0:00

Kim Kranz is the quintessential artist,

0:02

and she's perhaps the most well

0:04

known for her oracle decks. Now

0:06

what is an oracle deck? An

0:09

oracle deck is based around this original

0:11

concept of the tarot, and the tarot

0:13

are different archetypes that have been honed

0:16

down through time to

0:18

provide guidance for an individual at

0:20

any stage of their life real

0:22

time. How does it work? Well

0:25

it works because you tap into

0:27

your extra sensorial open

0:30

channel where there's something weaving through you

0:32

that allows you to choose the just

0:34

right card for the just right moment

0:36

to give you some guidance for your

0:39

life. Now Kim has

0:41

taken the tarot and said, what

0:43

if we make other oracle decks?

0:45

And one of these decks is

0:47

the archetypes deck. And this archetypes

0:49

deck is what guides our journey

0:51

today, a journey that explores the

0:53

archetype of the shaman the mountain,

0:55

the mask, all

0:58

looking at where are we

1:00

going, what are we doing, how do

1:02

we guide not only this podcast but

1:04

our life, how do we open up

1:06

our creative process to its fullest potential.

1:09

All of these tools are available to

1:11

us, and when we give God, Spirit,

1:13

Mystery a chance, we

1:16

give ourselves the best chance

1:18

to live our fullest, funnest,

1:21

most creative, most outrageous life

1:23

possible. So I'm incredibly excited

1:25

to introduce Kim Kranz. All

1:34

right, here we are Kim. We're

1:37

here. We're here, we're doing it. And

1:40

on our table in front of us, we've

1:42

picked four cards from your

1:44

archetype deck leading us

1:46

through a story. But

1:48

before we explore this story about the

1:51

shaman, the mountain, the mask and Kairos,

1:54

I want to talk about what the hell

1:56

is a deck and how did you make it and

1:58

what caused you to to have

2:00

the impulse to make these oracle decks

2:02

in the first place. First,

2:05

thank you for having me, Aubrey. I'm

2:07

so psyched about where we're gonna go. We're gonna start

2:09

with the decks, but then we're gonna go. For

2:12

sure. For out. I'll start

2:14

with the origin of the tarot deck, which was back

2:16

in 2012. It was

2:18

a self-publish, which a lot of people don't know,

2:20

but I drew the

2:22

tarot deck because I couldn't find a deck that

2:25

I loved. I've been a maker of

2:27

drawings and a lover of symbols since

2:29

I was a kid. And

2:31

when I tried to find a deck that carried

2:33

the resonance of the concepts of the

2:36

cards, I was like, these are falling flat for

2:38

me. A lot of the

2:40

classic decks that I now love, but it

2:42

was that lack of, that

2:45

really drove me to make the deck in

2:48

the beginning. And then I

2:50

made the deck. I printed a thousand

2:52

copies as, you know, on my

2:55

own, just out of my art studio and

2:57

shipped them out to people. And the first thousand sold

2:59

and the second thousand sold, and then on and on

3:01

and on. And I

3:04

was kind

3:06

of the guardian of that deck. I had a feeling

3:08

it was gonna go really wide from the beginning. I

3:10

could tell what was happening just

3:13

on social media. It was like the same

3:15

time that Instagram was really like blasting off

3:17

and people were

3:19

interacting with the cards and posting them. And so

3:22

this is the classic tarot 78

3:24

cards, right? The thing

3:26

about the tarot as opposed to Oracle decks

3:28

is such a good question and people don't

3:30

always understand this distinction. The

3:33

tarot deck is set, it's 78 specific cards. It's

3:36

not up for interpretation of what

3:38

cards you draw or don't draw. It's

3:42

a system. No remixes available. Exactly.

3:45

And then with the following

3:47

three decks, those

3:49

didn't have systems. So I drew the tarot

3:51

deck, it did really well. And then I

3:53

was like, wait, why is this doing so

3:55

well? It was basically my question. Like what's

3:57

fueling this? And a lot of people... I

4:00

responded to the deck because it had so many

4:02

animals in it. Instead of

4:04

people that can sometimes allow

4:07

people to separate from the image of like, oh,

4:09

that's not me. I'm not that age. I'm not

4:11

that race. I'm not that person. Or even that sex.

4:13

Exactly. So the

4:16

animal, the creatures get us out of

4:18

that mindset into a more symbolic realm

4:20

and an intuitive realm. So

4:22

that's when I drew. Because us woo woo people

4:25

will much rather be a wolf than

4:27

try to be somebody of a different age

4:29

than us. Exactly. We can't

4:31

cross that barrier. Yeah, no, no, no. That's too hard.

4:33

That's the limit of our spirituality right there. Even if

4:35

they have the wrong shoes. Oh, yeah, it can be

4:37

a bear. They're like, I don't wear those kind

4:39

of shoes, actually. Like, I'm not like a goddess. I'm

4:41

not a shorts person, but I'm totally,

4:43

totally am I a muskrat person for

4:46

100%. That is

4:48

exactly what we're so into what we

4:50

are not. And then we become like

4:52

super niche and super separated from

4:54

everybody. Even our friends

4:56

like, I don't wear Jordans, you know? Okay,

5:01

so then I drew

5:03

the animal spirit deck. And then I was still

5:05

like, well, what is fueling this? What's the underlying

5:07

force? I was thinking about it if it was

5:10

a car. Like if the tarot is a jag,

5:13

like you're driving it. Well, what's

5:15

the engine of this system? And

5:18

that's when I started to study depth psychology and

5:20

learn about the archetypes. And I was like, oh

5:22

shit, the engine of the

5:25

tarot is archetypes. It's

5:27

78 really honed

5:29

archetypes that have been

5:31

selected over time by

5:34

the people, for the people. And

5:36

if certain archetypes aren't that resonant

5:39

for all people, they're eventually gonna drift

5:43

out of what is now the 78 tarot cards. So

5:49

then I made the archetypes deck. And

5:51

then I was like, but what's underneath the archetypes?

5:54

What's fueling those

5:56

forces? And

5:58

then I started to study depth psychology. I study alchemy

6:01

and I was like, oh, the elements,

6:04

if you think about the car, there's

6:06

the spark in the engine is igniting.

6:09

So there's always drawing back

6:11

to the pure elements in

6:13

a certain arrangement, create an

6:15

archetype, and then that takes its

6:17

shape in the world. So

6:20

that is really kind of a map as to how

6:22

the four decks came to be, the last one being

6:24

the alchemy deck. And it's

6:27

interesting to think about the archetypes. If

6:29

you drop into like the warrior archetype

6:32

in your mind, in your imagination, thinking

6:36

about that arrangement of elements, like

6:38

what does the warrior have in terms of fire?

6:40

Like what kind of fire does the warrior have?

6:42

How much water is there? It's not that much

6:44

water. Little

6:47

bit, but not that much. There's strong earth and

6:49

there's a lot of like- And

6:51

the beautiful part is this is

6:53

up for everybody's individual interpretation. Exactly.

6:55

So I have a strong affinity

6:58

and spiritual identification with

7:00

the dragon. So then I've had to understand and

7:02

extrapolate, all right, what is dragon fire for me?

7:05

Like, and the breath that

7:08

I can use as dragon fire, what does

7:10

that breath do? Is it a breath to

7:12

destroy? Well, destroy only that

7:14

which is ready to be destroyed, but to

7:16

heal all things that are underneath it. It's

7:19

not like in the movies where

7:21

like Daenerys says, Dracarys and everything's

7:23

fucking laid to waste. It's

7:25

like, no, no, no, the dragon fire of

7:28

this archetype for me is

7:30

it sets all things right. So if

7:32

a delicate flower needs nourishment,

7:34

the dragon fire will help the flower

7:37

nourish, right? Like it's like, this is

7:39

the image that I have, which is

7:41

probably contrary to a lot of different

7:44

archetypal understandings of that, but there's permission

7:46

within it to interpret

7:48

based upon what you desire and

7:50

your own imagination. Exactly. And it

7:52

gets super subtle and nuanced. So

7:54

like to go back to the

7:56

warrior and correct myself around water

7:58

on the... battlefield,

8:00

the warrior doesn't

8:03

really need the water so much, but after

8:05

the battle, if the warrior is not weeping

8:07

with their fellow warriors is a problem. So

8:10

it's like learning how and when, just like

8:12

you're saying, to like understand

8:14

the elements in a deeper way and say

8:16

like, well, now I need to engage this

8:18

and now I need to allow this one

8:20

in. And then if

8:22

you look through any of the archetypes, it's just kind

8:25

of like an interesting exercise to say like, well, what

8:27

is the mother's fire? When

8:29

you think about the womb, it's like that slow

8:31

nine months of warmth. That's

8:33

really different than like the

8:35

arrow that has the fire that's like lit.

8:38

That's going to... Yeah. Yeah,

8:40

totally. There's another whole

8:43

element to this, which is the picking

8:45

of the cards, you know, and one

8:47

thing that, you know, our sister Caitlin

8:49

says, which I think is a beautiful

8:51

sentence is, you know, give God

8:54

a chance. So

8:56

whatever your beliefs, and there's so many words

8:58

for God, God, universe, source, spirit, wok-kah, you

9:00

know, we're here with our native brothers. There's

9:02

so many names for this force, but we

9:05

all have this sense, Matthias De Stefano calls

9:07

it the weaver. We have this

9:09

sense that there's this guiding force in our

9:11

life that opens up

9:13

synchronicities and creates possibilities. And

9:16

in the picking of these cards, like one of

9:18

the things that I've, that's brought me to tears

9:21

over and over as I've used different oracle decks

9:23

is the precision

9:25

and specificity about which card

9:27

I pick at which

9:29

point, which I can only through

9:31

all of my experience

9:33

describe as there's something happening

9:36

through with spirit through me

9:38

in the picking of the cards that's actually

9:41

opening up a possibility for me in my

9:43

life. And I'm well

9:45

aware of the Barnum effect. I'm well aware

9:47

that we'll try to make anything like any

9:50

reading, like you could pick up any astrological

9:53

reading and if you want it to be about you, it

9:55

can be about you. You can pick up any card and

9:57

the mind can make a story about it, but

9:59

there's so much. sometimes where things just hit in

10:02

such a precise way that you can

10:04

only just laugh or cry. Yeah. It's

10:08

honestly, it's

10:10

annoying to me how it does that. Like

10:12

as the maker of the thing, like I

10:14

still think that the decks shouldn't like call

10:16

me out. You know, I'm like, I

10:18

made this thing. I know it. In

10:20

some ways it's like a product in my life.

10:22

Like it's a creative work, but it's

10:25

also been this thing that's like part of my career,

10:27

you know? So I can have a very distant relationship

10:29

to that synchronicity that

10:31

you're talking about, which is like the other that

10:33

comes in. It's like, you welcome it and you're

10:35

like, okay, show me something that I don't know

10:38

right now. Show me what I need to see. And

10:40

I'm like humbled time and

10:42

time again by it. Like, why

10:44

does this work? Like, what? Yeah,

10:47

right. And I don't even pull from

10:49

decks that often because it's just an intense

10:51

experience for me as like the maker of

10:53

the thing, you know? Right, I'm sure. It's

10:55

a lot. We did it anyways. We did

10:57

it. We did it anyways. And I

10:59

want to definitely, you know, I want to plant a

11:01

seed that we're going to get back to the creative

11:04

process for you because you

11:06

have really mastered the

11:08

ability to take these things that come

11:10

into the imaginal realm of your mind

11:13

and then make them concrete and

11:15

available and also successful. And

11:18

which is also why we invited you to

11:20

be a coach for a creatively fit and

11:22

fit for service for next trimester is because

11:24

you're a master at this. And then I

11:26

have some of those talents and capabilities as

11:28

well, I've produced many things, but that ability

11:30

to take something from the imaginal to the

11:32

physical. So, but I want to plant a

11:34

seed for that and then stick with

11:37

the deck and the story for now, knowing

11:39

that we're going to get back to there

11:41

for anybody who's curious about, all right, I

11:43

have these ideas. How do I do like

11:45

Kim did or do like Aubrey did and

11:47

take these ideas and make them into something

11:49

that can actually impact the world. So we're

11:52

going to plant that seed. And

11:54

then we're going to go into the story that

11:57

we created in pulling from your

11:59

deck, right? Okay. All

12:01

right. So the first card, we split this

12:04

up. And the first card, it was

12:06

my poll. Second card was yours.

12:08

Third card was mine. Fourth card was

12:11

yours. But however Spirit was probably pulling through

12:13

both of us if we

12:15

were open in the right way. Exactly. And

12:18

created a story. So the shaman is

12:21

where we begin our story. So

12:23

I'll ask you first, what

12:25

is your relationship to

12:27

the shaman within yourself? And

12:29

also in the greater world, what's

12:32

your relationship to the shaman? Was

12:38

that, that's my, that's

12:40

power. Was that my relationship to the

12:42

shaman? There's some

12:45

theories about this.

