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Are you earning and investing in the stock

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market? In real estate? How

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about in relationships? Are you earning

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and investing in your life?

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I'm Doc G, semi-retired hospice physician

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and host of the Earn & Invest podcast

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to fine podcasts. Welcome

0:30

to Los Angeles International Airport.

0:32

For your safety, please

0:34

keep your personal belongings with you at

0:36

all times.

0:38

Few business sectors have endured

0:40

harsher headwinds in recent years

0:43

than the airline industry.

0:45

Beginning in 2020, the COVID

0:47

pandemic virtually wiped

0:49

out air travel. Airports

0:51

stood empty, flight crews

0:53

and ground personnel were furloughed or laid

0:56

off, airplanes got mothballed.

1:00

But now people are flying again and

1:03

airlines are still scrambling to

1:05

get back to full speed. COVID

1:08

aside, it's never been easy

1:10

to run an airline. The industry

1:12

is complex and competitive

1:14

with huge operating costs and

1:17

relatively tight profit margins.

1:20

So it takes tremendous courage

1:23

to pilot an airline.

1:25

Hi everyone. Welcome to Deep Purpose, a

1:29

podcast about courage and commitment

1:31

in turbulent times. I'm

1:33

Ranjay Gulati, a professor

1:36

of business administration at the Harvard Business School. I'm

1:39

here to talk to you about how to be

1:41

a better business owner. I'm Ranjay Gulati,

1:44

a professor of business administration at

1:46

the Harvard Business School. I'm here to

1:48

talk to you about how to be a better business owner.

1:51

I'm Ranjay Gulati, a professor of

1:53

business administration at

1:55

the Harvard Business School. My guest this time is Ben Minnicucci,

1:59

of Alaska Airlines, the fifth

2:02

largest domestic airline in terms of

2:04

market share. Minikuchi is

2:06

the son of Italian parents who

2:09

immigrated to Canada after World War II. He

2:11

earned a master's degree in engineering from

2:14

Canada's Royal Military College and

2:17

served on a transportation squadron. Ben

2:20

first signed on with Alaska Airlines as

2:22

a staff vice president of maintenance. 17

2:25

years later he rose to become CEO

2:28

in 2021. I asked

2:30

Ben Minikuchi to tell me about the life

2:33

and work experiences that shaped

2:35

him as a leader. Where did

2:37

he get the courage to take the controls

2:39

of Alaska Airlines? Ben

2:42

says it came in large part from

2:44

his immigrant family. My

2:46

father never went to school. My father was illiterate

2:49

and my mom only went to fifth grade

2:52

in Italy. And I

2:54

think that has a lot to do with my

2:56

upbringing. So they immigrated in the 50s and even

2:59

after the war they were poor and

3:03

my dad had one uncle here and says hey if you want to work

3:05

there's work here and they came behind

3:07

that in Montreal and my dad

3:09

all he knew was hard work all his life. My mom

3:12

just knew a little bit she went to fifth grade. My

3:16

dad would always two brothers and

3:18

a sister and he would say you know

3:20

you got to go to school you know or you're going

3:22

to be like me working like a donkey

3:24

in the elements you know working with your

3:27

back and your hands all your life and he

3:29

was always like I want you to go to school he goes I want

3:31

you to go work in a suit when you get to work

3:33

and not like me getting up early and

3:36

working in the elements but for me that was very

3:38

a very big part

3:40

of my life seeing how hard my parents

3:43

worked to put their kids through school

3:45

and get them all educated and

3:48

for me it was I was driven

3:50

by that to say you know what I'm going to be the best I can

3:52

be and the best I can be for my

3:54

dad and I remember my dad when I got my master's

3:56

degree in engineering he didn't have a degree in engineering.

4:00

to say, but he goes, my son

4:02

is a master engineer. He called him master

4:05

engineer. For him, it was like, I'm illiterate

4:07

and I raised a son to be like

4:10

a master of engineering. It was

4:12

one of the things I'll always remember because he was so proud. That's

4:15

an amazing kind of starting moment in

4:17

your journey. Let's move forward.

4:19

You join the military and

4:22

then you're a maintenance engineer

4:25

in the military in the armed forces of Canada.

4:29

And then you move out of the armed forces

4:31

into civilian life and

4:33

work your way into leadership roles to the

4:35

point where you become one day chief

4:38

operating officer and then CEO

4:41

of Alaska Airlines. Are

4:43

there kind of pivotal moments in that

4:46

journey that shaped you

4:49

even as a person?

4:50

You know, I remember one

4:53

in particular when I was doing my master's degree

4:55

in engineering, it was, believe it or not, it was in robotics

4:58

and I had this brilliant thesis professor and

5:00

I actually hated it. I hated my thesis. It

5:02

was extremely difficult.

