0:00

It was 2005 2006 when I

0:00

got a call from Eddie Q, who was

0:06

pretty big man on campus there

0:06

now. Yeah. And he said that you

0:10

want to meet with Steve Jobs

0:10

like, Huh. So I went he was at

0:15

d3, the d3 conference. I went

0:15

had an hour just him and me. It

0:19

was really incredible. He was

0:19

very personable, of course, he

0:21

wanted something from me. He

0:21

wanted me to to bless podcasting

0:25

in iTunes, which he asked me I

0:25

said, Yeah, absolutely. In fact,

0:28

I'll give you the directory that

0:28

we have to get it started. And

0:31

that day, he announced

0:31

podcasting and iTunes.

0:38

Welcome back to Buzzcast.

0:38

I'm Kevin today. I've got Tom

0:41

with me. Travis is helping us on

0:41

the producer. And and we've got

0:44

a very special guest today. It

0:44

is Adam curry, the pod father of

0:47

podcasting. Thank you so much for joining us, Adam.

0:50

It's a great pleasure. And

0:50

I was actually very excited. I

0:54

had not seen the podcast you

0:54

guys do? I did see it. Where

0:59

does it show up? It showed up

0:59

somewhere like, okay, they got

1:02

they do a podcast for the

1:02

customers. That's kind of cool.

1:04

So I did see it, but I hadn't I

1:04

hadn't actually checked into it

1:07

yet.

1:07

Yeah, we use it for a lot

1:07

of example stuff. So you'll see

1:11

as we're adopting new tags and

1:11

stuff and working with the

1:13

podcast index, kind of the first

1:13

feed that we always hit stuff on

1:16

is this one. Which, you know,

1:16

for better or worse, sometimes

1:20

we mess up our stuff. But

1:22

I know the ceiling Believe

1:22

me, I know the ceiling. I've met

1:26

plenty of feed. Yeah.

1:28

So a lot of people who

1:28

listen to our show, and a lot of

1:31

people who are Buzzsprout

1:31

customers love podcasting, but

1:34

they're relatively new to it. So

1:34

they don't necessarily know the

1:37

whole 25 is it been 25 years or

1:37

20 years history? I don't even

1:41

know what 13 years 15 year

1:41

history of podcasting. And so

1:48

I'm sure you've told the story a

1:48

million times. But would you

1:51

mind telling it again, maybe the

1:51

the high level overview version

1:56

of the history of podcasting,

1:56

how did you get started, how did

1:58

this whole space come to into

1:58

existence?

2:01

Okay, I was living in

2:01

Amsterdam, I grew up in

2:05

Amsterdam, the Netherlands, and

2:05

then moved to a move back to the

2:09

States, I'm American, moved back

2:09

to the States, and eventually

2:12

wound up doing MTV etc. And then

2:12

I started, one of the first

2:17

internet advertising companies

2:17

called thinking was on ramp. And

2:21

then we took it public, and it

2:21

was thinking new ideas. And

2:24

after a couple year run on that,

2:24

it was time for me to leave, I

2:28

was just sitting around in suits

2:28

all day. And that was fun to

2:31

take a company public, that was

2:31

really a lot of fun. But I was

2:34

kind of like, Okay, I got to

2:34

find something else to do. And

2:38

so, my daughter been born in New

2:38

Jersey, and my wife was my wife

2:41

at the time was from the

2:41

Netherlands. So we decided to

2:45

move back and see what was going

2:45

on. And in the Netherlands, you

2:48

know, they are one of the first

2:48

countries to really have cable

2:52

to every single household for

2:52

cable television. So they were a

2:55

testbed for a lot of media

2:55

experiments. And because they

2:58

had this infrastructure, they

2:58

got cable modems very early on.

3:01

So in 99, everyone kind of had a

3:01

cable modem. And this was a

3:06

revolution because we had always

3:06

on internet, not that it was

3:10

fast. No, no, but you didn't

3:10

have to dial up. So no more. For

3:14

anyone who remembers that. You'd

3:14

have to dial up it was always on

3:17

but it was slow. And there was

3:17

really no the computers were

3:20

kind of ready for a multimedia

3:20

type experience. But the

3:23

bandwidth wasn't there. So we

3:23

had real audio and real video

3:27

and you know, nothing was really

3:27

great. And certainly if you hit

3:29

an mp3 or a quick time, then you

3:29

know, you do click on it, you

3:33

wait 10 minutes, and then you

3:33

you know, make a cup of coffee,

3:37

come back. Okay, it's done play

3:37

it. So I thought why not have

3:41

some kind of system and this

3:41

isn't 2001 it has some kind of

3:45

system that knows what I'm

3:45

looking for when it sees

3:48

something new then downloads it

3:48

but doesn't tell me until it's

3:52

there. So then you just kind of

3:52

removing that, that wait time

3:55

you just shifting it away to

3:55

some other space that you know

3:58

what I don't know, I can't hurt

3:58

me, I guess. And I had this idea

4:01

was walking around with a call

4:01

the last yard I wrote a piece on

4:05

a blog post on it. And at the

4:05

time, Dave Weiner was really

4:10

building out RSS. He had Radio

4:10

userland, which is a kind of a

4:14

cool app that worked as a server

4:14

on your on your lap on your

4:17

local computer. See the

4:17

interface was done completely

4:20

through a web browser, just

4:20

talking to the local server. And

4:25

it was a blogging tool. And one

4:25

of the first I think are the

4:28

earliest blogging tools. And it

4:28

also had an RSS aggregator in

4:31

it. And Funny enough, it was

4:31

called radio user land, which is

4:35

like okay, so I had my I've been

4:35

a radio guy all my life. So I

4:38

kind of had that radio idea. And

4:38

I thought, you know, wouldn't it

4:42

be cool if just like with what

4:42

RSS does where it kept, you

4:45

know, captures kind of the

4:45

stories you go back and read

4:47

them later. If we could put an

4:47

attachment, a file attachment

4:51

that would download and then it

4:51

will be ready for playing. And I

4:54

and I actually went to New York

4:54

and met with Dave and he I think

4:58

he had the first meeting. He was

4:58

like a VGA guy or whatever. But

5:04

I was pretty persistent, came

5:04

back the next day and showed him

5:06

in his software, my idea. And he

5:06

ultimately said, Okay, I'll

5:12

implement this. But under one

5:12

condition, you never ever use my

5:16

software again, because that was

5:16

horrible what you showed me So

5:19

okay, that's fine. That's good.

5:19

And the, the enclosure element

5:24

of RSS was born. And this kind

5:24

of meandered along, we were

5:28

using it between each other

5:28

sending 100 megabyte file, which

5:31

at the time was crazy big. And

5:31

then you know, the next morning,

5:35

I'd wake up because I was still

5:35

you know, to timezone. And oh,

5:38

there's a can play and I played

5:38

the video and it was okay, but

5:41

it didn't really catch any

5:41

traction for

5:44

it. It solved a problem that

5:44

wasn't quite there yet. But I

5:47

didn't know was there until I

5:47

saw my first iPod. And that's

5:50

when I went off radio. Because

5:50

the first iPod was that white

5:54

thing with the dial. It looks so

5:54

much like the Sony transistor

5:58

radio my grandmother gave me

5:58

when I was a kid, which I

6:01

listened to the basketball games

6:01

under my pillow. When I was six

6:04

or seven years old. Yeah, just

6:04

it was it right. Now, it's not a

6:08

jukebox, that's a radio receiver

6:08

and I then I put the two pieces

6:11

together. I said, Well, why

6:11

don't we find an mp3 file that's

6:18

attached to an RSS feed, and

6:18

then take that out, download it,

6:22

and actually built this an apple

6:22

script, which is take someone

6:25

who's really a developer and

6:25

take Apple script, you got like,

6:29

you know, you got like a mess on

6:29

your hands. But I was able to

6:31

make it work. And so it would

6:31

look for one fee, look for a new

6:35

enclosure, download it to the to

6:35

iTunes at the time, because you

6:40

still had to sync your your

6:40

iPod, it would trigger the sync

6:43

and then you pick it up and

6:43

you'd be right there, I would

6:45

say a playlist was created. That

6:45

was the name of the show. And

6:49

then the episode. And podcasting

6:49

was born. And I immediately

6:53

started doing a show called The

6:53

Daily source code, because I

6:56

knew that we needed radios, we

6:56

needed radios on the other side,

7:01

which really, today is become

7:01

the podcast app that you use to

7:06

listen to shows, very analogous

7:06

to what we're doing now. I would

7:09

talk about the developers who

7:09

are working on these pod

7:12

catchers, as we call them. And

7:12

we learned a lot of things. And

7:15

it's just crazy stuff. You know,

7:15

when you have a very minimal

7:19

modem connection, and you

7:19

subscribe to feed and starts to

7:21

download 50 episodes of

7:21

something, this is not a good.

