanks for hosting.

0:49

Cool. So

0:53

you know about us, but what about

0:55

you? Tell us about yourself. What's your background?

0:58

Sure. So, as mentioned

1:01

already, I'm Evgeny. I've

1:03

been in the crypto space since roughly

1:06

forever. I would say

1:08

like since

1:09

the... My first interaction was like

1:12

early on in 2015 or even earlier than

1:14

that. But

1:17

I really, really got into crypto after

1:20

the white paper for Ethereum, to

1:22

be quite honest. I still remember

1:25

the day when I was on the subway, just

1:27

like scrolling through the internet and

1:30

I came across the white paper and I just read

1:32

it through it. It blew my mind. So

1:35

that's how I got into the whole space. Basically

1:37

since then, I've been committed

1:39

to working in Web3, even though it wasn't

1:42

called Web3 back in the day.

1:45

Before that, I was still studying at

1:47

that moment. I was studying computer

1:50

science. That's my background. I'm an

1:52

engineer by education and

1:54

my first adventures. But honestly,

1:57

in my spirit, I'm an entrepreneur.

1:59

So I've been working on my

2:02

own projects basically since

2:04

high school and I started like

2:07

various mobile apps, chatbots,

2:10

some of them like with variable level of success.

2:13

I think that the most interesting one was actually

2:15

already in the crypto space. That's before ZRAN

2:17

was an app called CryptoTrader. It

2:20

had over a million downloads with like

2:23

free like zero marketing efforts

2:25

or anything. It was just for tracking

2:27

whatever price it was. I built it for myself and

2:29

it just scaled to maybe

2:32

go like that. Before

2:34

that, I worked, this is how I actually found

2:36

my gold founder. I was building

2:39

mobile applications with like a venture

2:41

studio in Moscow. So

2:44

that's the background.

2:46

Cool. When you were on

2:48

the subway reading the Ethereum white

2:50

paper, what was it exactly

2:52

that appeared? What kind of

2:54

the technology it's for, kind of

2:57

the idea of what it could empower

3:00

in the long run?

3:02

Yeah, so this is I

3:04

think a fairly typical story for

3:06

anyone living in a

3:09

third world country. When

3:14

the financial system basically like after the

3:16

Soviet Union collapse, obviously Russia took

3:18

a capitalist approach. But

3:22

the financial system was not nearly

3:24

as stable as it was in Europe,

3:26

for example, in the US. First,

3:30

I was intrigued by the

3:33

idea of programmable money. This

3:35

is like first when I read about Bitcoin. But

3:38

as an engineer myself, I was not

3:41

convinced fully, I would say, that

3:43

this is going to be, you know,

3:46

I kind of liked it. I started reading about

3:48

the nature of currency, the nature of money, how

3:50

it all works, why is the currency

3:53

in my country collapsing? In

3:56

others, it doesn't, why the stock

3:58

market behaves like the way it is.

3:59

way it behaves.

4:01

So this got my interest

4:03

but really, really got excited when I understood

4:05

that you could leverage

4:07

the technology of blockchain to expand

4:10

that to essentially programmable

4:13

trust. So it's not just about money anymore.

4:16

And if we can't have this shared

4:19

trust layer, which is the Ethereum computer,

4:21

this is where I got I

4:24

was sold basically. And

4:26

yeah, I think there were a lot of other really

4:30

forward looking ideas in the white paper, many

4:33

of which were, I guess, took

4:35

years and years to realize. But I

4:37

think the main proposition was

4:42

changing the rules basically and where

4:44

this whole thing is headed.

4:47

Yeah, absolutely. So after

4:50

the success of crypto trader, you

4:52

guys started Zarian together. What

4:55

was the motivation behind? I

4:57

mean, basically, even back then, there were a multitude

5:00

of wallets, right? So kind of what was the

5:03

motivation behind starting yet

5:05

another wallet?

5:07

Yeah, so I think it's fair

5:09

to kind of took a little bit of a D route here

5:11

and talk about zeros

5:14

evolution. So Zarian was zero

5:16

in the petit the wallet only for the last year

5:19

and half roughly. And all

5:21

the all the time before that Zarian was three

5:25

different companies. So we really started

5:27

with, you know,

5:29

like you can call it the smart contract development

5:32

studio. So we were helping out the companies

5:34

and with ideas who knew what they want to build

5:36

on top of theorem, just realize their

5:39

things. And later, I think

5:41

like the first really the story where of zero

5:44

in itself starts with a portfolio tracking,

5:47

when we decided that we actually

5:49

didn't want to build a wallet, there were so many already

5:51

like there were quite a few wallets, the space

5:53

was pretty much starting

5:56

to be filled with a magnitude

5:58

of tokens. people really needed

6:01

tools for them to keep track

6:03

of stuff that is happening, what they have even in

6:05

their wallet. And this

6:07

is, by the way, still a big issue

6:10

for the existing big wallets, not

6:12

have to call them out here. And

6:15

we started with that mission to track basically

6:17

everything that happens on chain, such

6:20

that the users don't have to worry about it. And they have

6:23

control because control means safety. And

6:25

this is how we got our first user base. So people

6:28

were coming to the ear and just see what they

6:30

really have in their portfolio, what kind of transactions they were

6:32

making. And that's been

6:34

fairly successful. And this is how we

6:36

got started. But what we realized

6:39

over time, is that

6:41

DeFi is becoming like a big thing.

6:44

And it's now much easier than

6:46

ever because of this access

6:49

to decentralized trust in a way,

6:51

we could just integrate Uniswap without even

6:53

like going and talking to Uniswap. And

6:56

people could start leveraging that within our

6:58

interface. And we soon noticed

7:00

that basically the users who

7:02

are transacting using Varian, they

7:05

are our, you can call like super facts.

7:07

So they just love the experience, they love the

7:09

UI, they like love the combination of

7:11

the portfolio tracking with the transacting

7:14

part. And we

7:16

kind of, we dived into this

7:18

path, and we started doing more and more

7:20

integrations. We were the first ever

7:23

integration of Uniswap. I think

7:25

the first integration of MakerDAO, the

7:27

first integration of Compound v2, and

7:29

like a few other protocols. So really,

7:31

really early in the DeFi journey. And

7:34

eventually, this whole, I guess,

7:37

pathway led us to realizing

7:39

that this is time when we are ready

7:42

to start our own bullet, because

7:44

the existing wallets were still lagging

7:46

behind in terms of the, I guess,

7:48

the data capabilities. So in

7:51

the UX in general, so UX,

7:53

I think in crypto in a big way is

7:56

build on top of good data and like fast

7:59

AI.

