0:00

ABC Listen, podcasts,

0:02

radio, news, music and

0:04

more. There

0:18

have been two knife attacks within just

0:20

weeks of each other that are being

0:22

linked to terrorism. One at

0:25

a church in Sydney and the other outside

0:27

are bunnings in Perth on the weekend. Both

0:30

involved teenage boys. So

0:32

what's going on? Today,

0:34

investigative reporter Sean Rubenstein

0:36

Dunlop on the radicalisation

0:39

of vulnerable young people and

0:41

where the programmes to stop it are actually

0:43

working. I'm Sam

0:45

Hawley on Gadigal land in Sydney. This

0:48

is ABC News Daily. Sean,

1:00

you've been looking at the background

1:02

of a Sydney teen who was,

1:05

of course, accused of a terrorist

1:07

attack on a bishop at a

1:09

church last month. And now, of

1:11

course, we've had this other teen,

1:13

a boy in Perth, who's been

1:15

shot dead after stabbing

1:17

someone at a bunnings car

1:19

park in Western Australia. A

1:22

teenage boy believed to have been radicalised

1:24

online has been shot dead by WA

1:26

police after stabbing a man in the

1:29

Perth suburb of Willerton. Now,

1:31

these two boys, they're not linked,

1:34

but there are some really eerie

1:36

similarities, aren't there? Yeah, look,

1:38

the similarities between that attack in

1:40

Sydney and the one in Perth

1:43

over the weekend are really striking.

1:46

In both cases, the attacker was

1:48

a 16-year-old boy. They were

1:50

both armed with a knife and

1:52

they were both radicalised by the

1:55

kind of violent extremist ideology which

1:57

is promoted by terrorist groups like...

2:00

Climbing style see we know they

2:02

post been engaging with that on

2:04

line. The boy in Sydney the

2:06

teenager in Sydney's now facing a

2:09

terrorism charge and that could seem

2:11

child's a loss is found guilty

2:13

while the Boeing Curse is now

2:15

dead. But of course the common

2:18

factors between them at have us

2:20

asking if we might be seeing

2:22

the beginning of another wave of

2:24

violent extremism and terrorism. Hear. Me

2:30

as you say because so and I assume

2:32

like we sell was at least a week

2:34

hiatus that they saw as homes attacks were

2:36

a thing of the past, something that we

2:38

dealt with. What? ten years ago? Or sell a.

2:41

So I think what I really

2:43

want to do with you is

2:45

unpacked what might be actually going

2:47

on right now to lead. To.

2:50

They sort of events. It does

2:52

feel all of a sudden like

2:54

with traveled back in time. I

2:56

spent several years covering and investigating

2:59

terrorism in Australia from the rise

3:01

of Islamic State backing twenty fourteen

3:03

and and I fell in around

3:05

twenty nineteen. And it's shocking to

3:08

me that were back in a

3:10

position at were juveniles a carrying

3:12

out attacks like these. But look

3:14

going to that incident in Paris,

3:16

Wi police say the emergency started

3:19

to them around ten o'clock on.

3:21

Saturday nice when a teenager made

3:23

a triple oh cool saying he

3:25

was gonna commit an act of

3:27

extreme violence. Now not long after

3:29

they was a second Aaa call

3:31

from a member of the public

3:33

reporting that a man had been

3:35

stabbed in the car park in

3:37

a bonding store. Now it took

3:39

three minutes sir offices to arrives

3:41

and in that bombings car park

3:44

at they encountered a sixteen year

3:46

old boy. Who they say

3:48

was armed with a large kitchen

3:50

knife at so he lunges at

3:52

police with the nice and he's

3:54

then shot dead. Fortunately though, the

3:57

man who was stabbed in the

3:59

back survived. And he's recovering

4:01

in hospital. And

4:03

so on pretty quickly. It.

4:06

Was revealed that these teenager

4:08

had actually been part of

4:10

a D Radicalization program so

4:12

he was on the radar

4:14

olds or thirties. What? Do

4:17

we know about his beliefs about who

4:19

he is? He. Was

4:21

on the right off for a

4:23

long time. He was a Muslim

4:25

schoolboy of Ross Moink Senior High,

4:28

which is a prestigious public school

4:30

in Perth South, and they were

4:32

indications around two years ago that

4:35

the boy was being radicalised online

4:37

and so at that point two

4:39

years ago, he was putting to

4:41

a program which is designed to

4:44

help people at risk of being

4:46

radicalized by violent extremist ideologies. The

4:48

program is known as countering violent.