7:25

So these are all things that we

7:25

learned in the very early days.

7:27

And it kind of kind of grew. And

7:27

then there was, yeah, it was

7:30

just like a wave of of stuff

7:30

start to happen, I think was the

7:34

BBC came to interview me. And

7:34

then it was off to the races and

7:38

everyone was calling. I was

7:38

like, Oh, what is going on here?

7:40

And it was 2006 I think

7:40

2005 2006 when I got a call from

7:49

Steve Jobs, and he said, Well,

7:49

actually was Eddie Q. Who was

7:52

pretty big man on campus there

7:52

now. Yeah. And he said that you

7:56

want to meet with Steve Jobs

7:56

like, Huh. So I went he was at

8:04

d3, the d3 conference. I went

8:04

had an hour just him and me. It

8:07

was really incredible. He was

8:07

very personable, of course, he

8:10

wanted something from me, he

8:10

wanted me to to bless podcasting

8:13

in iTunes, which he asked me I

8:13

said, Yeah, absolutely. In fact,

8:16

I'll give you the directory that

8:16

we have to get it started. And

8:20

that day he announced podcasting

8:20

in in iTunes is pretty funny

8:25

video, because, you know, he

8:25

plays a stick piece of my show

8:27

where I'm ragging on my Mac. And

8:27

so he knew exactly what he was

8:30

doing. Total show guy.

8:32

So you had a directory of

8:32

podcasts before apple?

8:36

Yeah, it was called iPod

8:36

or.org for a whole bunch of

8:39

reasons. And it was really a it

8:39

was kind of a fun way of doing

8:43

it. It was a distributed

8:43

directory based on opml. So you

8:46

know how you can have feeds in

8:46

an opml file. So we use the

8:50

include tag, so I had like the

8:50

top level, and did it by

8:53

geography. And you clicked on

8:53

Europe, and then it would open

8:56

up and there would be, you know,

8:56

the Netherlands, Belgium,

8:59

Germany, and we had different

8:59

people in each country

9:01

maintaining what podcast they

9:01

were finding what was out there.

9:04

So overnight, I could have my,

9:04

my software, walk this tree and

9:09

say, oh, pop, here's new stuff

9:09

that we found from somewhere all

9:12

over the world. Granted, when

9:12

Apple launched, the directory

9:17

was disappointing because it

9:17

highlighted NPR, PBS net and I

9:22

will say, Tony Khan, W GBH in

9:22

Boston. I mean, he was early

9:27

early on, he was a big believer,

9:27

he dragged NPR into podcasting

9:32

by the scruff of their neck. And

9:32

it was good programming of

9:35

course, but it wasn't quite the,

9:35

the free feel and people

9:39

experimenting that we've seen in

9:39

these podcasts that you know, we

9:43

didn't have any of this

9:43

equipment. We didn't have cool

9:45

things to connect to each other.

9:45

We We barely had Skype, I think

9:50

just yet it was just about has

9:50

Skype, maybe not even

9:54

Was there any resistance

9:54

from the old media, like radio

9:58

or anybody else did they did

9:58

they? see this as a as a threat?

10:01

Or did they just see it as a

10:01

side project is something

10:04

totally irrelevant to what they were doing,

10:06

you know, very similar to

10:06

when I was at MTV in the 80s.

10:11

And very early 90s, I'd

10:11

registered mtv.com because I

10:16

noticed before the web This was

10:16

I had a gopher server. I mean, I

10:20

was running a gopher server and

10:20

I had adam@mtv.com email

10:23

address. And I was using on the

10:23

air and I went to the to the

10:27

legal department, and I said,

10:27

the van Topher, who now I think,

10:30

is the CEO of the network. And I

10:30

said, Hey, man, I got this

10:35

mtv.com it's just me, I'm just

10:35

using it for me. Is that okay?

10:38

And his answer was, it's fine.

10:38

We've got the AOL keyword, we're

10:43

not.

10:46

That's very bad. AOL, keyword.

10:48

Yeah. So that was kind of

10:48

the vibe from the radio, guys,

10:51

you know, but also, this was

10:51

around the time blogging was

10:54

starting. So people were, you

10:54

know, Pooh poohing blogging. On

10:57

the one hand, it was great. On

10:57

the other hand, who, why do we

11:00

have to know what you have to

11:00

say about yourself? I mean, of

11:02

course, now, Twitter is Twitter.

11:02

Yeah, is exactly what that has

11:05

become. And so yeah, I started a

11:05

company and started a podcast

11:10

network, which I found is not a

11:10

good idea. You can't really

11:13

monetize the network as a whole

11:13

bunch of reasons for that. But

11:17

what is interesting as a side

11:17

note, because podcasting has

11:21

been around for a long time, but

11:21

it really the resurgence came

11:24

with cereal. And that was, you

11:24

know, came at a great time in

11:28

entertainment history, because

11:28

people had really gotten into

11:32

binge watching, thanks to

11:32

Netflix, etc. And so here was

11:36

something that was episodic. You

11:36

wanted to know what the next

11:39

episode was, but you couldn't

11:39

have it. And that was freaking

11:43

people out, wait a whole week.

11:43

Now, you could come in later and

11:46

catch up, and you can catch up

11:46

to where you know where it was,

11:48

which was also new. But this

11:48

episodic idea that really caught

11:52

storm, but we were doing, we

11:52

were doing all kinds of great

11:56

things with podcasting. intil.

11:56

And I had the pod show in San

12:02

Francisco, we had a competitor

12:02

coming up. And and we had heard

12:06

about this competitor, and they

12:06

had a whole flash interface. And

12:09

it was called Oto. And we were

12:09

just waiting for this thing to

12:12

launch and they never launched

12:12

like, it never happened. It was

12:15

really strange. But they they

12:15

launched something else. It was

12:19

a weird kind of service. And the

12:19

one thing we always struggled

12:22

with, certainly in the beginning

12:22

was explaining, subscribing to a

12:26

podcast that immediately made

12:26

people think it's costing me

12:29

money. It's like a magazine

12:29

subscription. And they had

12:32

something they called follow,

12:32

which I thought was a genius

12:35

idea. You have to know that odio

12:35

had pivoted and became Twitter.

12:40

So they took basically the

12:40

underpinnings of podcasting with

12:44

you know, RSS, and change this

12:44

subscribe to follow. And it just

12:50

took off and it went crazy. And

12:50

then you know, Facebook was

12:52

coming on the scene, then

12:52

YouTube came on the scene. So

12:56

you know, podcasting was a very,

12:56

very slow grower. throughout

13:01

those years when everything was

13:01

basically Oh, my God, look at

13:04

Twitter, look at the Twitter

13:04

fail. Well, was bigger news

13:07

than, than anything in

13:07

podcasting, it was just, you

13:10

know, it was it was a thing. So

13:10

it took quite a backseat for a

13:13

number of years.

13:17

I think the iPhone had to

13:17

play a big part in it too, when

13:19

the iPhone came out having the

13:19

podcast app, and just people

13:23

having access to that kind of

13:23

bandwidth on their phone to

13:26

listen, so you didn't have to,

13:26

you know, download it on your

13:29

computer and listen on a computer, but you're listening right there on your phone like

13:31

that. That made a big difference

13:34

in podcasting.

13:35

Right. And so this is

13:35

where I made a mistake, or where

13:39

I didn't realize my mistake, but

13:39

once you have, because I know we

13:44

didn't have the smartphone, we

13:44

were thinking mp3 players,

13:47

iPods, you know, and that was

13:47

kind of your your radio. But

13:50

with the iPhone, it switched.

13:50

Now the app became the radio.

13:55

And I'd never have I never had

13:55

to worry about radios throughout

13:59

my entire career. I needed a

13:59

transmitter I needed a

14:01

microphone, and I could do my

14:01

thing. radios have always been

14:06

there. You know, you can get

14:06

radios free in the mail. You

14:09

know, weather radio wind it up.