12:53

Well, we

12:56

were doing great. I know. We're

12:58

off to a great start. We're really in it. We're in

13:00

the pocket. So

13:04

I just asked you what your relationship to the shaman

13:06

was and then the whole power for

13:09

the whole house just goes and powers

13:12

down. So, you know, I appreciate that

13:14

you showing off a little bit and,

13:16

and, and, and really try and express

13:19

the power of the shaman, but let's

13:21

keep the power on, you know, other

13:23

things, you know, like strong winds, you

13:25

know, whatever, whatever the tricks you have.

13:28

Just chill on that. Just use words, you

13:31

know, words to communicate. I was trying to go

13:33

nonverbal. I'm like, I can call my people in

13:35

right now. It's cool. You haven't met

13:37

my people yet, but they're here. Well, I'm

13:40

getting introduced. Mad respect. Deep

13:42

bow. Oh, wow. Um,

13:48

what I, what I was going to say is I,

13:50

I think the shaman is

13:52

the one who sings and the

13:55

one who sings and

13:57

keeps singing and they know their songs.

14:00

And they keep that, they hold that

14:02

song, the holy song, whatever

14:04

form that is, it doesn't have to

14:06

be literally music, but

14:08

that it's part of their craft. They've

14:11

honed their craft through daily repetition and

14:13

they're just waiting for the sacred at

14:17

any point to come in and welcoming it into

14:19

the field. And then they can, you

14:22

know, really precisely, really accurately

14:24

move sound, move

14:27

energy through whatever their

14:30

craft is. And I mean that

14:32

like really broadly. Like I

14:34

see the

14:37

art of shamanism in almost any

14:39

like high caliber, whomever, whether they're

14:42

speaking or they're dancing or they're

14:45

throwing a football or whatever it is that they're

14:47

doing. They typically have a bird's eye

14:49

view and they've honed their

14:51

craft to such a degree that the actual

14:53

kind of grit of their work is

14:57

unfolding as they can hold a bird's eye

14:59

view of the energetics of the space. Right.

15:01

Right. I think that's really well said. And

15:04

another way to talk about the song, you could

15:06

talk about the word and the word is the

15:08

logos and the logos is the truth. And

15:11

so I think at the core of any

15:13

shaman, they carry a truth about the nature

15:16

of the cosmos, even if they don't describe

15:18

it in an ontology, that's,

15:20

you know, their own cosmological

15:22

ontology of

15:25

that, which is real in the whole universe, but they feel

15:27

it as it moves through their own body and

15:30

they understand the nature of

15:32

that truth. And then they're applying it. At

15:34

least that's for the benevolent

15:36

shamans because there's also the

15:38

sorcerer, which is the inversion

15:40

of that. Someone who actually

15:42

is tapped into the anti-life,

15:44

anti-value energy or the

15:46

corruption of service to self instead of service

15:48

to other, but the true shaman, the

15:51

word, the logos moves through them and it can

15:53

move through them through touch or through sound or

15:55

through word or through song. In

15:58

some way, they're able to apply it. that to

16:00

affect a person or a

16:02

space or even a

16:04

sacred object in a way that

16:07

actually informs it with the

16:09

intelligence that they carry inside.

16:12

Exactly. It's a

16:14

really good clarification that it's a

16:16

true sound. It's a benevolent, it

16:18

carries that resonance.

16:22

And I mean, my first drawing teacher was,

16:25

I didn't know it at the time, I was 15, but

16:28

she was a total Jedi.

16:30

And she taught the craft of drawing and

16:33

basically promised me, if you

16:35

draw every day for

16:38

an extended period of time, without a break,

16:41

with devotion in your heart, the line

16:43

will wake up. And

16:46

when it wakes up, it will

16:49

want to move. And

16:51

people will feel the resonance, not

16:54

even consciously, they won't even be able

16:56

to articulate it likely, but

16:59

they will sense that something's living in

17:02

the symbol, in the

17:04

image, in the line, in your handwriting, in your

17:06

name when you draw it. And

17:09

once that line, this is the real

17:11

part that gets me. The second part

17:13

is, once the line comes to life,

17:17

the task of the artist is to follow

17:19

the line. And

17:21

the life becomes in service of that movement

17:25

and that intelligence. And

17:28

that's always stayed with me

17:30

as like a marker of, I'm

17:32

still trying to wake up the line even

17:35

more. And I think that's somewhat

17:38

what people respond to in the decks is

17:40

like, that promise

17:42

is in me, her

17:44

own shamanic practice of drawing

17:47

is also in me. She

17:51

passed it to me without me really

17:53

knowing. I was

17:56

like a teenager, you know? I just wanted to

17:58

listen to it. and

18:00

like make out, I mean, she wanted me

18:02

drawing. I drew every day three hours with her.

18:05

And one hour of figure drawing,

18:07

where you're drawing from observation, you're trying, drawing the body,

18:10

and you're trying to understand like the

18:12

planes of the shoulders and the bend of

18:14

the chin and the shapes and defining everything.

18:16

And I'm like, this is

18:18

so intense, but it was that like

18:20

rigorous practice of just the

18:22

promise that someday it will wake up. Yeah.

18:25

There's such an interesting concept around, so

18:28

I apprenticed with my brother

18:30

Purangi in his bodywork style,

18:33

which he's learned and also cultivated through

18:35

a lifetime of mastery. And I was

18:37

really blessed with this opportunity to study

18:39

with him on how to

18:41

actually learn his way of bodywork. And

18:44

what was interesting, one thing about it

18:46

is, whenever I would thank him, because

18:48

in the process, even before that, receiving

18:50

from him, I'd be like, Purangi, that

18:52

was incredible. And he was like, oh,

18:55

well, that was spirit moving

18:57

through me. And that was

19:00

all the guides and helpers and angels.

19:02

And he fully understood that

19:04

he was just actually a vessel

19:06

for something greater than him. And

19:08

that's the idea of the hollow bone.

19:10

But then sometimes people think of the

19:13

hollow bone and they forget that, yes,

19:15

it's the hollow bone, but you've crafted

19:17

and carved that bone in a particular

19:19

way like a master flute

19:21

maker has carved the flute in such a

19:23

way that the sound can come through from

19:26

spirit, from the mystery in such a way

19:28

that it makes the most beautiful harmonious music.

19:31

So it's also the dedication

19:33

and the work. Yes, you empty yourself out

19:35

to allow spirit to come through, but you

19:37

also create a vessel that allows spirit to

19:40

animate you through the dedication and diligence and

19:42

practice. And you can't have one without the

19:44

other. And so a lot of new,

19:47

I would say almost

19:49

wannabe shamans, they'll be

19:51

like, oh, I'm a hollow bone. It's just spirit moving

19:53

through me. But like, yeah, but how much have you

19:55

practiced? Like how much have you

19:57

honed your craft? Like what type of hollow bone?

19:59

Oh, and are you, you know, is there still

20:01

some meat hanging off this side? And like, did

20:04

you actually actually carve this in a

20:06

way that it's precise? And

20:08

so it's both, it's both spirit moving through

20:11

you and it's the diligence to

20:13

actually hone your craft. Exactly.

20:16

Could say this in the art world too with the artists,

20:19

they want that, you know, download or

20:21

channeling, they want that right away. But

20:23

the real work is the, to just

20:25

tend to the craft, you know, whatever

20:27

it is, if you're playing the piano

20:30

or it's showing up for that practice

20:32

and making yourself available to the

20:36

other, you know,

20:38

we've kind of been talking about this since the

20:40

beginning of the conversation is like the other force

20:42

that comes in and wants

20:44

to move through. And

20:47

another thing that people don't talk about,

20:49

especially when it comes to the creative

20:51

aspect of being

20:54

able to hold that force once it starts to

20:56

move through, it's like, yeah, I want to be

20:58

a hollow bone. Yeah, I want to just draw

21:01

what I feel and be a channel for the

21:03

divine. When you

21:05

wake up the creative force,

21:07

like my teacher was suggesting,

21:09

it wants to go somewhere

21:11

and it's also magnetic. So

21:14

other people start turning towards you

21:16

and they want it to be

21:18

satiated. And also you're

21:20

going to have to leave things behind

21:22

that you're comfortable with in

21:25

order to follow the line,

21:27

so to speak. So

21:29

that gets really dicey and there's not

21:31

the support, you know, in our society

21:34

or teachings even around how to support

21:36

the artist when things

21:39

start to actually wake up in them. Yeah,

21:43

exactly. Well, also

21:45

one of the reasons why you've felt

21:48

the call to teach and

21:50

step in for however long that

21:52

is, to actually help people with

21:54

this process, because there's a just

21:57

a paucity of information

21:59

and good education that exists in our

22:01

world. Like what we're taught in school

22:03

is just a joke to me. It's

22:06

a joke. What should we be taught? How to breathe,

22:09

how to create art, how

22:12

to think, how to reason, how

22:14

to communicate with each other in

22:17

the right way, how to listen,

22:19

like basic fundamental things about being

22:22

a human is not

22:24

actually what we're able to learn. So now

22:26

we have alternative means and

22:28

methods to help ourselves

22:31

understand like how to

22:33

actually human being. Yeah.

22:36

It's like even after

22:38

eight years of art school in New York

22:41

and like really great art

22:43

schools and I

22:45

still didn't learn how to be, how

22:47

about this one being an artist with other

22:50

artists, like a team instead

22:53

of the solo artist alone

22:55

painting who's competitive with all

22:57

the other painters that are actually like

23:00

their family and they haven't figured that out yet.

23:03

Like that is a devastating position we

23:09

put the artist in, I think

23:12

culturally and it's

23:14

really tricky to get out of that mindset

23:16

because they're all competing for the gallery or

23:18

the exhibition or the curator or whatever. Yeah

23:22

and at the same time, they're praising

23:24

this almost meme of

23:26

the starving artist and it's

23:28

like they're glorifying, oh yeah, I'm starving,

23:30

struggling artists and that becomes their own

23:33

badge of honor instead

23:35

of being like, yeah, no, I'm an

23:37

artist and I'm pure in that and

23:39

I want a whole bunch of

23:41

people to listen to my songs and I want

23:43

a whole bunch of people to read my book

23:46

and that's okay, that's beautiful, of course you

23:48

do. If you have beautiful art, art is

23:50

medicine, of course you want that and so

23:53

they put that in the shadow and

23:55

when that's in the shadow, then they're

23:57

not actually aligned with their art and their

23:59

purpose. purpose in that way. It's just like,

24:01

if you're an artist, yeah, you want people

24:03

to see your art. For

24:05

the most part, sometimes you may be doing it

24:08

just for yourself as your own cathartic process. But

24:10

I think there's also a danger to

24:13

having your ambition in that way, which

24:15

can come from a super pure place. But

24:18

putting that in the shadow is also another

24:20

pitfall and trap that people can get in.

24:23

There's so many traps. There's

24:25

the artist alone, no

24:28

resources, creative energy coming

24:30

through them, magnetism, money,

24:32

if there's magnetism, and there's all these

24:35

traps. And it's just

24:37

like, that is one of my

24:39

main missions is to get in

24:41

there with artists. First of all, you're not alone. Second

24:44

of all, the creative force is moving through.

24:46

You asked it to, and now how are we

24:49

gonna cope with that? So we gotta work with

24:51

the nervous system a little bit. We gotta start

24:53

to support. We gotta find some friends and people

24:55

that we can be with

24:57

as we grow and move. And

25:01

then how do we deal with all the traps

25:03

and all of these archetypes and shadows and unresolved

25:07

narratives that we have about the

25:09

artist. Yeah, and look, the

25:12

first card is the shaman, same thing. Yeah,

25:14

exactly. There are so many traps. There's so

25:16

many traps. And this is something like, one

25:19

of the big traps is, and Don Howard,

25:21

who's one of my teachers, and

25:23

his lineage was the Sha'Vin lineage, and he

25:26

was a watch-a-marrow. And

25:28

he would talk to me about, every person

25:30

on this path will have to confront the

25:32

seduction of the path of power. Because

25:35

as you open up your capabilities, there

25:37

will be a seduction to use the

25:39

power that you've cultivated for your own

25:42

gain. Maybe it's the seduction of a

25:44

partner that you have. And I've seen

25:46

this happen, where somebody's used their medicine

25:48

and their kind of

25:51

shamanic capabilities to

25:53

actually harvest or grab someone's attention or

25:55

seduce them in some way. And

25:58

that's the seduction of the path of power. and

26:00

all real shamans, he said, have to

26:02

confront the seduction of the path of

26:04

power and resist it. They have to

26:07

rebuke that deal that comes from the devil

26:09

that says you could have so much power.

