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All. Right, I'm saying this, Know I'll say it

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again later. And if I'm wrong, you

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can throw tomato at your phone or your computer.

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However, you're listening to this right now. But when

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Think you're gonna wanna hear the

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Wbyouare Beyond Law Repairs Home Station

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has confirmed that, in fact. So

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And off we go. W

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b you are podcasts. Bossed.

0:55

Heads. Up. This. Episode has descriptions

0:57

of violence, sexual assault, and

1:00

strong language. Last.

1:02

Time on beyond all repair. Good

1:04

morning is this Anthony Snow Are

1:06

getting that you want? Law. Farms

1:09

know you're going to live out of guy

1:11

in. The business man who has

1:13

had questionable business venture and was

1:15

incarcerated maintains that he was never

1:17

involved in fraud. Why would you

1:19

go up there and say you

1:21

saw me do it. When

1:24

nobody wants to address the-out all

1:27

about browse the only person ogre

1:29

really address that. Could

1:31

be the one person who knew everything and that

1:33

was so feel. Around

1:42

the time I called Sean Korea

1:44

a K. Anthony Snow. There.

1:46

Was someone else preparing to call him? The.

1:49

Interaction started with text messages

1:51

back and forth, then audio

1:53

messages. Sean. Said the first

1:55

one. Good morning show or

1:57

a. shame The

2:00

youngest of the Coriah siblings was trying

2:02

to keep an open mind about what

2:04

happened the day of Marlene Johnson's murder.

2:07

Which of his siblings was telling the truth? His

2:10

sister, Sophia, or his brother,

2:12

Sean. I'm happy to see

2:14

that you're healthy, happy to see

2:16

that you're living a decent life for the most

2:18

part. And I'm proud of

2:20

you to some regards. Shane hasn't

2:23

spoken to Sean in more than a decade.

2:25

And they've never talked about the murder. Until

2:28

now. In terms of

2:30

Sophia's case being reopened, I'll

2:33

put her back in prison. My

2:36

best advice is, Shane, stay away

2:38

from that. Please, be

2:40

mindful. Don't become

2:42

my enemy. Sean

2:48

sounds like he's recording this in his car

2:51

during a rainstorm. Likely in

2:53

Georgetown, Guyana, where he lives. Shane,

2:55

from his New York City apartment, 2500 miles

2:58

away, sends a message back. Sean,

3:02

I have

3:04

no interest in becoming anyone's enemy. I

3:07

wanted to understand the process that happened

3:09

to you and Sophia. And

3:13

I'm looking over the investigation files.

3:16

And honestly, there's a reason why

3:18

she was acquitted. And frankly,

3:20

I also am hearing a somewhat

3:23

implicit threat about being made

3:25

enemies. Shane,

3:28

nobody's trying to make any threats

3:30

towards you, right? But if

3:32

people attack me, I will defend

3:34

myself. Keep me out

3:37

of whatever it is that all

3:39

people are doing. Keep me

3:42

completely out of it, or anyone

3:44

will regret trying to drag me

3:46

back into their bullshit. And

3:52

then Sean calls Shane,

3:54

and the two brothers talk

3:56

in real time. Very

4:00

simply, Shane, Shane, I love you, my little

4:02

brother. Whatever fucking said it, thought said it, thought

4:04

it, but let me tell you something, bro. Sophia,

4:08

got a full agenda, my brother. You'll

4:15

always be able to tell your side of

4:18

the story. No one's taking that away from

4:20

you, but Sophia is gonna tell her story.

4:22

I'm gonna tell my story, Sean, like, you

4:24

know, for that little compartmentalized nugget, and I'm

4:27

not going after anything, but it's a part

4:29

of the story. This

4:35

nugget, as Shane calls it, is the

4:37

reason he hasn't wanted to talk to

4:40

Sean for all these years. Look, it

4:42

hurts. I don't enjoy exactly

4:44

sharing private details with the public, but...

4:46

I'm not gonna have anything to do

4:48

with anything, but I'm sitting here and

4:50

I'm listening all... What the brothers are

4:52

talking around is something from

4:54

their childhood that's unresolved, something

4:57

that informs the way Shane views Sean,

4:59

that he hasn't been able to ignore

5:02

as he considers which of his siblings

5:04

to believe. Shane

5:06

has tried to compartmentalize this, set

5:08

it aside, but if there's

5:10

any chance of him believing Sean's story about

5:13

the murder, Shane has

5:15

to confront him about this first. The

5:17

guy fucking... He

5:23

hurt me growing up, and

5:25

even I was still willing to give

5:28

him the benefit of the doubt around

5:30

murder. I'm

5:41

Amory Sievert, from WBUR

5:43

and ZSP Media. This

5:45

is Beyond All Repair. Chapter

5:48

nine, someone is lying.

6:00

The day before Shane referenced this unresolved

6:02

issue from their childhood to Sean on

6:04

the phone, I spoke to

6:06

Sean about it, with Shane's permission.