7:59

like fast understanding what was in your wallet

8:02

to make the decisions to sign transactions in

8:04

a safer way to exactly know like how

8:07

connecting to dApps and etc. So all

8:09

that requires good information. And we

8:11

had that for a while now. And

8:15

we decided that the wallet should have it

8:18

all. And

8:20

that was the whole motivation behind

8:24

moving into the wallet space eventually. I think

8:26

I kind of see it as like the end game

8:28

for Zarian. We weren't thinking of

8:31

doing a wallet for a very, very long

8:33

time. We always like postpone that and like,

8:36

it's much harder to compete, it's harder to monetize,

8:38

etc, etc. But yeah,

8:40

I feel like we're ready now.

8:43

And yeah, lastly, I think what was important to mention

8:45

here, a very long time ago, I

8:48

think it was like 2017, we even

8:50

had an attempt at wallets,

8:52

we didn't put too much effort

8:55

into it, but it was called tokenary. It was one

8:57

of the it was built by

8:59

one of our engineers. So basically like

9:01

a kind of like a sister

9:03

company or a speed off from Zarian. And

9:06

it was called tokenary. So

9:08

that was like very, very simple wallet.

9:11

It was built using the kind of

9:13

telegram principle of removing all

9:15

the clutter just keeping focus

9:17

on one single wallet, just

9:19

the tokens and signing transactions. That's

9:22

it. It was a cool thing.

9:24

We still had users on that. But

9:27

we're not doing anything anymore. But that's

9:30

obviously now zero is the main thing.

9:34

Okay, maybe let's talk about and kind

9:36

of how Zarian

9:39

handles for the user. And then we can kind of talk

9:41

about kind of the spectrum

9:43

of wallets and kind of what they do for you

9:45

x and kind of what you guys plan to do

9:47

for you x because obviously it's I mean, it's

9:49

super apparent that user experience

9:51

for wallet has to greatly improve

9:54

for this to kind of see any mainstream

9:56

adoption. So kind of talk us through and

9:59

if

9:59

I go to Zarian.io now

10:02

and want to create a wallet?

10:04

How do you guys do that for me? Where

10:06

are the keys? How do

10:08

I safe keep them?

10:10

Yeah, so I think the best

10:13

experience would be on mobile still. So we

10:15

are in the process of releasing. So for

10:17

our web users, we are in the process

10:19

of releasing the extension. So this is a happening

10:22

already, we're going to go public live

10:25

in about a month from now. So

10:28

we're pretty much gearing for that and excited for

10:31

this launch. We still already have over 10,000 beta

10:34

users of the extension. But

10:37

yeah, that would be the milestone. The

10:39

majority of our users of the wallet

10:41

are on mobile. And

10:44

the way it works is a very

10:47

classic non-custodial wallet.

10:49

So you come, you create a seat place,

10:51

we'll guide you through how you should recover that.

10:54

We were obviously thinking about

10:56

other ways of custody. But I

10:58

think for us, the main reason why we wanted

11:00

to keep it very simple is

11:03

that first, we do rely a lot

11:05

on composability. So dApps have

11:07

to work for the wallet to

11:09

be useful. And second,

11:11

we wanted to, you can go

11:13

like a vampire attack on MetaMask. We

11:16

want users to migrate over and we

11:18

still have a pretty big chunk of users just

11:20

moving their seat phrase from MetaMask to

11:23

Xerion. And yeah,

11:25

the seat phrase just stays on the device.

11:27

And we obviously don't have access

11:29

to it. You can back it up in iCloud

11:32

if you want.

11:33

And yeah, that's about it in terms

11:35

of just creating a wallet. So it's very simple,

11:37

just a few taps. Yeah. And in

11:39

terms of the experience, I guess,

11:42

what you get is the DAP browser

11:44

that works. So you can connect to any DAP and

11:46

you can decide transactions.

11:49

You can connect to pretty much any

11:51

network out there. So we support fully

11:54

support in terms of data capabilities, we support

11:56

about 10 chains, and the rest

11:58

you can just

11:59

custom NPC and start sending transactions.

12:02

We do check every transaction

12:05

before it's sent by

12:07

simulating it and giving you what is

12:09

going to happen as a result of this transaction.

12:11

I know that the safe does that too. And

12:14

like good, better wallets are

12:16

doing that now. So that's good. And

12:19

we obviously check the domain names for phishing

12:21

and basically doing all kinds of security checks

12:24

in the moment of transactions. And we plan

12:26

to add more and more stuff on the

12:28

security of basically interacting

12:31

with the blockchains.

12:34

Okay, and

12:35

we'll dive into that in just a bit. Let's kind of

12:37

just remain on the seed phrase for now. So

12:40

I assume the seed phrase is in some sort

12:42

of secure enclave

12:44

in your phone. When

12:46

you say you can back it

12:48

up to iCloud,

12:50

can you also just write

12:52

it down kind of pen and paper or

12:54

do you never get to see it?

12:56

You obviously can. Yes. So

12:58

that would be the default way for for most

13:01

people who know how to handle the seed phrases.

13:03

But backing it up to

13:05

iCloud is still it's kind of an

13:08

easy way for you to for someone who is not

13:11

too experienced with crypto, but to want to

13:13

give it a go to not lose

13:15

the key. If for example,

13:18

their device is stolen

13:21

or lost. In that case, they

13:24

might have forgotten to back it

13:26

up using like a paper and pen.

13:29

And in that case, they could just using

13:31

their Apple ID or Google

13:33

account, they add in plus

13:35

like their biometrics, they can restore access

13:38

to the seed phrase. So basically, the seed phrase

13:40

is not stored in the open way in

13:42

iCloud or Google Drive, it's

13:44

encrypted with your biometrics and stored.

13:47

So basically, if you lose both your,

13:50

I guess, pin to the phone and

13:52

your phone, that's when you actually lose

13:54

the key. Yeah, but

13:56

in other cases, it saves from unlike

13:58

the most common

13:59

a way of loading a seed phrase is when you

14:02

forgot to back it up.

14:04

So yeah, that's that's where we

14:06

are. It doesn't obviously protect from the

14:09

leakage of the seed phrase. So if you've written

14:11

down some seed phrases, that's the biggest concern.