14:09

It's the radios are everywhere.

14:13

And they have no inherent value.

14:13

And no one's really put any, any

14:17

development into radios. You

14:17

know, it's like yeah, we went

14:20

from am to FM. We have digital

14:20

we have, you know, some like in

14:24

in Europe, mainly RDS. So you

14:24

can get some information flowing

14:28

through to your to your

14:28

receiver, no real innovation.

14:31

And when it comes to podcasting,

14:31

it truly is just the app. And

14:38

the app developers, of which

14:38

though many have come and gone

14:42

and some are doing strong and

14:42

most are struggling, have never

14:46

been part of any value flow.

14:46

It's just there's no money

14:49

running from an advertiser or

14:49

listener, anybody through an app

14:53

developer. So the radios are

14:53

drying up and what happens is

14:58

you get some couple of big And

14:58

they say, boom, we're Spotify.

15:03

Here's our radio, and Apple,

15:03

although they have been

15:06

fantastic stewards of podcasting

15:06

and have been very fair and

15:10

allowing complete access to

15:10

their will not complete but

15:14

enough access to their database,

15:14

they became the de facto

15:18

standard on the way in which we

15:18

don't know anything about, we

15:21

don't know how many things get

15:21

rejected. And once it's there,

15:26

love it or hate it. Alex Jones

15:26

has a right to say what he wants

15:28

to say. And if that and I

15:28

understand that might be a

15:31

problem for for Apple and their

15:31

customer base. That's okay. But

15:36

that's when I said, Okay, I'm

15:36

gonna take it back. Now, I want

15:40

to take the directory back, and

15:40

we're gonna put it in an

15:42

independent place. So I really

15:42

had two missions, one is

15:46

realizing that you just can't

15:46

have an entity that has any

15:52

other business line than being

15:52

the index, you can't have any

15:56

other business it has to be

15:56

that's its job. It can't be

15:59

stewarded or shepherded by

15:59

anybody who has anything else.

16:02

Certainly not when it comes to

16:02

advertising, because I'll make

16:05

my speech short. advertising is

16:05

censorship. That's just how it's

16:08

how it works. I've been in

16:08

commercial radio and television

16:11

for a long time. There's stuff

16:11

you can and can't say, when

16:15

there's advertising at play.

16:15

That's just the bottom line. So,

16:20

in order to preserve podcasting,

16:20

as a platform for free speech,

16:24

we needed an independent index.

16:24

And, wow, when it comes to the

16:29

actual act of free speech, it

16:29

doesn't get any better than

16:33

podcasting. That's what we do is

16:33

the true nature of free speech

16:38

distributed globally, that has

16:38

to be protected. And having done

16:42

my own show for coming up on our

16:42

13th anniversary with no agenda,

16:47

we have developed the value for

16:47

value model, which proves that

16:52

if you ask people to support

16:52

something they will, if you make

16:57

it frictionless enough, or if

16:57

you give them a reason to it's

17:00

more reason than anything,

17:00

people will support it. So I had

17:03

no doubt that we could start

17:03

podcasts index.org. With support

17:08

from the community. Thank you

17:08

very much to very generous

17:12

support we've seen from from

17:12

Buzzsprout. And I think that

17:16

we're kind of succeeding in that

17:16

mission. While there's been this

17:20

just as a sidetrack to this

17:20

because of the structure of

17:24

Apple, mainly. There's never

17:24

been a capability for

17:28

innovation. Everybody has ideas,

17:28

everybody knows what they want.

17:32

A lot of them agree. Some things

17:32

overlap. Some things I don't

17:36

think is anything where people

17:36

actually hate an idea so much,

17:39

they wouldn't want to see that

17:39

as an expansion of podcasting.

17:42

But everyone's kind of waiting

17:42

around for the big dog Apple to

17:45

say, Okay, we'll join in, we'll

17:45

do it. And then as we

17:48

progressed, Google came along.

17:48

And then Spotify. And I Heart

17:53

Radio bought bought Stitcher, I

17:53

think or or Gosh, maybe it's

17:57

Sirius XM. And they're all

17:57

building these little silos. So

18:02

where's my core problem is, I

18:02

need to incentivize guys who

18:06

know how to make radios into

18:06

making the next generation of

18:10

radio, what is the next podcast

18:10

experience from a listener or

18:15

viewer standpoint? Can I back

18:15

you up real quick? Yeah.

18:18

You mentioned just

18:18

briefly, the the idea that Apple

18:21

who have been great stewards to

18:21

the podcast community, they have

18:26

provided access, and as you

18:26

said, not total access, but

18:29

enough access to their

18:29

directory. Now, you're starting

18:33

the podcast index, can you go

18:33

into a little bit more of the

18:36

why that's important. I feel

18:36

like that is it's critical for

18:41

all of us as podcasters and

18:41

podcast fans to understand the

18:46

amount of power that Apple had

18:46

in being the default directory

18:51

for almost every third party

18:51

podcasting app,

18:54

right? Sure. As it turns

18:54

out, making a podcast app is

18:58

hard work. It's not just a nice

18:58

little, you know, player thingy

19:03

and a list thing and a click

19:03

here thing and subscribe, and

19:07

Ooh, it's all great. And then I

19:07

can focus on features like 1.1

19:11

to speed 1.5 speed, fast

19:11

forward, you know, all these

19:15

different things, you actually

19:15

have to do a lot of work in the

19:19

background, even if you're

19:19

working off of Apple's system,

19:23

there's still a lot of work to

19:23

get it the way you want to build

19:26

your app, your your radio

19:26

receiver. And so most of the

19:31

smaller podcast apps, we're all

19:31

tying into Apple's database

19:35

because you it really takes a

19:35

lot of horsepower and hands on

19:39

management to keep a million and

19:39

a half podcast feeds sorted, you

19:44

know, updated, and just you

19:44

know, that it's, it's much

19:47

bigger than it seemed it's not

19:47

unmanageable. It's not Google

19:50

level stuff, but it is it's

19:50

quite a bit for an independent

19:53

developer who has to have, you

19:53

know, many machines running

19:56

databases, etc. So with that in

19:56

place, Went Apple removed a

20:01

podcast that went like dominoes

20:01

all the way down the line. It's

20:05

like, Oh, no, you can't get that

20:05

podcast on any of these apps, or

20:08

most of them, right. And that's

20:08

the problem that it's it's like,

20:13

you have a transmitter but

20:13

someone's deflecting the beam,

20:16

you know, and that is the reason

20:16

why podcasting has not been

20:21

super successful with

20:21

advertising the way YouTube has,

20:24

is because it's distributed

20:24

because it doesn't belong to one

20:27

single company. And, and it's,

20:27

in my mind, when that when my

20:34

friend Joe Rogan went to

20:34

Spotify. That's a part of the

20:37

story. Because I know that

20:37

that's going to, you know,

20:41

Spotify is paying for him to

20:41

take his audience over to

20:44

Spotify. And hopefully, what

20:44

they hope is that they will then

20:49

change their podcast listening

20:49

behavior to using Spotify,

20:53

because they believe that almost

20:53

everything is on Spotify, and

20:56

quite a lot is not everything,

20:56

but quite a lot. That leaves a

21:00

vacuum, a super vacuum for

21:00

people who have who make podcast

21:05

apps. Because now one of the

21:05

reasons that eight or 10 million

21:09

people had to use their app to

21:09

listen to the Joe Rogan podcast

21:12

just went away to the

21:12

competition, one step over on

21:16

your screen, and that Spotify,

21:16

that's that sucks. So I need to

21:20

first of all ensure that the

21:20

next five Joe Rogan's who are

21:24

outside of the Spotify place,

21:24

and they're already born, Joe

21:28

said himself, they're here

21:28

today, they have the same reach

21:32

that they can have the same

21:32

great reach amongst audiences.