6:08

There is one other thing that I'd love

6:11

for you to just respond to, because it's

6:13

more serious and you deserve a chance to

6:15

respond. Shane told

6:17

me that Sean sexually assaulted

6:19

him throughout his childhood. I'm

6:21

sorry? A reminder here

6:23

that Sean is six years older than

6:26

Shane. I'm told that this went

6:28

on for quite a while. So,

6:32

you're saying that my little brother? Yes.

6:35

My gay little

6:38

brother? Sean has an

6:40

opinion on Shane's sexuality, clearly. But

6:43

yes, I tell him, his

6:45

brother has told me painful accounts of

6:47

being sexually assaulted by him. Wow,

6:50

it just gets more

6:52

interesting. Most

6:59

of my adolescence and childhood

7:01

life, I was not around

7:03

my little brother, because I was living

7:05

with my father. So, how

7:08

and when could something like that have even

7:10

happened? Shane

7:14

says the first time it happened

7:16

was during this period, actually, after

7:19

he and Sophia and their mother had

7:21

already moved out. Sophia

7:23

and Shane went to their dad's house in the

7:25

Bronx together for a visit. Shane

7:28

doesn't remember exactly how old he was at the

7:30

time. They were Jehovah's Witnesses

7:32

then, so he didn't celebrate birthdays.

7:35

But he was in elementary school, and

7:37

he ended up alone with Sean in his

7:39

room. When you heard

7:41

Shane say earlier that Sean hurt him,

7:43

that's the least explicit I've heard him

7:46

when talking about the abuse. He

7:48

alleges it involved unwelcome self-exposure

7:50

by Sean, unwanted touching,

7:53

and penetration. Shane

7:56

says that even from the first instance, he told

7:58

Sean he didn't think what he was doing. was

8:00

doing was right. Sean

8:02

would tell him it was

8:04

just a dream, that what

8:06

was happening wasn't really happening.

8:08

The last time it happened, Shane says,

8:11

was in the months before Marlene Johnson

8:13

was murdered. Shane was 13, Sean was 19.

8:24

What I would tell you is just look at how

8:26

their lives are

8:28

turning out. And

8:31

that alone should say something. What

8:34

do you mean by that with regards to

8:36

Shane? Because I know Sophia has a, you

8:38

know, she has a very particular circumstance, but

8:40

how do you think Shane's life has turned

8:42

out? Hey,

8:44

you know what? For the

8:46

most part, you know what, I'm proud of him. I

8:48

told him, I said, dude, you know,

8:50

gay, you're gay, whatever. But you see,

8:52

this is what happens, you know, I'm

8:55

too nice. I think I'm too nice.

8:57

I got to stay away from me. I got to stay complete. First,

9:00

the girl tries to make me look like a murderer. Now

9:03

her, her little, oh my God, I

9:05

couldn't even believe I was being like

9:07

this. Horrible, horrible, horrible.

9:11

Just to be clear, you deny this completely.

9:13

You deny ever having. Of course not. Of

9:15

course not. Okay. What the hell? What

9:18

the hell? What the hell? Now

9:25

Shane has made it clear to me

9:27

that he doesn't equate Sean's alleged actions

9:30

toward him as a child with murder.

9:32

My brother sexually assaulted me and I

9:35

can state that because I

9:37

experienced it. And even I can draw

9:39

the distinction of he might not

9:41

be a murderer. Is he a child molester?

9:43

Yes. Is he a person who

9:46

can cause physical harm? Yes, he can. But

9:48

Shane also thought this first conversation with

9:50

Sean in many years might be an

9:52

opportunity for them to clear the air.

9:55

Shane was willing to forgive Sean and maybe

9:57

even believe what he had to say

10:00

about Marlene Johnson's murder if

10:02

Sean admitted to the abuse. As

10:05

it started to sink in that that would not

10:07

be happening. And as Shane

10:09

listened to voice messages from Sean and

10:12

heard things like And as it deals with

10:14

anything that you said against me, I forgive

10:16

you. And I understand. Sean

10:19

forgiving him. Shane

10:21

had heard and had enough.

10:25

He sent one more audio message back

10:27

to Sean. Sean, the only interactions that we've

10:29

had with one another. You're

10:32

telling me that I'm lying. You're

10:35

referring to it as a lie. Because

10:38

you won't even acknowledge it. But

10:42

it really doesn't make me trust you Sean. And

10:45

in fact, it makes me kind of angry. Because

10:47

I know that you're telling me that something

10:50

that I experienced is a lie. And

10:52

you're very good at holding that truth

10:54

to you and communicating that. And

10:57

that really fucked with

11:00

me Sean. Because when I told dad all those years

11:02

ago, do you know that he went around

11:04

telling people that he took me to a doctor who said

11:07

that they couldn't show anything so I'm a

11:10

liar? There

11:15

are many themes in this larger story.

11:18

Memory is one for sure. Especially

11:20

given that the events in question

11:23

from allegations of abuse to murder.

11:25

They all happened more than 20 years ago. But

11:28

maybe just as important is everyone's

11:31

relationship to the truth. I'd

11:33

read the Coriah family psychological evaluation we

11:36

heard earlier in the series. I'd

11:38

heard from Shane and Sophia that Sean

11:40

believes his own lies. And

11:43

that he learned that from the

11:45

master, their dad, George. Hello? Hi,

11:47

is this George? Speaking?