5:04

Robotics is extremely

5:07

complex engineering and mathematics,

5:09

but I was studying control systems,

5:11

how to control a robotic arm

5:14

and it's like controlling the cruise control in your

5:16

car or the heating in

5:18

your house. And

5:20

right when I was doing it, because when

5:22

I came out of the field in the military, I was leading big groups

5:25

of people, I was leading squadrons of maintenance people and

5:27

that's what I love. I love having big problems.

5:29

And here I am doing my master's degree because they said

5:31

that would be good for me and I'm hating it. I'm in this all

5:34

by myself and trying to

5:36

figure this stuff out. And then it hit me

5:38

when I was doing control systems engineering. I said,

5:41

I can apply this to organizations because

5:44

it's a feedback control loop. So you have

5:46

inputs and outputs and

5:48

you have to have a controller feedback that

5:51

takes it and continually drives it through

5:53

a process to get the output you want. So if you're

5:55

driving on the highway at 60 miles an hour, you put your cruise control,

5:57

if you hit a hill, your feedback

5:59

says I need more gas. I want to keep it at 60 instead

6:02

of just dropping down. And I said, I can

6:04

apply the same principles leading

6:07

an organization. And it was in that pivotal

6:09

moment that everything clicked for

6:11

me, right, to say I can change outcomes.

6:14

I can change outputs of an organization

6:16

by applying this theory that people don't have to know

6:18

it's control system theory, but

6:21

I'm actually doing it in my head and applying

6:23

the input and output theory.

6:25

Now one of the places you had to apply this was you

6:27

got the job to be the

6:30

station manager for Seattle,

6:32

which was the worst performing hub

6:34

for Alaska Airlines. And

6:38

did you apply a similar kind of control theory

6:41

to the general out of that? It

6:43

was exactly that. So Seattle, I

6:45

was probably two and a half years into

6:47

or three years into my

6:49

Alaska career and we

6:52

were suffering badly from operational

6:54

performance with Seattle as the worst station

6:56

and we were at an offsite and our CEO

6:59

was just furious and said we need to fix

7:01

it. And they said we need a leader and we need someone to

7:03

go fix it. And I raised my hand. I said, I'll go fix it because

7:06

even though I was there, I was watching it. The stuff was

7:08

rolling in my head. And I said, you

7:10

know, I would even when I would drive the ramp, I was working

7:12

maintenance. I would say that doesn't work.

7:14

That doesn't work. That doesn't work. We need a process

7:17

for that, a process for that. And in my head,

7:19

I was thinking about these things. And when they gave

7:21

it to me, they said, okay, give us a proposal. And

7:24

on the weekend, I gave them a proposal. I would fix Seattle.

7:27

On Monday, I had the job. And

7:30

in six months, a massive improvement. In 12

7:32

months, we had gone from worst to first

7:35

as an airline in the country. And then for the next

7:37

got to be 10 years, we were leading the industry in operational

7:40

performance. And because of that role,

7:43

my CEO back then gave me the role of chief operating

7:45

officer and was but it was

7:47

all playing that theory, but in

7:49

a way that people understand.

8:09

People are funny creatures.

8:12

We love stories about heroic agitators

8:15

who take on the status quo and shake

8:18

things up. We admire people

8:20

who kick over the apple cart, who challenge

8:23

stuffy old conventions. But

8:25

we're a lot less excited when it's our

8:28

apple cart or our conventions.

8:32

Ben Minakuchi says his new operational

8:34

system in Alaska's Seattle Hub sparked

8:37

a lot of initial resistance from employees.

8:40

I had tremendous pushback. If I didn't

8:42

have the support of my CEO, because

8:44

it was so massively different than what

8:47

we were doing, it was very process

8:49

orientated, it was timelines

8:52

and people had to do certain things at certain times. I

8:54

measured everything. I gave people scorecards.

8:56

I had metrics for everything. I

8:58

remember the first three months, I gave people Fs.

9:01

You get an F, you get an F, you get an F, you're

9:03

not following the process. Timelines

9:05

read, scorecards read.

9:08

People were super upset because I completely

9:11

undid how they were doing the operation.

9:13

But I was so focused and I had

9:15

the support. I said, it can't be worse than we

9:17

are. I know this thing works. It's going to work.

9:20

Then people slowly started coming

9:22

around and they knew I had the support of the CEO back

9:25

then. Then change started

9:27

happening so fast. It was something like we caught

9:29

fire. It was like, oh my God, okay, people

9:31

finally started to get. Now there was a lot of accountability.