14:13

So if you write it down somewhere and someone finds it

14:16

out, finds out your seed, many

14:18

is done. And obviously there are

14:21

ways to prevent from that, but

14:23

that's of course using a completely different stack

14:26

of 50. And yeah,

14:29

I think next year would probably

14:31

be when that gets more and more

14:33

adoption.

14:35

Who are your users? So basically,

14:38

if you kind of look at financial applications,

14:40

there are typically kind of users who are kind

14:42

of happy to use their phones for stuff.

14:45

But at some point, kind of at some

14:48

level of awareness,

14:50

this stops, right? You're not going to make

14:53

you know, $1 million transaction from your phone,

14:55

people just have an aversion to that. So kind of who's

14:58

your user base?

15:00

Actually, that's a good question. So yeah, I have

15:02

two things on this. So speaking of the

15:04

user base,

15:06

it's,

15:07

it starts with obviously, we're

15:09

not focused on a whale

15:11

type of user. So if you really want to

15:13

store a lot of money, a zirion is not

15:15

the right now, at least is not the place

15:18

where you should be doing that. So zirion is

15:20

primarily for your, I would call

15:22

it like public on chain identity.

15:26

So if you want to mint

15:28

NFTs, if you want to quickly

15:31

sign into something on on a conference,

15:34

if you are trying to, I don't know, like,

15:36

buy some random token or mint

15:39

a sound on

15:41

sound xyz, or mint

15:43

a post on mirrors of these types

15:45

of actions, whether that's

15:48

collecting or like buying

15:50

some random tokens in small amounts just

15:52

to play around testing new stuff, new

15:55

dapps, new protocols, games, whatever that is. That's

15:59

where we we share. really and zero

16:01

was meant for users who are doing a lot

16:03

of transactions so that's kind of opposed

16:06

to what ledger is meant to

16:08

be a maybe safe Like

16:10

I mean you know This is safe where you keep

16:12

a lot of funds and you try not to touch

16:14

them But when you do you do it like very carefully

16:17

So that would be the use case for a ledger

16:20

and that's why like obviously ledger is not convenient

16:22

You need to carry it around like flag

16:24

him and obviously like it you want

16:27

one do that in like a minute and zero

16:29

and you can just like pull it up scan

16:31

if your code or a min stuff or Like

16:34

test out and you don't on the go.

16:36

So that's the main use case

16:39

And the second thing I wanted to add is I

16:42

think in the future It would still work

16:44

really nicely with these types of use

16:46

cases And for that is just a

16:48

little a bit more time is required

16:51

So obviously the safe integration

16:53

on the zeroing and could be one of the

16:55

solutions where you could like initiate

16:58

transactions from the phone and there's

17:00

not going to be any security concerns because

17:03

you have a second key where like you have a Friend

17:05

who would need to confirm transaction and

17:08

even with the ledger we have Some users

17:10

who are using zirian mobile experience

17:12

with the ledger and soon they will be able

17:15

to do that with extension so it's kind of like

17:17

an interface you don't have to worry about the key

17:19

being leaked in any way or Yeah,

17:22

you can keep this much fun. That is you want obviously

17:24

on these types of boards So we kind

17:26

of separate the wallet experience from custody

17:29

and currently our custody works for these

17:32

like smaller type of like amounts of money,

17:34

but much broader set

17:37

of use cases

17:39

Have you looked at kind of second signers and

17:41

so on that kind of connect with NFC?

17:44

Because kind of you know being mobile

17:46

first that sort of you know, a

17:49

low-hanging fruit, no

17:51

we did and by that you mean

17:53

like Kind of like a UBQ like

17:55

NFC Like

17:58

a tangent card

17:59

Yes, the

18:01

issue with all of that, so

18:04

it all sounds great and I would really

18:06

love to have something like that. And

18:08

I've seen the test that numerous

18:11

cards that you need to tap to like confirm actions.

18:14

I even like I have an NFC ring

18:17

here that that I'm using for

18:20

payment. So I'm a big nerd

18:22

for these types of things. But I think when it

18:24

comes to more mass adoption,

18:26

this is logistics, it's expensive.

18:30

So basically, if we have

18:32

this much user base, like only whatever 10%

18:34

tops would be willing

18:37

to pay for it, reveal their address like that,

18:40

like levels and levels of

18:42

considerations that we need to take care of before

18:46

using that specific solution that it never really

18:48

took off. So I think our

18:50

our way is honestly software rather

18:53

than hardware when it comes to adoption.

18:56

So making things cheaper and making them making

18:58

them more available through

19:01

existing technology. And that's why,

19:03

for example, a construction to me is is

19:05

more, I guess, a reliable

19:08

way to progress with the UX,

19:11

and also like the new signature.

19:13

So if we can use a re reuse

19:15

the signature from existing

19:18

hardware devices, which could

19:20

basically like that they're not currently compatible with

19:22

the same signatures. But if we can make using

19:24

kind of fresh and then compatible, then we

19:26

can leverage existing hardware in the in

19:29

the phone, and we don't have to even have a ledger.

19:31

So I think that's the best pathway

19:34

forward and for

19:36

like all the mass adoption.

19:39

Good. So I understand that

19:42

kind of the users

19:44

that use saryon currently are

19:46

kind of like people who go to events who

19:48

kind of want to try out different

19:50

apps, kind of have spending money just

19:52

kind of like on on a

19:56

low barrier to entry mobile app.

19:58

What are your intended users? Because kind of

20:01

that's as a market,

20:03

that's a very constrained

20:06

set of people, right?

20:08

Yeah, I think it's constrained

20:10

right now. But I'm

20:12

a big proponent of the

20:14

growth of the Webtree user base. And

20:17

we kind of we define our users as web-precitizen.

20:20

And we've been pretty vocal about that. And

20:23

we, I still feel

20:25

pretty strongly that we don't really have to change

20:28

that. I know that a lot

20:30

of people are talking about onboarding, you know,

20:32

the newbies, billions of users

20:35

to Webtree. But to me, I think

20:37

it should grow from within it should grow from the

20:40

Webtree citizens themselves.