26:11

Yeah. It's the power

26:13

is a big game once

26:16

you awaken it. You have to like grapple

26:18

with that. You have to, everybody has to

26:20

deal with it. And then there's also the

26:22

competence trap, right? Like some people they take,

26:24

you know, I had an experience with someone

26:27

who is a, supposedly an

26:29

apprentice of a lineage of

26:31

shamans. And he'd

26:34

had a powerful transformational experience with

26:36

this medicine. And then he thought,

26:38

okay, now I can go out and offer this

26:40

medicine, but he didn't have the competency. And,

26:42

you know, he crippled a brother

26:45

of mine because he served the medicine in

26:47

the wrong way. And he caused so much

26:50

damage because he wasn't fit

26:52

to serve actually at

26:54

that point. You know, he overestimated

26:56

his own competency, which can happen

26:58

even for someone who's just a

27:00

regular psychonaut. They overestimate their ability

27:02

to hold the medicine. And then

27:04

something breaks in their psyche and

27:06

it can take years or maybe

27:08

never to recover from

27:11

that. So there's traps in all

27:13

of these practices and

27:17

vocations that someone might have.

27:20

There's also, I mean, we could go on and on

27:22

about the traps. It's like, it's

27:24

really a miracle to me that

27:26

the shamans are still singing because

27:29

there's so many traps and the artists are

27:32

still making things that the song is still

27:34

living and being created at any given moment.

27:37

Because there's also the

27:40

trap of like just ridicule, just

27:43

of really being the one

27:45

to cherish the song and

27:48

to keep chanting the song and to keep honoring

27:51

the traditions and upholding that. I'm

27:54

thinking of like

27:56

the last morning in the most

27:59

recent plant medicine ceremony that I did

28:01

and waking up just at that dawn

28:03

hour and watching

28:05

the Taita move through the space

28:08

singing and just thinking my

28:10

god I'm so

28:12

glad that he never stopped singing

28:14

and I'm sure he met You

28:17

know points in his life when he could

28:19

have made the decision This

28:22

is too hard It's

28:25

too much like look what people say

28:28

Bringing this to the States and

28:30

there's just so many complexities that

28:33

the shaman is facing but to Carry

28:35

the song. I just felt in that

28:37

moment like my god. I am so glad that every

28:43

juncture He made it

28:45

through and that the song is reaching

28:47

me now. Yeah. Yeah. Hallelujah.

28:50

It's such a such a blessing

28:52

Hall of fucking luya Indeed

28:55

and this actually is a for me a

28:58

powerful segue into the mountain Because

29:01

the mountain the mountain stays

29:04

and it plants itself and we're right

29:06

now at the foot of Bear Mountain

29:08

Which is the highest peak in the

29:11

Sedona area and it's this powerful

29:13

mountain and it's more than a mountain It's

29:15

a being and it's watching

29:17

over us and it watches over our land

29:19

and whenever I feel Like

29:21

the chaos is gonna overwhelm me or it's

29:24

too much or I can't withstand the storm

29:27

I think about and I look out

29:29

to Bear Mountain and Bear Mountain can

29:31

withstand any storm. It just stays strong

29:34

and Planted and inviting

29:37

for people to climb and see a higher

29:39

of a vantage point, you know very much

29:41

like a shaman It's an invitation to see

29:44

from a higher perspective But

29:46

the fundamental nature of the mountain

29:49

is the perseverance and

29:51

the steadiness Yeah,

29:53

just hold Yeah,

29:56

this is a missing energy

29:58

from the artist's life for sure. I

30:00

mean, if you think about what's the

30:03

stabilizing force in the artist's life,

30:07

or like, you know, you could put anyone

30:10

that's awakened the energy of

30:13

their craft, an athlete, whatever. There's

30:15

so many ups and downs, so

30:17

fast. I mean, you

30:19

can go from standing on the stage, singing

30:21

a song that you wrote when

30:23

you're by yourself, you're singing in front

30:25

of whatever, five, six, 7,000 people, lights,

30:29

everyone, adoration, magnetism, it's

30:31

all happening. And then

30:35

45 minutes later, you wrap backstage and

30:37

you're in your hotel room, and

30:40

you're solo. If

30:42

you don't have family with you, if you don't have a

30:44

partner with you, you're solo in

30:46

the hotel room after

30:48

you've just gone from that peak experience.

30:51

And if you don't have something

30:55

that's holding you like a greater force and a nervous

30:57

system that's aware of the fact, I just went from

31:00

that to this. And now I feel the vacancy and

31:02

the loneliness when all those people were

31:05

connecting with me. Like, we've

31:07

got to give the tools

31:09

that can help the

31:11

person in that moment, because

31:15

that's when the shit goes down is like the hotel

31:17

room. Totally, totally. After the grace, after

31:20

all the glory. Yes,

31:22

indeed. The down climb.

31:24

Yeah, it's totally, it's the, what

31:26

do you call it? When

31:29

you go up too high and you get, I

31:31

don't know, like Icarus though. It is

31:33

Icarus-ish. I was thinking

31:36

more like altitude sickness,

31:38

when you come down too fast and I

31:41

don't know what happens. Well,

31:43

I think you're thinking maybe of the bends when

31:45

you come, you ascend too fast from going underneath

31:47

the water, scuba diving. That's where you get the

31:49

real problems and you get the bends and then

31:51

you're all fucked up. You got to go into

31:54

hyperbaric oxygen and figure yourself

31:56

out. I mean, nature is like such a teacher in

31:58

this way. Like it literally happens. if you go up

32:00

and down too high. So like, why do we expect

32:03

that humans can do that in a

32:05

day, in a couple of hours? Especially

32:07

without the support. So the internal elements

32:10

in nature of the mountain. And then

32:12

as you mentioned, the external, what is

32:14

the bedrock? So let me ask

32:16

you this question and then I'll answer it for myself

32:18

as well. What is the

32:21

bedrock of the mountain? What is

32:23

the foundation that you have both

32:26

internally and also externally that

32:28

actually helps ground you and

32:31

support you through any different storm that

32:33

you might be in? I

32:41

have both really kind of

32:45

hilarious physical practice that

32:47

I do like secretly in the

32:49

moment when I need it. And

32:53

then I also have an image of

32:56

my first like experience with like

32:58

benevolence that came to me

33:03

when I was riding in the car

33:06

with my grandpa and my mom from

33:08

the movies and we had just watched

33:11

Last of the Mohicans. And

33:13

my grandfather is incredibly

33:15

racist. He was

33:17

incredibly racist. He worked for the Michigan

33:19

State Police during the race riots in

33:22

lower Michigan. And

33:24

he was saying horrible things

33:27

about the movie. Like

33:29

as if there wasn't enough violence in the

33:31

movie, he felt there should have been more.

33:34

And I was, I don't remember what year

33:36

that movie came out but I was leaning

33:38

my head against the window

33:42

and I was most struck that my mom wasn't saying anything.

33:44

She wasn't saying like, yo, don't say that in front of

33:47

my kids or like, you know, she was just driving the

33:49

car and my grandpa was just going on and on. And

33:52

I felt this presence

33:54

come into the car and

33:57

said to me, it was

33:59

a woman. just like benevolent

34:01

presence, Kim, this is

34:03

not the world. You will discover

34:05

the world. And

34:08

I knew at that point, like I'm just in

34:11

this car right now with my family. And

34:15

at some point I will be with

34:17

people that are going to hold reverence for

34:19

different cultures and different types of

34:21

people, different ages, different

34:24

mindsets. And

34:27

knowing that that could come to me as like

34:30

a little kiddo in a car in Michigan, the

34:32

old automobile, like driving down the road, I

34:35

know that that's like with me all the time. And

34:38

it's like, when I'm in a

34:40

sticky place, it's like, this is not the

34:42

whole world. It's gonna expand

34:44

and it will be able to hold

34:46

the bigger forces and bigger

34:48

graces. So that's with me

34:51

all the time. And then just to

34:53

follow up on the physical practice, I'm

34:56

a big believer in the pelvic floor. And

35:00

I am, and it

35:02

will ground you as everyone

35:05

should, like in my opinion, just to go back to

35:07

the school that should exist. I'm like, yo, can we

35:09

just talk about the pelvic floor for a second? Because

35:12

we need to get grounded. We

35:16

need to be able to at any moment be like, whoa,

35:18

I'm barely here. I'm barely here. Kegel's

35:20

like engaged pelvic floor, draw with

35:22

the exhale, come back in the

35:25

body and then, you

35:27

know, get back here. Everyone

35:30

wants to go so far out with

35:33

shamanism, with their experiences with drawing

35:35

and artwork and whatever. But

35:38

I think the real mastery

35:40

is like awareness that you're

35:42

out, come back at any moment and then

35:45

know what you came back with. And

35:48

just to go back to the improv

35:51

comedy show that we did the other day,

35:53

question master, we were standing in line right

35:55

before you and I faced off. I

35:57

was doing Kegels. That's

36:00

why you beat me. I did none.

36:02

You weren't doing giggles. Next time. Next time

36:04

we'll see. I don't have a vagina. How do

36:07

I do a cake? No, men

36:09

can still do it too. It's an engagement of the

36:11

base of the body. You're just saying, like, yo, come

36:13

back home. Actually, I know that. I know that already.

36:16

But I just didn't do it. Yeah, no, it's not. I'm

36:18

trying to make an excuse, but then you just busted me

36:20

on my excuse. It's not only did you win the question

36:22

mask, you just busted me again. And

36:25

actually, I know exactly how to do that

36:27

because that's actually the spasms that create ejaculation

36:29

for men is because of the PC muscle

36:31

that starts to go into spasms. So if

36:34

you actually train yourself to be able to

36:36

control and contract the PC muscle, you can

36:38

prevent yourself from ejaculating. So you can do

36:41

that with manual ease. So this is obviously

36:43

getting into a totally tangential topic. This is

36:45

important. This is a class in the school

36:47

that we create. Well, for sure. So

36:50

there's this legend of what the Taoist

36:53

tantric masters, they called it the million

36:55

dollar spot. And what that means is

36:57

that if you are about to ejaculate,

36:59

you can apply physical pressure to the

37:02

PC muscle to prevent it from spasming.

37:04

So people who are having premature ejaculation

37:06

problems, apparently the rumor is is that

37:09

somebody paid a million dollars to understand

37:11

the secret. And the tantric Taoist masters

37:13

was like, okay, cool. Here it is.

37:16

You just put some pressure on this, or you use your heel

37:18

if you're sitting on it and someone's on

37:20

top of you, there's a way. But the better way

37:23

is to actually train that muscle to be strong enough

37:25

that you can actually hold it in a contracted state

37:27

so it won't spasm and you want to

37:29

ejaculate. I mean, this stuff is

37:31

a big deal. It's like how we also age

37:33

well. Like you can, there's so many things that

37:35

can come from just like having a relationship to

37:37

that part of the body and also like, you

37:40

know, I mean, to

37:43

me it's one of the like survival skills.

37:45

Like, you know, there was a woman at

37:47

the gym, at the boxing studio,

37:49

having a panic attack in the bathroom. I

37:51

heard a crying. It's just like, hold

37:54

my hand, tell me your name and squeeze your glutes.

37:56

Squeeze your glutes, tell me your name, and then you

37:58

just come back. back in the body, back in the

38:00

body, back in the body. And

38:02

there's such a, I

38:04

understand, but there's such a desire to

38:07

go out and to escape. Right. Yeah,

38:10

all things in balance. You have to, as

38:12

far as you wanna go out, you have

38:14

to have equally strengthened the practices of how

38:17

to come back. And

38:19

that's again, the mountain energy, what

38:21

is your mountain? And for everybody to know. And

38:23

I think for what you said about, benevolence

38:26

with a capital B, that

38:28

faith in God, I'm

38:31

comfortable with that word God, and I'm here to

38:33

help reclaim it and clean it off of all

38:36

the barnacles and all of the mischaracterizations

38:38

that have come from it. That's part of

38:40

my path. So I'm comfortable with the word

38:42

God. I understand that some people listening might

38:45

not be, and I totally respect that. But

38:47

for me, my relationship to God is a

38:49

huge part of the mountain for

38:51

me. And then on the other side, it's

38:55

the bedrock of the relationships that I

38:57

have, and the devotion and the

38:59

friendship and the allyship. Like

39:01

all of these beads that I'm wearing around my

39:03

necklace, represent those people that I feel

39:06

like I can count on no matter what. When

39:09

my father passed away, I sent out

39:11

a text to every single person immediately on

39:13

my beaded necklace. And without hesitation, no matter

39:15

where they were in the world, no matter

39:17

how famous they were or what they had

39:19

going on, they're like, we'll be there, we'll

39:21

be there. And they were there. And

39:23

they showed right up, and I can count on them

39:26

as allies. And so when

39:28

I'm alone, it's only because

39:30

I haven't made the effort to reach

39:32

out. So it's these relationships. It's why

39:34

this is like my most sacred object,

39:36

because it symbolizes the relationships that I

39:38

have. Each one of these beads is

39:40

a different person. And so

39:42

the allies and the friendships, and then

39:44

also those particularly special,

39:46

intimate relationships that are just

39:49

built on devotion, where

39:51

it's like, you got me no

39:54

matter what. You got me

39:56

no matter what. And those

39:58

relationships have saved me. of

40:00

me countless times, you know,

40:02

because I do go far out and

40:04

I do have, you know, strong practices

40:06

and faith and ice baths and cold

40:08

plunges and sweat lodges and things that

40:10

ground me, I have all the practices,

40:12

breath, all the different things that I

40:14

can do. But sometimes

40:17

I just need the

40:20

love and allyship and support of

40:23

those that are close to me. And to know that

40:25

I have that at all times is

40:27

what gives me the safety to be

40:29

able to journey far. Without that, I would

40:32

have been lost already. You know,

40:34

honestly, it would have been, I've needed people

40:36

to bring me back many, many times. It's

40:39

such a big deal. I think that's why

40:41

Fit for Service is a big deal. Because

40:43

it's like really

40:46

leaning into that, the

40:49

community and the support. And I do

40:51

think it's so uncommon for artists. I

40:56

remember when I first started playing in a band

40:59

and I was on tour with the band in

41:01

the van with the dudes. And

41:04

we had this really shitty show in Kansas City

41:06

or something. And I

41:09

had mostly been, I'm pretty lone wolf. Like

41:11

I have that in me for sure. Practice,

41:13

get up early, do my thing. I kind of like can't

41:16

find my people, you know? So I'm like, okay, I'll do

41:18

it on my own. I'll draw by myself and put out

41:20

the deck by myself. I'll do all this stuff by myself.