9:34

I built expectations, measurement,

9:36

accountability, and I raised

9:38

the bar so high on people and they didn't want to

9:41

fail. It was just every day I was on it,

9:43

on it, on it, on it until the

9:45

habit formed into a behavior. We had

9:47

to go from creating a habit until it

9:49

became part of our behavior, part of our culture. What

9:52

is the general learning from that? As human beings,

9:54

we need to have clearly defined

9:56

processes with clearly defined

9:59

metrics and clearly defined rewards

10:01

is that the takeaway that

10:03

people, human beings, left to their own devices,

10:05

are not gonna land at the most efficient place. Sometimes

10:08

you have to provide that to them and then measure

10:10

and reward them around that. When there's

10:12

change that needs to happen, you have to push people

10:15

into an uncomfortable spot they've never been

10:17

in. And to do things that

10:20

it's kind of like writing with your left hand and they

10:22

don't want to do it. And it's uncomfortable, it's

10:24

hard, I want to go back to doing it like I used to

10:26

do it. And it's to have the

10:29

perseverance to push through that resistance,

10:33

map it off for them and establish

10:35

like, look, there's a reward at the end of this

10:37

if we get it. But I

10:40

just remember how hard it was for

10:42

me because I have to have the tenacity and

10:45

I had to be so resolute in my

10:47

mission to say, no, I am

10:50

gonna turn around the station, come hell or high water,

10:52

you're with me or you're not. And

10:54

tell me if you're not, because I'll go to someone

10:56

else. And I had the backing of the CEO

10:59

and when it turned, suddenly

11:03

people understood it and it went. And then

11:05

people came on board and today the

11:09

system is being used today. So the system has been in place now

11:11

for 15 years. It was an incredible

11:14

thing for me. One of the things I'll never ever forget. In 2009,

11:17

Alaska Airlines promoted Ben

11:21

Minikuchi

11:26

to

11:31

Chief Operating Officer. At

11:33

the time, Alaska urgently needed to

11:36

up its game. In 2013,

11:39

industry-tightened Delta Airlines launched

11:41

a massive incursion into the Seattle

11:43

market, Alaska's home turf.

11:47

In response, Alaska acquired

11:49

Virgin America, combining to

11:51

become the fifth largest airline in

11:53

the United States. To improve

11:56

Alaska's customer service and sharpen

11:58

its competitive edge. Minikuchi

12:00

and his team developed a new service

12:02

framework for Alaska's frontline operations.

12:05

Instead of keeping employees tied

12:07

to strict company policies, Alaska

12:10

empowered frontline workers to make decisions

12:12

that would create what the airline called

12:15

exceptional personal connections and

12:17

incredible journeys for customers.

12:21

It was a big evolution for Alaska

12:23

Airlines and for Ben Minikuchi.

12:26

So Ben you became a very, you said you were a very

12:29

regimented process guy.

12:31

Everything could be turned into a process

12:33

with metrics and rewards. But

12:36

once you were COO, after

12:38

a few years you suddenly came to realize

12:41

the limits of this kind of thinking.

12:43

That maybe there are downsides

12:45

to it or you can take it too far. What was

12:47

that, what was that transition for you?

12:49

Like what changed in you? What did

12:51

you see? How did you have to modify

12:54

your own thinking on this?

12:57

You know what I didn't like is

12:59

the unintended consequence

13:01

of fear. We were so good and so

13:03

regimented. Nobody wanted to be red on their scorecard.

13:06

Nobody wanted to have a

13:09

D or a C. Everyone wanted to be A, B

13:11

and green on their timeline. And I created

13:14

fear and said like, you know, Ben's not gonna like that, right?

13:17

And you know, your reputation grew

13:20

larger than life with employees. That, hey,

13:22

you know, Ben's on this stuff and

13:24

if you don't perform, it's not gonna be

13:26

good. And you realize that that was not

13:29

the place I wanted everyone to be. And that

13:31

I love working with people. I love

13:34

winning together with teams. And

13:36

I said, we're losing something here. And it was just

13:39

the light went on. I said, it's gone

13:41

too far and I have to bring it back a little

13:43

bit to realize that I want

13:45

people to use common sense inside

13:48

a framework of how we operate. I

13:50

wanted people to make sure that they are their own

13:52

individuals and they can use their own judgment

13:55

and tough situations to say, I'm

13:57

gonna miss that timeline element because I'm

14:00

trying to deal with this particular customer case

14:02

that I'm going to take care of. And I also

14:04

wanted them to see that it's not

14:07

just all about the numbers. There's a people side,

14:09

we're a company about people, we care about each

14:11

other, we care about customers. And so for

14:13

me, people still see me as the process,

14:16

metric focused guy who only cares

14:18

about numbers. I'm literally known as

14:20

the numbers guy, by a lot of

14:22

people in the operation, he's the numbers guy.