20:43

And we really want to support the use

20:45

cases that are actually

20:47

working and useful in Webtree. And

20:50

that's why we want to kind of we're

20:52

focusing on what people are doing now

20:55

in Webtree, because

20:58

that kind of gives us early hints of what could

21:00

be useful for the rest of the market

21:02

when it when the time comes. So yeah,

21:05

I don't think I don't really believe in us

21:08

deciding, like someone finding

21:10

out randomly that this is what people would

21:12

want. And I think the UX of the wallet

21:15

is no matter

21:17

how bad it is, we need to find the use cases

21:20

within the Webtree space that will attract

21:22

people. And once we have that, and

21:24

I hope we won't miss that. So as

21:27

these narratives are created

21:29

within the Webtree ecosystem, and the

21:32

year and supports them, then all the

21:34

new users who are going to come to Webtree

21:36

and become Webtree citizens, they would be the

21:39

ones like they would try

21:41

to look up to all the Webtree citizens who were there

21:43

and they were coming, they would be coming for the

21:45

use cases that we've developed. So that's

21:47

my point of view. So I'm not like a big believer

21:50

in copying something and just putting on on

21:53

Webtree and making it

21:55

like look like it's web too, because because

21:58

why like it's the same but just more expensive

22:00

and users would probably

22:03

come for maybe some incentives but that's

22:06

it they would just leave

22:07

next day. Okay and

22:10

then maybe

22:11

looking at the wallet as it is now not

22:13

kind of at the user experience as you

22:15

wanted to develop in the future. What

22:17

are the challenges of building a wallet?

22:19

So kind of I assume there's kind of like you

22:22

need to run archival nodes and have like databases

22:24

and so on for several chains but it

22:27

walk us through the details.

22:29

Well

22:31

there's quite a few and that really

22:33

depends on what kind of what we're talking about.

22:36

So first of all

22:39

none of the I guess like very very

22:41

few wallets run archival nodes just

22:44

on even nodes. Even though we

22:46

do a lot of focus on the data we

22:48

don't run our own nodes because this is

22:50

like someone else's business they do that better.

22:53

For us I think that speaking from like

22:55

the product perspective I think

22:57

the biggest challenge is

23:00

really understanding what's key to have

23:02

on the wallet level versus what

23:04

should live on the DAP level and

23:07

that's

23:08

a balance

23:09

and I think every wallet is

23:11

really going through that so some wallets

23:13

were like okay we have to do things very very

23:15

certain way like this this is the only

23:17

way you can do stuff this these are the only DAPs

23:20

you can access and being

23:22

very restrictive there are wallets that are completely

23:24

kind of removed

23:27

from from your experience and they just say okay

23:29

that's the key everything else is like up

23:31

to you I think Manamask is probably on that

23:33

kind of that spectrum so

23:36

they don't really make any decisions for the user

23:38

they don't try to network help

23:41

the user do the right decisions

23:43

at all I think we sit somewhere in the middle so

23:46

we're being more pragmatic I would

23:48

say about it so we know that spam for example

23:50

is a big problem so we do work on our

23:52

end to remove spam because this leads to

23:54

phishing at least to people losing

23:57

funds same goes to any

24:00

when it comes to like setting up the transaction. We want

24:02

by default to have protection for

24:04

our users. So stuff like that

24:06

is where we take a stance,

24:10

but we don't want to limit the user. And that's

24:12

another reason I've mentioned already, we wanted

24:14

to go with C phrases because we want

24:17

users to be able to access a wider range

24:19

of things. So whatever depth

24:21

they want to access, we want to have that.

24:24

Yeah, and I think that's on the product

24:26

level from I guess the

24:29

business angle, obviously is monetization.

24:32

We will talk about that I guess later.

24:35

But yeah, monetization

24:37

is obviously has been a pain

24:40

for most of the votes with an exception,

24:42

I think of one

24:44

or maybe two, okay, two ledger, we

24:46

can call it ledger in Madamask as the

24:48

ones who were not struggling with monetization.

24:51

And lastly, I think on the intro side, I

24:53

don't think it's a really hard thing, like

24:58

a challenge, it's more hard work that we need

25:00

to put into that.

25:03

But I hope that plays off. So

25:06

if you think about kind of the decisions you

25:09

make for the user, so kind of

25:12

what depth to

25:14

display in

25:15

your wallet, for instance,

25:17

what's the approval process and kind of if

25:19

I'm a Zarian user, can I make sure that these

25:21

are kind of audited or

25:24

trusted or that there's at least so and so

25:26

much TVL that kind of hasn't been so I

25:28

mean, what am I sure this is?

25:31

That's a good question. We actually, on

25:33

the on the DAPLIS side, we don't do

25:35

any kind of restrictions. So

25:38

you can access it's more like a

25:40

Google like interface. And this is where we're

25:42

different from, I guess majority of us

25:44

were which run like a mini

25:47

marketplace of the approved

25:50

DAPLIS. We decided against that

25:53

for for the sake of openness.

25:56

And basically, we don't really want

25:59

to recommend any in particular, so usually

26:01

users would come with an intention in mind

26:03

of what exactly they

26:06

should do and we provide that with that.

26:08

What we do though to help users

26:11

kind of make slightly like basically

26:13

not to go to a different Uniswap,

26:16

maybe mistype, we have a small blue

26:18

checkmark. So if they start typing

26:21

uni, a few options would show up

26:23

and Uniswap would have the blue checkmark. That's

26:26

just a list that we maintain of domain name

26:28

associations and that's a pretty exhaustive

26:30

list of non spammy,

26:32

non phishing groups.

26:35

We don't have a process for this one,

26:37

so it's currently just managed internally. We

26:40

used to have, so for

26:42

the tokens we do the same, but the process there

26:44

is a little different. So we are relying on token

26:46

lists. So token lists is like the centralized

26:49

effort for curating

26:52

legit tokens. So we rely on that.

26:55

With dApps there is no such thing as

26:57

far as I understand right now. We

27:00

would want to have that if that's

27:02

available. And

27:04

obviously we don't want to make these decisions

27:07

for the user. That's

27:09

something that we think users

27:11

should be on their own when making stuff like

27:13

that.

27:14

How do you think about kind

27:16

of the attack factors that

27:19

kind of come with being a frontend

27:21

to kind of other people's smart

27:23

contracts, right? So basically if you're frontend where

27:25

to be hacked, kind of your

27:29

users could be kind of siphoned

27:32

off by malicious sites and so on. So what

27:34

kind of security do you have

27:37

in place for that?

27:38

Yeah, this is I think a very, this

27:42

is somewhat of a more solved problem

27:45

in a way. So that's not novel. It's something

27:47

that every

27:49

startup is running into that runs any kind of

27:52

frontend. So I think it's first

27:54

of all it's a little, yeah, it's

27:56

a smaller problem and that just takes

27:59

good, uh, like, gee,

28:02

in terms of cybersecurity. Um,

28:05

yeah, we just do testing of our

28:07

own infrastructure. We've employed

28:10

white hackers to poke around and like,

28:12

try to point stuff. The attack vector is

28:15

still fairly limited, because

28:18

it's basically we only need

28:20

to safeguard, um, the deployment

28:22

of this new up like the new versions of

28:24

the front end. And the biggest risk obviously

28:27

is where the keys are stored. So deployment

28:29

of extension deployment of mobile apps.