11:49

I felt like I needed to talk to him myself.

11:52

How are you? I'm

11:54

taking it easy. Wondering where the world is going right

11:56

now while we are in it. Wondering

11:58

where the world is going? Where do you

12:00

worry it's going? You

12:03

know, I don't want to say I see or

12:05

predict, but for some reason I got to get a

12:07

feeling about things. I'm going to talk about it. I

12:11

see it happen. Many people who know me will tell you that

12:13

even for the world to attend to write back. George

12:15

is saying here that he had a premonition about

12:18

9-11 before it happened. And

12:22

that he called his ex-wife, Grace, in 2001

12:24

to warn her that their kids were going

12:28

to be involved in something bad. Leave

12:31

Vancouver, Washington within two

12:33

months with your children. I swear

12:35

to God if I lie or drop that. I

12:37

said they're going to jail for a crime going

12:40

to belong to them and it will be murder.

12:42

You're saying that a couple months before the

12:44

murder happened, you had a premonition that there

12:46

was going to be a murder and that

12:48

your son and daughter were going to be

12:50

either involved or blamed for it? Yes.

12:53

Yes. George

12:57

still doesn't believe Sophia or Sean

12:59

committed the actual murder, but

13:01

he does believe Sean's story that there

13:03

was a third person at the scene.

13:05

Someone only Sophia would be able to

13:08

identify. George pins the

13:10

murder on this elusive third person,

13:13

but he also doesn't seem to know the

13:15

details about Sean's potential involvement. He had

13:17

he there was Marlene's blood was found

13:20

on him. No. Yes, there

13:22

was. Yes, there was. There

13:24

was a drop of Marlene's blood on his

13:26

boot. And so he was, you know, he

13:29

was there at least. You

13:31

have Sean saying one thing about

13:33

Sophia. You have Sophia saying something

13:35

about Sean and both of

13:37

them. Both of them, George, feel like the

13:39

other one has has betrayed them. I

13:42

would like to give them a lie detector test because let

13:44

me be honest, I have never seen something

13:46

like this in my life, probably all over the world

13:48

in the past. You want to give

13:50

Sean a lie detector test? All of them,

13:52

all of them. But I

13:55

want to say, can

13:59

I ask, were you. What kind of a tough dad

14:01

were you? Were you a strict dad with your children?

14:04

No, the most important thing I will do.

14:07

No smoke, no drinking, no

14:09

sleep out, no bring

14:11

no friend apart easier. Sophia

14:14

and Shane have said that it was a pretty,

14:16

there was a lot of name

14:18

calling and yelling in the house growing up.

14:22

And that you would call your

14:24

sons things like thieves and

14:26

you would call Shane slurs,

14:28

but because of his

14:31

sexuality. No, no, no, no,

14:33

no, no, no, no. Would

14:36

you ever throw things in the house?

14:38

Did you have kind of a temper? No,

14:41

man. What would I throw? No. Obviously,

14:43

I'm guessing now. Why would I throw something in

14:46

my house? I don't know. I'm just, I'm putting

14:48

it to you because these are things that have been

14:50

said to me. I've heard that it was a pretty turbulent

14:52

household to grow up in and that there was a

14:54

lot of yelling and name calling. No,

14:56

no, no, no. There was nothing

14:58

like that. Nothing

15:01

like that. Okay. So

15:03

is there anything that could have been interpreted like

15:05

that? Because I don't know why they would, I

15:07

don't know why they would make something like that

15:09

up. My heart, between you and

15:11

I, I am wondering myself,

15:14

I will leave a message for Miss Sophie. I

15:17

said, you have to disappoint us. Change

15:21

the way of life. Stop it. Stop lying. And

15:24

Sophia, or Miss Sophie, as George

15:26

calls her here, forwarded that

15:28

and dozens of other messages from

15:31

her father to me. Your

15:33

days are numbered if you don't change. Please

15:37

stop your bullshit. Get

15:40

up and back if you want to live to see your son. If

15:46

you want to live to see your son,

15:49

George says. Seeing

15:51

a shot at meeting her son, Ethan,

15:53

is Sophia's main reason for wanting to

15:56

revisit the murder of her mother-in-law, her

15:58

son's grandmother. to

16:00

write the narrative ship, she might say.

16:03

But after my conversations with George and

16:05

Sean, Sophia started getting

16:07

a lot more of these voicemails from

16:09

her father. No wicked, corrupt,

16:13

covetous, vindictive. Which

16:16

I imagine has only made the hurdle

16:18

between her and her own child feel

16:20

higher. If the family

16:23

she knows is against her, what

16:25

chance does she have with the son who

16:28

doesn't? If it was not my

16:30

daughter, I'd keep a million miles away from you.

16:33

And Sophia wasn't the only one being

16:35

barraged, as you may remember from the

16:37

very beginning of this series. Mr.