41:23

It's fine. DIY and

41:25

that's great. But I

41:27

remember being in the van after this shitty show

41:29

in Kansas City. We got in

41:32

the van and everyone was like, fuck

41:34

Kansas City, like fuck that. Let's like drive

41:36

all the way to Denver. And we're gonna

41:38

like, you know, there was this ability to

41:40

like take what had just occurred. And

41:43

I didn't have to hold it on my own

41:45

or take it personally or anything. It was like

41:47

this group morale around me. And I was sitting

41:49

in the van being like, I have never experienced

41:51

this before. I've never felt just

41:53

the group holding me as

41:56

an artist and I just witnessed

41:59

how shitty. the sound was and the mic and how

42:01

it was really, I was struggling through the

42:03

whole show. And then I

42:06

was thinking, wow, every artist, every

42:09

discipline has its own sense

42:13

of team or not, the tennis

42:15

player versus like, the basketball player.

42:18

Post game, very different scene.

42:21

And you have to know that again

42:24

and set

42:26

your support system so that you have them in place.

42:29

And yeah, that is one of the

42:32

genesis of Fit for Service was I

42:35

was in a Wachuma ceremony with Don Howard and

42:37

I showed up with a couple of friends, but

42:39

we had probably another 12 people who

42:42

were there in the ceremony with us. And

42:44

after going through that initiation, the Wachuma

42:47

Masada, it was called, which is going

42:49

through the lower world, the middle world,

42:51

the upper world in

42:53

the ancient Shavian traditions that Don

42:56

Howard was blessed to carry

42:59

forward. We all

43:01

became so close. We

43:03

had a WhatsApp thread and it's

43:05

still not going right now, but it stayed for

43:07

a long time. And if I ever saw one

43:09

of those other people and some of them have

43:11

shown up actually in Fit for Service later, but

43:14

I was just sitting there with Dr. Dan, who's also

43:16

one of the beads on my necklace.

43:19

And I was like, man, if we

43:21

could create something and I don't wanna

43:23

do psychedelics because I can't recommend psychedelics

43:25

to anybody at all. Psychedelics are a

43:28

personal choice, but there's initiatory practices that

43:30

I can recommend to everybody, like breath

43:32

work and ecstatic dance. And if we

43:34

can bond a group together through

43:37

initiatory practices, go through stuff together,

43:40

we can build friendships and

43:42

alliances and that's gonna be

43:44

really profound. And it took four more years for

43:46

me to figure out how to cultivate

43:48

the Fit for Service container, but that

43:50

seed was planted based on the idea

43:53

of how quickly over a week's time, we

43:56

could form like long, deep,

43:59

lasting friendships. with different

44:01

people and create bonds. And that's what

44:03

we've seen over and over again with

44:05

Fit for Service. The 2018 Fit for

44:07

Service crew, they're still hanging

44:09

out. They're still gathering. They're still

44:11

in business partnerships together and still

44:13

doing things because they

44:15

sweat together, they cried together, they went

44:18

through, so they learned together, they served

44:20

together. It's a big deal. But

44:22

Aubrey, it's also because of

44:24

you. Like you have a

44:27

real gift in

44:29

that particular place and it's a particular

44:31

capacity. And I know this from the

44:33

first breathwork session that I did with

44:36

Fit for Service. And at the end of it,

44:38

I was sitting up and I opened

44:41

my eyes and you were there sitting

44:43

across from me. And

44:45

basically, just to say

44:48

this, if

44:50

any other dude was sitting in my space like

44:52

that, right after breathwork, I would have been like,

44:55

yo, why are you in my

44:57

space? But I could tell immediately

45:00

by your eyes, like we

45:03

were sharing a horizon line at that point. And

45:06

you were witnessing me. And

45:10

we exchanged some words and

45:13

you said something like, I see

45:16

your light. And

45:18

I said, thank you

45:21

for not turning away. And

45:24

that was the first time

45:27

I felt that type of

45:29

holding of space from a man that

45:32

was witnessing and

45:37

just supporting holding

45:39

the horizon line of what was next and

45:42

not turning away. And

45:44

that gift is like incredible.

45:48

And that runs through Fit for Service and the other

45:50

work that you do. And it runs through the people

45:52

that are in Fit for Service. But

45:54

I'm telling you that is a real

45:56

gift and it is rare and it

45:58

is so needed. Thank

46:01

you, Sis. I really appreciate that. I

46:03

got emotional just thinking of

46:05

that moment because, you know, that is one

46:07

of those moments where there

46:10

was, you know, in the breath work,

46:12

it's a beautiful opportunity to really just

46:14

listen and observe and see.

46:17

And I have different moments

46:19

with different people and sometimes I don't have

46:21

any moments with certain people. There's obviously many

46:23

people in the space, but I

46:25

was just really drawn to that. And I can't

46:27

even recall. I don't

46:31

have, I mean, that was the first recollection of

46:33

what I said, but I remember the moment and

46:35

I remember that's what it was. It was to

46:37

sit there as the mountain and

46:39

to just see. And that not looking away

46:41

is a key thing. It's a big part

46:43

of my own lineage as Rebbe Gaffney talks

46:46

about. So face to face with God is

46:48

panimopanim, face to face. It's not looking

46:50

away from the light. Sitra-akra means

46:52

turning of the face. And in the

46:54

turning of the face, you're turning away

46:56

from the light. You're turning away from

46:58

the truth. You're turning away. And that's

47:00

where all things fester and rot is

47:02

in the absence of your attention, which

47:04

is also called hashkaha, the

47:06

divine presence that

47:09

doesn't look away. And, you

47:11

know, that's me at

47:13

my best and I'm not always at

47:15

my best. I know, but it's also

47:17

that you verbalized it. Like

47:19

I had, this is why I got

47:21

obsessed with boxing. The

47:24

first time I ever boxed with someone and

47:26

someone held the mitts for me, I just

47:28

afterwards like went in my car and cried.

47:30

I was like, I have never had someone

47:33

just stand there and

47:35

essentially ask me non-verbally, hit

47:38

harder, get more clear. I want

47:41

you to get more clear, stronger, more

47:43

precise and more you. And I'm

47:45

going to stand here and hold my ground while

47:47

you do that. And

47:50

that's why I went to boxing,

47:52

you know, when I started five, six days a week,

47:54

because I had never felt that in

47:58

my life from. And

48:01

I don't feel like I'm alone in

48:03

saying that. This isn't like me and

48:05

my story. It's like, that is very

48:07

common for people not to have that.

48:09

It's why the lone wolf exists. Cause

48:11

they're like, these

48:13

folks don't want the light. So I'm actually

48:15

going to go over here to like protect

48:17

what I know I have inside and I'll

48:19

foster my gifts over here and wait to

48:22

like find my crew. And

48:25

so I had

48:28

experienced it non-verbally, but

48:30

then to feel that same dynamic with you and

48:32

for you to say the words was like such

48:34

a big step for me. That was the next

48:36

step. And

48:38

with that in mind, it like

48:40

allows me to understand the masculine

48:42

more and its potential

48:44

to hold. Yeah. Which

48:47

if we can drop into that and

48:50

not just keep like this sacred feminine

48:53

or the sacred womb, but also think

48:55

about like the

48:57

sacredness of the

48:59

man's pelvic floor and the man's

49:01

and that, like the whole shebang.

49:04

Yeah. Bring equal amounts of sacredness

49:06

to it. That I feel like

49:08

then we can start to like get

49:11

somewhere. At least I can start to get

49:13

somewhere because the progress that I felt since

49:15

like my first boxing sesh and then that

49:17

experience with you, I'm like,

49:19

oh my God. This,

49:22

you know, we've mentioned

49:25

the masculine nature and the mountain. And

49:27

I actually have a poem that's coming

49:30

out in my new book called Love

49:32

to the Seventh Power. That's called A

49:34

Man is a Mountain. And

49:38

I think I would like to read it. You have to read

49:40

it. All right. So

49:43

a mountain is a man. A

49:47

man is a mountain. He is

49:49

a bed for weary minds, a

49:52

ladder for souls to climb, a

49:54

haven for all the forsaken. He

49:57

is a pilgrimage, a rite of

49:59

passage. A wayfinder to

50:01

God, covered in snow,

50:03

covered in grass. He grows in

50:06

mass over time and

50:08

lifetime. You push, he

50:11

stays. You strike, he

50:14

lays. You lash, he

50:17

forgives. You curse, he

50:20

laughs. You leave, he remains.

50:24

You come, he welcomes. You

50:27

belittle, he smiles. For

50:30

what does a mountain have to prove?

50:33

He has no scale to measure, no

50:35

eyes to compare, no ego to defend.

50:37

If you ask him what he is, he will

50:40

reply. I am the

50:42

rocks, the dirt, the

50:44

air, and all the

50:46

life in between. I

50:48

am the first to greet the sun. I

50:51

kiss the moon goodnight. Use

50:54

the clouds as my clothes, wear

50:56

the stars as a dormant. Sing

50:59

through eagles' cries and

51:01

never, ever do

51:03

I hide my size. A

51:06

mountain is a man. Thank

51:12

you, Aubrey. Yeah, yeah.

51:14

Did you plan that, like with this

51:16

card? Yeah, this was all part of

51:18

my trick to get to that poem.

51:20

Okay, great. Or

51:23

the future seeing you wrote the poem for

51:25

the... Did you write

51:27

one for the mask too? Yeah, exactly. If I

51:30

had poems for all of them, I think it

51:32

would be highly sus. You know, I'd be like,

51:34

all right, what's going on here? I have a

51:36

poem, it's called The Mask is

51:38

Disposable. I have this other one. I

51:42

have a poem about Kairos, by the way.

51:47

Oh boy. And that's, I think,

51:49

one of the things that, you know, people are

51:51

afraid of, people are afraid of, that

51:54

actually I'm wearing a mask.

51:57

And that actually I'm some cult

51:59

leader, trying. to manipulate people and

52:01

trying to extract because they've

52:03

seen that, they've seen the

52:05

extractive masculine and the world is

52:07

filled with these ideas of it. They've seen

52:10

so much of the negative that they

52:12

project this on all

52:15

people and men, you know, women have their own

52:17

projections, but men in particular, they get projected upon

52:19

them like, oh, what are you trying to get

52:21

from me? How are you trying to trick me?