14:25

And even to this day, I'm like, that hurts a little bit

14:27

because I'm more than just numbers, because I care

14:30

about people so much, and that didn't come through through

14:32

all of that. So even today, I'm

14:34

working on the part where I

14:37

care about people, and because

14:39

of what I had to do in 2008 and nine to

14:41

turn on the operation, that legacy

14:44

of he's a numbers guy still lives with me

14:47

all this time. So did something change

14:49

in you, or did you have an experience or a

14:51

moment that suddenly made you realize, maybe I'm

14:53

too much of a numbers guy, and I need to kind of backpedal

14:56

this, did somebody give you feedback,

14:59

or were they kind of a moment

15:01

that made you realize that maybe I've tipped

15:03

too far in one direction?

15:05

You know, the one thing about running

15:08

a unionized workforce is they

15:10

give you really open feedback. They'll

15:13

say things like, you don't care about us, and

15:15

you only care about the bottom line, you only care

15:17

about numbers. And I did get that feedback

15:20

from frontline employees. And anyone

15:22

that's remembered that you remember, it was

15:24

flight attendants, pilots, mechanics, customer

15:27

service agents. And when I heard it, you

15:29

know, it hurt

15:31

because it wasn't true,

15:34

but I understand from their perspective, all they

15:36

saw was, you know, the leader

15:38

saying, this is the bar for performance, and

15:40

I expect it. And they can never

15:43

see the side in other venues

15:45

where I would advocate

15:48

for them, or I want to take care of them and

15:50

do everything I can to make it a good company

15:52

for them. So that's when

15:54

you realize as you get to the levels, I'm

15:57

at now that,

15:58

you know, you have to be really deliberate.

15:59

and thoughtful on

16:02

how you communicate and that those things

16:04

are important but culture and

16:07

your

16:08

how you care about people has to come

16:10

through and honestly it's this thing

16:12

I'm still working today because I know that it's

16:14

the reputation I have and reputations are tough

16:18

you know to undo and and the new people

16:20

they get to know me they say well they didn't know the

16:22

old man they're like gosh I don't really he was

16:24

like that cuz he every time I talk

16:26

with him he's nothing like it oh you didn't know the old man

16:29

the old man was like this right and people actually

16:31

people who know me close that you have changed

16:34

you have moved they say you know you you

16:36

can

16:37

move your leadership style if you're self-aware

16:39

enough and put

16:41

in the work because they've seen me do it and they

16:43

actually the one of the big

16:45

differences they said I saw a big difference after

16:47

you came back from EMP hey

16:50

it's Adam Grant the new season of my Ted

16:52

podcast work life is out now the

16:55

past few years have been full of changes to how

16:57

we work there's so much more we can

16:59

rethink about our jobs join

17:01

me as I dive into the science of making work

17:04

not suck this season

17:06

we'll explore how to fix your meetings bus

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bureaucracy and make the most out of your

17:10

breaks and vacations listen

17:12

to work life with Adam Grant wherever you listen to podcasts

17:18

hi there it's Ranjay are

17:21

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17:23

practical business education all while

17:25

providing real-world examples then

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you should check out the chart topping podcast

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18:44

In 2021, Ben Minikuchi

18:46

was named CEO of Alaska Air Group,

18:49

the parent company of Alaska Airlines and

18:51

Horizon Air. All

18:53

together, they fly more than 45 million

18:57

people a year to destinations across

18:59

the United States and Canada, as well

19:01

as Mexico and Costa Rica. So

19:04

Ben, what have you learned about communicating? You

19:06

call it caring leadership. How

19:09

do you communicate caring while

19:11

also holding people accountable? Because

19:14

caring can be perceived as weakness, softness,

19:18

tolerance of mediocrity. How

19:21

do you carry those two ideas

19:24

at the same time and communicate those effectively?

19:27

The biggest thing I've

19:29

learned on that, when the numbers

19:32

aren't there,

19:34

I never try and criticize the person.

19:38

I try and criticize the numbers

19:40

or the output to say

19:43

if revenue is not there or if on-time performance

19:45

is not there or if engagement

19:48

numbers are not there. I am hard

19:50

on the numbers and then with the person

19:52

and say, look, it's not being hard

19:55

on the person, being hard on the numbers, which they could

19:57

be responsible for and saying, you

19:59

know.

20:00

This is not good enough and having

20:02

candor around the performance and not

20:04

so much being critical like you're not doing this

20:06

and you're doing That we can talk about things that

20:08

they could do better But that's

20:11

one of the things I'm really really aware

20:13

of is not to attack the person but

20:15

to focus on the

20:17

numbers which I felt me in terms of

20:20

communicating caring I you know what

20:22

I'm really aware of

20:25

How I start conversations.