28:32

And that big

28:34

portion of that security is on the Apple

28:37

and Google side. So they help you

28:39

not to make like, basically, if there's a deployment

28:42

happening, we would all see that. And it's

28:46

a fairly removed risk. I

28:48

think for us where we did pay out

28:50

bounties, for example, where

28:53

we can call them like informational attacks. So

28:56

I still remember like one big case where we had to

28:58

pay, it was like $40,000 or

29:00

something were lost. And

29:02

that was because someone created

29:05

a fake balancer pool that

29:08

looked like a regular balancer

29:10

pool and handle and they faked that

29:13

pool to look like it has a lot of TVL.

29:15

So it showed up in in Zaria and people were like,

29:18

hey, this is like a legit they thought it's

29:20

a legit pool because it has a certain amount of TVL.

29:23

And we didn't check the factory

29:25

contract that was created creating that since

29:27

then we started doing that but that was a bug that

29:30

we didn't anticipate. So it

29:32

was put up on the front page with like

29:34

high TVL, someone put somebody

29:36

that lost it. So we

29:39

assume that this is our mistake, even though

29:41

obviously, like you have to verify everything but

29:43

we yeah,

29:45

we didn't mean to show this pool anyway. So yeah,

29:48

that's, these are some learnings. We

29:51

didn't go through like a massive breach

29:53

of security. And for us,

29:55

I think like not sending a seed phrase

29:57

somewhere where it shouldn't be. that

30:00

would be the only thing we should worry about

30:02

really. And for that, we just always do

30:04

the audits thing. It's been

30:08

six, seven already, and

30:11

we keep doing that. That's going to be a big

30:13

expense.

30:15

Another attack factor is kind of having

30:18

transactions you can't read, right?

30:21

So basically, human readable

30:23

transaction code rather than kind of like the ABI

30:26

that you kind of get. How

30:27

do you feel about that? Because

30:30

it's a difficult problem to solve kind

30:32

of generally. But if

30:34

you don't know what you're signing as a user,

30:36

it's really difficult, right?

30:38

Yeah.

30:39

So for that, I think what really

30:41

works, I would say well is the

30:44

simulations. So that's been getting

30:47

implemented across the board. So I think it started

30:49

with a few extra extensions

30:51

that you would need to run in

30:53

parallel with like whatever, metamask. But

30:56

now it's integrated in Xerion

30:58

obviously in Coinbase Wallet

31:00

and safe. So I think that saves

31:03

you and kind of allows you to do a

31:05

quick check of what

31:07

is actually happening. It's still not

31:10

perfect because sometimes the dApps would

31:12

be asking you some signature that

31:14

is you have you don't

31:16

have any idea what can happen. You

31:18

have to have a more. Yeah, I guess like a

31:20

secure setup so you understand where the signature

31:23

can be applied. But I think this is going

31:25

to be solved over time as well. So we

31:28

do for specific signatures

31:30

when you are issuing a permit

31:33

for some contract to spend your your

31:35

USDC or something else. We

31:37

would also recognize that and show you

31:39

in a human readable way that some data

31:42

is trying to spend as

31:44

much money as something that you really

31:46

want to be doing or or not.

31:49

And yeah, simulation, I think really, really helps. So

31:51

if you weren't your intention was to mint an

31:53

NFT. If this is what you see as

31:56

a result of simulation, then most likely that's

31:58

that's correct. I think in

32:00

the future, this is even better than in the

32:02

web-to-world. So

32:06

in the web-to-world, you just plug in your

32:08

credit card and you leverage

32:10

the trust network of all the POS

32:13

connected to Visa and they do all this

32:15

front prevention if they see something

32:17

iffy. But you have to rely on someone

32:20

else doing the job of verifying that you're actually

32:22

doing something legit

32:25

and not every transaction

32:27

supports like 3D security with

32:29

cards. So in crypto,

32:32

you can have basically

32:34

deterministic outcome of the transaction

32:37

in most cases. So you could see exactly

32:39

what's happening. I think the security when it comes

32:42

to signing will just keep getting better

32:44

and users won't even need to know what

32:47

like ABI is. And I

32:49

really hope that they don't. Absolutely.

32:51

So I think if we can make that happen,

32:54

this is going to remain very niche.

32:57

So what networks are most of users on?

33:01

Good question. It's been

33:03

changing, honestly. And

33:06

we've been very positively surprised how

33:09

the adoption of layer 2 is

33:11

growing. So we had like

33:14

during this year, it went from roughly

33:17

like 70% Ethereum domination

33:20

to now Ethereum being I don't

33:23

want to be like I cannot give specific numbers.

33:25

I didn't rehearse that. But

33:27

we have it's one of

33:30

the chains. So you can see it's

33:32

full list of transactions that are being

33:35

done in all different chains. And

33:37

they roughly similar. I think the biggest one

33:39

is still polygon, but it's kind

33:41

of shrinking in comparison to ZK

33:45

sync, for example, transactions or base transactions.

33:49

Optimism, Arbitrum were historically

33:51

growing pretty much every month. And

33:54

Ethereum is kind of like at capacity.

33:56

So it just sits there and everything

33:58

else is growing. So very exciting. to see.

34:01

And we do believe really, like

34:03

we kind of refocused our attention from

34:06

DeFi protocols more

34:08

towards supporting more and more chains,

34:11

because we think that in terms of the primitives

34:13

were pretty much there. Because

34:15

like I think, regionally,

34:17

people were thinking that DeFi would create,

34:19

you know, 1000s, and we were one of the

34:22

believers in that that like that we're going to

34:25

see at least hundreds of

34:27

different, I mean,

34:29

meaningfully different protocols in

34:32

DeFi, or just the idea of DeFi.

34:34

But it turned out, I think that we have a pretty

34:37

stable set of primitives

34:39

that people use. And everything

34:41

else is more like forks

34:44

or just slight adjustments of

34:46

what we have. And we've

34:48

decided that, okay, we have to support this set

34:50

of primitives. But really, where we

34:53

should spend our time is, you know, number

34:57

of tokens and chains that are being

34:59

created. Because this is because we

35:01

had kind of solidified the

35:03

architecture, I would say, of this

35:06

world computer. So we have all the bits

35:08

and pieces in place roughly, these

35:10

computers can now talk to each other. So now we just need

35:13

to support this network of computers

35:16

as the world.