21:36

And also independent apps, just

21:36

podcast apps that people love

21:40

their podcast apps, they get

21:40

very wedded to them. And that we

21:44

don't want to end up in a

21:44

scenario where if you want to

21:47

listen to the shows, you like to

21:47

listen to that it's like the

21:51

television experience, which I

21:51

think is already an outdated

21:55

model. And that's why I go to

21:55

Netflix for this, I had Hulu for

21:59

this, I got to Amazon for this,

21:59

I got Disney plus for that I got

22:03

Oh Disney for that I got Apple

22:03

plus for this. And then at the

22:06

end of the day, you wake up you

22:06

go, I got $250 worth of

22:09

subscriptions to watch, you

22:09

know, eight shows, this is this

22:13

is too much. So and and that's

22:13

the second part that I'm working

22:18

on is retooling podcasting as a

22:18

platform of value. So that we

22:22

can operate in a, I think a

22:22

postmodern structure where

22:27

everybody can make money,

22:27

including, and maybe most

22:30

importantly, the people who

22:30

bring it to you, namely the app

22:34

developer. So I was adamant that

22:34

whatever we come up with, that

22:38

has to be a part of part of the

22:38

value flow.

22:44

Let me ask a question.

22:44

Because when the deal went down

22:46

with Joe Rogan, it's something

22:46

we talked about on Buzzcast was

22:48

just how Hey, podcasters, we

22:48

need to pay attention to what's

22:52

happening in the industry. And

22:52

we took our podcasts off of

22:58

Spotify, because we were

22:58

concerned about what we saw

23:01

going on in the industry. But

23:01

the feedback that we got was

23:03

overwhelming from from

23:03

independent podcasters. They

23:06

didn't understand what the big

23:06

deal was. They said, hey, look,

23:09

this, this is great for

23:09

everybody. If Joe Rogan's

23:12

getting this massive payout to

23:12

go to Spotify. Why is that a bad

23:15

thing for podcasters? Or for

23:15

podcasting? And so can you maybe

23:20

back up in kind of frame that

23:20

from to answer that question of

23:25

why is that? Why is that a bad

23:25

thing? Because if I'm on

23:28

Spotify, that's more people that

23:28

are listening to my podcast,

23:30

why? Why would I be concerned

23:30

with that?

23:34

Without fail, even what

23:34

you send up to Apple to get

23:37

included there. But certainly,

23:37

with Google, Amazon and Spotify,

23:44

you sign a contract. And the

23:44

Spotify contract is fantastic.

23:48

It says by clicking here, you

23:48

agree to give to us now having a

23:53

full license, paid in full, you

23:53

get nothing but so that's it

23:58

paid in full zero dollars. And

23:58

we can do anything we want. And

24:03

we can cut it up edit it, we can

24:03

make new shows out of it. If we

24:07

want to we can do whatever we

24:07

want. And no, no, that's just a

24:10

hard No. And people don't read.

24:10

So like, Oh, clickety Click

24:15

good. It's all good. I'm in and

24:15

you know, they give some leeway.

24:18

Or if you already have a host, a

24:18

host read. That's okay. Well,

24:22

we'll see how long that lasts.

24:22

But ultimately, they're now

24:25

doing pre rolls to pre rolls and

24:25

mid rolls. So you get

24:28

advertising in front of your

24:28

show. Not all of them, but some

24:31

will have them in the middle of

24:31

the show. And I don't know, it

24:35

depends for everybody. I

24:35

personally, I like ownership of

24:39

what I do and what I do with my

24:39

partners. You know, I mean, I'd

24:42

never put it up on Spotify To

24:42

start with, you know, those like

24:45

some eat, you know, they spam

24:45

every podcast or Hey, put your

24:49

stuff in a, you know, on the

24:49

Spotify. So I go take a look. So

24:53

it's already there, but it's not

24:53

in my account. So I said How is

24:55

this possible? And then they

24:55

sent me to some website that

24:59

said For a content, legal

24:59

copyright claim, well, I'll do

25:03

no such thing. See you, I'm not

25:03

gonna get into a legal argument

25:07

with you, I'm not gonna go

25:07

through this form and sign

25:10

anything. And two days later,

25:10

they took it off. And I think

25:13

that's because they're rolling

25:13

out the ads. And they know that

25:16

if they had that there without

25:16

my signature, that they were in

25:18

violation. So they purge that,

25:18

and I was quite happy. So I

25:21

didn't have to go through any,

25:21

any process. I also am not so

25:27

sure that Spotify as a podcast

25:27

platform is going to be that

25:31

successful. The reason I think

25:31

that is the people who have been

25:37

enjoying podcasts, probably a

25:37

different from the people who

25:41

use Spotify, when I'm in the

25:41

car, or when I'm roving around

25:45

or doing the dishes, whatever

25:45

my, my secondary thing is that

25:49

I'm doing while I'm enjoying

25:49

something on my ears. It's

25:54

podcast, it's not music, I and

25:54

so I'm just not really a music

25:57

guy. If I want some Spotify for

25:57

dinner, or in the evening, or

26:02

you know, and then I'll put it

26:02

on, but I'm more of a podcast

26:05

person, I believe people,

26:05

there's two different kinds of

26:07

people. And the people who were

26:07

listening to podcasts elsewhere

26:10

may stick with that experience,

26:10

because it is an experience. If

26:13

you using overcast it's very

26:13

different from Spotify. In many

26:17

ways. Spotify may catch up, I

26:17

don't know. But I also know some

26:21

of the numbers. The Michelle

26:21

Obama podcast, which was

26:24

purchased, you know, in the Joe

26:24

Rogan like deal I don't think

26:27

for the same amount of money but

26:27

for a lot. And they launched

26:31

with two sponsors with actually

26:31

was Procter and Gamble. So

26:34

they've tied and Donnie at dawn,

26:34

tide and Dawn, and I had heard

26:40

that there was very low

26:40

listenership. And I heard it

26:43

about three days before Spotify

26:43

announced, Wow, this is so

26:48

great. We're gonna put it on all

26:48

platforms. a cry for help

26:53

saying, Oh, crap, we can't

26:53

deliver the audience. We sold

26:57

this to the sponsors for so they

26:57

have a problem delivering the

27:01

audience. They may have the

27:01

audience, you can get it you can

27:04

by Joe Rogan's audience will

27:04

they stick around and listen to

27:06

other podcasts on that platform?

27:06

I think this left to prove

27:09

themselves. So I'm not so sure.

27:09

But to answer your question, the

27:12

long roundabout way, I have been

27:12

independent, I have not had to

27:17

adhere to anyone except my

27:17

partner, john C. Dvorak, or no

27:20

agenda, all my others face,

27:20

whatever I want to do. No one

27:24

can can take me off, no one can

27:24

remove my feed. It's just as far

27:28

as I'm concerned. Spotify radio,

27:28

said it's you know, and they

27:34

want to charge me you know, or

27:34

not basically charge me by

27:37

saying we own this. We can do

27:37

whatever we want until you don't

27:40

like it anymore. What was okay,

27:40

I don't like it. No.

27:43

Now, you did say that

27:43

you're not a music guy. And I

27:47

just want to back up to the MTV

27:47

days. Did that ruin it for you?

27:52

Kevin and I, Kevin and I were

27:52

talking about before before we

27:55

got together, like I remember.

27:55

Headbangers ball. Like, I

28:00

remember setting up the VCR to

28:00

record at my friend's house

28:03

because I didn't even have MTV.

28:03

And I'd have to go get the

28:05

recording, to go watch it. And

28:05

Kevin goes, you just wonder

28:08

like, I wonder if he even like

28:08

the music that he was listening

28:11

to? Or if he just had to like

28:11

that was just the job. They gave

28:14

him?

28:14

A good question. So first

28:14

of all, I lived inside the hits,

28:18

you know, the 80s and 90s hits

28:18

for a long time, and I

28:22

definitely got burned out on it.

28:22

Yeah, and, and because of the

28:25

radio stuff. I know every single

28:25

song I know the intro. I know

28:29

when the vocal start. I can't

28:29

sing any of the lyrics because

28:32

I'm always queuing up another

28:32

record. So I know how it ends.

28:36

Not yours ball was I really

28:36

liked it for a number of

28:39

reasons. One, it was something

28:39

that I looked the part so you

28:42

know, I just had to throw on a

28:42

leather jacket. But what I found

28:45

out really quick is this is top

28:45

and most metal and certainly

28:51

stuff we played is top notch

28:51

musicianship I mean really,

28:55

really good. Like classically

28:55

trained good. And and that I

29:00

always got off on that. And I

29:00

love that and whenever we had

29:03

guys coming by, of course, you'd

29:03

have the beat cage no one is

29:06

zonked out or crazy or whatever,

29:06

that's part of the World

29:10

Wrestling idea of metal and

29:10

Headbangers ball, but most of

29:14

these guys and gals were real.