16:40

Shane, good morning. How are you doing? Listen

16:42

to me carefully. If

16:44

you do not want to get yourself a

16:46

lawsuit, stop joining with

16:48

Sophie to accuse people. You don't know

16:51

nothing. You are now ready for

16:53

what will come down if you don't stop your nonsense

16:55

and keep away. It's hard

16:57

to know whether George is foreseeing bad

16:59

outcomes for Shane and Sophia in these

17:01

messages or if he's threatening

17:04

to create them. But it

17:06

doesn't feel good knowing that I might have

17:08

stirred the pot just in trying to hear

17:10

him and Sean out. George

17:16

did say something that resonated with me,

17:18

though. That he wants a sign as

17:20

to which one of his children is being

17:22

honest about Marlene's murder. I

17:25

did too. I wasn't sure I

17:27

believed any of the versions Sophia and Sean had

17:29

given at this point. But

17:31

I was and am sure that

17:34

the truth lies with one of them. Okay,

17:38

so I have officially

17:40

talked to Sean and George. Ugh.

17:45

Ugh. In

17:48

a minute. A

17:58

gruesome scandal at the nation's most

18:00

prestigious university shines a light

18:02

on a macabre and lucrative

18:04

world of buying and selling

18:06

human remains. Human body parts

18:09

taken by a manager at the Harvard

18:11

Medical School morgue and then sold to

18:13

customers online. So my first skull is

18:15

right there on the top shelf. That's

18:18

my first and my favorite. I'm reporter

18:20

Ali Jarmani and this story raises some

18:23

tough questions. How should we treat the

18:25

dead and who gets to decide? There

18:27

should be some middle ground where

18:29

we treat deceased tissues differently than

18:31

we treat old refrigerators. This

18:34

is Postmortem, the stolen bodies of

18:36

Harvard, a new season of WBUR's

18:38

Last Scene. Listen and follow Last

18:40

Scene wherever you get your podcasts.

18:49

Real quick before we get back to the show, I know

18:52

you listen to Beyond All Repair, but

18:55

do you follow the show? Are you following

18:57

the show in your podcast app or subscribe

18:59

to it or whatever the terminology is in

19:01

your app of choice? I don't

19:03

want you missing any new episodes as they come out or

19:05

having them served up to you out of order. And

19:08

I don't want you losing your place in an episode if you

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need to pause it part of the way through. So

19:13

do me another favor, will you? Look for

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the little follow button or a plus sign

19:17

button in your app. Follow

19:19

the show officially wherever you listen.

19:22

And thank you. Gosh, I

19:24

want you to know I'm so nervous

19:26

about this. I've been sick with anxiety

19:28

over it and probably

19:30

just because it's going to hurt my feelings. I'm

19:33

talking to Sophia a few days after speaking

19:35

to Sean and her father George for the

19:38

first time. She's been

19:40

receiving a tsunami of voice messages from

19:42

her dad in the intervening days that make

19:44

it pretty clear where he stands. It's

19:47

a shame to see how you're destroying your life.

19:49

You're looking for trouble. You're going to get trouble.

19:51

Try to lie to set up

19:53

your own brother. Stop this bullshit. Stop

19:55

living in a dream. I

20:03

don't think my dad will ever believe that

20:05

my brother did it. You can show him

20:07

videotape evidence and he'll say that's the Johnson's

20:10

in costume or

20:12

the tape was edited. It's not going to matter. Meanwhile,

20:15

that brother, Sean, is making it

20:17

clear to the youngest brother, Shane,

20:20

that he's not going down for Sophia's mother-in-law's

20:22

murder 22 years later. If

20:25

she puts me in a situation where it's me, I don't

20:27

see it at home. Sophia

20:30

feels the same, but about her

20:32

family. Her dad, her

20:34

mom, Shane, they can't

20:36

be on the fence about who did what

20:38

anymore, even if that

20:40

means cutting off contact with them forever.

20:43

It's him or me. And if it's

20:45

him, that's fine. Because it

20:47

can't be both. There

20:50

is not a world that can exist where you think we're

20:52

both good people. There

20:55

just isn't. I

21:00

met an impasse too, with different versions

21:02

of events swirling around in my head.

21:05

The latest of which, from Sean, I

21:08

share with Sophia the shadow

21:10

in the background he told me about. He

21:12

said there was a third person there. He

21:14

didn't see who it was. But

21:16

he saw... He said there was a third person

21:19

in the same room at the time that Marlene

21:21

was being killed or after she

21:23

died. He said that as

21:25

he was coming down the stairs, he saw

21:27

a shadow of another person, saw another person

21:29

flee, but he didn't see who it was.

21:33

And what he says to me is that

21:36

you, Sophia, are the only person on earth

21:38

who knows who that third person was. Yeah.

21:43

Okay. I

21:49

love the new twist. I do. I

21:51

love the new twist. The

21:54

new twist that Sean, remember, would say

21:56

is neither a twist nor is it

21:58

new. of it

22:00

being a part of his original story for the

22:02

detectives is indiscernible. But

22:05

as Sophia and I talk, the

22:07

new twist loses its humor. Because

22:10

the more details Sean offers up, the

22:13

more certain Sophia becomes that he is the

22:16

only person on Earth who knows what happened

22:18

to Marlene. The more hurt

22:20

she is by the story he told about

22:22

her, that he continues to tell about her.