35:18

How do users go between different chains

35:20

or between Ethereum and then

35:23

L2? Do you guys kind of have

35:25

endorsed bridges that you kind of offer

35:28

as a standard interface? Or how

35:30

would I go about it?

35:31

Yeah, we actually support

35:34

socket.tech. So we've integrated

35:36

them and they are an aggregator of bridges.

35:40

The way it works is just they find the

35:42

best rates across different bridges

35:45

for any kind of swap and

35:48

the users just go and like select the bridge

35:50

they want to use so they could optimize for faster

35:53

transactions, faster settlement or

35:55

just cheaper, basically like

35:58

matching how much they will get on the other side. side of

36:00

the bridge. I would say

36:02

this experience is suboptimal.

36:05

Yeah, we've been even calculating the number

36:07

of steps it takes to bridge to

36:10

like a new chain. So switching

36:12

to a new chain is very simple. It's just like a few taps.

36:14

But if you want to move money,

36:16

you need to go and do probably 15

36:19

different steps as far as I remember. And

36:23

it also requires a lot of waiting time and it's

36:25

not transparent, even in Xerion. We

36:28

do as much as we can in

36:30

terms of tracking assets, but the bridging experience

36:32

is not up to because you can have this

36:34

moment where money is gone. You

36:37

have it in banks all the time, but encrypt

36:39

is unusual when you don't understand what

36:42

is happening with the money because it kind of went

36:44

away. And you just like wait

36:46

there and hope that it's going to come on the other side.

36:50

So we really want to optimize that in the future.

36:52

And the way to do that would be basically,

36:57

and that's a general principle, moving

37:00

away from multi-chain to one chain UX,

37:04

as we started describing it in side Xerion.

37:06

So when users already

37:08

need to understand the differences between

37:10

chains, unless they want to, and

37:13

you can seamlessly move and transact

37:15

on any dapp on any chain

37:18

without really like going

37:20

through bridging first and then doing a transaction.

37:22

So kind of bundling these two things together

37:24

and signing them all at once. So

37:27

I think that's the future and I don't

37:29

know when, but we're definitely going to get there.

37:34

But what are the steps kind of necessary

37:36

to get there, kind of the seamless bridging

37:39

that kind of just goes on behind the scenes

37:41

without the user even realizing? That's

37:44

a good question. I think first

37:46

it's obviously some UX work that we have to do. And

37:50

we need to have more universal

37:54

adoption of

37:57

either signing multiple actions with one chain

37:59

UX. tap. So

38:01

that's the cell wallets already started doing that.

38:03

Before the convention was that you have

38:06

to sign everything like every transaction

38:08

one by one. But with

38:10

approvals, that kills the experience

38:12

because you have to sign multiple things. Permits

38:16

are not universally accepted.

38:18

So that's, that's an issue. And

38:21

ideally, yeah, we can bundle a few

38:23

transactions together. And

38:25

the bridges are fast. And

38:28

they could execute on the other side.

38:31

Yeah, I think these are the necessary steps.

38:34

I don't know what would be the

38:37

guarantees between moving the bit

38:39

afford register to work between

38:42

different kinds of and different versions

38:45

of rollups. So whether it's

38:47

going to be the same security guarantees

38:49

to move from like an optimistic one to the zk

38:51

one. I'm not too sure about that.

38:53

But yeah,

38:56

I think that would be what we

38:58

want ultimately as

39:00

the goal.

39:03

So basically, you also cover

39:05

some chains that are not Ethereum,

39:09

right?

39:10

This was even called an experiment

39:13

with added support

39:15

for tracking Solana addresses.

39:19

But that we

39:21

all know the FTX story. But really,

39:24

it was I think we we're

39:26

not like our users don't really, they're

39:29

not so other users in short. And

39:32

to be quite honest, we have one

39:35

of the zero values is don't be a maxi.

39:38

And that's just like a whole company

39:41

value. And we wanted to store other

39:43

things we wanted to see so

39:45

Solana was obviously getting a lot of traction. So we

39:47

wanted to support it. And we did.

39:50

Since the FTX and just overall,

39:53

we didn't see a lot of traction in it. And we

39:55

haven't really put any more resources. Personally,

39:58

I'm a big EVM supporter

40:01

and believer because I feel that we're

40:04

kind of past the threshold

40:06

where it's easy to compete

40:08

with EVM just simply because we have so

40:11

much code written down and so much investment

40:13

done in security. I

40:15

think we were never maybe like someday

40:18

a new Apple will be born that is going to use a bit

40:20

of a different architecture. But I don't

40:23

think that's any time soon. It's

40:26

going to take years I

40:29

would say. So EVM is

40:31

the way to go and we've been basically

40:33

the whole infrastructure we built for

40:36

tracking assets, tracking positions is

40:40

built on EVM and specifically

40:42

for EVM.

40:45

We touched upon it earlier just a little

40:47

bit. How do you think about account abstraction

40:49

in MPC?

40:51

Right, this is a long

40:54

debate. We've been

40:56

researching both for a long time. I think

40:58

it started obviously more with MPC and account

41:00

abstraction became a more recent theme.

41:02

I think MPC is a little so

41:05

there are many things I can say I guess on

41:07

this and the short answer

41:10

depends what we're trying

41:12

to build towards when it comes to

41:15

experiences that remove the basically

41:18

the wallet from the picture completely.

41:20

So like applications that

41:23

integrate the world inside. I think

41:25

for them MPC is the only

41:27

way right now to manage that.

41:29

I think in the future though MPC

41:32

has much less flexibility than account

41:34

abstraction for anything

41:36

related to user experience like recovery

41:38

of phrases making actions on

41:40

behalf of the user. So with

41:43

MPC I think there are a few attempts how you can

41:45

implement the same programmability

41:47

really of MPC but this

41:49

is a little so

41:52

complicated and it's

41:54

hard to see like how

41:56

that's going to necessarily get all the traction.

41:59

So it feels like a To me,

42:01

when it comes down, now we can talk

42:03

about account abstraction. So with account abstraction, I think

42:06

in its current form, there are still problems.