29:14

And I always enjoyed that. And

29:18

when I when they understood that

29:18

I understood the music and, and

29:21

the composition. And I do know a

29:21

lot about that. We found each

29:26

other immediately and I had no

29:26

problem listening to metal, or

29:30

most of this. In fact, what I

29:30

hated about Headbangers ball is

29:33

that because of MTV being afraid

29:33

of alienating people, every

29:37

third video was Bon Jovi. You

29:37

know. It's like, Okay, so that

29:46

was kind of lame, you know, you

29:46

can't be you know, having

29:49

Metallica and then Bon Jovi

29:49

after that. It makes sense. But,

29:54

you know, for the, whatever

29:54

their reasons were, that's

29:57

that's how they did that. So and

29:57

I actually I took around about

30:01

way after, when I got more into

30:01

one of the internet after I left

30:05

MTV, I started listening to a

30:05

lot classical kind of detox just

30:10

from everything. And I moved to,

30:10

I moved to Texas, I really got,

30:16

you know, I really got into

30:16

country, modern country. And by

30:19

the way, it's a lot of the guys

30:19

from the hair bands in the 80s,

30:22

who are playing that drums and

30:22

bass and guitar for some of the,

30:25

you know, for some of the big

30:25

country guys, so I love

30:28

listening to to talk, whatever

30:28

it is I can, I can probably

30:31

listen for a while.

30:32

So I think we had a good

30:32

conversation about the idea of

30:36

open versus platform, right. And

30:36

the the downsides to the

30:41

platform is control, you got to

30:41

play by their rules, they could

30:44

pull the plug on you at any

30:44

second, you're building whatever

30:47

you're building in somebody

30:47

else's, you know, playground,

30:49

right, right. But there's also

30:49

benefits to platforms. And some

30:56

of those benefits are like, the

30:56

ability for a platform to

31:01

improve the listener experience.

31:01

Like if they control everything

31:04

kind of soup to nuts, right?

31:04

Like, that's an easy task for

31:07

them, or discoverability. So

31:07

you're already listening to

31:10

this, hey, and we know all this

31:10

stuff about you, because you

31:13

signed up and gave us your credit card and told us where you live and told us how old you

31:15

are. So you're probably gonna

31:17

like this too. Like, they can

31:17

help recommend things and

31:20

building those algorithms, building those listener experiences. That's if we want

31:22

open if we don't want people to

31:27

go to platforms, that's what we

31:27

have to compete with. Right?

31:30

Like, that's why YouTube is

31:30

winning the video space, right?

31:33

Because they've created a great

31:33

environment to be able to

31:36

discover and find and enjoy

31:36

video content. So how do we do

31:40

that in the podcasting space,

31:40

and, you know, kind of leading

31:43

into this discussion that I want

31:43

to have about these these new

31:46

namespace tags that we're

31:46

developing? Because I think

31:49

that's what we're trying to bite

31:49

off is how do we improve the

31:52

listening experience? How do we

31:52

bring some of these technologies

31:56

that traditionally have only

31:56

been developed in platforms, but

31:59

we can do them in the open space

31:59

if we all work together?

32:02

Okay, so here's my

32:02

experience over the past 15,

32:06

almost 20 years, is that

32:06

podcasting is typically long

32:11

form it you know, rarely Is it a

32:11

five minute 10 minute podcast,

32:15

of course, they exist. Lots of

32:15

people enjoy them, half hour

32:18

shows, but I think they're in

32:18

general a little bit more long

32:21

form than your typical YouTube

32:21

video. And so I don't think a

32:27

recommendation engine I see, you

32:27

know, Apple is working on it.

32:31

And Spotify is working on it.

32:31

Yeah. Okay, you know, but you

32:34

it's not It's same thing to

32:34

sample a podcast, versus a

32:40

YouTube video. And YouTube is

32:40

pretty well defined what that

32:44

format is, in general, just for

32:44

the Quick Hits, and you know,

32:48

and yes, when you're in a

32:48

YouTube hole, and you're looking

32:52

at cat videos, you want more cat

32:52

videos, that you know, a podcast

32:56

is, it's just a whole different

32:56

animal. And I find the

32:59

recommendations. And we've never

32:59

advertised, never, never done

33:03

any of that is mouth to mouth.

33:03

Well, we really turned it around

33:07

from the get go. We said you,

33:07

our audience, you're not

33:09

listening to your producers, so

33:09

you better start producing. That

33:11

means you to send this money and you need to send this information and we need to be

33:13

able to rely on you. And if you

33:16

have expertise, so we've made it

33:16

unlike radio where the only feet

33:21

Well, I come from radio when you

33:21

get mail. I mean, I had an MTV,

33:24

even I had mailbags mail bags

33:24

full in my dressing room. Now,

33:29

that was the feedback loop. And

33:29

then, you know, on radio, we had

33:32

the telephone, but it was kind

33:32

of like, hey, you're calling

33:34

100? What's your name? shanique.

33:34

What's unique? Are you calling

33:36

from Brooklyn, but you're

33:36

calling 100? You know, that's

33:40

kind of the that's kind of it.

33:40

And maybe you troll the phone

33:42

lines during a song and talk to

33:42

some listeners. There's really

33:45

no, there's not really No, no

33:45

feedback engine. And now I think

33:50

for YouTube, you see, you know,

33:50

comments is, is a big place for

33:54

that immediate feedback, by the

33:54

way of which the people who make

33:57

those videos Oh, nothing. That's

33:57

all Google alphabet, YouTube,

34:01

they own that all. I mean, how

34:01

many times you like oh, this

34:04

would be a cool video and it's

34:04

gone taken down remove by user

34:08

doesn't exist violated Terms of

34:08

Service, the experience is

34:11

getting worse. And that nothing

34:11

really little to do with

34:15

political bias. It's not brand

34:15

friendly. advertising is

34:18

censorship. So with with

34:18

podcasts, it's really the tribe

34:23

that you build, and the tribe

34:23

around you. And it doesn't, what

34:27

I've learned is it doesn't

34:27

matter how small or how big that

34:29

tribe is, if you could

34:29

communicate with him and you

34:32

give them enough ways to talk to

34:32

you sure, email short. You can

34:35

have forums, comments, whatever,

34:35

we have a chat, which we call

34:40

the troll room, but we have many

34:40

ways for people to feedback we

34:43

and we also gave away all our

34:43

data, everything we have, we

34:47

have for search engines. We

34:47

have, you know, just

34:50

unbelievable amounts of

34:50

promotional sites that do

34:52

something specific for the show

34:52

about the show, all put together

34:56

by our producers, our audience

34:56

and it is is a totally different

35:01

beast. I don't think it can be

35:01

recreated in any manner like

35:05

that in any other medium is very

35:05

specific to podcasting. And that

35:09

format of programming that it's

35:09

to me it's I think we'll see

35:14

better things coming from the

35:14

podcast apps to help. An a

35:19

podcast app also has an

35:19

audience. They you know, they

35:23

have an identity. It's not

35:23

shining right now. But why

35:28

wouldn't a podcast app be able

35:28

to do deals with a podcaster and

35:34

promote their podcast? Yeah,

35:34

this is free market. None of

35:39

that is enabled. And now comes

35:39

in the namespace and the

35:44

expansion that we're putting in

35:44

place, we're podcasting. And

35:47

what we when Dave and I start,

35:47

Dave Jones, and I started on

35:50

this journey. We said, let's

35:50

just see what everybody wants.

35:55

And let's not have a big meeting

35:55

about it, we'll put into the

35:58

document, which, as you know,

35:58

all of a sudden, smart people

36:02

show up and know how to write

36:02

the document and put it in the

36:05

right format. And everyone's

36:05

collaborative. And, and it turns

36:08

out, there's really no issue.

36:08

The only thing is Apple's not in

36:12

the conversation, or Spotify is

36:12

not in the conversation. Well,

36:14

they clearly don't care about

36:14

us. So why don't we make our own

36:19

space the way we want it to be

36:19

and what I've seen from captions

36:23

to transcripts to ratings to, I

36:23

mean, goes the list goes on and

36:27

on. All these things are great,

36:27

and everyone has one or two

36:31

specific ideas they want to

36:31

implement. Well, let's put it

36:34

all in. And if you have

36:34

something working, you're

36:37

definitely in, it's good to go.