22:26

It is not just that you killed her, it is

22:29

that you traded my life for your fuckup.

22:32

And then you exploded a bomb

22:34

in the middle of our family and

22:37

you made it seem as though I did it. Someone

22:41

is lying. But who? What

22:44

if that liar is so convincing they've

22:46

convinced themselves of their own lies? And

22:49

what if that convincing liar isn't Sean or

22:51

George as Shane and Sophia had warned me

22:53

they'd be? What

22:55

if it's Sophia? If

23:01

there was a theme for what

23:03

both Sean and George told me,

23:07

there's something you are not fessing up to. That

23:10

you know more than you've

23:12

said and you're

23:15

lying to yourself and you're

23:17

lying to me. And I

23:20

don't know where the truth is right now. But

23:23

I do believe with my whole

23:26

heart that if

23:29

this is not the truth coming forward, the

23:32

effort to rebuild,

23:35

to re-explain, to kind

23:38

of reconfigure your life,

23:41

it's not a lost cause. It's

23:44

a harmful one. As

23:50

I listened back to me saying this to Sophia, I

23:53

realized that what started as a statement

23:55

about what Sean and George assert turned

23:58

into me settling into

24:00

the uncomfortable possibility that maybe

24:04

Sophia is lying to me. Maybe

24:07

she has been all along. And

24:17

so, it's time to listen back

24:19

to something else. Something you heard

24:21

near the beginning of this series. But

24:24

the last time Sophia heard it was 20

24:26

years ago, in a courtroom. I

24:29

played it for her in full. This

24:41

is the call Shawn made to Sophia

24:43

on the day of Marlene's funeral, when

24:45

he was already in police custody, and

24:48

she was at home with a house full of

24:50

Marlene's family members. Shawn

24:52

was following a script written by Clark

24:55

County detectives. The excerpts

24:57

you've heard are the parts that stayed with

24:59

me initially. The

25:11

unravelling brother. The unsettled

25:14

sister, who to me seemed genuinely

25:16

shocked at what she was hearing.

25:27

The first time we heard that

25:29

we had any information about the

25:31

call, we were at the

25:33

right place. Maybe I had

25:36

selectively zeroed in on these parts of the call,

25:38

as someone who had heard Sophia's

25:40

side of the story first, and

25:42

wanted to think I wasn't being lied to.

25:45

What stood out to the detectives, the people

25:47

who got useful information from Shawn first and

25:50

were trying to build a case around his

25:52

story, was this. Okay,

25:55

listen, our call is simply being recorded.

26:01

She kept saying, Sean, you

26:04

know the cops are listening. You know the cops are listening.

26:06

You know him. Lead detective Rick

26:08

Buckner. She said that a couple of

26:10

times during the conversation. Sean. I

26:13

told you her position is recorded.

26:16

Her phone position is recorded. She

26:18

can tell her. Yes,

26:20

I said that three

26:23

times. How in the hell would

26:25

she even know that we were listening in? Just

26:28

relax. What Sophia told

26:31

me was that Brad recorded all

26:33

their calls, a product of his

26:35

FBI and communications backgrounds. Brad

26:38

denied this to the detectives, by the way. But

26:41

it almost doesn't matter, because

26:43

the part that was more concerning to

26:45

me in this much later listen-through came

26:47

even before that, when

26:50

Sean mentioned his girlfriend, Susie, who,

26:52

remember, he says drove them over

26:54

to Marlene's house. Marlene,

27:27

don't you think? God,

27:30

that was a terrible call. Yeah.

27:33

Man, I sound so fake.

27:38

Sophia and I went through it, revisiting

27:40

the moments that I felt needed some explaining.

27:43

Ah, okay. Go ahead.

27:46

Okay, so he says, I think they

27:48

know, Sophia. You say, mm-mm. And

27:51

he starts to say, I think they know. And you

27:53

say, don't say anything over the phone. I think they

27:55

know. And

28:02

it really sounds like you know what he's talking

28:05

about and like you're trying to shut him up

28:07

in that moment Yeah,

28:09

I can I could definitely see that Listen

28:15

being and I I'm

28:19

really trying to put myself in that

28:21

moment and Remember it

28:23

and it is not an easy thing to do because

28:26

so much of it Seems

28:28

like a blur I Don't

28:32

know I I honestly didn't

28:35

think he was calling about Marlene

28:37

Johnson's murder There

28:39

would have been no reason for that But

28:42

I knew he did something wrong and I could hear it

28:44

in my own voice. I knew he did something wrong The

28:47

fact that he says, you know, I don't think she's

28:49

been alive for us and

28:51

your reaction is a Big

28:56

sigh instead of What

28:59

are you talking about she's not gonna lie for us lie for

29:01

us about what It's

29:03

like the moments that you're not saying something

29:05

that feel more telling than if

29:08

you did say something I

29:34

It is and I I completely agree with

29:36

you I agree with everything you said it

29:38

looks bad and

29:41

again Of course, I wish

29:43

I did it different and

29:45

I had no idea It was

29:47

being recorded the way it was being

29:50

recorded that it was a

29:52

wiretap and anything like that I just

29:55

I don't know You

30:04

Honestly, Emory, even conversations that

30:07

I have with you

30:09

and I sometimes, if my anxiety is so

30:11

high and I'm in a different place, it's

30:14

difficult for me to retain what you have

30:16

said. And at times, even

30:18

though I can answer you, it is white

30:20

noise to me. And

30:22

that's really what this sounds like

30:24

to me, an auto response to

30:27

a problem person at a very high

30:29

stress time. And

30:32

I wasn't then trying to hide or

30:34

cover anything up as I'm not now.