4:51

Extremism to try to stop people

4:53

from reaching the point where police

4:55

have to deal with them as

4:57

they did in the bombings car

4:59

park. He was being monitored and

5:01

they were strict rules or he

5:03

was apparently forced to have a

5:05

phone without internet access to keep

5:07

him away from extremists material. and

5:09

he was visited regularly at his

5:11

house by offices. says.

5:13

The to how he is he was

5:15

part of this program T V radicalized

5:18

seen anything like that there are reports

5:20

show and that at one point he

5:22

tried to blow up a toy less.

5:25

At. His school in pit yet

5:27

looked at the program clearly didn't

5:29

work. There was an incident where

5:32

he said of an explosive device

5:34

in the school toilets are really

5:36

dramatic mobile phone videos that has

5:39

emerged. And

5:42

in that video we can hear

5:44

a boy yelling, Get Away. As.

5:46

you hear a blast nobody

5:48

was injured in that incident

5:50

but parents said ross more

5:52

senior high had been becoming

5:54

increasingly concerned about their children's

5:56

safety and also about what

5:58

they see it was his

6:01

influence on other students. They

6:04

raised red flags with the Education

6:06

Department, the WA Education Department and

6:08

the State Education Minister and they're

6:11

now asking if enough was done.

6:13

The Premier

6:16

has said police were unable to

6:19

interfere because the boy hadn't

6:21

committed any crimes at the time his

6:23

minister received a letter from the parents.

6:26

What police are doing is undertaking

6:28

intelligence, contributing to a program to

6:30

assist people with their extremist views

6:32

and where they break the law

6:34

then intervening. Someone has to break

6:36

the law before the police

6:39

can intervene. Let's

6:43

turn now Sean to look a bit more

6:45

at your reporting of the Sydney

6:48

stabbing where the 10-H boy stabbed

6:50

an Assyrian bishop while he was

6:52

giving a sermon. You've

6:54

done a lot of digging around on

6:57

this and I think it will give

6:59

us a better understanding of what's going

7:01

on here. You looked at a number

7:03

of things including at the offender's online

7:06

activity didn't you? I did.

7:08

My investigation has uncovered interactions with

7:10

extremists both online and in Sydney

7:12

and we discovered that in the

7:15

months leading up to the stabbing

7:17

he was interacting

7:19

with extremists online following

7:21

extremist accounts. He

7:24

liked a series of posts

7:26

published on Instagram including videos

7:28

of terrorists like Osama bin

7:30

Laden encouraging followers to die

7:32

for the cause and

7:35

we discovered that just an hour before

7:37

the attack at the church he posted

7:39

an Instagram story calling

7:41

on Muslims to open

7:44

their eyes to so-called disbelievers

7:46

and I'm quoting here, attained

7:48

victory over their enemies. After

7:50

the stabbing police seized the

7:52

boy's phone and discovered he

7:54

was part of a WhatsApp

7:56

group called Brotherhood with

7:58

other teenagers in Sydney

8:01

who expressed sympathies with the

8:03

same violent extremist radical

8:05

cause. And just over a

8:08

week later they actually conducted

8:10

mass raids across Sydney

8:13

and charged six boys

8:15

with terrorism and extremism

8:17

offences. So Sean, a

8:19

number of juveniles have

8:21

since been charged and

8:24

they've been appearing in a Sydney

8:27

Children's Court and a few

8:30

more details have emerged through that process.

8:32

Look, some really fascinating and frankly

8:35

quite alarming allegations have been coming

8:37

out in court over the past

8:39

week or so. I should

8:41

say police said that they cracked

8:44

down on this group, arrested these

8:46

boys, because they were allegedly in

8:48

the early stages of planning another

8:50

terrorist attack. We've been hearing

8:52

messages that were allegedly sent between

8:54

some of the four boys who

8:57

have been charged with preparing

9:00

or planning for a terrorist attack.

9:02

And those messages shared on group

9:04

chats in encrypted apps speak of

9:07

a desire to

9:10

target Jewish people or

9:12

Assyrian people, speak of

9:15

hatred for so-called kufa,

9:17

non-believers and a desire

9:19

to do jihad. So

9:21

there's a long way to go

9:23

in that case. These allegations certainly

9:25

haven't been proven and the courts

9:28

have heard it. It could be at least a year

9:30

or so before any trial begins. Really

9:35

concerning. Now, you also, Sean,

9:38

had an exclusive interview, incredible

9:40

interview with his parents for 7.30

9:42

on ABC TV. What

9:45

did they say about their son?