36:37

Because this is going to create

36:41

a Spotify as a podcast

36:41

experience is boring. It's

36:46

boring. It's the same crap we've

36:46

seen for 1015. New what's an

36:51

inbox? You know, now I got a pod

36:51

friender, where you can swipe

36:55

left and swipe right. This is

36:55

it. That's a that's a funny app.

37:00

Like, um, you know, it's like

37:00

just, I'm looking at I'm

37:03

scanning podcast the way I

37:03

would, why not anymore. But the

37:06

way I might have back in the day

37:06

on Tinder, you know, there's

37:09

cast coverage, which is a whole

37:09

different discovery mechanism by

37:14

itself. But I've seen guys who

37:14

are working on chats that will

37:18

incorporate the podcast, I mean,

37:18

this Finally, we have been able

37:22

to open it up and it feels to me

37:22

I just see this, this flood this

37:26

rush of, of a decade of pent up

37:26

creativity and ideas and

37:33

frustration. is just like spewing out

37:35

everywhere. We've been doing

37:37

this for a month. Look at what's

37:37

happened. I mean, we've got a

37:41

lot of you guys, we got a

37:41

blueberry from the hosting side.

37:45

Was it? fireside FM

37:47

fireside? Yeah. And the

37:47

captivate guys came in there to

37:52

modify can say they show a

37:52

lot of seeds. But Where's it

37:55

coming from? It's coming from

37:55

guys like you. And that's where

37:59

the innovation is going to come

37:59

from. And we have a front row?

38:03

Well, I can tell you we've

38:03

been we've been excited when we

38:05

found out about podcast index,

38:05

like you said it was a there was

38:10

a lot of pent up ideas, we had

38:10

tons of ideas, things that we

38:13

would want to be able to bring

38:13

to the podcaster listener

38:17

experience like what Kevin was

38:17

talking about. And we don't we

38:22

as as a host can't do it, we

38:22

have to do it in partnership

38:25

with other hosts, and with with

38:25

players with the people that are

38:29

actually going to be playing the

38:29

podcast. And so what you've done

38:32

for us, and the reason that we

38:32

are big supporters, big

38:36

supporters in our time, our

38:36

treasure exactly like what

38:39

you've talked about, the reason

38:39

that we are we we had that

38:41

mentality is because we see the

38:41

opportunity there to rapidly

38:45

innovate faster than any one

38:45

company can do by doing it

38:50

together. And so I'm really

38:50

thankful to you for putting a

38:54

group together and excited, you

38:54

know, to be able to play a part.

38:58

Well, thank you. The thing

38:58

is, is that I, first of all, I'm

39:03

correcting a mistake. I had no

39:03

idea. I didn't understand the

39:07

mistake I made, but I think I

39:07

went through it. It's like I

39:09

never thought about the radio

39:09

side of it. Also never really

39:12

thought about the actual

39:12

transmitter tower side. That

39:15

will be an example of you guys.

39:15

You know, depending on what

39:19

metaphor you look at, or what

39:19

model because it can vary and

39:22

can interchange. And I think

39:22

that a lot of people have tried

39:26

very hard to get these things

39:26

done. And to be blunt about it.

39:31

All we really saw were groups

39:31

and boards and governors and all

39:37

kinds of official titles and

39:37

fundraising and and I like and

39:42

Dave Jones, who I've been

39:42

working with for 10 years on

39:45

we've been we've created so many

39:45

cool things that that no more

39:48

than eight people use. And we've

39:48

only met once in our life, but

39:52

we've had this great

39:52

relationship and it usually goes

39:55

like this. Hey Dave. Dave got a

39:55

great idea like okay, what are

39:58

we doing? And then you know, and

39:58

then we In two days, like, Okay,

40:01

I got to work and what is it and

40:01

they're like, Oh, this is cool.

40:03

And then I wind up using it for

40:03

myself who use it for self and

40:06

it goes nowhere. But when I saw

40:06

Joe leaving to go into, you

40:11

know, to go into Spotify, and I

40:11

saw what was potentially

40:15

happening with Apple as the

40:15

mothership, I said, Dave, we

40:19

have 10 years of aggregation

40:19

experience, we know how all of

40:23

this stuff works. We know how

40:23

gnarly it can be. Let's just

40:27

let's just put this together.

40:27

And then let's just wait for

40:30

people to show up. And whatever

40:30

they want, will do. And the only

40:35

reason I think that we are

40:35

getting away with it is because

40:40

of who I am. Not I don't have

40:40

any skill really, you know, it's

40:44

like Dave Jones is really doing

40:44

everything he can. And he's

40:48

educating me as much as I

40:48

educate him probably a little

40:51

more, for some reasons, like

40:51

there's not going to be on the

40:53

pod father, so great. So no one

40:53

really saw me in public. So

40:57

let's just run, run, run, run

40:57

run before they catch up, you

41:00

know. And I think it's the

41:00

Spirit. And that's what I see

41:03

with Todd and blueberry. That's

41:03

what I see with you guys. That's

41:06

what I see with Martin from

41:06

Denmark, who showed up and

41:10

listen, because of course, we do

41:10

podcasts in 2.0 podcast about

41:14

what we're doing the same thing

41:14

we did 15 years ago. And he's

41:17

listening. I'm like, yeah, we

41:17

should have a web app,

41:20

progressive web app, well, boom,

41:20

there it is. become this hive

41:24

mind of, and we have people who

41:24

are experts in database, which

41:28

Dave is fantastic, but we didn't

41:28

know everything. This stuff's

41:31

religion. So people really

41:31

collaborating. And I've seen it

41:36

happen so many times with open

41:36

source software development is

41:39

really beautiful. And people

41:39

coalesce and it's, it's just as

41:44

much science as it is art. You

41:44

can get to code in so many ways.

41:48

And I'm not a coder, but I can

41:48

see it and I understand it. And

41:51

I and I actually do see beauty

41:51

in it. But this, there never was

41:55

a political agenda because

41:55

podcasts index is there for one

42:00

reason only. It is to preserve

42:00

podcasting as a platform for

42:06

free speech, I hope to bring

42:06

personal stuff into that and

42:13

offer many more things of value.

42:13

That would be valuable for

42:17

everybody. And you will see if

42:17

it works, it's it doesn't really

42:20

matter. Because ultimately,

42:20

podcasts index or just has to

42:24

run by itself. I find it

42:24

refreshing and very exciting.

42:27

I'm 56. And not a lot of people

42:27

get a chance to do something

42:32

again, in the mid 50s. So I'm

42:32

super excited about.

42:39

And I can't I can't believe it's only been a month. I mean, we have three tags that

42:40

are like namespace tags that are

42:44

completely accepted, formalized

42:44

and have support for at least

42:48

one or more apps in the space.

42:48

So we have transcript tag, which

42:50

is supported by Buzzsprout,

42:50

podcast addict pad for pod

42:53

friend in pod news, the lock

42:53

tag, which helps prevent piracy,

42:58

podcast piracy, and we really

42:58

need anchor to jump on board

43:00

with this one. But so far, it's

43:00

been Buzzsprout pod news podcast

43:03

index, and I thought I saw

43:03

somebody else today. Didn't

43:06

fireside say they were gonna do

43:06

it. fireside is coming out too.

43:10

And then we have funding.

43:12

Well, what I like about

43:12

it, because obviously the honor

43:14

system and this is not like,

43:14

it's like some Gestapo comes

43:17

down from the digital heavens in

43:17

a rescue if you import a feed

43:22

that has a block to tag enabled

43:22

in it. But it does allow us to,

43:26

you know, someone whose feed has

43:26

been imported into an anchor to

43:31

say, Excuse me, I see this over

43:31

here, this blocked I mean, we're

43:34

basically we're giving them an

43:34

out. Yeah, right. to anchor the

43:39

thing. marginally deserved,

43:41

I feel like we solve their problem,

43:43

we solve their problem

43:43

will support this, you know, so

43:46

anyone who comes along, you

43:46

know, all you have to do is just

43:49

reject it. It's easy, and it'll

43:49

save them so much aggravation,

43:53

human extra human resources. So

43:53

they'll do it, I'm sure they'll

43:56

come around. Otherwise, you

43:56

know, if someone is importing

43:59

your feed, you say, look, here

43:59

it is. It's got the lock tag, I

44:02

see you don't support it. But

44:02

clearly, that's telling you

44:05

something, and it's a starting

44:05

point, instead of just Hey, hey,

44:09

I think that's mine. And let me

44:09

prove it to you.