30:37

And of course, I wish that call had

30:39

gone differently. I wish I had

30:41

the right words, but I didn't realize

30:43

that I was being at that time

30:46

to me framed for someone's murder. Now

30:52

that Sophia does know exactly what Sean was

30:54

doing to her then with an audience of

30:56

detectives, what she says Sean and

30:59

her father are doing to her now with

31:01

an audience of me and you, she

31:03

made sure she had the right words when I

31:06

suggested that they might be telling the truth, that

31:09

she is lying to me flat out

31:11

or by omission. I told you

31:14

everything I possibly could that I know to be

31:16

true. And if there's

31:18

something out there that's missing that you have

31:20

not heard from me, it's because I don't

31:22

know it. So definitely

31:25

I agree with everything you said. This

31:27

would be more harmful than anything if

31:30

I'm telling a lie about it,

31:32

but I'm not. And

31:36

I just hope that you can find your

31:38

way to really finding the truth and staying

31:40

on course because they're going to do everything

31:42

they can to distract you. They

31:45

just went. So stay

31:48

the course. I

31:52

did. I kept reading and

31:54

rereading the case file and looking for

31:56

people whose names I'd come across, including

32:00

another detective, Kevin Harper.

32:03

Sophia had told me that in

32:05

2010, eight years after Marlene's murder,

32:08

Detective Harper had come to see her

32:10

at a federal facility in California, where

32:13

she was being held for trying to

32:15

come into the U.S., despite having been

32:17

deported after her second trial. Sophia

32:20

told him she had new information to

32:22

offer about the murder. But

32:24

when I finally tracked down the now

32:27

former Detective Kevin Harper and asked him

32:29

about this visit, he didn't

32:31

remember anything of value coming out

32:33

of this conversation with Sophia. No

32:36

admissions of any kind. A waste

32:38

of time, Harper said. But

32:41

he also told me, if you ever run across my

32:43

notes, I would love to

32:45

reveal because that can trigger all sorts of

32:47

memories for me or the written up the

32:49

report because that I'm sure will

32:51

help trigger my memory. I

32:54

put in a request for that report. But

32:56

with Detective Harper not remembering anything happening during

32:59

that 2010 interview with Sophia,

33:02

I couldn't imagine it really changing anything for

33:04

me. But I got

33:06

it. I read it. And

33:08

I was wrong. I

33:10

just, I didn't. Fucking

33:13

God. The

33:17

report in a minute. Okay.

33:27

I don't even know where to put this. So

33:33

that's the pick us both up

33:35

the best. Nice

33:38

to pick you up more, I think so. This

33:41

is me talking to my husband

33:43

moments after reading Detective Kevin Harper's

33:45

report. The one he

33:47

wrote in 2010 right after hearing the

33:50

new information Sophia had to offer about

33:52

Marlene Johnson's murder. This is

33:54

a full confession. Sophia

33:56

offered Detective Harper not

33:59

a full confession. as you might be

34:01

imagining it, as in Sophia saying she

34:03

physically bludgeoned Marlene to death. To

34:06

me, it was worse than

34:08

that. You know when you see someone you know and

34:10

then you meet their parents for the

34:12

first time and you're like, Oh

34:15

my God, I see your mom

34:18

and your dad coming together. This

34:20

feels like that. This feels

34:22

like Sophia's version today and Sean's

34:24

version on the stand coming together

34:26

in a new version that

34:29

feels truthful. Sophia

34:37

grew up in New York, the report reads.

34:40

Her family is a member of the Jehovah's

34:42

Witness Church. She moved to Vancouver after she,

34:44

okay, yeah, I'm not going to read the

34:46

whole thing. It's 26 pages

34:48

long, so I'll summarize. And

34:51

as I walk you through it, you'll

34:53

hear echoes of the various versions of the

34:55

Day of the Murder that we've heard over

34:57

the course of this series. Sophia's

35:03

narrative for Detective Harper mentions the embezzlement

35:05

and the debt she and Brad were

35:07

in leading up to her mother-in-law's murder.

35:10

Sophia says Marlene offered to loan

35:12

her money, that she had

35:14

hidden emergency money for when she left her

35:16

marriage. Sophia turned it down,

35:18

but the morning of the murder when Sean

35:20

and his girlfriend Susie were over at their

35:23

house and Sean was going on about

35:25

how he really needed the money for his divorce.