20:27

I always thank people Acknowledge

20:30

the successes and then balance

20:32

it with things that need to get better

20:35

Never to forget never just to go in and say

20:38

let's focus on things in our going well to say look We've had

20:40

some successes here And I want to talk about some of

20:42

those that have been going really really well things

20:44

that I wouldn't do in the past I normally go as an

20:47

engineer. I'm like good good good good. Yes.

20:49

Yes. Yes bad I want to talk about this and I

20:51

want to talk about this now some Learn because

20:53

people need to feel like hey I've done

20:55

all this works not all of its bad and and

20:58

I've learned more to do some of that

21:00

So then your CEO now yeah for a

21:02

couple of years We all

21:04

talk about see you a lonely job. It's really

21:06

hard job You got to navigate

21:08

make trade-offs and choices you got

21:10

a piece a lot of stakeholders at the same

21:13

time It's gotten tougher the

21:15

turnover of CEOs has gone up like crazy

21:18

What have been some of the hardest things you've had

21:21

to learn to do? Now

21:23

that you are CEO not

21:25

just CEO you

21:27

know the hardest things like

21:28

in Covid it was really really

21:31

difficult because just as The

21:34

country was divided on so many issues about

21:37

Covid whether it was Vaccines

21:40

mandating vaccines not many mandating

21:42

vaccines Whatever

21:44

the social issues was we were

21:47

having the same microcosm in Alaska

21:49

and

21:49

and

21:51

One of the things was how do you navigate

21:54

these very?

21:55

Tricky decisions like do you

21:57

mandate vaccines or not in a certain point?

21:59

You know, some companies were doing it, other companies weren't.

22:02

What was going to be Alaska's policy? And as

22:05

much as I got my leaders in the room, they were divided.

22:08

My leaders were all in, you know, some said we should,

22:10

some said we shouldn't. And

22:12

at the end, I realized, like on

22:14

these critical decisions, whether it's on vaccines or any

22:17

social issues that are out there, whether it was, you

22:19

know, the times where we had black lives matter issues,

22:21

I realized that my voice in the end

22:23

wasn't going to count on these critical

22:26

issues that were out there and people wanted

22:28

to hear from me. So I had to learn to say, okay, I'm going

22:30

to take all this input

22:32

from folks, separate

22:34

almost a little bit

22:35

what I thought, right,

22:37

and get as much information and

22:40

then bring everything together and make a decision

22:42

that I thought would be

22:44

best for the company or people, customers,

22:47

because customers were

22:49

equally impacted. The best thing for

22:51

the company. It's the hardest thing right now. It's

22:54

one of the things I worry about the most is, you know, with

22:56

everything that's going on around the world

22:58

is companies now are

23:00

stepping up and having a bigger

23:03

voice on social issues

23:05

in the country. And one of the things is

23:07

when do you bring your voice in on

23:10

something that's impactful and when

23:12

to do it and how to do it? So who

23:14

have been some leaders who really inspired

23:16

you in this journey, whether

23:18

you work for them or met them or read

23:20

about them, who've really been inspiring

23:23

to you through this kind of awkward

23:25

you've been on? You know, one, I just

23:27

said like, like my dad, I just

23:30

think of my dad, like my dad never

23:32

went to school, not

23:35

educated. My dad was simple, right? He

23:37

knew how to work hard. He knew he

23:39

had to make money to pay for everything

23:42

and look after his kids. But he was

23:45

focused, like he was

23:47

focused on getting that job done.

23:50

And what I learned from my dad is this,

23:54

maybe that's where I get it from, this driving

23:56

force to get something done

23:58

to, you know, very.

23:59

go orientated and

24:02

to not give up and my dad never gave

24:04

up. He, you know, again, you couldn't

24:06

have dealt the worst hand

24:08

and he did and still be a successful.

24:10

So that's one. I, you know, when any particular

24:13

moments that come to mind and in a

24:15

particular day or a conversation

24:18

or observed him doing something that

24:20

stands out in your memory? Well

24:22

one, I always remember as a little kid how

24:25

early he got up to go to work because he would smoke.

24:29

So he would go to the bathroom and the bathroom was beside

24:31

our bedroom where two of us, we all slept in the same room.

24:33

And

24:34

I would smell the players coming through, you know,

24:37

like 4.30 in the morning into my bedroom every

24:40

morning. Well that question, that's what

24:42

I smelled every morning. It was almost comforting, right? I would smell

24:44

the smoke probably not good for me, but or us,

24:46

but but I would smell that and to me it was that

24:48

every morning you'd get up and that's what you it

24:50

was like a discipline that

24:53

always amazed me like and he did it for decades.