44:12

Let me ask you this,

44:12

because I know I don't know if

44:14

we're gonna have enough time to

44:14

get into monetization too much.

44:18

But I wonder you know, you've

44:18

you've been around the internet

44:21

for a long time, right? You

44:21

remember when internet met free,

44:26

anything on the internet was

44:26

free. If a book is on the

44:28

internet, it must be free. It's totally legal for me to go download and do whatever music

44:30

if it's on the internet must be

44:32

free. I can just download it.

44:32

It's for me, right? If it's if

44:34

it's on the internet, it's free.

44:34

And that mentality continues

44:39

today. of everything being free,

44:39

whether it's Oh, yeah, Facebook

44:43

doesn't cost me anything. When

44:43

now we're starting to learn that

44:46

it does cost us something. And I

44:46

feel like this kind of relates

44:50

to your value for value. It's

44:50

recognizing if something has

44:54

value, you're paying for it one

44:54

way or the other. Right? Like

44:58

there is a cost associate With

44:58

that, and I wonder if that if

45:02

the mentality of internet equals

45:02

free, if that is going to make

45:06

if that's one of the challenges

45:06

that we face as podcasters,

45:10

creating content, that it's

45:10

valuable. It costs money to

45:15

produce, it costs money to host

45:15

and to deliver one of the

45:19

obstacles to monetizing, or to

45:19

being able to afford to do that

45:23

is this mentality of well, it's

45:23

on the internet, it must be

45:27

free, it's on Spotify can

45:27

download, it must be free, you

45:30

know, I can just download it

45:30

with a podcast app. So it must

45:32

not really cost anybody

45:32

anything. How do you respond to

45:36

that? Like, how do you how do

45:36

you get people to understand,

45:39

you know, this value for value

45:39

approach that I know that you've

45:43

had on the no agenda podcast,

45:43

and you've talked about in

45:46

podcasting 2.0.

45:48

I'll start with that.

45:48

First, the value for value

45:50

concept started about 11 or 12

45:50

years ago, almost probably close

45:55

to the 13. When Jhansi, Dvorak

45:55

and I were doing the show, we

45:58

were doing it on a regular

45:58

basis. And it was taking up real

46:01

time. And we said, Hey, this

46:01

takes real time. We love doing

46:06

it, we see this people out there

46:06

love it, you got to send us

46:08

something, but instead of

46:08

saying, saying $5, or, you know,

46:12

making up some arbitrary amount,

46:12

who said, whatever it's worth to

46:16

you. So I would literally say

46:16

just listen to us for an hour,

46:20

what is an hour of your time

46:20

worth? What was it that getting

46:23

anything out, if you didn't get

46:23

anything out of it, please don't

46:25

send anything. And there's no

46:25

penalty, you can listen to it

46:29

whenever you want. If you're

46:29

listening, then you clearly find

46:32

some value, and it was $1 send

46:32

that. So what we found very

46:36

quickly is people are happy to

46:36

send $5. So I'm actually will

46:40

send you 50. And there's always

46:40

a couple who will send you 500.

46:44

That's a mind boggling

46:44

experience. And then you learn

46:47

very quickly that if you remind

46:47

people that this is an

46:50

outstanding product, if you do

46:50

have to make good product, a lot

46:54

of people will never make money because it's just not good enough. But I believe that even

46:56

if 10 people love your podcast,

47:01

they will be they will sustain

47:01

you. You just have to say I need

47:05

an X amount to get by, and this

47:05

is what I need. And if you don't

47:09

do it, then I have to go find

47:09

something else to do. It's not

47:12

begging it's value for value.

47:12

It's It's interesting, I think

47:16

the most important thing I hear

47:16

for me to hear is someone who I

47:20

respect as an interviewer, a

47:20

host a personality, whatever it

47:24

is, to all of a sudden break

47:24

away and do some bullcrap spin

47:28

about some product, you know,

47:28

they don't give a crap about

47:30

superbeets Fine, whatever. You

47:30

know, that, to me is insulting.

47:34

That's really insulting. I'm not

47:34

against advertising. But I did

47:37

find that the nature of

47:37

podcasting is incompatible with

47:42

advertising. And I don't mean

47:42

Tommy, john, I don't mean

47:45

Squarespace, I'm talking about

47:45

brand advertising, Procter and

47:48

Gamble, a BMW General Motors,

47:48

pharmaceutical a guy but that's

47:54

where your money is. Otherwise,

47:54

you're just stirring around a

47:56

little pieces of food, if we're

47:56

serious about it. We're brand

48:00

unsafe by nature. And there's no

48:00

way for anybody to go through

48:04

every single podcast to make

48:04

sure that nothing offensive was

48:08

said, and you know, where we're

48:08

at it's advertising is now being

48:11

used as a weapon. And that's the

48:11

canceled cultures. It's because

48:15

someone doesn't like you would

48:15

go after your advertisers.

48:17

That's it, not because of what

48:17

you say necessarily. It's just a

48:21

wedge, it's a tool. That's why

48:21

advertising is censorship. It

48:24

took me eight years and $65

48:24

million to learn that it didn't

48:28

work in podcasting, you can't

48:28

scale it, it's not interesting.

48:32

And and what you wind up doing

48:32

is classroom, a whole bunch of

48:35

ads over mediocre content, I

48:35

want no part of that. Understand

48:39

that people need to be paid. You

48:39

really have to think in a in a

48:43

postmodern way. So value for

48:43

value is not restricting your

48:48

access, not gatekeeping what you

48:48

can listen what I'm doing, but

48:53

reminding you that what I'm

48:53

doing is valuable and making the

48:55

friction for you to get

48:55

something to me as easy as

48:59

possible. Now, let me talk about

48:59

the landscape because I've

49:02

thought about this, and I'm not

49:02

ready to talk about everything.

49:05

But there's definitely a

49:05

strategy in mind. So about 3% of

49:10

the no agenda audience supports

49:10

it financially 50 to 60% and

49:16

support it with time and talent.

49:16

So you know, there's a large

49:21

part of people who just we don't

49:21

know what they're doing, they're

49:23

not doing anything. They're not contributing, they're just hanging out fine. So the time

49:25

and talent of sort of the three

49:30

value for value, time, talent

49:30

and treasure, time and talent

49:33

that's making the show and where

49:33

appropriate. People get credited

49:37

as a producer. Most of them want

49:37

to be kept anonymous, but people

49:41

get a huge kick out of hearing

49:41

their information being used and

49:44

that's how it should be. They

49:44

are putting the show to get I

49:47

mean, we're so great. What cause

49:47

x VJs so good. Oh man, I'm just

49:52

jacking away. I can take the

49:52

hits can put it together. I can

49:55

make it flow. And I've learned a

49:55

lot along the way. But it's

49:58

really the producers who do

49:58

that. Now the treasure part is

50:02

people who turns out numerology

50:02

they want to send a message to

50:07

so they'll send a number 333 $69

50:07

and 69 cents me, I want to get

50:12

laid 41 you know, the 42, the

50:12

most important number in the

50:16

universe on pi days $3 and 14

50:16

cents $31 and 41 cents $314. And

50:24

we of course, you can find

50:24

exactly what money is coming in,

50:27

we give you the amounts, we tell

50:27

you who sent it. And people have

50:30

a message and they have

50:30

something to say, I love you. I

50:34

love my husband, happy birthday,

50:34

or wow man that really affected

50:39

me or I had my kids listen to

50:39

this, or I actually know what's

50:42

going on with this. So it's a

50:42

it's another feedback loop. And

50:46

it's copyable. It's not that

50:46

hard to do. So we know that

50:52

people are willing to do it. And

50:52

that's about 3%. I think 1% is

50:55

doable for anybody 1% of your

50:55

audience should be able you

50:59

should be able to have them

50:59

support you financially. If we

51:03

look at the IAB numbers, the

51:03

Interactive Advertising Bureau,

51:06

which who knows, but let's just

51:06

say there's 100 million people

51:10

in the United States who listen

51:10

to podcasts, on average, a

51:14

listened to one hour a day,

51:14

seven days a week. So value an

51:20

hour at $1. So we have 100

51:20

million people 1% of that is a

51:25

million times your dollar an

51:25

hour is a million dollars a day

51:31

of people willing to give their

51:31

money to podcasts they listen

51:35

to. I think that's an

51:35

interesting market to start

51:39

with. Because once you got them

51:39

that, you know, you can just

51:43

$1 $1 per hour. That's a lot of

51:43

money. And I think we can I

51:49

think we know how to go after

51:49

it. And it's going to make it

51:52

frictionless. It will ultimately

51:52

start with a better proposition

51:58

than what we are offering today.