35:28

Sophia says her mind went to

35:30

Marlene's hidden stash. So

35:32

she made up a story about having money in

35:34

the pocket of a coat that she'd left at

35:36

her in-law's house. And she convinced

35:38

Sean and Susie to drive her over there to

35:40

get it. Just like Sean had

35:42

told the jury. She asked

35:44

if Susie and I can take

35:47

her over there so that she can pick up her

35:49

coat. Sophia's news story

35:51

matches the one Sean told on the

35:53

stand for a stretch. She

35:55

went into the Johnson's house alone, came out

35:57

several minutes later without having found the court.

36:00

quote unquote, coat, and

36:02

the three of them drove off. But

36:04

she convinced Sean to go back to the

36:06

Johnson's house with her. Susie

36:08

took them there and then drove

36:10

off, quote, with an attitude, like

36:13

it was hinted in the wiretapped phone call

36:16

between the siblings. When

36:24

he got back to the Johnson's house,

36:26

Sophia tells Detective Harper. She told Sean

36:29

about Marlene's stash of money. They

36:31

both started looking for it. They

36:33

couldn't find it. Sophia says

36:36

they sat down on the steps leading

36:38

up to Marlene's bedroom, feeling defeated. And

36:41

then, quote, as casually

36:43

as I'm talking to you, Sophia tells

36:45

Harper, she says to Sean, maybe

36:48

we should just kill her. Sean's

36:52

response? OK. Sophia

36:55

told Sean that Marlene's life insurance money

36:57

would, quote, go a long way

36:59

with Brad. If anything would have happened to her,

37:03

to Marlene, who inherited Brad's

37:05

office, who's made

37:07

the Brad, Sophia Johnson. Sophia

37:10

says she told Sean that she didn't

37:12

want Marlene to hurt when she died.

37:16

OK, Sean replied again. Then

37:18

the siblings went down to the basement together,

37:21

where Marlene would be coming in. Sophia

37:23

says she told Sean to make Marlene

37:26

think he was collecting gambling debts that

37:28

her husband Richard owed. A

37:31

detail we heard Sophia mention on the

37:33

stand in her second tree. She's

37:35

saying that she's experimenting. Can you tell her

37:38

that Richard had outstanding gambling

37:40

debt and cash debt? As

37:42

they waited for Marlene to come home,

37:44

Sophia tells Detective Harper that she saw

37:47

Sean pick up a fireplace poker and

37:49

start swinging it around. He

37:51

had nervous energy, he told her. Sophia

37:54

says she knew Sean was going to

37:56

kill Marlene because, quote, I

37:58

knew what I had asked him to do. Sean

38:01

waited in the room where Marlene would be

38:03

entering, Sophia says. She waited

38:05

in the next room, where the sliding glass door was,

38:08

nervously walking in a circle. I

38:11

just thought, you know, I got a

38:13

little started pacing. When

38:16

the siblings heard the garage door open,

38:18

Sophia says she went out the sliding

38:20

glass door and waited outside so she

38:23

wouldn't be able to see or hear

38:25

anything. Soon she

38:27

saw Sean through the glass, she says, and

38:29

he told her they had to go. Was

38:32

Marlene still alive, she asked?

38:35

I don't think so, she'll answer. She

38:38

drove out from the area and she told me

38:40

a couple more times just to keep my head

38:42

down. Unlike

38:45

Sean's story, Sophia tells Detective Herper

38:47

that Sean drove Marlene's van back

38:49

to her house, not her. He

38:52

changed into some of Brad's clothes. And

38:54

I mentioned to Sean, hey, you know, these are

38:56

going out for donations. He

38:59

took off using a lamp. Meanwhile,

39:01

Sophia tells Herper, quote, I

39:04

started covering myself. She

39:07

says she started leaving messages on Marlene's phone

39:09

to try to make it seem like she

39:11

wasn't involved. Harper writes, Sophia

39:14

said even though she knew Marlene had to

39:16

be dead, she was irritated

39:18

that she wasn't answering the phone. Even

39:21

more so, Sophia says, when Marlene did

39:24

not, could not, show

39:26

up for their mother, daughter-in-law lunch

39:28

date. Why isn't she answering? I

39:30

know she didn't forget. I felt

39:32

a complete irritation. Sophia

39:35

tells Harper that she lied under oath

39:37

in her second trial, that

39:39

her lawyer, Therese, didn't know it, but

39:42

that she also didn't want her to testify.

39:45

But Sophia tells Harper, quote, I

39:47

was really ready to put on a show for the jury.

39:50

I didn't know anything myself, but we

39:52

didn't know. And

39:55

then Sophia tells Harper that she didn't

39:57

like his colleague, Detective Rick Buckner. that

40:00

Buckner accused her of committing the

40:03

actual murder. You know, I know this often. We

40:05

know you killed Marlene. Just tell her what happened.

40:07

Tell her, tell her. Harper writes,

40:09

quote, Sophia said that she

40:11

could tell him truthfully, I wasn't in the room. I

40:13

didn't touch her. Because

40:16

she wasn't in the room. She

40:18

didn't touch Marlene. Did you kill

40:21

Marlene Jensen? I

40:23

did not. Sophia says that she

40:25

didn't know how badly Marlene was beaten

40:27

until trial. When she first

40:29

saw pictures of the scene, that it made her

40:31

sick. And that what

40:33

bothers her most, Sophia says, is that

40:36

Marlene would have loaned her the money.