24:57

You know another moment when I saw he

25:00

tried to start a business with with a

25:02

family relative and it failed and I

25:04

saw this stress and toll he took and

25:06

you know, he had to you know, go back

25:09

to his old employer ask for his job back so that

25:11

he can, you know, take care of his family and

25:13

I saw like how hard that was on him

25:15

because it was a very prideful moment

25:18

in his life that that's one thing didn't succeed

25:20

and he had to go back and but

25:22

he did it because he needed to take care

25:24

of his family. So to me those were impactful

25:27

things for me that things you have to do to sacrifice and

25:29

then I had a great leader at Air Canada who

25:31

passed away actually only this past year who

25:33

was one

25:35

of the most amazing leaders I worked for and

25:38

what he taught me was just you

25:41

know the ability to he was all about listening

25:44

to people and he was so calm and I

25:46

always admired how we would stay calm Listen

25:49

ask for other opinions and I always try

25:51

to emulate today I try and think about that

25:53

to say in your position today. Listen

25:56

first. Don't talk. So as a CEO right now

25:58

I don't talk. I'm not the first want

26:00

to talk when I get into a room because I know if

26:02

I talk and say, hey, I got a great idea. Everyone's

26:04

going to stop. So I think back to Oliver and he

26:07

would never talk first. He let every other

26:09

person talk and make sure they were

26:11

able to express themselves before I spoke. And I

26:14

think that's another huge lesson I learned from

26:16

him.

26:31

Let's

26:37

switch to the topic of courage.

26:40

And you know, courage is a subject we don't talk

26:43

often about in leadership.

26:45

We talk about it in the military and

26:48

courage is often described

26:51

as taking action in the face of fear. So

26:55

could you maybe tell us about in your life

26:57

trajectory, were there any moments

26:59

where you actually experienced fear,

27:03

but you still had to do something?

27:06

I have a couple military examples and I'll

27:08

start with but even COVID would be another one.

27:10

There's another one. Yeah. Well, let me do one military one.

27:12

Well, when I was in the military, because I was

27:14

in the field, I was classified as having C-130 experience.

27:17

We had a C-130 go down, crashed

27:21

up near the North Pole. And I

27:23

remember getting a call at night and saying,

27:25

hey, C-130, this tail number went down

27:27

and the airplane is probably

27:29

in pieces somewhere in the North Pole, literally in

27:32

the North, near the North Pole. You're

27:34

the lead technical investigator and you're leaving

27:36

on a challenger in the morning. Some technicians

27:38

out of Edmonton will meet you. Getting that

27:40

call petrified me because I had no idea

27:43

what to do. Right. And I was never so

27:45

scared in my whole life because I was meeting a crew

27:47

that I hadn't worked with. I had to come

27:49

up with, how are we going to do this? And

27:51

I was just absolutely petrified.

27:53

But, you know, there's nothing like fear

27:56

to have you really focus on getting

27:59

it done. And we got

27:59

it done, but it was probably one of the most fearful

28:02

experiences that I had gone through just

28:04

thinking about it, getting there, seeing it, doing

28:07

it, getting it done was...

28:09

So what kept you going? Did you... was it

28:12

the fact that there was a job you had to do, you could

28:14

not do it, and bosses told you, did you do it

28:16

because you were told or do you

28:18

think there was comfort in numbers that

28:20

the people you were with seemed to have confidence

28:23

and they gave you over this

28:25

some standard operating procedure? You said, listen,

28:27

got to go back to my training, this

28:29

is what I trained to do. I

28:32

think it was a little bit all of that, but it was also

28:34

the,

28:35

you know, a little bit how

28:38

I was raised, you know, like you get shit

28:41

done, you know, and no matter how scared you

28:43

are, and again, like, it could be my father

28:45

coming to a foreign country, that language of, hey, you got to

28:47

provide you... these are the cards you're

28:49

dealt and you're going to have to make it work.

28:52

You figure out a way to make it work. And

28:54

what kicks into me is even when in

28:56

the face of something I don't know

28:58

is you're going to have to figure out

29:01

a way to make it work. And so with COVID,

29:03

it was kind of the same thing as I, again,

29:06

talking about fear, the first employee

29:08

webcast 12,000 people were on or

29:10

something close to that

29:12

and getting on and just tell them what happened

29:15

in COVID, your sales overnight, 90%

29:17

of our revenues got wiped away.