42:09

So we started a long time ago with

42:11

this idea of let's replace all the

42:13

existing accounts and

42:15

with smart contract on the protocol

42:18

level. And I think it was like EIP 2000

42:20

something. I

42:23

don't remember exactly. But that EIP

42:25

was not a priority for the

42:28

community and for the protocol developers. So

42:30

I kind of was worried. And now

42:32

everyone is talking about DRC 4.37,

42:35

which is making account

42:37

abstraction on the application level

42:40

and without necessarily being hard for it. So

42:43

I don't think this is a way

42:45

to go for Ethereum at least, primarily

42:48

because of the costs associated

42:51

with that. And I think

42:54

the future of account abstraction is really

42:57

on L2s where L2s make

42:59

this hard choice and basically

43:01

implement it on the level of the protocol

43:04

when we actually remove the need for

43:07

users to upgrade and move their assets

43:10

from private keys to account

43:12

abstraction, abstracted wallets. So I

43:14

think that's the way to go. I

43:18

know that there are some teams that are working

43:20

on, for example, gelato team,

43:23

they're doing a roll up of the service. So

43:25

they are thinking about implementing that

43:28

for all their potential launch

43:30

partners such that this becomes

43:32

more of a standard in the space where every account

43:35

is indeed an abstracted wallet.

43:38

And in terms of possibilities, I think one

43:40

would be ideal in terms of the UXs. As

43:43

I mentioned previously, when we support the same cryptography

43:46

on account abstracted wallets together

43:48

with account abstracted wallets being on the

43:50

protocol level, I think that's where we get

43:54

all the flexibility that is needed

43:56

and it's not going to be associated

43:59

with an increased cost. for every

44:01

transaction and we don't have to do this massive

44:03

migration. I don't know what Istio

44:06

is gonna do though, it's tough. I think majority

44:08

of value is already on account

44:11

on smart contracts which is fine.

44:14

Probably no one will just use Ethereum

44:16

with private keys in the port somewhere and with

44:18

Istio will be just for roll-up

44:22

transactions and block contributions.

44:25

But we'll see. Yeah I think

44:28

that's our current view on

44:30

the whole thing. We are exploring more

44:33

native support for account abstracted wallets

44:35

in Ethereum without necessarily

44:38

launching our own version

44:40

of it. We kind of see it as in a current

44:42

form it would look like a

44:44

Ethereum bolt in sell way because

44:47

you still need to have a private key stored

44:49

somewhere. And

44:51

that would be the first step and we actually

44:54

already enabled some

44:56

of the standards for account abstraction

44:58

for tracking. So you could plug

45:00

in if you have an account you can plug

45:02

in and get at least a portfolio value over

45:05

time for these wallets.

45:07

We haven't done transacting

45:10

with these wallets yet but we are waiting

45:13

to do that.

45:15

Yeah let's leave that there for now. I think

45:18

there's something I want to come back to later but

45:21

let's talk about kind of the business model

45:23

for wallets first. So kind of monetizing

45:26

wallet has been notoriously difficult in

45:29

this ecosystem and with the two

45:31

notable exceptions that you mentioned

45:33

earlier that and Metemask.

45:35

What kind of business models exists

45:38

and why is it so hard for wallets

45:40

to kind of monetize?

45:42

It's a really good question.

45:45

So we've researched them all

45:47

I would say at this point. At

45:50

least like everything that's available on

45:52

the market right now. I think

45:54

there are a few things that really

45:56

work but they require scale and

45:59

they require A bit of a, you

46:01

know, if there is speculation and market

46:04

movement, obviously trading fees work.

46:06

And that's been working

46:08

for Metamask. It kind of does still

46:10

because they have a massive user base, they're obviously

46:13

earning a lot less with

46:15

with the fair market. But

46:18

all sorts of fees, they work because

46:20

users are ready to pay for convenience and trust. So

46:23

as they develop trust

46:25

to your product, if they store enough money

46:27

in it, and they kind of been using it forever,

46:30

they're okay with paying fees.

46:32

We

46:33

took a bit of a different pathway

46:35

here, in comparison to like some

46:37

other wallets. So most of the wallets, they

46:39

don't have any option for

46:41

more advanced users to stop paying

46:43

fees. And we took

46:46

it one step further. So we allow

46:48

allow you to basically call the certain specific

46:50

entity. So Zear and DNA

46:53

with premium, that allows you to

46:55

not pay any kinds of fees. And that's

46:58

basically our, we wanted

47:00

to be using Zear as well ourselves

47:03

internally in the team and for the majority,

47:05

but like actually big charge of our users who are pretty

47:07

active, and they do a

47:10

lot of transacting, it makes sense to have

47:12

the same good experience, but not pay, you

47:15

know, very high fees for swaps.

47:17

But at the same time, this works for less

47:20

experienced users who are okay with paying fees

47:22

for the sake of convenience and trust. So

47:25

that's the one model that works. And

47:28

yeah, but I'm not really excited

47:30

about it. And the reason is that training

47:32

fees, and all kinds of like bridging

47:35

fees or stuff like that is all

47:37

driving the wallets towards

47:40

the financial use cases. And we

47:42

see less and less transactions,

47:45

specifically for token trades, or

47:48

stuff like that. So a lot

47:50

more activities on maintain or doing

47:52

some governance. So people are doing

47:55

more things with their wallets rather than just

47:57

trading. And I think that drives

47:59

away the value of this business model. So

48:01

we don't want to be like Robinhood,

48:04

end up like Robinhood selling options to

48:07

retail users just to boost the volume.

48:10

So for us, like another big thing was

48:13

API. This is something that is not

48:15

accessible for a majority of other wallets because

48:17

they are just a front end.

48:19

We provide the data for the wallets

48:23

and we support quite

48:25

a few wallets out there. For example, Rainbow is

48:27

one of our clients since 2020. They've

48:30

been relying on zero in data and they

48:32

are ready to pay for that data because this is

48:35

empowering the user experience and we have more

48:37

and more wallets who are using and leveraging our

48:39

data. So that became, you can

48:43

call it like a bear market rescue

48:46

in terms of revenue and

48:48

monetization for us. And

48:50

lastly, I think the way to go, honestly,

48:53

a long term vision is to ideally

48:56

own the whole stack. So moving to monetizing

49:01

pretty much any transaction that user does and the

49:03

way to do that is either the applications

49:08

or the chains share revenue with odds

49:11

or we primarily work

49:13

with our own change or layer 2s

49:15

and we direct users to layer 2s

49:18

that we can monetize. So for example, like

49:20

launching our own layer 2 would be

49:23

an example where we can monetize any transaction

49:25

with a sequencer fees. So

49:28

that's I guess

49:31

the path forward potentially but it's

49:33

a little too early and we haven't

49:36

seen. So this is like very experimental.