52:23

What are you, you know, you're just trying to,

52:25

if it's involving like

52:27

romantic or sexual relationships, how are you trying to

52:29

trick me out of my clothes? You know, how

52:32

are you gonna trick me into going to bed

52:34

with you or if it's business, how are you

52:36

gonna trick me into giving your money? And

52:39

yeah, that exists. And sometimes

52:41

it doesn't. Yeah. You

52:44

know, sometimes it doesn't and that's real. And I

52:46

think, you know, one of the

52:48

things that, you know, I have been able to

52:50

offer and one of the reflections I get is

52:52

to help heal that wound for a lot of

52:54

people who expect that. Yeah, it's

52:56

a big wound. It's

52:58

exactly what I would have expected if there was

53:01

like a dude sitting there, like

53:03

staring at me after breath work, I'd be

53:05

like, yo, what do you want? Yeah, right,

53:07

right, right. And I

53:10

mean, I can imagine, you know, as

53:14

a woman, like you go into a social

53:16

environment and it doesn't even matter what

53:18

social environment, it could be an ecstatic dance, which

53:20

is supposed to be a safe place where everybody's

53:22

freely expressing, but you go to like, and Fit

53:24

for Service is good about this, but

53:26

you go to some other ecstatic dance, like

53:28

a local place that you're out and

53:31

you're cruising and there's that slippery

53:33

guy who's going to like ecstatic

53:36

dance in your space and make

53:38

like overly eye contact. And you're

53:40

like, bro, come on,

53:42

man. Like save your tricks for some

53:44

other place. Yeah, there's that. And

53:46

then there's the turn away also has, it

53:48

is so brutal. Like that's what I've been

53:50

more used to is like, if I let

53:53

the comedian me out of the bag or

53:55

like, you know, you go on a first

53:57

date with someone and I'm always kind of

53:59

like, like how much of me am I

54:01

gonna let them see? Like how much

54:03

intelligence, how much sexiness, like how much

54:05

can they handle? There's something in me

54:08

that I'm like gauging that because usually

54:10

the response that I'm used to is more

54:13

like, whoa, like I can't,

54:15

I actually can't. So then the

54:17

gaze or the mask or whatever we're

54:19

aimed at here in this next card,

54:21

it turns away from

54:24

what is witnessing. So I've really been thinking about

54:27

that the strength of the masculine

54:29

strength is to stay with

54:32

whatever is in front of them. It

54:34

could be so radiant and brilliantly bright,

54:36

or it could be so gnarly and

54:38

dark and at its lowest point,

54:41

but to just bear

54:43

witness to what is without turning away is

54:46

super powerful. Yeah, and

54:48

the highest level of that is to

54:50

not only not turn away, but

54:52

also learn the lesson

54:55

between judgment and discernment. And

54:57

I think this is a key element to what

54:59

it is to carry the

55:01

masculine with dignity and

55:03

with honor is to have your sort

55:05

of discernment to say, no, no, this

55:07

is not right and this

55:10

is right. And also resist

55:12

the temptation to move into judgment. And

55:14

the difference between judgment and discernment is

55:16

judgment is saying, this thing is not

55:18

worthy of love. Discernment

55:20

is saying, not in

55:23

my field, not in my space or

55:25

not in this world potentially. Get

55:27

thee behind me, Satan, not

55:29

today, not today, but also

55:32

there's a deeper place

55:34

of non-judgment of like, I understand why you exist

55:36

and I understand where you come from the trauma

55:38

that you were born out of, whatever that is.

55:41

And so I'm not, as Paul Selig would

55:43

say, placing you in a cave, because as

55:46

soon as you judge someone else, you're judging

55:48

some small aspect of yourself in the greatest,

55:50

in the greatest expanse of who you are,

55:52

that which you judge is a part of

55:55

your greater self. And so you put yourself

55:57

in the cave with them, you close on

55:59

them. off that chamber of your heart to

56:02

yourself and to actually to God when

56:05

you judge. And we also need

56:07

the discretion. It's like the rose, the rose

56:09

is the perfect model of this for me.

56:12

The rose gives its flower and its beauty

56:14

and its scent to any, but it also

56:16

has thorns that says, you can't trample me.

56:19

Be mindful. And so

56:21

I've always tried to keep that symbol of

56:24

the rose with me of like

56:26

my flowers available for everyone, but there's

56:28

thorns and like you can't trample and

56:31

destroy the flower. Yeah.

56:33

I think this awareness of

56:36

that polarity is

56:38

just, that's the game

56:40

is to know the fragrance of the rose

56:43

and to know the sharpness of the thorn with

56:45

the bee. It's like the sting and the honey,

56:48

you know, the mountain,

56:50

you have the high peak

56:52

and then you have the low when you come down.

56:55

So just sort of know like, where

56:57

am I on this spectrum at like any, at

56:59

any given moment? It's like, goes

57:02

back to the shaman to

57:04

some degree, it's like the shaman actually knows

57:06

their location. Like that's one of their gifts

57:08

that they've honed is to know like, where

57:11

am I in the ordinary

57:13

and non-ordinary? Do I need

57:15

to tether back to the ordinary to the material

57:17

world right now at the table with Aubrey or

57:20

how far out am I right now with

57:22

my, with my mind's eye? Yeah. How do

57:24

you be in Kairos where we're going and

57:27

Chronos, which is like linear

57:29

time and timeless time, which

57:31

is another, you know, polar scale.

57:34

So how much time do you think we should

57:37

give to the card called Kairos? And

57:41

there is the sword of discernment to figure

57:43

that out, but we can't avoid the mask.

57:46

We can't. I tried to. The mask is

57:48

staring right at us here. I tried to

57:50

hop over it, but I did address it

57:52

for one second, but it wasn't really. We

57:54

got to go deeper. I looked away. So

57:57

there's, there's a lot to discuss with the

57:59

mask. First, let's get vulnerable. All

58:03

right, so the shadow of the mask

58:05

is when we're presenting something that isn't

58:07

true, right? Like we're

58:09

presenting something that isn't real. And

58:11

in some ways, the story that

58:13

you were saying about if you're

58:16

hiding some of your intelligence, hiding some of

58:18

your humor, hiding some of your erotic

58:21

magnetism, that's a mask.

58:23

And it's a mask to make people feel comfortable

58:26

with you. So that's one thing that you

58:29

offered as a potential place where you might wear

58:31

a mask. And it's not that that isn't the

58:33

right choice at that point, but it is a

58:36

mask and it never really feels good to wear

58:38

the mask. No, I have

58:40

a first date mask for sure. So

58:42

it's not my favorite mask, but it

58:45

doesn't even seem to be working that well, but. Yeah,

58:50

so where else do you

58:53

experience the shadow of the mask and we'll talk

58:55

about the light side of the mask. Well,

58:58

I also think we could go back

59:00

to the shaman for a second and

59:02

say that the shamanic, the shadow of

59:04

the shamanic mask is overperformance of

59:07

what is ceremonial or what is sacred

59:09

and how to sort of enact that

59:11

without, I

59:13

mean, most of the shamans are

59:16

the most like legit that I've met in

59:18

my time, like across different lineages. They're

59:21

so chill in one side. And

59:25

then they're also like, there's joy. And

59:29

then when it comes time, like. They

59:32

get into it. We're

59:34

doing a documentary on Maestro

59:37

Alberto Davila and he's

59:39

a master of

59:41

the Mestizo, Iowasquero lineage. And

59:44

he tells a funny story of when he was

59:46

asked one time to put on this ceremonial

59:49

regalia that he said somebody

59:51

ordered from China. And he

59:53

was like, the fuck are you talking about?

59:55

Cause he's straight to business. It's just, he's

59:57

one of the most powerful shamans I've ever

59:59

known. but he shows up in his

1:00:01

baseball cap and he shows up

1:00:04

in his normal little college shirt and

1:00:06

his jeans and then

1:00:08

he does his work and he says,

1:00:10

there you go, I'm off.

1:00:12

And then he's just doing exactly who

1:00:14

he is and what he is. And

1:00:16

any of this, oh, let me put

1:00:18

on the ceremonial regalia. I mean, he's

1:00:20

earned whatever ceremonial regalia he wants. Like,

1:00:22

go for it, bro. But he doesn't

1:00:24

wanna wear that. He doesn't have power,

1:00:26

amulets and things. I love sacred objects

1:00:28

and I'm a big fan of all

1:00:31

that. And I really appreciate the ceremonial

1:00:33

regalia and you can bring that in.

1:00:35

And obviously we're here with Chase Iron Eyes and it

1:00:37

was so powerful to see him in

1:00:39

the ceremonial regalia that he's earned. And

1:00:43

also there's a place where it's like, yeah, you

1:00:45

don't need any of that. Like

1:00:47

it can become a mask. It can become

1:00:50

part of a performance rather than

1:00:52

the truth and trusting the truth of who you

1:00:54

are. And

1:00:56

at the same time,

1:00:58

the shaman knows when

1:01:00

more theatrics is needed

1:01:02

to move the spirit, where it needs

1:01:05

to move or move the psyche, the

1:01:07

imagination, whatever it is, whether it's like,

1:01:09

the feather here, blow

1:01:11

here, chant loud, and now quiet and

1:01:13

whisper, like they are super aware of

1:01:16

how the theatrics are

1:01:19

also woven into the practice. There's

1:01:26

an interesting thing that I've meditated on. So

1:01:30

there's some shamans who

1:01:34

they will work on an

1:01:36

extraction process, right? So chupar is one

1:01:38

of the extraction processes and it's a

1:01:40

process of sucking and it's sucking out

1:01:42

the negative energy and you purge it.

1:01:45

And I've watched this happen in

1:01:47

a variety of ways and it usually just comes

1:01:49

out as coughing or purging or some other thing.

1:01:51

But there's a certain practice

1:01:54

that certain shamans have where they

1:01:57

will do a magic trick. And I

1:01:59

know, and I know. I know it's a magic trick.

1:02:01

Some people know it's real. And I know there's

1:02:03

people listening now like, no, it's real. I was

1:02:05

like, look, I've been around stage musicians. I

1:02:08

understand how slick they are,

1:02:10

especially you're in an altered state of consciousness.

1:02:13

It's not hard to conjure something out

1:02:15

of your hand when you're wearing sleeves.

1:02:20

This is not, I've been around David Blaine.

1:02:22

He came to my 40th birthday party and

1:02:24

did some crazy shit, but he's not producing

1:02:26

cards out of thin air. It's a trick.

1:02:30

They'll pull a fish

1:02:33

bone out of someone's neck and

1:02:35

now your voice is clear. And

1:02:38

I know it's a trick. And so it wouldn't work on me.

1:02:40

No one's ever tried it on me, but it

1:02:42

wouldn't work on me. But the people that

1:02:45

have had that trick done to them, they

1:02:48

have this thing of like, and then they have this fish

1:02:50

bone. It's like, I am healed.

1:02:53

And I'm wondering, I'm like, is

1:02:55

that crossing the line? Or

1:02:57

is that just harnessing this super powerful placebo

1:02:59

effect? And are they knowing that they're doing

1:03:02

a trick but doing it for the right

1:03:04

reason? And it's an interesting

1:03:06

gray area for me. It's super interesting.

1:03:08

I mean, to go back to the

1:03:10

idea of the spectrum of like the

1:03:12

performing shaman and the

1:03:14

shaman with a performing mask, let's say, and then the

1:03:17

shaman in the whatever,

1:03:19

baseball cap or something. And

1:03:22

I would

1:03:24

say that I would like to just

1:03:26

like blankly trust all the shamans, but

1:03:29

it's a little dodgy out there. But

1:03:31

I would like to say that the

1:03:33

shaman knows that that particular person needs

1:03:35

a little bit more activation

1:03:38

of their psyche or imaginal

1:03:40

realm that it's like, oh, I actually had

1:03:42

to have evidence of the

1:03:44

thing coming out where like, I don't need

1:03:46

that. I mean, that

1:03:50

would make me feel like I didn't have the

1:03:52

experience, that I was imagining the experience. But I

1:03:54

think there's just different psyches and I need different

1:03:56

things with different moments. And that's really the skill

1:03:58

of the. Shaman is to be able to run

1:04:01

that spectrum and know like this

1:04:04

person actually needs the whole thing spelled

1:04:06

out for them. Like they need to

1:04:08

say that. Yeah, they need that compelling

1:04:10

evidence is their way their mind works.

1:04:12

Exactly. And so that is

1:04:15

the golden interpretation of that craft. And

1:04:18

I agree, I think that's quite possible.

1:04:20

And so that's why it's interesting. And also it

1:04:23

could be, I've also seen it used in other

1:04:25

ways where this quote, shamans

1:04:27

have conjured some little pill. And my

1:04:29

stepmother is a Chinese medicine doctor. So

1:04:32

I know what all of these pills

1:04:34

look like. And they're some kind of,

1:04:36

I don't know, a luth row

1:04:38

or ginseng or some shit like that. And then

1:04:41

they'll have this special pill. They'll conjure out of

1:04:43

thin air. And they'll give it to somebody and

1:04:45

say, you can have this pill,

1:04:47

but this is just a sacred pill from

1:04:49

spirit and it'll be 10 grand. And

1:04:52

I've watched people pay the money.

1:04:54

And I'm like, no, don't. What

1:04:57

are you doing? You're getting fucking,

1:04:59

you're getting swindled. Yeah. I

1:05:01

mean, it's

1:05:03

interesting, just this question of when

1:05:05

does God show up in that

1:05:07

equation? Even to

1:05:09

go back to the tarot cards, I

1:05:11

never thought I would be known

1:05:14

as a tarot card artist. I'm

1:05:17

an artist that drew this

1:05:19

series of decks. But I'm

1:05:22

in this sort of genre where

1:05:25

people are like, this card is,

1:05:27

you know, means

1:05:29

all. And it's revealing

1:05:31

so much knowledge to me. It's something like, no,

1:05:33

no, no. You don't even need the

1:05:35

card. Like we don't need, even

1:05:37

this feels theatrical in some ways. But

1:05:40

the idea is at any

1:05:43

given moment, you need something to potentially

1:05:46

move the imagination where it hasn't

1:05:48

been yet. And who

1:05:51

are we to say, maybe the

1:05:53

pill, we don't know what the pill did

1:05:55

for the person. It's true. I mean.