9:47

Oh, look, as you can expect, my

9:49

interview with the boys' parents was

9:52

a very emotional one for them. You

9:54

know, they sobbed. Like

9:57

My son, the problem is when he gets...

10:00

The angry. He

10:02

he becomes dangerous. But

10:05

his parents insist they some

10:07

is no terrorist police say

10:09

your son carried out a

10:12

terrorist attack. Is

10:14

he a terrorist? Nice know.

10:18

My son is. He

10:21

just and sixteen. How would

10:23

be a thera with my son have

10:26

a problem? And.

10:30

On the he needs help. And.

10:32

Their account of his last

10:34

paints a picture of of

10:36

vulnerable and very violent child

10:38

at with serious anger management

10:41

issues and by the age

10:43

of thirteen his parents say

10:45

he was treated by his

10:47

first psychologist who actually. Recommended.

10:50

A cognitive assessment for for

10:52

autism and that's one of

10:54

the fact is that extremism

10:56

experts say when when we've

10:58

asked them to look at

11:00

at this case that may

11:02

have left him vulnerable to

11:04

radicalize. I send. My.

11:08

Knowledge I say try so radicalize

11:10

others and history would show us

11:13

the steps a day. Targets vulnerable

11:15

paypal and young people's tell me

11:18

shown how has the Muslim community.

11:20

Been reacting to one of the

11:22

as I know that ease of

11:24

really date concerned about a rise

11:27

in islam as idea. The attack

11:29

in Sydney last months and then

11:31

again over the weekend in Paris

11:33

have triggered. Date: distress

11:36

and dismay in the

11:38

muslim community including from

11:40

community leaders who have

11:42

a history of working

11:44

really closely with police

11:46

but i now speaking

11:48

out they concerned sets

11:51

counterterrorism men commit violent

11:53

extremism measures are too

11:55

heavily skewed towards harsh

11:57

law and order measures

12:00

teenagers rather than

12:02

careful grassroots de-radicalisation

12:05

approaches. They're asking

12:07

that police let them in on

12:09

who they believe in the community has

12:11

radicalised so they can do work in

12:14

the community and they believe

12:16

that our law and order

12:18

system isn't taking

12:20

into account serious suspected

12:23

mental health and cognitive

12:25

issues as in the

12:27

case of the Wackley attacker. Now

12:30

police of course would say that their

12:32

priority is to protect the community and

12:34

there's a careful balance here. So

12:37

Sean, what now? How can we

12:40

make sure that this sort of radicalisation

12:42

doesn't take hold any further and that

12:45

we don't get to a point

12:47

where ASIO has to increase the

12:49

current terrorism threat level which is

12:51

at possible at the moment. We

12:53

obviously really need something to happen

12:56

so this doesn't get any worse. That's

12:59

right and people working in this

13:01

space are now asking have we

13:03

learnt anything from what

13:05

was happening with our teenagers

13:08

being involved in violent extremism

13:10

back around ten years ago. There

13:12

are fears now that since

13:15

the war in Gaza broke out

13:17

in particular with a huge number

13:19

of civilian deaths causing outrage

13:22

and upset for many across

13:24

the world. This is

13:26

also aggravated terrorist groups so

13:29

there's really important

13:31

and urgent counter-terrorism policing

13:33

and intelligence work to

13:35

be done here but

13:38

experts in this space and community

13:40

leaders are saying we

13:43

need to do more to stop

13:45

these teenagers from reaching a point

13:48

where they're wielding a knife

13:51

and families like those of The

13:54

16 year old boy in

13:56

Sydney are saying that far

13:58

more could be done to

14:00

them. deal with the sorts

14:03

of mental health issues and

14:05

radicalization issues that there's some

14:07

sized. Soon

14:11

Rubenstein done these, An investigative reporter

14:13

with the Id say you can

14:15

catch his seven thirty report into

14:18

the background of Disney Teenager and

14:20

the full interview. With a child's

14:22

parents own eyes. And

14:25

Sean's investigation is continuing.

14:29

With Spy Bridget Fitzgerald and

14:31

Snow White. Producer.

14:36

Is David you may.

14:38

Say the air in the women

14:41

choose to the alleged. Means

14:44

of the family members. Smoke

14:46

pleaded not guilty. Of

14:49

murder. Mushroom Sales

14:51

podcast on following developments

14:54

and it's Me.