In this episode of Complex Systems, Patrick McKenzie (aka @Patio11) is joined by Dave Guarino, a software engineer and policy wonk. They explore the complexities and challenges of public programs, focusing on SNAP aka CalFresh in California, where Dave was the founding engineer and then director. They discuss how society’s complex preferences become policy, driving obviously bad UXes (like 200+ questions for an application) for structural reasons. Patrick and Dave debate structural issues within government agencies that lead to these inefficiencies, the lack of user-centric design, misaligned incentives, a “cavernous gap” in feedback loops, and surprisingly simple ways anyone can influence public policy and improve government systems.

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Full transcript available here: https://www.complexsystemspodcast.com/episodes/government-software-dave-guarino/

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Sponsors: Check | WorkOS

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Links:

Dave Guarino's newsletter: https://daveguarino.substack.com/

Dan Davies episode of Complex Systems: https://open.spotify.com/show/3Mos4VE3figVXleHDqfXOH

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Twitter:

@patio11

@allafarce

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Timestamps:

(00:00) Intro

(01:03) Complexity of naming government programs

(03:45) How policy decisions are made

(07:19) Why SNAP applications are so complex

(14:17) Why no one stops overly complex applications

(18:44) Political economy of different benefit programs

(24:56) Sponsor: Check | WorkOS

(26:13) Limited visibility into user experience

(29:24) Lack of application completion rate tracking

(35:27) Starting where you are

(43:44) Challenges of modernizing legacy systems

(48:35) Broken feedback loops in government

(53:01) Tech's understanding of service design

(57:07) Issues with improper payments methodology

(1:04:45) Effective ways to influence policy

(1:09:43) Increasing agency in government agencies

(1:14:56) Getting niche policy ideas into circulation

(1:18:04) Importance of frontline knowledge and user feedback

(1:21:33) Improving government services

(1:22:06) Wrap

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Complex Systems is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Turpentine also has a social network for top founders and execs: https://www.turpentinenetwork.com/