1:05:58

It's true. it's

1:06:00

holding all of our ideas tenderly,

1:06:03

and also like being able to,

1:06:06

and I think that's also the beauty of a mind

1:06:08

that's inherently has some

1:06:11

balance of skepticism. And

1:06:13

that's one thing I always encourage is

1:06:15

to hold all of your visions and

1:06:17

hold all of these prophecies or oracular

1:06:20

messages that you get, like hold

1:06:22

them lightly. Exactly. And

1:06:24

just, if it feels true and

1:06:27

feels right, follow them audaciously. However,

1:06:29

still have the humility to know

1:06:31

that we're all fallible. Yeah,

1:06:34

this is why I'm so glad that

1:06:37

I grew up on a farm in Michigan. Cause

1:06:39

like my dad's a truck driver and my

1:06:42

mom was an elementary school secretary at my

1:06:44

school. And somehow

1:06:46

I got into esoterica pretty

1:06:48

early, but they,

1:06:52

my mom's pretty open-minded, but everything

1:06:54

I've learned from whatever tradition or

1:06:56

any super woo woo stuff, I'm

1:06:58

always tracking like, but

1:07:01

is this working? Like what's

1:07:04

the data here? Like, you know, when

1:07:06

you're on the farm, you can hear all kinds

1:07:08

of esoteric stuff about like how to get

1:07:12

the fields to produce the most hay, but like if

1:07:14

it doesn't work, it doesn't work. So

1:07:18

in a lot of practices, I have

1:07:21

that gauge always in my mind of

1:07:23

like sort of tracking, collecting data and

1:07:26

evidence of like, what's

1:07:28

the most useful way to do this? And I

1:07:31

think that the cards that I've made and the

1:07:33

work that I've done, I think benefits from that

1:07:36

really skeptical stream

1:07:38

in me. That I think is

1:07:41

potentially part of my mask too, is

1:07:43

I'm in the new age world and people

1:07:46

assume all kinds of things about my beliefs. And

1:07:48

I'm like, I'm a fucking farm

1:07:50

girl. Like I was on the tractor, like

1:07:52

early on the four wheeler, like, you know,

1:07:56

play basketball in the driveway and like

1:07:59

just. working, like

1:08:02

from super young. So

1:08:04

if I was raised with new age

1:08:07

parents, which I fantasized about like, you

1:08:09

know, these parents I should have had,

1:08:12

I don't even know if my work would be that

1:08:14

useful because that polarity pulls

1:08:17

me back all the time. Yeah,

1:08:20

it's a phrase that Chris Williamson shares

1:08:23

a lot and he just asked, does it grow

1:08:26

corn? Yeah, exactly. Like, does it grow corn? Oh,

1:08:28

that's cool. Does it grow corn? How useful is

1:08:30

that idea in your life? And

1:08:32

I think that's always an important question to

1:08:34

ask. To go back to the pelvic floor. I

1:08:37

mean, it fucking works. It grows corn.

1:08:39

It works, it grows corn. So,

1:08:42

all right, so for me with the mask,

1:08:44

I think, you know, there's

1:08:48

what I call our identity structure, I call

1:08:50

it the player, and the player is designed

1:08:52

to play a game. And when

1:08:54

you actually know that you're playing the game, you

1:08:56

can put on a mask for that game. And

1:08:59

that game could be the game of improv.

1:09:02

And so, let's say, or I was in

1:09:04

a comedia dell'arte and I wore a mask

1:09:06

and I performed. And

1:09:08

so, I was the character Bargello.

1:09:11

And now, Bargello, is Bargello Aubrey?

1:09:14

No, but when I was Bargello, in

1:09:16

some ways I was more Aubrey than

1:09:19

I ever was. There was something that

1:09:21

was moving through me, even

1:09:23

though I was performing, that

1:09:25

was actually the most me. And I think a

1:09:27

lot of actors and comedians, they'll

1:09:29

know that like, yeah, I'm performing, I'm

1:09:31

wearing a mask, but there's

1:09:34

something actually underneath that performance

1:09:36

that's really true. And

1:09:38

so, I think this idea that if you're performing, it's

1:09:40

not you, no, no, no, it's

1:09:42

still you underneath that performing,

1:09:45

but all that's required is a little

1:09:47

bit of awareness. And the

1:09:49

awareness that, all right, I'm in this

1:09:51

performance, but when you're locked into a

1:09:53

character and we're sitting across,

1:09:56

if the producer of the show, Joshua Draper, is

1:09:59

a master in performing. and the prof, you

1:10:01

know, both teacher and practitioner. So we've had

1:10:03

so much fun doing it, but it's like

1:10:05

getting locked into a character in a mask,

1:10:07

that's where like the magic happens. And same

1:10:10

in the shamanic realms, like that you put

1:10:12

on the shamans who put on a mask,

1:10:14

they become the mask. And

1:10:16

in some ways, even though they're not their

1:10:18

normal self, they are more of themselves rather

1:10:21

than less of themselves. It's such a big

1:10:23

deal. Also to like be witness doing that,

1:10:25

to have people witness you changing and to

1:10:27

see that side of you and

1:10:29

to like welcome you back after, like I saw

1:10:31

that changing you. Yeah. It's such a big deal.

1:10:34

It's so fun. And like actually so spontaneously,

1:10:38

we were at a party here in Sedona

1:10:40

and it was for our sister Madeleine's birthday.

1:10:42

And she, her theme was

1:10:44

cowboys and aliens. And so the theme

1:10:46

for the party was cowboys and aliens.

1:10:49

So I went with cowboy and

1:10:52

spontaneously this character, Huckleberry

1:10:54

Red came out and

1:10:56

it was so fun playing Huckleberry Red.

1:10:59

And I got the

1:11:02

brother who works on our farm and has

1:11:04

taken care of this land. It's a father

1:11:06

and son and the son's named Cody. And

1:11:09

Cody has a holster for like a real

1:11:11

gun, but I put like a fake alien

1:11:13

gun in my holster and I was cruising

1:11:15

around and I was Huckleberry Red for two

1:11:18

hours. And it was so like, it was

1:11:20

like so magnetic and people were asking me

1:11:22

questions as Huckleberry Red and I was responding.

1:11:24

And I got to be this character for

1:11:27

hours and then everybody

1:11:29

who's at the party was like, they want

1:11:31

that character to come back. And sometimes I

1:11:33

have access to it and sometimes I don't,

1:11:35

but like to lock into that character, there

1:11:38

was such a joy and aliveness in

1:11:40

it. So, and I think that's the

1:11:42

golden side of a mask is when

1:11:44

you like step into a performance and

1:11:47

allow some aspect of yourself to shine

1:11:49

that normally wouldn't. So

1:11:52

this is probably when I should

1:11:55

introduce myself. Yes. My

1:11:58

name's Zyla. I'm

1:12:01

Kim's angelic psychic and sometimes I

1:12:04

drop down into her body, not

1:12:06

yet on a first date. I've

1:12:08

never shown up on a first date, but

1:12:10

I'm here and I protect her and sometimes

1:12:13

I drop down into the human body and

1:12:15

I just say the things that Kim wouldn't

1:12:17

be so likely to say. It's

1:12:20

great to meet you Aubrey, really special. It's

1:12:22

great to meet you Zyla. Do

1:12:24

you have any messages you'd like to

1:12:26

share with me? I

1:12:29

usually talk about the

1:12:32

sacredness of the erection. So

1:12:36

I don't know if that's on topic for our

1:12:38

podcast, but I do want to just say, just

1:12:40

drop it in there, just to stay with this

1:12:42

idea of the masculine. That

1:12:44

the first image that we

1:12:47

have that's ever drawn, that we

1:12:49

have on record, the first image

1:12:53

is in the caves in Southern France and

1:12:55

it's of a man, a shaman

1:12:58

chasing the game,

1:13:01

the wild creatures

1:13:04

and he has

1:13:06

an erection and he does.

1:13:10

And this image has really perplexed

1:13:12

many historians and many

1:13:14

mystics. And

1:13:19

really if you look at it, like I look at

1:13:22

it, which is that humans

1:13:24

are lost and they've lost their

1:13:26

direction. We could think about the

1:13:28

erection as a kind of aimed

1:13:32

life force that

1:13:34

knows where it's going. It's

1:13:36

not about fucking necessarily, it could be,

1:13:38

but it's not like genital, it's not

1:13:40

a genitals thing. It's

1:13:42

a psychic force that moves one

1:13:45

towards one's life. And

1:13:48

until we get right with the

1:13:50

erection, knowing that it is

1:13:52

also sacred, enough of the

1:13:54

sacred vulva and the sacred womb and all

1:13:56

of it, it's enough stuff about

1:13:58

that. I mean, more stuff about that. but we

1:14:00

need to rise up with a, no pun, rise

1:14:04

up with a sacred erection. So

1:14:07

that's my message and I think I've said way

1:14:09

too much and I hope you don't

1:14:11

think that I don't have other types of things to

1:14:13

say. I, thank you, Silah.

1:14:16

I agree actually that this

1:14:19

sacred erection pointed and allured the allurement

1:14:21

of the sacred erection

1:14:23

is also important. What

1:14:25

is it that draws the masculine forward,

1:14:28

draws the two messants forward? What is

1:14:30

that allurement and that is the goddess

1:14:34

and the not the goddess only

1:14:36

embodied in a woman, but the

1:14:38

goddess at large, the

1:14:41

mother, the goddess, like

1:14:43

that's what draws forward the

1:14:45

masculine and it allures and

1:14:47

it allures the masculine to

1:14:49

their greatness. So wise words,

1:14:52

Silah. Bring back the erection.

1:14:56

Yes. I'm gonna hop out

1:14:58

of Kim's body now. She'll take off

1:15:00

this mask and thanks

1:15:03

Aubrey. Yeah, thank you, thank you Kim

1:15:05

and thank you Silah for that, for

1:15:07

dropping that pearl. It's

1:15:10

perfect and that's a perfect example of

1:15:12

how like a mask can give you

1:15:14

permission to say, because that

1:15:17

would have been an awkward topic or conversation. No

1:15:19

it's awkward. But not with Silah. No,

1:15:21

Silah doesn't have a problem with it. Yeah, no,

1:15:24

she's great. So I

1:15:26

mean, there's the shadow side of a

1:15:28

mask and then there's the light side

1:15:30

of a mask and I think it's

1:15:32

beautiful in this story to this is

1:15:35

one of the traps. This

1:15:37

is actually another example of, okay,

1:15:39

this is a trap. And man,

1:15:43

I'm gonna have so much fun because I have an

1:15:45

idea for a card deck. I don't even think I've

1:15:47

talked to you about it, but I'm working on it

1:15:49

with Alana and I can't wait

1:15:51

to talk to you about it because this

1:15:53

is gonna be so fun. We have, we

1:15:56

have. Now that Silah's out of the

1:15:58

box, I'm like, you're gonna see. I'm

1:16:00

like on another planet basically. Yeah. So

1:16:03

we're moving into, we're moving into Kairos. We

1:16:05

got to finish our story here. Okay. This

1:16:08

is, this is part of where we were going. So Kairos

1:16:11

is a Greek word for those

1:16:13

of you who don't know the

1:16:15

word it's K-A-I-R-O-S. And

1:16:17

it explains the ineffable timeless

1:16:20

space that we can access

1:16:22

that is outside of

1:16:24

linear time. And

1:16:26

we pulled that as a

1:16:29

destination for ourselves in

1:16:31

this, in this journey that we're taking.

1:16:33

So what's your relationship

1:16:35

with Kairos? Well,

1:16:39

I would say that Kairos time is, I've

1:16:46

come to know it through ceremony basically. Me

1:16:48

too. And through,

1:16:50

you know, any creative

1:16:53

act where like it's full on life

1:16:55

force, like playing the piano

1:16:57

or whatever surfing, you

1:16:59

know, the time is

1:17:02

not what it once seemed

1:17:04

that it was. But

1:17:07

also just thinking about time

1:17:09

as an actual ingredient in

1:17:11

one's life, I think

1:17:13

is really interesting too. If you think of like

1:17:16

just sort of the, the alchemy of one's life,

1:17:19

how, you know, the fire of a

1:17:23

match is so different from

1:17:25

the fires like at the

1:17:27

burning Goths in India that have been burning

1:17:29

since the city was,

1:17:34

since the city was a city. And

1:17:36

the different qualities of that fire because

1:17:38

of time, because of the ingredient of

1:17:41

time. So I

1:17:43

don't have anything so much more

1:17:46

to say about it than that, just

1:17:49

a real curiosity about how it moves

1:17:51

from something that's linear and trackable to

1:17:53

something that is just so beyond,

1:17:57

you know, my perception

1:17:59

really. So the

1:18:03

interesting thing about Kairos is

1:18:05

that if you think of

1:18:07

time, so time was explained to me by Nassim

1:18:10

Hara mine as

1:18:14

the memory of God. Time

1:18:16

is the memory of God. There's no

1:18:18

time without memory. Time is

1:18:21

inherently a story, right?

1:18:23

Like so it weaves something from past,

1:18:25

present, to future. So

1:18:27

we're always in Chronos. That's

1:18:30

the place where we are.