29:20

And you're burning how much money? $15 million

29:22

a day, $400 million a month. And

29:25

it was just excessive cash burn. And,

29:28

you know, we're running out of cash. You know, we haven't got

29:30

the federal aid yet. And

29:32

it was just crisis. And you're talking

29:34

to employees. And

29:36

I just remember feeling this overwhelming,

29:39

like, just sick to my stomach

29:41

because I knew I had to show strength

29:44

and courage to give them optimism,

29:46

tell them the truth about how bad things were, but

29:48

also give them, inspire them that things

29:51

will get better. And I had to get myself in

29:53

there to say, look, and I'm staring at a camera because

29:56

of course it's COVID and people are watching. I

30:00

was hoping the camera couldn't catch my,

30:02

just my anxiety and my nervousness, but that

30:04

was probably one of the places that I

30:07

remember being really fearful,

30:09

but I knew that people were depending

30:11

on me, that I needed to show strength, courage,

30:15

resolve, and I knew I had to tell

30:17

them how bad it was, but

30:19

that we were gonna get through it, and

30:21

that I was gonna make sure we got through it, and

30:24

we were gonna work tirelessly every

30:26

day to make sure that we'd look after

30:28

them, and that this company was gonna make it to

30:30

the other side. So what gave you that courage?

30:33

What did you have to say to yourself? Like in

30:35

that moment, you're feeling petrified. You

30:37

don't really have a game playbook. There's no playbook,

30:40

really, of what you're gonna do. You don't know if you're gonna get

30:42

federal aid. You got four months of cash.

30:44

You're hustling to come up with a plan, but

30:47

really, there's no playbook here. You're gonna make one

30:49

up.

30:50

Now, what gave you the kind of

30:52

the moral or physical sense that

30:56

this too shall pass? I

30:59

gotta get us through this, and I gotta show

31:02

confidence and resolve

31:04

to these people while I'm not feeling it myself,

31:07

right? So I gotta fake it a bit also. How

31:09

did you talk, what did you say

31:11

to yourself? It's probably

31:14

in my history, my training. I've

31:16

been in leadership roles since I joined the

31:19

academy at 17 years old, right? You're always put

31:21

in stressful situations, and we've

31:23

got put in leadership roles at an early age. And

31:28

I know that in a role as a leader, your

31:30

job is to take care of your people in

31:32

crisis. Whether it's a military

31:34

environment, or whether it's a business

31:37

environment, your job, ultimately, in crisis,

31:40

is to look after your people and the company.

31:42

And I knew that was my number one job, is

31:44

I gotta look after my people, my employees, the

31:47

company, and that they're looking at,

31:49

to me, for direction, confidence,

31:52

the truth. And that's what I told them,

31:54

I said, they're looking at you, how you come across,

31:57

how you communicate, how you talk about.

32:00

the present and

32:02

how we're going forward is going to make all the difference.

32:04

I told him, I said, remember you're talking because over 20,000 people

32:06

are going to watch this and

32:09

so you need to be at your best. That's

32:11

what I told myself is you need to use everything

32:14

I learned in the past from whatever I

32:16

have to draw from but I needed to

32:18

be at my best for my people and for

32:20

my company.

32:42

Any courage heroes come to

32:44

mind? Any kind of people you've encountered

32:46

who really you've seen others exhibit

32:49

courage really in the face of dire

32:51

circumstances?

32:53

I'm sure there are. Now you're catching

32:55

me flat-footed here and I have to

32:58

think a little bit. Even ones you've read about that inspire

33:01

you say you know that one even

33:03

if I read about it you know the thought of how

33:05

this person did what they did. I'm

33:07

reading a book right now in Patagonia about

33:10

how they started the company and what

33:12

I'm really impressed with is their

33:15

leader and having

33:17

again the courage

33:20

to their mission and their purpose and

33:22

not waver from it and

33:24

I read it as inspiration for me because

33:27

they're less driven by profit and

33:29

they're driven by doing good you know producing

33:32

great products and be great

33:34

to the climate, great to the environment and

33:37

to do it sustainably and they

33:39

are so committed to that

33:42

purpose. I use it as a source of

33:44

inspiration and the role I'm in now is is

33:47

is there something that would actually take me off what

33:50

I believe is true, take me off the

33:52

path and what would you know

33:54

could I stay really true on these tracks

33:56

that I believe in today with is there anything

33:59

that can knock me off And I read that story and nothing

34:01

can knock them off of that, no matter how bad things

34:03

got. And so for that, I respect

34:06

that courage to the mission and the

34:08

purpose. On that note, can you speak to commitment?

34:11

What is the mission and purpose of Alaska Airlines

34:13

and how do you plan to

34:16

kind of stay

34:17

to that purpose? We

34:21

have an incredible history of

34:23

growth and performance. But what

34:25

I realize is our

34:28

company is rooted

34:30

in a culture of

34:33

care and rooted

34:35

in our values. And

34:37

that this culture of care

34:40

is a place of differentiation

34:44

in our industry. And it's something that

34:46

is perishable, and if I don't focus

34:48

on it as a leader, because it can easily go

34:50

away as you hire thousands of people over the years.

34:53

So for me, my mission really is

34:56

to ensure that this culture

34:58

of care grounded in our values

35:01

stays true during my time and

35:04

will be an enabler to continued

35:07

financial and operational success but also

35:09

an enabler to growth because we can

35:11

carve our brains and carve a niche in

35:14

this industry. So that's

35:16

what I hope for.