49:39

They are knowable with currency who have their own

49:41

layer 2s. Manamust

49:43

is kind of with like the AI is kind

49:46

of moving in that direction. I think that's consensus

49:48

once at least. That's the feeling

49:50

that I'm getting. But this

49:53

might be an interesting avenue.

49:56

Have you looked at kind of becoming

49:58

even more of a service provider? provide and kind of

50:01

abstracting fees away from people

50:03

and kind of having them pay like a flat

50:05

fee or like a service

50:08

fee that kind of because kind

50:11

of what account abstraction also in principle

50:13

enables is kind of abstracting the gas

50:15

away from the user, which I think kind of if this

50:18

kind of if this were to become more mainstream,

50:21

this is I think where we have to go because

50:24

I mean, this is kind of the web to experience. No one

50:26

would ever say you're browsing to my website,

50:28

please cover your part of the AWS bill sort

50:31

of thing. So do you think

50:33

kind of abstracting that away

50:35

and then having people pay for the package?

50:38

Do you see that as viable?

50:41

We've researched that.

50:44

I think first of all, from the UX perspective,

50:47

you're completely right. This is definitely

50:50

how it will work. So

50:53

we'll abstract away the fees and I think we're not too

50:55

far off from that.

50:58

I think when it comes to monetizing that

51:00

it's a little different. So what

51:03

you're suggesting is that we add a certain

51:05

amount of like margin on top. So

51:08

we make users pay more for

51:10

the convenience and you

51:12

just charge them a flat fee per month.

51:15

Right. So basically, kind of like,

51:17

yeah, kind of like you do for kind of a

51:21

regular bank account. Kind

51:23

of you have like five euros per month

51:25

kind of in fees and but then you don't have to

51:28

pay for like every transaction, right?

51:30

Yeah. But even with banks,

51:32

right, like most of the banks now provide

51:34

this service for free. So it's kind of like a race

51:37

to zero with these types of fees.

51:39

So you would ideally want to charge users

51:42

for the added value and not for

51:44

just maintaining you

51:46

know, the Ethereum for like

51:48

running Ethereum if they're not transacting and like

51:51

basically covering our node and node costs.

51:53

So most of the services on web two, you

51:55

would pay premium only for the features that you

51:58

really want and not just like them

52:00

running some big AWS. So I

52:02

think the analogy here is similar.

52:05

So we are moving

52:08

we are releasing this premium kind of in a more

52:11

finalized state this next

52:14

month as well. So that would be

52:17

we'll see basically what our users are

52:20

interested in paying for like if we provide

52:22

them with premium,

52:24

can we provide them a few transactions in

52:26

months for free. But these are

52:28

all more of the economics questions

52:31

and we need to test how it really works.

52:33

Yeah, I'm more excited about

52:35

like basically,

52:38

if we if we have the chain, so users

52:40

are interested in paying for transactions, right? So

52:42

that's pretty much universal. And currently

52:44

all of that revenue goes towards the chains themselves.

52:47

And none of that goes to wallets. And this

52:50

is the pro so that I think that value

52:53

distribution have switch. So either

52:55

chains start sharing more with the originators

52:58

of transactions, or

53:01

yeah, chain or wallets become kind

53:03

of like more vertically integrated

53:06

with their own chains. I

53:08

think that would be that's

53:11

my prediction

53:13

for the future. Because this is an extreme

53:15

exists, the users are willing to pay a lot of

53:18

money for fees for settlement.

53:21

Yeah, absolutely. I think it is not on

53:23

the near term roadmap. But kind of where

53:25

would you see that in terms of like future

53:27

developments for Zaryon?

53:30

I don't think so we are very

53:32

agile still as the startup.

53:35

So first of all, you never

53:38

know. I think that that's a short answer. We

53:40

we are convening with basically

53:44

a portion of our team later

53:46

in October to talk about what

53:49

we should be focusing on really in 2024 as the

53:51

big priority. So for 2023, the goal was to build

53:53

the bullets

53:57

or the best word for web citizens. And

53:59

we are Almost

54:01

complete with that. So with the extension released,

54:03

that would be basically what

54:06

we wanted to achieve.

54:09

And yes, the next phase is a

54:11

little up in the year. So we'll look

54:14

we can talk about that probably early next

54:16

year.

54:17

Okay, cool.

54:18

And what else are you excited about in the ecosystem?

54:23

There are quite a lot of things actually. But honestly,

54:25

this whole app chain movement is what I'm really,

54:29

really interested in. It's

54:31

not that like we haven't known that already.

54:34

But with I

54:37

think we're getting we're opening

54:39

up an avenue with scalability,

54:41

we're opening up an avenue for more types

54:44

of applications that are feasible.

54:46

So I

54:47

think DeFi was only possible because

54:49

like, only DeFi was

54:51

possible because block space

54:53

was extremely expensive. So only financial

54:56

applications that run for whales

54:59

would work. But now

55:01

we can see for example, with friends tech,

55:04

or like even lens a little earlier

55:06

this year, that people are excited

55:08

about social use cases. For

55:11

example, with all the publish, like with

55:13

mirror or sound xyz, where artists

55:16

can directly connect with fans.

55:19

These are the use cases that are very new and

55:21

only were possible because of the layer two adoption

55:24

and kind of acceptance of layer two as

55:26

also a feasible avenue for settlement.

55:30

And I'm excited to see more

55:32

stuff that is very much web-trained native

55:35

that is built using the capabilities

55:37

of more scalable networks.

55:41

That's that would be like a short answer.

55:44

Fantastic. So where will users

55:48

learn whether Xyrian Chain will

55:50

be launched? Where can they follow

55:53

you? Is it on Twitter? Do you have a Discord?

55:57

We've been the router for a long time. We have actually over 100,000.

56:00

people on our Discord. So

56:03

yeah, whatever your preference is, Twitter,

56:05

you can type in Zirion or Discord

56:08

as well. I think

56:10

the ideal way is just to go ahead and try our wallet.

56:13

If you are still using MatterMask, Google

56:16

has it and Switch. We have

56:18

a bunch of people being

56:21

super happy about it. If you want to provide feedback,

56:23

you can ping me anywhere

56:26

on Twitter for example and I'll add you to the Better

56:29

Testers group so you can shape

56:32

the future of Zirion together with us.

56:35

Perfect.

56:36

Thank you Evgeny for joining us today.

56:39

Thank you very much. It was a pleasure.

56:43

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56:46

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56:48

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