1:18:33

And we can sometimes

1:18:35

lightly touch into Kairos, but the

1:18:37

thing is the moment that it

1:18:39

becomes a memory, it's out of

1:18:42

Kairos itself. So it's like

1:18:45

we can glimpse it from

1:18:47

afar, and sometimes you're actually

1:18:49

in it. For me, it's

1:18:51

almost, it's like very,

1:18:54

very rare that I'm in Kairos except

1:18:56

maybe when I'm sleeping. Like if

1:18:58

I'm asleep, the conscious mind is asleep. I'm in

1:19:00

this timeless time where I once had a dream.

1:19:02

So I guess the closest I would say that

1:19:04

I've gotten to Kairos is actually not psychedelic medicine,

1:19:06

because I almost always am

1:19:09

aware of myself and

1:19:11

the process of the journey. I

1:19:14

mean, I had a wildly large

1:19:17

and strong bufo journey and many people step

1:19:19

into Kairos where they don't remember what happened,

1:19:21

but I remember the whole thing. And

1:19:24

that's, it's an interesting aspect to me.

1:19:26

In my waking mind, it's very difficult

1:19:28

for me to step into Kairos. It's

1:19:31

maybe happened maybe

1:19:33

once or twice where it's just like, I don't

1:19:35

remember. There was a Vilka

1:19:37

experience I had with Don Howard

1:19:39

where I encountered the goddess and

1:19:42

she had a gown made of

1:19:44

stars and she said, this

1:19:48

from beyond this point, you'll remember nothing. And

1:19:51

I go, what? And then

1:19:53

I woke back up from that

1:19:56

experience and I was very

1:19:59

poorly singing. an ikoro of some sort that

1:20:01

kind of came through, but I'm not a

1:20:03

very good singer. Like objectively just not, I

1:20:05

can channel, right? And

1:20:07

she just goes, shh, shh. And I was

1:20:10

like, oh, okay. There was

1:20:12

other people trying to go through their journey and I'm

1:20:14

just belting this song. But in a

1:20:16

dream, in a dream, I remember I had a dream

1:20:19

where I was with my mother's horse

1:20:22

and I was with this horse

1:20:24

Germanicus, which was a Frisian stallion, which I

1:20:27

had a very strong relationship with, not as

1:20:29

strong as my mother's, my mother's horse, but

1:20:32

I'd watch this horse grow up from a young

1:20:34

horse into

1:20:38

a full beautiful black stallion

1:20:41

and ridden it many times and gone

1:20:43

to visit it in the stables. And

1:20:45

I had to dream with Germanicus of

1:20:47

a whole lifetime where we lived, where

1:20:50

we were just on a journey and

1:20:52

journeying through different lands and in

1:20:55

different battles and different situations. I

1:20:57

had a whole lifetime of a

1:20:59

dream and it was probably in

1:21:02

one fraction of one cycle of

1:21:04

sleep that I had

1:21:06

a whole lifetime that I lived

1:21:09

with this horse. And I woke up

1:21:11

from that dream like, holy shit. I

1:21:14

just dreamt a whole lifetime. Wow.

1:21:17

Wow. And that I guess would be

1:21:19

an example of like,

1:21:21

of Kairos. Like what was that?

1:21:23

Yeah. It's like the thing

1:21:26

expands inside. You have a

1:21:28

little micro, you have a minute, a measured amount of time

1:21:30

and then inside of it it goes. Yeah, I mean, it's

1:21:32

probably my eyes were fluttering. I'm in REM for like, yeah,

1:21:34

a couple minutes and then a

1:21:36

lifetime I'm living in the dream world,

1:21:40

beyond time. It's also interesting that

1:21:42

the part of us, while we're

1:21:45

dreaming or the tracker that's there,

1:21:47

knowing time actually, like, my

1:21:52

mom was just visiting me and she had

1:21:54

a dream that

1:21:57

it was like her 50th birthday party and some

1:21:59

lady, something happened. And she's

1:22:01

telling me this dream and we're walking. And in my

1:22:03

mind, I'm like, what happened 50 years ago, you know,

1:22:05

to this day? I'm not going to

1:22:08

trip on my mom. I'm just going to let her have her

1:22:10

own dream process. So we're just walking and walking. She's

1:22:13

like, oh my God, 50 years

1:22:15

ago to yesterday is the

1:22:18

day I married your father. And

1:22:23

I was like, oh my God,

1:22:25

what? What

1:22:27

is the tracker inside of us that

1:22:30

knows that that 50th year is about

1:22:32

to happen and sends the mom

1:22:34

a dream with a 50th

1:22:36

birthday party so

1:22:40

that she can actually go back and

1:22:42

recognize the significance of this day? Like

1:22:44

who is that in the storyline of

1:22:47

our archetypes? The one who's just like,

1:22:49

no matter what we're doing, remembering

1:22:52

a year ago, this occurred 10 years

1:22:54

ago. Even though time in

1:22:56

some ways doesn't exist anyways, but there

1:22:59

is still a measure

1:23:01

that's helping us. And I think it's

1:23:03

the aspect of God that has memory.

1:23:06

And some people call that the Akash, you

1:23:09

know, but as soon as there's movement,

1:23:11

there's memory. The only place without memory

1:23:13

and the only place where Kairos truly

1:23:16

exists is unicity. In

1:23:18

unicity, in absolute unicity,

1:23:20

which is stasis, it's stillness,

1:23:23

because unicity means it's everything. So there's

1:23:25

no differentiation. So nothing can move, nothing

1:23:28

can evolve, nothing can change, nothing can

1:23:30

transform. Not even an atom can spin,

1:23:32

you know, because

1:23:34

it's like it's unicity. There's

1:23:36

no electrons, protons, neutrons. There's

1:23:39

no differentiation. So Kairos

1:23:41

is the pure, it's like the, it's

1:23:44

like the Tao. It's like the sleeping

1:23:46

Tao of unicity, what I call the

1:23:48

force. And I'm writing about my

1:23:50

new book, U-Verse Antia, it's called The Force, it's

1:23:52

the unicity that's behind it that carries no memory.

1:23:55

But at the moment that God has, He

1:23:58

goes conscious and goes, I am. then

1:24:01

memory begins. And I

1:24:03

think so, and as you pointed to, even in my

1:24:05

dream, I dreamed a

1:24:07

dream that contained a Kronos. So

1:24:10

in my Kairos dream, I dreamed

1:24:13

Kronos into my dream. Right?

1:24:20

Now we really have to do Kegels. We're

1:24:23

so far out. We're just like, where are

1:24:25

we? Bring it back,

1:24:27

bring it back. Oh my God. Thank

1:24:30

God there's time. Thank God we

1:24:32

are just right here. Yeah.

1:24:35

Oh my God. Well,

1:24:38

we promised that we would talk a little

1:24:40

bit more about the creative act.

1:24:43

And we've gotten to some of that in

1:24:45

this process and in the storytelling. And also,

1:24:47

first of all, a blessing to you for

1:24:49

making this incredible deck, a deck that can

1:24:52

lead us through this podcast

1:24:54

and open up so many beautiful topics

1:24:56

that we wouldn't have talked about. We

1:24:58

didn't plan that. We didn't go through and shuffle them and say

1:25:00

this is what we're gonna do. And

1:25:04

it allowed us to share so

1:25:06

much, allowed us to share stories

1:25:08

and a poem and different things.

1:25:10

So you've created a technology and

1:25:12

also the purity of

1:25:15

the deck itself and how it was made.

1:25:18

And that's also a very interesting story

1:25:20

because you talked about how not only

1:25:22

is the deck inviting the mystery to

1:25:25

weave through us, capital M mystery, God,

1:25:27

whatever you wanna say. But

1:25:29

actually you used the mystery to

1:25:32

actually help you create the

1:25:35

deck itself. Especially with the archetypes deck,

1:25:37

just to go back to this original

1:25:39

idea of letting God

1:25:41

in. And there

1:25:43

is also this spectrum of control of

1:25:45

the artist. Once you refine your line

1:25:49

and you can draw

1:25:51

whatever, once you can draw

1:25:53

whatever, well, what are you gonna do then? What

1:25:55

are you gonna choose to draw? And

1:25:58

like my teacher suggested like follow. the line and

1:26:00

it's like, well, then I have to walk the

1:26:02

walk to some degree. If I'm going to be

1:26:04

believing in this like divine force that drops in,

1:26:06

at some point I just have

1:26:09

to make the pen available for whatever image

1:26:12

wants to come forward. So a lot

1:26:14

of the practices that I do to

1:26:16

even like see the image is about

1:26:20

letting it be

1:26:22

seen. I mean, this goes into the distinction

1:26:24

between like visionary artist

1:26:26

and psychological

1:26:29

artist, like that Jung defined these

1:26:31

two different types of artists actually. And

1:26:34

a lot of people say visionary, you know,

1:26:36

they use the word a lot, but actually,

1:26:38

if you look at it in his teachings

1:26:40

is really specific and it means that it's

1:26:43

a willingness to let

1:26:45

God as far in to the

1:26:47

equation as possible. So my

1:26:51

practice stretches as far as I

1:26:53

can into that. Like I, you

1:26:56

know, I draw with the mind fold on a

1:26:58

lot. I do nidra and ask for an image.

1:27:00

I'm just like, how far can I go

1:27:02

out of this equation? How

1:27:05

little of me can there be here and

1:27:09

still hold a meaningful image for the

1:27:11

collective? So that was my

1:27:13

ask with this deck. I

1:27:16

made a list of all the different archetypes and

1:27:19

then use pendulum to decide like, you

1:27:21

know, hey, what's the most meaningful names

1:27:24

and descriptive words for these archetypes?

1:27:26

Which one should be here? Which one shouldn't

1:27:28

be? And I followed it

1:27:30

even though it said no hero in this deck.

1:27:33

I mean, that was really hard for me as

1:27:35

like the scholar in me is like, I'm

1:27:38

making an archetypes deck with no hero. It's

1:27:41

like embarrassing. What are they going to think of me? I

1:27:43

don't like, I don't know my hero's journey

1:27:45

myth, you know, but over

1:27:48

and over I'd ask. That's not, that's not the

1:27:50

game actually for right now. And

1:27:52

I think it's more of like a village community,

1:27:55

you know, archetype

1:27:58

that wants to come forward in. in

1:28:00

the place of the hero, but- What

1:28:03

also allows the hero to be embodied

1:28:05

by every archetype? Exactly, because it's in

1:28:07

all of them. There's the heroic aspect

1:28:09

of all. So this

1:28:12

deck really allowed me to experiment with

1:28:15

like, how far can I lean

1:28:18

back and allow as much of

1:28:20

the unknown in as possible. And

1:28:24

that's like, that's my, that's where I

1:28:26

get really stoked as an artist. Most

1:28:28

engaged when I'm

1:28:30

trained and I'm ready to do the thing, but

1:28:32

I'm like barely holding the pen. Yeah,

1:28:35

yeah. It's for

1:28:37

me is, I think poetry is

1:28:39

probably the purest expression of my

1:28:41

art. Obviously speaking and

1:28:43

there's a lot of other ways that my artistic

1:28:46

expression comes out. But for me, it's always been

1:28:48

poetry. It's always been, I've been writing poems since

1:28:50

I was, since I was a kid. Now the

1:28:52

poems when I was a kid are not that

1:28:54

great. But some of them were

1:28:56

actually pretty good. You know, I

1:28:58

remember I got called in, my

1:29:01

parents got called into a meeting with the principal for

1:29:03

my sixth grade class because we had an assignment to

1:29:05

write like a poetic

1:29:08

short story of some sort. And so it was

1:29:10

kind of like a blend of a story and

1:29:12

poetry. And

1:29:14

I wrote something about, wrote

1:29:16

a story about a man

1:29:19

who wanted to kill himself. And

1:29:21

this man was, had a dog sled.

1:29:23

And he just takes the sled out into

1:29:26

the middle of a white out winter storm.

1:29:29

And he like hugs and kisses his

1:29:31

dogs and he lets them free from

1:29:33

the sled. And then he

1:29:35

lays down in the snow and quietly lets

1:29:37

the cold, you know, take away his

1:29:39

last breath of life. And

1:29:43

the principal called in and

1:29:45

was like, I was like, hey, you

1:29:48

can't write your kid's stuff. Like,

1:29:52

this is not, and they're like, we didn't fucking write

1:29:54

that. And then they looked at me like, the fuck

1:29:56

is wrong with this kid? Where did

1:29:58

he come? But I don't know. that came from. What's

1:30:01

wrong with them and they're jealous of you because you

1:30:03

can write better than them. Yeah, totally. So,

1:30:05

but in this poet, I don't know where

1:30:08

that... That sounds so epic. First of all,

1:30:10

where's the winter landscape in your childhood? Or

1:30:13

were you... I mean, I went skiing. I went skiing.