40:52

Even if she had been offered a deal

40:54

to testify against Sean, Sophia told Harper, she

40:57

wouldn't have done it back then. She,

40:59

quote, wasn't ready to accept

41:01

responsibility for her involvement, she

41:03

says. And

41:10

then, in the last few pages of

41:12

this 2010 report, Sophia

41:15

put this confession in her own handwriting. As

41:17

I read through

41:19

it, I heard the

41:21

voices of all the people who'd warned

41:24

me about Sophia. No

41:26

wicked, corrupt, religious, vindictive. She's

41:28

such a wicked person, you

41:31

have no clue. She played

41:33

the whole damn family. She

41:35

is the person who committed,

41:37

who murdered my wife. She

41:39

has a short temper, and she's a

41:42

lot stronger than you. Fairly inappropriate in

41:44

a general to be talking about somebody's

41:46

will. Because it just means that Sophia's

41:48

still lying. I

41:55

just, I didn't, oh, fucking

41:58

God. We're

42:00

back to the moments after

42:02

I finished reading Sophia's confession for the first

42:04

time Thinking out loud

42:07

to my husband who silently watched my

42:09

brain explode as I tried to process

42:11

what I'd just seen All

42:13

I've wanted is to know what fucking happened

42:17

and this makes me feel like I know what happened.

42:19

I Had

42:22

a report that seemed forgotten about

42:25

why is this just this is just sitting in

42:27

their files That told a

42:29

new version of events for the day of the

42:31

murder and this feels like the truth The

42:34

pieces really did seem to be coming together

42:37

Like Sophia really had been trying to come

42:39

clean to Detective Harper in 2010 I

42:42

don't think that she can make this make sense

42:45

beyond what she says here But she's gonna make

42:47

this make sense if I go to her and

42:49

say guess what I read last night fucking

42:52

confession In

42:54

your handwriting and once I wrapped my

42:56

head around all that Where

42:59

my mind went immediately next this

43:01

is gonna fuck him up. What's the shame more

43:04

so than it fucked me up It's his fucking sister

43:20

Yeah, I was mad Because

43:23

just days before I got that copy

43:25

of Detective Harper's report from the Clark

43:27

County, Washington Public Records office Shane

43:30

had sent me a recording of a phone call

43:32

he'd made How's it

43:34

going to his sister He

43:42

had just finished going through the nearly 2,000

43:45

pages of the investigative file that I had at

43:47

that point and he was

43:49

calling to tell Sophia that he'd reached a

43:51

verdict of His own I want

43:53

to start off with I I

43:55

love you so much and no matter what happens I'm

43:58

gonna be there with you. I don't think that that

44:00

you committed the murder. I'm conclusively stating that.

44:02

Like, based on all of the evidence that

44:04

I've gone over, I don't think

44:06

that you murdered Marlene Johnson at all. And I know

44:08

that you don't even have to worry about that legally,

44:10

but it is something that- Sophia

44:13

can tell how anxious Shane is as he

44:15

rambles on, and she jumps in. All

44:17

right, so just take a breath for a

44:19

minute, and I want to say thank you.

44:22

And yes, while it does not

44:24

serve as evidence, whether you believe me

44:26

or not, just

44:28

for our relationship and

44:32

everything else, it's important that the people that

44:34

I'm around, me

44:36

personally, does not think that I

44:38

can commit something so

44:41

heinous and so horrible that destroyed

44:43

every life around it that I touched.

44:46

For me, that is seriously important

44:48

because that's not who I am.

44:52

No, Sophia, I believe you. I know, and

44:54

look, I'll tell you something. That's not who

44:56

I am, Sophia says. I

44:58

believe you, Shane says. My

45:02

heart sank lower and lower as

45:04

my eyes traced one sentence of

45:06

Sophia's narrow cursive over and over.

45:10

We should just kill her. What

45:13

the hell would Shane believe now? Next

45:20

time I show him the report.

45:23

This is hard for me to read, and- Oh,

45:26

God. And questions for

45:29

the detective who didn't remember what

45:31

Sophia had told him. Is

45:33

it long and boring? No. Are

45:35

you sure? And for

45:38

Sophia, this is the version of events

45:40

that you tell him. That

45:43

I tell him? That's

45:46

coming up in the final chapter

45:48

of Beyond All Repair. The

46:18

Beyond All Repair is a production

46:21

of WBUR, Boston's NPR, and ZSP

46:23

Media. It's written and

46:25

reported by me, Amory Siebertsen. It's

46:27

produced by Sophie Kudner. And

46:30

special thanks to Troy Brennelson from Oregon

46:32

Public Broadcasting, you to man. Mix

46:35

and sound design by Paul Vykes,

46:37

production manager of WBUR podcasts, and

46:39

original scoring by Paul Vykes and

46:42

Matt Reed. Theme and

46:44

credits music by me. Our managing

46:46

producers are Sumitajoshi for WBUR

46:48

and Liz Styles of ZSP Media.

46:51

Our editors and executive producers

46:53

are Ben Brock Johnson of

46:55

WBUR and Zach Stewart-Pontier of

46:57

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46:59

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47:08

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