51:58

Spotify thinks that music is a

52:03

better music. And podcasting is

52:03

a better proposition. I believe

52:07

we can make podcasting, more

52:07

exciting, better, much more

52:10

interactive. Some of the stuff

52:10

I'm seeing talked about, about

52:14

sending, having chapter markers

52:14

being sent back into the

52:18

database for distribution, that

52:18

now you're getting something

52:21

interesting that people are also

52:21

able to contribute in some way

52:25

to, to the program, even though

52:25

it's not directly in the

52:29

program, they're doing

52:29

something, they're adding

52:31

something they're adding value.

52:31

So my dream is you press a

52:36

button, and you've got mp3 bits

52:36

coming one way, and there's some

52:40

money stream going back the

52:40

other way. And it's not one to

52:43

one, there's a couple other

52:43

people in that loop. And I think

52:47

we're going to be able to see

52:47

that in the next well, we got to

52:49

close out this first namespace

52:49

is going to freeze that down and

52:53

you know, get as many people on

52:53

board as possible. And I mean

52:57

that the uptake has been really

52:57

fantastic. And it's like, it's

53:01

like things fall in our lap. All

53:01

of a sudden, Spotify kicks off

53:05

for so called q anon podcast.

53:05

Well, I've listened to the X 22

53:10

podcasts and oh my gosh, it's so

53:10

offensive, please, why wouldn't

53:14

someone put together a

53:14

conspiracy theorist podcast app?

53:19

that just does that? Why not?

53:19

Why not? Have the god casters do

53:24

their own beautiful app just for

53:24

each individual religion? I

53:27

don't know it. It doesn't all

53:27

have to be a big library of you

53:31

can share, you can search but

53:31

you know, there's reasons why. I

53:36

think app developers who are

53:36

creating experiences can promote

53:40

a certain something that they

53:40

are also promotional people,

53:45

they need to promote their

53:45

wares. But I don't want them

53:47

doing it for a stupid banner ad.

53:47

I want to be in the mix. So I'm

53:52

gonna have to back the ATM up to

53:52

this puppy and show everybody

53:55

and then maybe we'll maybe

53:55

something will come out of it.

53:57

You know? You something fun will

53:57

happen. Not thank you enough.

54:02

Because when when Dave told me

54:02

that, you know you guys were

54:05

what you guys were doing, first

54:05

of all, how it makes so much

54:07

sense. You really jumped in and

54:07

it's really been incredible kind

54:11

and the blog post that that

54:11

really helps. And it's going to

54:15

get us somewhere it's really

54:15

going to get us somewhere. Yeah,

54:18

that's our hope. That's how

54:20

it is Travis ever say

54:20

anything. You just make him sit

54:22

there.

54:22

Oh, he can talk to

54:22

Travis. And Mike's on right,

54:24

buddy?

54:25

Oh, I love to talk. So

54:29

I'm just looking at Travis

54:29

the whole time like anything.

54:33

So so here's something

54:33

that I think will be really

54:36

helpful for the average

54:36

podcaster that's listening.

54:40

That's trying to figure out their place in this conversation. So a lot of the

54:42

conversation gets elevated to

54:45

the Joe Rogan's of the world and

54:45

the NPR of the world and it's

54:47

like 1%

54:49

of the 1%

54:51

it becomes like an

54:51

untouchable conversation. Right.

54:54

And so I think that the thing

54:54

that I would love to hear from

54:57

you is the developer thing. And

54:57

I know this is an overused word,

55:03

but developing the intimacy

55:03

between hosts and listeners, and

55:06

the downstream effects of

55:06

investing in better listening

55:10

experiences, both from a index

55:10

side from a host side from an

55:14

app developer side to make

55:14

podcasting, even more special

55:18

than it already is, to then

55:18

really help you know, drive that

55:22

narrative of podcasting is not

55:22

about getting the hundred

55:26

thousand subscriber play button

55:26

from YouTube. But it's about

55:29

connecting really strongly with

55:29

a handful of people that really

55:32

love what you do. So I just love

55:32

to hear kind of your vision for

55:36

how you're hoping podcasts index

55:36

and podcasting. 2.0 is able to

55:40

bring that to life in the future.

55:42

Well, you know that

55:42

Travis, you can't just like you

55:46

can't make a great code writer

55:46

developer, they are. Not every

55:53

person who's doing a podcast,

55:53

you know, is going to be great.

55:57

In fact, a lot probably will be

55:57

pretty mediocre as as you'd

56:02

expect. Personally, I think the

56:02

the the jewel for podcasting is

56:08

in, understand, and that's the

56:08

pot, it's not really a

56:11

technology issue. It's just your

56:11

honor. Do you listen to your

56:15

audience? And what's your

56:15

takeaway, and you know, I give

56:21

everybody everyone gets some

56:21

form of answer on the email, you

56:24

may be macro it by me to do

56:24

thanks, but I meant it, and I

56:28

sent it. But in general, I

56:28

really think the audience needs

56:34

to be a part of the production,

56:34

that's not appropriate for a lot

56:38

of shows that people like cereal

56:38

as an example. And but I think I

56:44

personally find it a little bit

56:44

boring, I want to hear the

56:46

audience is a part of it. And I

56:46

want people to think they're a

56:49

part of it. Even if they're not

56:49

participating, or that there's

56:52

that possibility to be a part of

56:52

it through one of many, many

56:55

ways. That's, that's really a

56:55

talent. And it has nothing to do

57:00

with the technology is, how do

57:00

you use this medium, we always

57:04

use the new medium with the

57:04

programming from the previous

57:07

one. So you know, it's taken a

57:07

little while, but I think I've

57:13

seen it all along is there's a

57:13

different way to communicate

57:16

with the audience and get them

57:16

involved. And they'll support it

57:22

because it's about them. Now, in

57:22

this case, I have a pretty broad

57:25

topic, but I could do it for any

57:25

I could do it for helicopters

57:28

and stuff. As long as I know

57:28

what I'm talking about, I could

57:32

do about any topic, and it would

57:32

just depend on what my goals

57:35

are. But I think again, take

57:35

that 1%. So if you have no if

57:40

you got 1000 people that are

57:40

listening, and you can get him,

57:45

Well, can you get 10 of them to

57:45

listen to participate with

57:49

finances, and 40% giving you

57:49

other things? I think I think

57:55

that's the magic right there.

57:55

It's like this, you're doing a

58:00

podcast for your customers. I

58:00

mean, let me Why am I even

58:04

telling you this, you figured it

58:04

out already. I mean, you are

58:06

doing exactly what I'm talking

58:06

about. This this is this is for

58:10

your, for your for your your

58:10

community, your tribe, whether

58:14

it's 10 people or 10,000,

58:16

thank you so much for for

58:16

coming on and talking to our

58:18

audience. And I hope that this

58:18

helps our customers and our fans

58:23

understand what we're doing and

58:23

why we've invested so much time,

58:26

effort and energy into

58:26

supporting the podcast index and

58:29

working on this namespace and

58:29

rolling out features that might

58:32

not have necessarily been at the

58:32

top of your list. But you know,

58:34

we see that they're important.

58:34

And they're important, not just

58:37

for Buzzsprout, and for the

58:37

Buzzsprout customers, but for

58:40

the community at large and

58:40

protecting the space that we all

58:42

care and love. And so that's

58:42

what we're doing. That's what

58:46

we're excited about. Adam, we

58:46

thank you so much for kicking it

58:49

off and for being the pod

58:49

father, and for your time today.

58:53

Thank you and again, thank

58:53

you so much for what would you

58:56

guys have been doing

58:56

individually and as a team and

58:59

pay attention everybody because

58:59

this doesn't happen all that

59:02

often where you get a whole

59:02

bunch of people who just have

59:05

some loose common goals working

59:05

together and and sprouts and

59:10

trees coming out of it. And

59:10

anyone who's listening or

59:14

watching can be an active part

59:14

of that. So we look forward to

59:18

seeing as many people come play

59:18

as we can get and thank you