1:30:15

That's like a very epic winter. Yeah, I

1:30:17

think, but also I did read

1:30:20

Call of the Wild, Jack

1:30:22

London, and that was very impactful for

1:30:24

me. That story

1:30:26

of White Fang and what

1:30:30

was the first wolf's name? I

1:30:33

think it was Huck, but he, two

1:30:35

devils, whatever the name of that wolf

1:30:37

is, but I was really fascinated with

1:30:39

this story. And I

1:30:42

think so that also influenced this idea of

1:30:46

those winter times and dog

1:30:48

sleds and that nature. But

1:30:50

where I was getting to is when I'm writing a

1:30:53

poem, oftentimes it feels like

1:30:56

there's a balloon string that comes down

1:30:58

from the muse and comes down from

1:31:00

the heavens. And this balloon string has

1:31:02

maybe just a phrase or

1:31:04

maybe like one little idea. And

1:31:08

if I give it enough attention and I

1:31:10

just keep pulling like the whole balloon, which

1:31:12

is like this helium balloon will come down

1:31:15

and I'll start to be able. And as soon as I get

1:31:17

the first little bit of it, even

1:31:19

if I'm in a hurry and I have to go

1:31:21

or do something else, as long as I've pulled down

1:31:23

enough of the string, I can get back to it

1:31:26

and I can stay with the purity of the

1:31:28

idea. Yeah, and I

1:31:30

think the key word among so many

1:31:32

great words is like the attention. You

1:31:35

said like giving it the attention to pull the

1:31:37

string down and I think that art really is,

1:31:41

it's like the evidence

1:31:43

of the

1:31:45

material evidence of our attention and devotion

1:31:47

to a question or

1:31:50

an image or

1:31:54

whatever the it is that

1:31:57

wants our attention. Like when I walk through the

1:31:59

Met, at some point I was like, whoa,

1:32:02

this is just accumulated

1:32:05

attention. You know,

1:32:08

every painting is like, they're paying attention

1:32:10

to a lemon on a table. You

1:32:13

know, a still life, if you really break that down and

1:32:15

like what's going on, I mean, it's nuts. They're

1:32:18

just like, I'm gonna care about this

1:32:20

curve right here so much, just

1:32:22

weeks, you know, like this matters. And

1:32:25

to say like, this matters, that

1:32:29

consistently until you've completed

1:32:31

the painting is like,

1:32:35

that's very radical. Yeah,

1:32:38

and it reflects something, you know, for me

1:32:40

that I think is a deep, deep spiritual

1:32:42

truth. God cares

1:32:44

about you with

1:32:47

that same level of attention is

1:32:49

like looking at you and going, tell

1:32:52

me your story, sweetheart. Like

1:32:54

tell me your story, tell me every little

1:32:56

bit of your story. And I

1:32:58

think one of the challenges we feel

1:33:00

is our parents don't give us that

1:33:03

attention. And of course

1:33:05

not, they have their own lives and sometimes maybe

1:33:07

they do, but we superimpose

1:33:10

the father to

1:33:12

the capital F father or

1:33:14

the mother, our mother to capital M

1:33:16

mother. And we forget like actually these

1:33:18

are just stand-ins and they're doing their

1:33:21

best, but they're fallible. But actually the

1:33:23

real father cares so

1:33:25

much about your story. It

1:33:28

cares about every little bit. That's the

1:33:30

Hashgaha, that's the divine intention,

1:33:32

like cares so much. Like

1:33:34

that's, and so to care so much

1:33:37

about a lemon is like an image

1:33:39

of how much God cares about us.

1:33:41

And I really believe that to be true. Yeah,

1:33:44

it's so saturated with just

1:33:46

devotion of what is. It's

1:33:50

so beautiful. We've got to get

1:33:52

to the Met. When we have our

1:33:54

school, we'll spend some time looking at the still

1:33:57

life paintings to talk about the lemons. Well,

1:33:59

in this. This

1:34:01

unlocked for me a greater

1:34:04

appreciation of that because I never

1:34:06

connected that. So this idea of

1:34:08

connecting the attention to a still

1:34:10

life. Now I have a whole new,

1:34:12

that's the beautiful thing about art is like, when

1:34:14

you actually go deeper and understand it, it

1:34:18

opens up the pleasure of experiencing

1:34:20

it. Like I

1:34:22

used to smoke cigars, but I knew nothing

1:34:24

about cigars. And then I went and I

1:34:26

spent some time with the real cigar aficionado.

1:34:28

And he talked about how they pack the

1:34:30

tobacco, how they dry the tobacco, which leaves

1:34:32

they use for the wrapper, how they cultivate

1:34:35

it and everything. And it gave me an

1:34:37

understanding. So now when I smoke a cigar,

1:34:40

there's so much more pleasure. Same

1:34:42

with a wine. Like if you really spend

1:34:44

the time to be a Samoya, you actually

1:34:46

can enjoy the pleasure of that wine so

1:34:48

much more than like, oh, this wine's good.

1:34:50

You may not even be able

1:34:52

to discern, but now what you've unlocked for

1:34:54

me is like a new

1:34:56

appreciation and a pleasure for still life paintings,

1:34:59

which I've never really, I've been like, oh,

1:35:01

that's cool. Accurate. Really

1:35:03

looks like a lemon. But now I have

1:35:05

like, oh fuck. No, it

1:35:07

goes back to the shaman in a way,

1:35:10

like thinking about the rattle, the shaman's rattle,

1:35:12

let's say, it's like

1:35:14

accumulated attention that

1:35:17

that rattle contains compared to like the rattle

1:35:19

you'd get from Toys R Us or whatever.

1:35:21

You have two rattles, what's the difference? One

1:35:24

is imbued with a

1:35:27

certain kind of presence just time

1:35:29

after time of focusing on the attention of

1:35:31

the chant and the sound and listening to

1:35:34

the rattle. It's like, I

1:35:37

think our power and our ability to

1:35:39

like actually wake the thing up, wake

1:35:42

the thing up through attention. I

1:35:45

feel like that's the call

1:35:47

of the artist. That's the gift of the

1:35:49

artist, no matter the material. It's

1:35:52

like when you watch an athlete, like it's, it

1:35:55

is awake, you know, the shot is awake.

1:35:57

The line of the ball is. is

1:36:00

awake. And

1:36:03

that's because of like the amount of attention

1:36:05

that's been repeated over and over and over.

1:36:07

And that's what's so like dazzling about it.

1:36:09

It's like, how can the ball move like

1:36:11

that in their hands? Yeah.

1:36:14

And it's the same thing with like a sculptor that

1:36:18

has that dedication to the stone carving

1:36:20

or whatever it is. Yeah,

1:36:23

yeah. So that lesson

1:36:25

of, all right, you wanna be an artist,

1:36:27

great. And it's like Steven Pressfield talks about

1:36:30

really, really well. He's a professional. He has a book

1:36:32

called Turning Pro. And in

1:36:34

this book, Turning Pro, he goes, I

1:36:37

don't know when the muse is going to come and

1:36:39

when I'm going to be able to write my best

1:36:41

work, but I sit my ass in my seat every

1:36:43

morning at 9 a.m. And

1:36:46

the muse knows where to find me. That's

1:36:48

where I'm gonna be. And I'm gonna be writing. And

1:36:51

sometimes she's there and sometimes she's not, but

1:36:53

she knows where to find me. Because every

1:36:55

fucking day, and I'm sure he takes

1:36:57

some days off, but like every fucking day, I'm

1:37:00

there in my seat ready to write. Yeah,

1:37:02

I mean, I don't know why the artist got

1:37:05

this word inspiration and they're all waiting for that.

1:37:07

I mean, imagine if athletes use

1:37:09

that word. Like

1:37:11

what the fuck? Why are we, why did

1:37:13

we do that to ourselves? I'm learning inspiration to practice

1:37:16

my free throws. I'm just not inspired right now. Like

1:37:18

it's just like free throws are just so not my

1:37:20

thing right now. I don't know,

1:37:22

I really feel called to do like more,

1:37:24

just only just whatever they're doing. It just,

1:37:28

why do we buy into that game? I

1:37:30

don't know why. It's heartbreaking to

1:37:32

me. Yeah, and it

1:37:34

prevents us from actually moving

1:37:37

into being the artist that we're here to

1:37:39

be. Everybody

1:37:42

loves ideas of like creative, I'm in

1:37:44

creative block. Okay, well, what do you

1:37:46

do with the block? You just keep

1:37:49

chipping away. You keep chipping

1:37:51

away, keep chipping away. And the block

1:37:53

will either move or you'll break it

1:37:55

up into small pieces that you can

1:37:58

simulate or, and that's. that's

1:38:00

part of the process. It's that diligence

1:38:03

and dedication, such a strong message

1:38:05

that I think you're offering as

1:38:07

such a prolific artist to

1:38:09

get like back to the fundamentals. There's

1:38:12

stories of Kobe Bryant and

1:38:14

people watching him practice. And

1:38:17

the story, and the story comes from Brent Pellow

1:38:19

who went to camp with Kobe to learn

1:38:22

basketball, but Kobe would practice and

1:38:24

have an open practice session. And

1:38:27

he watched him just do a

1:38:29

jab step for an hour

1:38:32

without doing anything else, just jab

1:38:35

step, jab step, jab

1:38:37

step. And it's like, oh,

1:38:40

and then you see like, oh, it's the black mama,

1:38:42

you can do anything, but what is he doing? Just

1:38:44

fundamentals. So cool. Fundamentals.

1:38:46

That's like, that is the, you

1:38:49

know, that's the kind

1:38:51

of first day I wanna be on, just

1:38:53

like the guy who can do that kind

1:38:55

of thing has like the capacity to just

1:38:57

hold that position and like just gonna practice

1:38:59

fundamentals. It's such a big deal. And

1:39:02

then you're in the game and it's like the flow

1:39:04

can occur. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, but like

1:39:07

you have everything kind of at your fingertips

1:39:10

to deal with, you know, the

1:39:12

flow state or not the flow state. And I feel like

1:39:15

we're always kind of chasing this flow

1:39:17

state. Like why? You have to show up

1:39:20

in the sticky, sticky part and

1:39:22

like see what happens. Yeah, absolutely.

1:39:25

All right, so who do you

1:39:28

think, who is the type of person that

1:39:30

creatively fit which you're teaching coming

1:39:32

up for our Malibu summit leading up to that? Who

1:39:34

is it for? Who is it not for? I

1:39:37

would say it's for anyone

1:39:39

that feels a creative plateau,

1:39:44

super good for a creative plateau. Like say

1:39:46

you're been making a lot of things, but

1:39:48

you've just sort of hit this point where you're like, I

1:39:50

kind of know what I make, but I know there's more.

1:39:54

Or if it's been a really long time

1:39:56

since you've like played the guitar or you

1:39:58

haven't really written a poem. but you used

1:40:00

to, like the oh, I used to. And

1:40:06

I would say if there's like a

1:40:08

certain feeling of like fatigue and life

1:40:10

force, that's just like not there. A

1:40:12

lot of times like awakening the creative,

1:40:14

you kind of get back into your

1:40:16

like Shakti, you're like, whoa, I'm alive,

1:40:18

I think I forgot. So

1:40:21

I would say it's especially

1:40:23

good for those types.

1:40:26

Also, if you're like into the mysticism, we're gonna

1:40:28

go deep into the mysticism too. And

1:40:31

the symbols and why certain symbols

1:40:33

move us and dream

1:40:37

work, a little bit of Jungian stuff. Talk

1:40:41

about the artists of shaman. And

1:40:43

then who it's not for, it's

1:40:45

really not for, God,

1:40:48

I wanna say this in like a British accent again, because

1:40:50

I'm uncomfortable saying this, but

1:40:53

it's really not for those who don't have

1:40:55

an open mind. So I'm

1:40:58

more interested in not so much like, how

1:41:00

good can you get at drawing in

1:41:03

this 13 week course? Rather

1:41:05

like, what's the

1:41:07

drawing look like after we do a breath

1:41:09

practice for five minutes? What does that drawing

1:41:11

look like compared to the one you would

1:41:14

have done before? Which is basically coming from

1:41:16

your mind and your ego and is like

1:41:18

that psychological artist that has everything planned. They're

1:41:20

essentially illustrating their ideas, which

1:41:23

is helpful, it's fine. But I

1:41:25

wanna move into the visionary artists,

1:41:27

which means we have to do

1:41:29

practices and learn techniques that are

1:41:32

mostly ancient and helpful for us

1:41:34

to get out of like the

1:41:36

ego space that knows what it

1:41:38

knows and wants to make good

1:41:40

art and needs to know that

1:41:42

it's gonna look good. So

1:41:45

that's what I'm gonna be moving people

1:41:48

into that field. Beautiful.

1:41:50

Well, Kim, it's been

1:41:53

such a pleasure to get to

1:41:55

know you deeper and deeper and

1:41:57

to know to actually have anosis

1:41:59

deep inside. that this ally ship is

1:42:01

going to extend through

1:42:03

Kronos, through Kairos, through

1:42:06

time and lifetime. So. Thank

1:42:08