35:19

If I was to poll your

35:21

subordinates

35:23

and I ask them, give me a word to describe

35:25

them. What

35:30

do you think is the word you would hope they would

35:32

use to describe you? Two or three. What

35:35

words do you hope they would say, that's

35:37

them? You described yourself as a numbers

35:39

guy earlier. What are the

35:41

words you hope they would be saying instead

35:43

of the numbers guy?

35:46

I'm going to go back a couple things. One,

35:49

I hope they would say a very balanced

35:51

leader, a

35:53

very caring leader, I hope is what

35:56

they would say. Because at the end of

35:58

the day... What

36:01

I hope to do is take care of

36:03

everyone who depends on Alaska. Our

36:05

people, our customers, the communities, our owners.

36:09

And I want to do all those things well, but it's

36:12

not just about the numbers anymore. And I want people

36:14

to say, you know what? He has changed

36:17

over the years. This is a different leader

36:19

than when he was in the military,

36:21

than when he just started a business. And

36:24

he's evolved his leadership style

36:26

over the years where now he's created something

36:28

that's sustainable, that's balanced, and

36:31

he truly cares about

36:33

people, about the company, and

36:35

so many different ways of doing things.

36:54

Then you came into the show. You

36:56

have transformed the Seattle base. You

36:58

become COO. And in

37:00

the time that you've been at Alaska,

37:03

it's been phenomenally successful on

37:05

all financial metrics, right? You

37:07

know, you're driving profit, you're

37:09

driving top-lying growth, you've

37:12

taken costs down, becoming one

37:14

of the most efficient airlines in the airline industry.

37:17

JD Power's customer's ad score

37:19

number one. I mean, it's an extraordinary

37:22

story in terms of financial

37:25

performance and success. And you've brought

37:27

them through COVID successfully, you know,

37:30

one day when you leave this job. What

37:33

do you want your legacy to be? Like,

37:35

what do you want people to remember

37:38

you by? That, yes, Ben was

37:40

CEO once.

37:42

I hope that my fingerprints on

37:44

different parts of the company remain

37:48

for a long time, that you can't erase these fingerprints.

37:51

The

37:53

absolute focus on safety

37:55

and operational excellence by being process-driven

37:57

and metric-driven will always stay there.

37:59

That's something that says, you know what, that

38:02

was Ben's baby and that

38:06

is something we're going to continue to do forever. I

38:09

hope that when my lap around

38:11

the track is done, one of the big goals I had

38:13

was to be a national brand. I

38:17

said that when I started the

38:19

role. Right now, a lot of people,

38:22

when they think about Alaska, they think about this regional

38:25

airline that maybe flies only

38:27

in the state of Alaska. I

38:29

hope that when I'm done, and we say Alaska

38:34

in

38:35

the United States, that every

38:38

person living in America will

38:40

say, oh, that's the airline

38:42

that's headquartered in Seattle. Maybe

38:46

West Coast based, but they fly everywhere and they're a phenomenal

38:48

airline. They operate well. They

38:51

care about their people. They care about

38:53

their customers. They have such a great, they're

38:55

this great little boutique airline that

38:58

if I have a chance, I am going to fly them. This

39:00

notion of us being a national brand, that everyone knows

39:02

who we are and what we do would

39:05

be the lasting

39:07

fingerprint that I would want.

39:08

What do you hope that your father looking

39:11

at you, who once described you as the master

39:13

engineer, what do you hope he

39:15

would describe you as?

39:18

I think he would, in

39:20

his words, he would say, my God, I can't believe he's

39:23

my son. My Italian little

39:25

son became the CEO

39:28

of a Fortune 500 company. I

39:30

don't know how he'd call it in his words, but I

39:33

think he'd be incredibly proud.

39:40

That's Ben Minokuchi, the Chief

39:42

Executive Officer of Alaska Airlines, based

39:45

in Seattle. For more

39:47

of my conversations with leaders in the business

39:50

world navigating the 21st century

39:52

business environment, visit my

39:54

deeppurpose.net website.

39:57

While you're there, you can also find out about my

39:59

book. titled Deep Purpose. Companies

40:02

that are serious about establishing and working

40:04

towards a Deep Purpose find

40:06

that it delivers game-changing results

40:08

for the workers, shareholders

40:11

and larger society. So visit

40:13

me at DeepPurpose.net. This

40:16

podcast is produced by David Shen

40:19

and Stephen Smith with help from

40:21

Jen Daniels and Craig McDonald. The

40:24

theme music is by Gary Meister. I'm

40:27

Ranjay Gulati. Thanks for listening.